Back to the Dark Ages? How, precisely, are we supposed to watch a MOVIE in the Dark Ages? I mean, I look forward to the revival of chain mail in men's fashions as much as the next guy, and would love to back for another degree when the alchemy department is up and running (finally a hard science I don't have to master calculus for), but...did Mel really think ahead here? The Dark Ages could be here before the movie even hits the video stores, and that's where the real profits come in. Maybe he can do the sequel as a pantomime by a touring company...
How about if we all invite a Jewish friend to Good Friday liturgy? And let them hear the part where we include the Jews in our prayers? And let them hear us shout "Crucify Him"?
Sooner or later someone needs to confront them with the fact that their criticisms are also attacking our Scripture and liturgy, and that if their premise were correct, there would be massive pogroms after every Palm Sunday and Good Friday liturgy. I'd like to see a statistical studies indicate an upturn in antiSemitic crimes during Holy Week?
And this kind of hysteria while Palestinian fanatics are blowing Israelis up left and right?
Sheesh.
Has this Catholic-Jewish dialog, that obviously has been sooo successful over the last 20 something or 30 something years, led the Jewish people (I'm sorry it sounds like I am lumping them all together) to think we are going to reject and abandon the Gospel?
As Astronaut Taylor said in one my favorite movies as a kid, "It's a madhouse!!!!".
So, I guess that the Egyptians should protest any further airing of "The Ten Commandments" since it shows the Egyptians in such a bad light.
And aren't there a ton of films showing Germans in large crowds cheering Hitler? Doesn't this justify anti-German sentiments? Should we make all those go away?
There's one quote that's right - this IS the way the Third Reich started. Problem is, it's the Jews that are emulating the Reich's and the Soviet's approach to historical restructuring.
Understandably, American Jews have an emotional response born of suffering among their relatives.
What they say in the matter is necessarily irrational, ergo ignorable--not unlike reparations for the descendants of enslaved Africans.
My attitude: ignore it and sleep easily.
In all empathy and in all respect to the woman who survived the death camps, "this"--the dispute over a film--is *not* how "it"--the Holocaust--"got started." That horrific event got started when a gang of thuggish, murderous ideologues hijacked the German government, outwitted all those clever people who thought they could handle Hitler, and decided to use the apparatus of the State to enslave millions, eradicate religion, and exterminate millions in the name of advancing the Volk.
It did NOT start when a private citizen made a film about the Passion of Christ and some people had not seen the film tried to stop its release.
I don't believe for one minute that this outrage against the Passion is motivated by a real fear of ant-semitism, pogroms, or any violence. It is plain and simply anti-Christian feelings. No less serious or wrong than anti-Semitism. I heard James Dobson this morning on the radio speaking in Montgomery about how it is illegal to read Romans in Canada because it is anti-homosexual. True? Maybe. I don't know. I do believe the people against this movie would like the whole New Testament outlawed, or at least revised to their liking. Mark calls the gay-agiprop types brownshirts. I wouldn't be so insensitive as to associate these censors with the brownshirts. Oops I think I just did indirectly.
The fact is, most Jews are terrified of Christians, down deep and this leads to this sort of irrational hysteria.
When my husband, who is not Jewish, started his career in commercial real estate, he had to go out to the various businesses. Invariably he met a number of Jewish people, and, being British, it was fairly new territory for him. I remember him saying he could tell that many of the Jews he met seemed terrified of non-Jews. Not overtly but he could tell there was a nervousness about them.
It is too simple to merely say "It is simply anti-Christian feelings", because it is more than that. Most of the Jews in the article are very orthodox, insular and you can bet they have no idea about Christianity at all, except what they "inhale from the wider culture" (all apologies to Mark!) They don't study the history most people are exposed to, in their yeshivas, and if you don't believe me take a look at "HasidicRebel
"http://hasidicrebel.blogspot.com/
That would explain the "mob" comment. (Mind you it probably wasn't that big a mob because most people were busy with Pasover....mostly it's the rabble that goes in for watching public executions)
Don't confuse Dov Hikind's crowd with the bulk of secular American Jews, who have a better grasp of history, but still harbor that fear deep inside.
I thought we went back to the Dark Ages with the movies "Priest", "Dogma" and "Stigmata".
The bulk of secular American Jews being represented by Abe Foxman and the ADL? Okay.
Your point Tim?
A couple of years ago, the movie studio Dreamworks SKG (That's Spielberg, Katzenberg and Geffen) released The Prince of Egypt, based on the Book of Exodus. Imagine the outrage if a Christian leader had referred to it as "pornography," the way Rabbi Avi Shafran has libeled The Passion?
Mark,
Do the modern day Jews really think of Mary, Joseph, Jesus, et. all as Jews? I think they don't.
Very parallel(sp) situation to the way mainstream "African-Americans" think about Clarence Thomas. He may look black, but to them he really isn't black - culturally.
Well, Paul, As far as I know they know they were Jews, but beyond what you can pick up from movies and Christmas cards, they don't know much else. My mother thought the Trinity was the Father, the Son and the Virgin Mary.
As for what "the Prince of Egypt" has to do with anything I can only guess. That one ignorant orthodox rabbi used overheated hyperbole doesn't mean a damn thing.
And does the fact that Jewish film execs made an Old Testament cartoon make it a specifically Jewish film? I don't recall that there has ever been a spate of anti Egyptianism after the retelling of the story of the Patriarch Joseph.
JanJan,
"That one ignorant orthodox rabbi used overheated hyperbole doesn't mean a damn thing."
It does mean something when he isn't immediately and roundly condemned by fellow Jews for hurling such a profound insult.
I think JanJan has an important point. You can live cheek by jowl with people from other religious traditions and remain astoundingly ignorant of them.
How many of my readers can tell me the rudiments of Mormon belief? Islam? Chasidic Judaism? A few. Not many.
In the same way it really is possible for Jews to be stunningly clueless about the most elementary aspects of Christian belief. If one feels as much inclination to read the New Testament as a Christian feel to read the Book of Mormon, what else would you expect?
So the only educator on "what Christians believe" for most Jews will be tv. Just as the main educator for most Christians about about "what Jews believe" is likewise. Now: think how many times you've groaned when the media reports on something you *do* know about and gotten it all bollixed up. Assume the same dynamic applies when they tell Christians what Jews believe and Jews what Christians believe.
Rule of thumb: a serious Jew probably knows as much about Christian belief as a Christian knows about the Talmud.
Jan,
Kind of late in responding. Was blogging elsewhere. My point was 'your point was well taken'. There may be a difference between the people in this particular article and
the ADL types. There is just so much anti-Passion ranting and raving out there it all sounds the same. Violence, hatred, blood in the streets, etc. Maybe this Dov Hikind guy has pure motives, in his own mind, in opposing the movie but I don't think Foxman(Foxeman?) does.
Which Jews do you need to hear from exactly? We are not monolithic. Medved's not enough? How about going over to the comments section at Aish.com and seeing what some of the people are saying over there.
The article is in the Washington Post, and I for one would not even have seen it were it not for Mark's blog. One two bit rabbi out of Brooklyn and you need a major apology from "World Jewry"?
Sorry for getting a bit emotional, but I am becoming a Catholic and I am terrified too.
JanJan:
To be clear, that's why I specifically said "a few Jews". I'm not seeing this as a harbinger of how All Jews Everywhere are going to behave.
What may really cause anti-semitsm is the continuous defamation of Christianity by the ADL, "Jewish leaders", and others who continuously stoke fires of hatred to perpetuate their own existence.
Of course, once they stoke the fires, they will blame it all on someone else.
It is too easy to brush this off as bluster from a two-bit rabbi. Dov Hikind is a NY State Assemblyman too, and NY state has been pushing laws of late are arguably targeting Catholic institutions. I believe a more recent one involved Catholic hospitals are state requirements regarding abortion, contraception.....
This is anti-Christian bigotry pure and simple. I have never seen violence against Jews by Christians in my lifetime. If people are truly worried about violence against Jews they should look at the Middle East and Europe where there is plenty of it-committed by non-Christians of course. I can't wait to see this movie 10 times and hope it is very successful.
"It is too easy to brush this off as bluster from a two-bit rabbi. Dov Hikind is a NY State Assemblyman too, and NY state has been pushing laws of late are arguably targeting Catholic institutions."
And it's all due to Dov Hikind's huge influence and clout, I'm sure.
c.matt you may have a point, but heaven help those who use that as an axcuse.
And Long Islander, it is all too easy to say that Antisemitism in Europe is all due to non Christian outsiders.
This all makes me very sad and disgusted. I think that many in the Jewish community are acting similarly to the way the Black community did during the O.J. trial.
But what makes me sadder is how ready some people are to make a fist and say "now look what you made me do, it's all your fault for opening up your big mouth"
JanJan,
There have been no balled up fists on this blog. Geez, can anyone ever criticize anything that is done by anyone Jewish without drawing these oblique references to Kristalnacht? At the risk of being accused of God knows what, I'll restate my original point: Rabbi Avi Shafran, of Agaduth Israel, should have been renounced by fellow Jewish leaders for labeling The Passion as "pornography."
Mark G, I will reiterate my point which is that most of the "leadership" in the Jewish community probably doesn't even know about this particular statement, has never heard of this rabbi and would, I am certain, distance themselves from a stupid comment like that.
The Jewish community is not centralized, does not have a system of bishops and heirarchy like the church, so there is no "chain of cammand". I just want you to clarify just which important Jews you need an apology from to make it count.
I entered this thread because I wanted to offer an explanation of where some of this reaction is coming from.
Personally, I am looking forward to the movie, but I am also fearful that as a result of all this bitterness, some bad things will happen.
I don't think groups like the ADL "stoke the fires of hatred to perpetuate their own existence, and then blame it on someone else" as someone here has stated. Is there over reaction in groups like the ADL? Yes. Is there a veiled threat in a comment like that?
You have to be very hardened not to see it.
JanJan, your comment regarding the idea that deep down, Jews are terrified of Christians strikes a chord with me. Not only are they terrified of Christians, they shrink from anything Christian-tinged. I lived in Brookyn, I know from Jews. And yes, there are far too many subsets to stick them under one umbrella, but when my family got involved in real estate, a good agent always knew what kind of house Jews buy. Modern. They generally aren't interested in colonial homes and won't even go see a Tudor - far too Christian in design. They eschew traditional art, as it's greatness is deeply rooted in Christianity. Their homes have, with rare exceptions, at least one room decorated in blue and white and at least one hideous modern art monstrosity. A building being built by some ultra-orthodox Jews was being remodeled b/c the windows, which weren't defective and were perfectly functioning had to be removed b/c the wood between the small panes of glass created a cross-shape where the wood intersected. This is a true story.
LOL KH You are so right! My mother sees crosses where there absolutely aren't any. And my parents DO have an utterly abysmal painting in their home which they paid far too much for! The blue and white room? Thats a new one but I'm sure you're right.
And yes, Modern Modern Modern. Here in the Boston area, if you want a contemporary style house you move to Sharon, a primarily Jewish suburb (which is also , oddly, the location of the big Islamic center...)
JanJan,
The outrage some of us feel over mainstream Jewish reaction to The Passion should be interpreted not as a sign of nascent anti-Semitism, but as a marker of precisely how much respect and affection we have for our Jewish brothers and sisters. Quite simply, many of us have been surprised and hurt at the reaction among people we consider friends and spiritual cousins, especially the Orthodox. Anti-semites couldn't be surprised, and they wouldn't be hurt, by a reaction they would consider perfectly normal by people they despise.
A personal case in point: Over the years I have made donations and sent numerous notes of support to Binyamin L. Jolkovsky, the genius behind Jewish World Review, one of my favorite Web sites. I have particularly enjoyed JWR's Torah and Jewish Living sections, and through them have gained significant spiritual insight into my own Catholic tradition, built as it is on the bedrock of Torah Judaism. Rabbi Shafran is one of Binjamin's regular contributors. When I lodged a complaint with JWR about Shafran's outrageous comments, my email was met with silence, and Jolkovsky has yet to repudiate Shafran's sentiments. Perhaps that's understandable from a Jewish point of view, but it leaves his Christian friends feeling let down.
The argument that because Judaism is decentralized there is no responsibility among Jewish leaders to repudiate irresponsible remarks doesn't wash. In its broader, non-Catholic context Christianity is also decentralized, and yet when goofballs like Falwell or Robertson say stupid things, many Christian leaders step forward to repudiate their remarks, if only to make the case that not all Christians agree with them. The near-unanimity of silence among Jewish leaders regarding irresponsible denunciations of The Passion suggests a general agreement with them. To those, like me, who consider ourselves staunch anti-antisemites, that silence is hurtful.
Well Mark, I certainly am not in a position to speak for Binyamin Jalkovsky or anyone else. In his case I can only suppose the story appeared on Friday and today is the Sabbath. Maybe you will see some commentary on this at the beginning of the week.
My only point in all this was to advise people not to jump to conclusions.
Have to tell this story. It's kind of long. Sorry. I was giving a co-worker who lives in my neighborhood a ride home Friday. She and her husband both work at my place of employment. Sometimes one or the other will have to stay late or leave early and the other needs a ride. Oh I forgot to say they are Russian Jewish immigrants. Actually she converted but I found out Friday that she is still an atheist. Go figure.
We talked about the usual stuff, work, kids, kids sports. Well the topic of movies came up. She and her family had seen the same movie my wife and I saw the previous weekend. The League of Extraordinarily Boring Gentlemen. We talked about the horrible previews before the film and how most movies are awful. I couldn't resist asking if she had an opinion about The Passion. She did not know what I was talking but had seen Jesus Christ Superstar. Well she said she was shocked at how badly King Herod was portrayed. She talked about Russia and anti-semitism in Europe. It was a very interesting conversation. I tried my best to present the Catholic teaching that all of mankind is responsible for Christ's death. She did seem somewhat uneasy. I did make the point that that wanting us Christians to compromise our Sacred Scripture to placate Jewish people would be like asking Jews to compromise the story of Exodus to placate Egyptians. She had no idea what I was talking about. That is about the time I found out she was still an atheist. Not really up on scripture. She seemed really uneasy about religion and said she respected everyones views and thought everyone should do likewise. I apologized to her in the event I had upset her. Anyway I thought the whole episode facinating, especially the atheist part, in light of all the bloggng on the subject Friday.
Trick for us as Christians is not to become embittered by the hate which is motivated by fear but encouraged to greater love by the Passion of the one who alone removes all fear. Have faith in Him who is love and we can act in love and our actions can ensure that the film delivers the correct message both on screen and in the hearts of men and women. Let them know us by our love for all and most especially the Chosen ones of God: the Jews.
Anonymous,
Those were the best words written in this thread, and a very timely corrective to my own self-centered sense of disappointment. Thanks.
Anonymous, may your words go from this comments box to HaShem's Divine E-Server!
JanJan, You future Hebrew Catholic totally cool person you! Thanks for the nice things you said about my little one.
The thing that should be comunicated to the Jews is that toleration of anti-Christian aditudes in their own ranks only serves to embolden real anti-Semites.
Anti-Semites will use anti-Christian sentiments among some Jews to try & say "Ya see! What have we told you all along! The Jews are just no good! They are all out to get us".
Of course logically we know such people are shmucks & wrong. But I'm worried emotional people will start to take these charges levited by real anti-Semites seriously.
Bigots of all stripes are unreasonable, nasty, uncharitable as well as just not plain likeable.
We should respond to the anti-Christianity among some radical Jewish persons Charitably, loudly, lovingly & firmly.
Speak the truth in love.
1) Challenge them on their lack of knowlege of Catholic Christian doctine (use examples of the anti-Semities' profound ignorance of Judaism & the Talmud).
2) Ask them "Why should the Passion incite violence toward Jews & not Italians?"
3) Ask them why Shindler's List doesn't incite violence against Germans?
4) How is it other Jews have seen the film & found nothing wrong with it?
5) Why should your "view" of the film be accepted as (if you'll pardon the pun Gospel) over the Jews who have seen & praised the film?
Be Chariteble but firm. That's the Catholic way.
Go Scott!
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