I wish I could say this surprised me. But the Piskies have had a thing for the UN for decades now. Turtle Bay's practically the Episcopal Vatican. My parish used to have a UN flag that it carried in procession from time to time. It's probably been 20 years since we've done but others still do. So it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that people like Swing would be so enthusiastic about this idea. And it's yet another reason to state that whatever does or doesn't happen at the General Convention, the Episcopal Church is deservedly doomed. 2 Corinthians 6:17 and all that.
Christopher Johnson | Homepage | 07.30.03 - 8:14 pm | #

Mark,

It's true that at Assisi the pope didn't say "we're all really saying the same thing."

On the other hand, look at this statement:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_fathe...- assisi_en.html

The pope tells the assembled members from all religions:

"We praise God, the Creator and Lord of the universe, for the gift of life and especially human life . . ."

"Brothers and Sisters gathered here from different parts of the world! Shortly we shall go to the arranged places in order to beg from God the gift of peace for all humanity. "

Certainly the Hindu and Buddhists (even if they were pantheists) present did not believe that life is a gift from God. The god of the Voodo priest cannot give "the gift of peace."
Steve Jackson | 07.30.03 - 8:44 pm | #

And Paul says that the Unknown God of the pagans is the God of the Jews who has become incarnate in Christ. What a heretic.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 07.30.03 - 8:59 pm | #

The fact that the Hindus, Buddhists, Voodooers, etc., came precisely in order to PRAY for peace, gives the lie to Steve's arbitrary a priori.

St. Paul is right. Mark is right. Steve is wrong.
Kevin Miller | Homepage | 07.30.03 - 9:08 pm | #

Mark,

I think you are taking Acts 17:23 out of context. Let's remember that no matter how that passage is to be interpreted, Paul went on to tell the Athenians that they had to "repent." I missed that message in Assisi

I don't think Paul can fairly be interpreted -- taking all his statements in context -- that everyone is really worshipping the same god. I don't think the Roman Catholic church teaches that Hindus and Christians worship the same god.
Steve Jackson | 07.30.03 - 9:11 pm | #

Kevin,

Do you believe that Christians and polytheist Hindus are praying to the same god?
Steve Jackson | 07.30.03 - 9:16 pm | #

Steve:

Right. Which is why there was no common prayer. Which was my original point that you somehow insist on overlooking.

Steve, I fear you are a closet polytheist. You appear to believe that human beings can create other gods by their wills. As a Catholic, I believe there is only one God. I believe I can work together with people of good will and affirm what we have in common while not signing off on those beliefs which are at variance from the Church's. It's only complicated if you want it to be.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 07.30.03 - 9:19 pm | #

Mark,

But if Christians and Hindus don't worship the same god, then why does the pope say:

"Brothers and Sisters gathered here from different parts of the world! Shortly we shall go to the arranged places in order to beg from God the gift of peace for all humanity."

If Hindus want to fight against abortion, I commend them. But I don't think its proper to encourage them to pray to their gods for something. In any event, Paul told the Athenians to repent. I can't find that message at Assisi.

I found this interesting discussion of Acts 17:23 on the web.

http://www.mcmaster.ca/mjtm/4-5.htm
Steve Jackson | 07.30.03 - 9:46 pm | #

Can you show me where the Pope urged anybody to beg from Vishnu, Kali or Astarte the gift of peace for all humanity? Looks to me like he urged people to seek God. If representatives of other religions have two brain cells to rub together, I think they could figure out who a Christian means by the term "God."
Mark Shea | Homepage | 07.30.03 - 9:58 pm | #

Mark,

Yes, the pope urged people to seek God, but he didn't mention to the non-Christians that seeking God might mean renouncing Vishnu, Kali or whatever.

When he says to them: "Let us ask God to open people’s hearts" knowing that they are shortly going to beg from Astarte (or whoever) isn't it possible that the Hindu would think: "the pope thinks we all worship the same god."

I imagine that the Hindus have heard "we all worship the same God" from professing Christians. I have heard Hindus say the same thing.

The pope says: "We have a single goal and a shared intention, but we will pray in different ways, respecting one another’s religious traditions." This sounds awful close to "we are praying to the same God, but in a different way."
Steve Jackson | 07.30.03 - 10:16 pm | #

You seem to be saying that the Pope cannot call people from different traditions to work together for a particular social goal unless he first has a "come to Jesus" rally. You also appear to have an amazing low view of the IQ of the people who were invited to Assisi if you think that leaders of various religious traditions would be completely unaware of who the head of the Catholic Church means when he speaks of God.

Assisi was not intended as an evangelistic meeting, anymore than the meetings surrounding the Church involvement at the Cairo conference. There was a particular item of social work the Church was trying to achieve: opposition to war and work for peace. That's it. That's all. The Pope has, in the billion and one other evangelistic homilies, speeches and talks given all over the world, made it clear to any idiot with two ears, that Jesus is the only savior of the world. The fact that he did not make that the center of discussion on this ocassion means as much as it means if you do not march into your next PTA or board meeting and start issuing calls to repent.

It's always easier to find fault than to do anything constructive, ain't it, Steve?
Mark Shea | Homepage | 07.30.03 - 10:25 pm | #

Mark,

Also, look at what the pope says:

"Shortly we shall go to the arranged places in order to beg from God the gift of peace for all humanity."

Did the pope believe that the Hindus -- in a matter of minutes -- were going to repent of Hinduism and believe in the true God?
Steve Jackson | 07.30.03 - 10:27 pm | #

Who knows? Did Elisha believe that Naaman was going to suddenly abandon belief in his gods when he told him to wash in the Jordan?

The point is that JPII, like Elisha, pointed to the God who is to be prayed to. He bore witness. He can't control the results.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 07.30.03 - 10:33 pm | #

Mark,

When did the pope bear witness to Christ? When did he say that if the non-Christians truly want peace, the must repent and convert?

When the pope did speak about Christ, he said "I turn now in a special way to you, my Christian Brothers and Sisters."

You made the comparison with Acts 17, but in Acts 17 the pagans mocked Paul and got up and left.
Steve Jackson | 07.30.03 - 10:44 pm | #

I think the point Mark is trying to make is that there are many ways to bear witness. It is false to suggest that the only way to bear witness is to tell people they must "repent and convert."

Sometimes quiet example is a more effective way to bear witness. That's all the Pope did at Assisi. I really can't imagine anyone criticising the Pope's actions at Assisi.

Am I missing something?
Joe McFaul | 07.31.03 - 12:45 am | #

On steve's "polytheism" what about Psalm 82?
al | 07.31.03 - 11:12 am | #

When did the pope bear witness to Christ?

By his very presence the Pope bears witness. It is no big secret (DaVinci code notwithstanding) that the Pope professes and believes in the Triune God.

Its like asking when did the President of the US "bear witness" to democracy at the latest economic summit? The Pres of th US, by his very office, professes democracy when he is present at such meetings, even when such meetings are held for other purposes. Likewise with the Pope vis-a-vis the Christian message.
c matt | 07.31.03 - 12:24 pm | #

I suppose by Steve's reasoning, the US cannot work with communist China on resolving the N. Korea nuclear weapons problem until China renounces communism?
c matt | 07.31.03 - 12:26 pm | #

And I suppose the Pres of the US (or whatever rep we send) is not "witnessing" to democracy if in the middle of the talks over N. Korea, the rep does not "preach" democracy to the Chinese rep.
c matt | 07.31.03 - 12:27 pm | #

Mark,

You said: "If representatives of other religions have two brain cells to rub together, I think they could figure out who a Christian means by the term 'God.'"

Most of my Catholic friends (even those with Catholic education) believe that the doctrine of the immaculate conception is the same thing as the Virgin birth. So, don't assume that the Hindus understand what Christians mean by "God."
Steve Jackson | 07.31.03 - 1:11 pm | #

So you *reeeeeeally* think the educated Indians who attended Assisi were unaware that the Pope of Rome means "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" when he spoke of God. Reeeeeeally?

Boy, those dumb ignorant Third Worlders don't know a thing do they? Us White Folk who know nothing of Hinduism are, of course, smart enough to know what a Hindu means by "Vishnu", but we can't expect college educated Indian religious leaders to have a clue what a Christian means by God. White Man's Burden and all that. Can't expect the half savage and half child to be capable of elementary thought processes.

Sheesh.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 07.31.03 - 1:19 pm | #

Mark,

When a Hindu hears the pope say "shortly we shall go to the arranged places in order to beg from God the gift of peace for all humanity" he is likely to believe that the Pope thinks his prayers to Vishnu, or whomever, are really prayers to the God of Christians. The pope didn't limit it to monotheists or Christians.

If someone can be educated in Catholic schools (up to including Notre Dame) as a friend of mine is & still beleive the immaculate conception is really the virgin birth, then it's possible for Hindus to misunderstand the Catholic teaching on God.
Steve Jackson | 07.31.03 - 1:32 pm | #

Right, Steve. Some Catholics get mixed up about two easy-to-confuse doctrines concerning the Blessed Virgin. Why, some of them couldn't even give a snap reply to the question, "Define the Trinitarian circumincession of Divine Persons". So it's an easy leap from there to saying that everybody would assume that the Pope means "Vishnu" when he says "God" despite the fact that for 25 years he's done nothing but preach the God of Israel and insist that in Christ alone is salvation. The fact that some Catholics aren't up on the fine points of their theology can only mean that everybody in the world is likely to assume that when the head of Christendom speaks of "God" he means "Quetzlcoatl". And therefore, in a time of global crisis, it's better for the Pope to sit on his hands and do nothing than to risk this misunderstanding. Indeed, one can argue that Pius XII went too far in helping Jews in WWII since he permitted them to celebrate their liturgies on Church property. It would have been better for them to be incinerated than for the Church to permit this and therefore suggest that Jewish liturgies were the same thing as the Mass and equally salvific.

This tendency of yours to strain at gnats and swallow camels is, my friend, why the Catholic Church continues, despite her many faults, to make an impact for good on the world, while the Picayune Synod (or whatever it is you belong to) hides its tiny light under a bushel for fear that somebody might see it, mistake it for a cold and remote star, misunderstand it, and begin to practice astrology or the worship of heavenly bodies. Better to fail at trying to be a peacemaker than to never try.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 07.31.03 - 1:46 pm | #