The whole thing couldn't have been more scripted if they'd tried. It was a deliberate act of cultural aggression foisted on us in the public square by exhibitionists eager to "push the envelope" who then say, "Stop looking at us! Why are you meddling with our privacy!"
Exactly, Mark. That's what the Empty-V has been ever since it went on the air. As it moved away from a 24-hour video channel to a soft-core porn channel, the exhibitionism has increased exponentially. I guess that was to be expected. I remember videos when the "artists" kept their clothes on & most people I knew felt really pretty squishy about the ones that pushed the risque envelope in that way. But now Empty-V is just a venue for the free sex, gay, & liberal agendas support groups to attack our youth with this sort of dookie. The only one they still can't get away with is the pro-drug thing - but it's on its way, I'm sure. And they want their viewers to believe that Empty-V reflects the beliefs of the masses, their finger on the pulse. More like a dagger on the carotid.
The only one they still can't get away with is the pro-drug thing There are plenty of videos glorifying drug use; mostly rap videos, but there's a fair number of rock videos that do the same. But then, you have to go to MTV2 nowadays to see actual music videos, so I guess you could technically say MTV isn't pro-drug.
We've disagreed on some things lately Mark, but on this I agree with you 100%. Casual lesbianism, hipness, an "aren't we progressive" type of attitude, pushing the cultural envelope, breaking down the taboos, a new culture mindset. The coming thing. Make way for us. What are you gonna do about it. Get with the program, stodgy.
It's repulsive. There's an arrogance behind it. No more boundaries.
And I think a lot less of Drudge now. He didn't have to show that picture. He purports to decry it, but he still shows the picture. It's trying to have it both ways. He's basically a huckster, a carnival barker. Conservative my foot.
Mark, I think we're beyond "if you don't like it, turn it off." We're to the point now where you're accused of a hate crime if you follow that advice. For example, lesbian groups blasted the WNBA a couple of years back for not glorifying their "lifestyle." Mind you, the WNBA said nothing disparaging to lesbians, and to my knowledge didn't try to restrict the "public displays of affection," they just didn't make a point of highlighting them on arena scoreboards or hosting special nights in their honor. This was enough to draw the ire of the gay agitprop crowd.
And let's not forget that Judge Pryor's attempts to "turn it off" by rescheduling a planned family trip during Disney's Gay Day is now having him depicted as unfit to hold federal office. No, they won't be happy until everybody is assimilated; resistors can easily be "re-educated."
I guess I don't understand the "news" of this event. Didn't the Rosanne Barr girl-girl kiss happen 10 years ago? The kisses show just how desperate this gaggle of has-been hens are; they are imitating something that's been going on in movies, tv shows and videos for quite a while. If your only trick left is to imitate others maybe its time to realize you aren't trendy anymore and just creep into the shadows, but this is wishful thinking on my part.
BTW, how many dudes (or duds)are presetting their VCRs for next year's VMAs hoping to see another shocking moment? These types really need to get out and establish a life of their own.
I've heard Madonna and Christina Aguilera were both Catholic at one point.
BTW Mark, I've done you the *favor* of condensing down one of your fav sayings to:
SMACTDVAISYACTHC or "SMAC" in the short version, which seems rather appropriate to me....
As a young single male, I find these three pop-tarts amazingly boring and amazingly un-sexy. I watched the perfomance and simply yawned.
By musical contrast, for example, I found Shania Twain's recent TV concert special to be very fun and entertaining. Ms. Twain is much more attractive fully clothed than MadBritTina are half-naked. And the only ones receiving Shania's kisses are her husband and her child. Now THAT is sexy.
Madonna grew up Catholic; she is, in fact, mentioned as part of the diversity in Catholicism in The Complete Idiot's Guide to Catholicism, which neatly encapsulates the reason I disrecommend that book.
Don't know about Britney.
I've got some comments over in my blog: It's an agenda of de-sensitizing people to these images -- making public expression of affection between lesbians mainstream -- playing with the heads of teens who are trying to figure out what the "bounds" are. Think Ricky Martin kissing Billy Joel.
You'll thank me later for letting that image enter your brain.
Patrick, you SOB. 
Stephen -
Yes, you make my point more succinctly. While there may be drug use in various videos, being most prominent in rap, it's still not officially sanctioned by the Empty-V programmers. Not in the way promiscuous sex, ultra-liberal politics, & the homosexual "lifestyle" are currently.
And I do agree that we are beyone the "if you don't like it, turn it off" stage. The agitprop (I originally typed "agitpoop" - is the cigar just a cigar, Sigmond?) has worked. Look at the accliam The Hours has received by basically every major critic & spilled over to the Oscars. Network TV will be the last to fall but it's already begun with shows like Will & Grace. And I guess there's a show on this fall dealing with a guy who's parents are Catholic & he's in a relationship with a girl with two "dads". Don't know what it's called - a friend told me about 'cause I don't have cable. Yeah, who do you think is going to be on the winning end of the agitprop in that show? It's all becomming . . . well, if not accepted, there's at least a, like Mark wrote, hip & cool, trendy aspect to it all. Makes me wonder how Empty-V is gonna sell the pro-drug thing, though. It's gotta be coming at some point 'cause it they can sell us the rest of it, can that be far off?
Here's a sweeter "First Kiss" story that might do something to clean out the annoying one:
http://
seattletimes.nwsource.com...030_kiss29.html
Oooh! Patrick! I coulda gone a lifetime without that particular visual...
BrianT - You make me almost want to like country. I'll probably wait for "Shania Twain's Greatest Bluegrass Hits" though. And I really like your amalgam "MadBriTina". That's classic.
Making lesbianism hip (the last 10 years or so):
1. Frequent lesbian jokes and references on "Friends".
2. The Calista Flockhart/Lucy Liu kiss on Ally McBeal (1999).
3. The Rosanne Barr thing that ken mentioned above (1992? 3?)
4. The Tastes Great/Less Filling girlfight beer commericial.
5. The movie "Wild Things" with Neve Campbell and Denise Richards. (199
6. The movie "Bound" with Jennifer Tilly and Gina Gershon. (1996)
7. "The Hours", which had three--count 'em--three lesbian kisses. (I actually liked "The Hours" overall.)
8. "Frida" with Selma Hayek (2002). It had three lesbian scenes.
So Justin and N'Sync were really singing Bi-Bi and not Bye-Bye? I couldn't resist.
I'm surprised you guys didn't get the message the gals were trying to convey. (m)adonna was merely "passing the batton" of cultural raunch to the younger generation. (The actuall batton is very small and it was held under madonna's tounge - until last night.)
I think my wife summed it up best. I said "honey, there is a picture of madonna french kissing Britany Spears on the Drudgereport." Her reply was, "oh you mean the old slut and the new slut?"
Precisely.
Excuse me, but isn't this a bit like that cartoon Mark was talking about where the guy says, "If they change one more thing, just ONE more thing.."
The culture has been in the gutter when it comes to sex ever since the 1960s. So the kiss is not really news and not even that interesting. Let's not get so worked up over homo-sex that we forget that good old fashioned heterosexual unchastity is a bigger threat to our youth and our salvation than anything the alternative lifestyles crowd can muster. In most cases all the homo-sex will provoke is voyeuristic curiosity, but it is pretty much accepted in our culture as a given that a man and a woman (or a boy and a girl) in love will have sex. This is not to disagree with what folks are saying, but to point out that the pop-tarts don't simply become a problem at the point when they kiss. It was the culture that put them on stage in the first place.
Here's a question for the ladies:
Are women as disgusted by the sight of women kissing, as men are by the sight of men kissing?
As Patrick commented above, the image of Billy Joel and Ricky Martin...well let's just say it makes my skin crawl.
Do women feel that way about Madonna and Britney?
Sometimes I get the impression--I could be totally wrong--that women are less bothered by woman/woman stuff than men are by man/man stuff.
WRY, true. But the water temperature in the pot has been raised another degree, and the frog still hasn't jumped.
Actually, you've got to respect Christina Aguilera for breaking Madonna's record of Youngest Woman to Turn Into An Official Skank.
Heh, I saw the photo on the Drudge site this morning and thought, well, nothing will top that today. Then I opened up the ragsheet of a supposed newspaper we get around here and found a lengthy article, with photos of course, entitled "Evolution of a Drag Queen."
You just can't escape it anymore.
lol mike. Someone told me they once saw Christina Aquilera gathering her back up dancers together for a prayer before a "performance". I wonder if she did that with Madonna and Britney?
And btw, the sleaze factor here is upgraded by 10 as we've now entered not only the mainstreaming of porn, but the mainstreaming of kiddie porn
Christine's lovely morning experience (I'm sorry for you, I truly am!) & WRY's comments only prove that we just can't "turn it off" anymore. Sad, scary, & frightening.
Prey can be spelled more than one way!
On the bright side, the fact that I/we are still able to be shocked, offended, disturbed and generally grossed out, indicates that we have not become completely numb -- yet.
BTW - I've seen previews of the new TV sitcom about the funny (I use that term generously) culture clash between the girl from the two-dad "family" and the guy with the Irish Catholic Republican parents. Thankfully, the show looks really stoooopid -- clearly just an attempt to capitalize on the popularity of Will and Grace (which, unfortunately, isn't stupid, just immoral). But, of course, you are right -- guess who is made to look the buffoon? Now there's a hard call. Funny how so-called independent thinkers aren't even interesting anymore.
My wife and I have two daughters 10 & 7,and a son 3. We are pulling the plug on the TV. No more cable. That 40 dollars will be better spent buying 12 hours of Catholic School. Do the math. This won't fix the culture but it might wean my daughters off of the new underage pop tart on the horizon. Hillary Duff of Lizzy McGuire on the Disney Channel. She is making the jump from Disney to MTV. She introduced a duo called Tatoo(Russian lezbo's ) whose song at the last MTV pervfest ended with an army of young girls in plaid skirts pairing up and kissing. Bill O'reilly did a segment on it. I think Duff is 15. If only 10 or 15% of the populace would turn off the cable the powers that be might take notice.
It is seriously time to break out Abraham's wilt-thou-destroy-the-place prayer of intercession. Our first decade of the new millennium and it's turning out to be the Decade of Madness.
If a tree falls over in the forest, does it make a sound?
If one doesn't watch TV, are the effects of TV still felt?
I wonder if there is nothing much we can do about the culture except secede. Turn it off. Don't give it money. I say this from having once been on the other side of the fence: the people behind this decadence enjoy the fact that people like us don't like it, and that really makes them laugh at us with great merriment. So the more outraged you are the more they get out of it. This is an old trend - its called "shocking the bourgeoise." It explains why people will form lines around the block to look at a dung madonna when they would have ignored it had religious leaders kept silent.
And there's an old saying: Never get into a fight with a pig: You only get dirty and the pig *likes* it.
The answer - or part of it: form communities of the home centered on Christ.
Is this too defeatist?
Sorry, my post wasn't so great it had to be posted twice!
No wonder teens are so confused today. MTV plays countless PSAs on "safe sex", don't smoke, don't do drugs during shows which are glorifying those very activities. Then sexually immature teens view three hetero? woman engaging in homo? activity.
I read a secular article sometime back about more teen girls experimenting with lesbianism. The line of thought for some of the girls was,"i'm not gay, but sometimes its fun"? Paglia also wrote an article years ago about liberal female friends wanted to have lesbian relationships just to say they did it. What does that tell you about society?
Anyone who uses MSN Messenger for instant messaging today is greeted by a picture of Madonna and Ms. Spears about to lock lips. That's the same service used by just about every kid over the age of 10 these days.
If one moves away from a toxic dump will the dump still cause cancer? Yes, if someone is around to breathe the air. But if I move my family at least our odds of getting cancer are a lot less. There is always the option of embracing real culture and not the toxic junk that makes up 99% of TV. BTW our cable doesn't come with EWTN. Just those nutty Word of Faith Loonies on TBN.
. . . ditto for AOL Instant Messenger.
Kath - From the Hollywood perspective, is it independent thought if you're not thinking their way?
WRY - No, I don't belive your thinking is defeatist. A grass roots movement may be the best way to being change in a culture that is being - against its will, I think, - indoctrinated to false truths. Too much power has been given to those who think they're promoting cultural improvement. Who gives them that power? We do. So when do we start to take it back?
$0.03
I don't think we are dealing with "Homo"sexuality, anymore than we are dealing with "Hyper"sexuality.
Brass tacks folks - MTV is all about lighting up the libido. There is only one reason anyone watches trash like MTV - they want a little ambiance before they start doing the one-handed disco.
The line of thought for some of the girls was,"i'm not gay, but sometimes its fun"? Paglia also wrote an article years ago about liberal female friends wanted to have lesbian relationships just to say they did it. What does that tell you about society?
That it's obviously all genetic.
Life is genetic. Sex is behavioral.
Like it or not, MTV and the other purveyors of cultural rubbish are the cultural face we present to the world.
Are we really surprised, therefore, that Islamist Warriors of God think that such decadence and depravity--held up as liberation--is a sure indicator that the West is ready to fall?
And wasn't Christ's message the most radical & subversive in history? I mean considering it is ultimate Truth. Seems folks are way too ready to accept false truths like those we've been discussing here. Why? I don't know. Maybe it's because they've been scolded that they must be politically correct or they're intollerant. Who wants to be branded with that these days? The rallying cry of the 90's was "Can't we all just get along?" Can someone tell me when, in all of history, everybody just all got along? The false truths they're selling - at the very high cost of human souls - are so very thin as to be vapor, but they're still bought & perpetuated.
Yikes. This is a kinda bummer. I need a nap. Hey, waitiminit! It's Friday. I gotta go be happy for a while!
Maybe seminaries should advertise for candidates on MTV, huh Paul?
On a lighter note, this reminds me of what Groucho Marx said about TV: "They say television is very educational. I agree. Every time, I think about television, I pick up a good book."
If you increase the dosage every day, you can avoid the hangover.
Gene -- Funny guy. I won't bother to imagine what a Hollywoodish conception of what "independent thought" really boils down to -- mainly because their concept of it is so incredibly boring. What would they make of the following (obviously non-independent, brainwashed) view of the world (somehow I think we would see heads actually exploding). . .
"People have fallen into a foolish habit of speaking of orthodoxy as something heavy, humdrum, and safe. There never was anything so perilous or so exciting as orthodoxy. It was sanity: and to be sane is more dramatic than to be mad . . . The orthodox Church never took the tame course or accepted the conventions; the orthodox Church was never respectable . . . It is easy to be a madman: it is easy to be a heretic. It is always easy to let the age have its head; the difficult thing is to keep one's own. It is always easy to be a modernist; as it is easy to be a snob . . . It is always simple to fall; there are an infinity of angles at which one falls, only one at which one stands. To have fallen into any one of the fads from Gnosticism to Christian Science would indeed have been obvious and tame. But to avoid them all has been one whirling adventure; and in my vision the heavenly chariot flies thundering through the ages, the dull heresies sprawling and prostrate, the wild truth reeling but erect."
Yes, Kath, boring; & trite, I might add. Couldn't agree more. Was that Chesterton? It sounds a bit too modern to be him. Excellent, no matter who. Thanks.
SEB- Thank you. I now have a new favorite Groucho quote! Kind of goes hand-in-hand with Kath's point, too. When we realize it for what it really is, what our society generally regards as entertainment, it's time to do something more productive.
Yup -- funny how timeless he is. Could be because his Topic is timeless.
http://windsor.blog-city.com/rea...read/
205130.htm
I got so hacked about this I've started blogging again!
Mark Windsor: good blog. One suggestion: take Drudge off your blogroll. He's no better, and part of the problem.
Not a bad idea...
Tim - I wish I could convince my husband to pull the plug on cable. After a summer of being initiated into Disney tv and others, I'm really bothered by the way they sneak commercials and short video clips into the programming that are always a notch above the maturity level of the current viewing audience. I had my 5-year-old daughter begging me for a CD of kiddie versions of pop diva tunes that she saw during a Nick Jr. show. And I hate the current trend of every girl character in tv and movies being a "talented" pop diva in her spare time as in "Freaky Friday" and "The Cheetah Girls". My 11-year-old is beginning to think that all success comes from becoming a gyrating pop diva star. And don't even get me started on the slutty fat-lipped Bratz dolls and Mattel's token competition, the Flavas. Arrgh! I'm choking on pop culture.
Say Rich, if you want IM without the ad garbage, head on over to http://www.trillian.com and use Trillian instead. No ads, and it works with AOL, MSN, ICQ, IRC, and Yahoo all at the same time. What I've done is have it reject any IMs from anyone not on my friends and family list, which eliminates IM spam.
What galls me is that TV programming that you thought always would be "family safe"--i.e., sports, like football--has been rendered much less so by the "short-attention-span theater" of advertisements, like that beer ad with the girls wrestling, and the promos for the networks' shows (none of which are appropriate for younger children).
Nancy - just wait till they discover neo-pets. I'm not even going to try an explain.
Nancy M-- Fight the talent-deprived divas and their relentless marketing machine with Kate Rusby, an Englishwoman with voice like an angel who sings traditional UK/US songs. She is quite pretty and not at all "slutty." Connie Dover works well, too. Best thing: my children think both are great.
Ok, one last post: Yes, MTV and all its programming is revolting and vile when it's not downright stupid. But it spikes the hilarity meter whenever I see its "journalists" talking to the alleged artists--and taking them sooooo seriously.
Mammon is a cruel and demanding god. Just leave your self-respect at the door when you come to work for MTV.
And one more quote to think of whenever you hear or read the term, "recording artist": "Probably at no time in human history have so many people called themselves artists but so little real art been produced." -- Auberon Waugh (son of Evelyn)
SEB - Again with the sweet quotes! Very nice. And very correct.
And I whole-heartedly endorse Kate Rusby as well! (So great to see her mentioned.) Also, check out any of the recordings made by the members of Nickel Creek. These folks are artists!
SEB, again, if you like Kate Rusby get into The Crooked Jades. Same sort of stuff from an American POV.
SEB's right, folks. If we support the truly tallented musicians, those who aren't selling the false truths of MadBriTina, and if we get rid of the TV's - believe me it's hard - the message will get through!
The envelope broke a long time ago.
I wrote some further comments on this event in my blog www.crossandcrown.blogspot.com
Bottom line: Hollywood and the liberal media are trying to make homosexuality mainstream, with some success.
I may be wrong, but I believe that there is a disproportionate number of homosexuals in the entertainment industry, particularly among writers and actors/actresses. They are in positions to push their agendas. If there were more like Mel Gibson, then I'm sure the entertainment scene would be very different.
The fact is, in most parts of this country homosexuality isn't mainstream. Not even close. The more the public sees it, the more desensitized to it they become. I fear for the children and teens who are growing up in this atmosphere, especially those without the proper parental guidance to help them understand and keep perspective.
Catholics make up 23% of the U.S. population. How come we don't see 23% of the characters and personalities in the media living a Catholic lifestyle? Ever see a crucifix hanging on the wall of a sitcom set? I see them on prominent though tasteful display in almost every Catholic home I visit.
How about Hispanics? They are a huge minority in our country, and aside from "The George Lopez Show" (which I enjoy a great deal), they are practically non-existent in mainstream entertainment.
For the record, I am one of those Irish-Catholic, Republicans that are grumbled about on the promo for that new show. I'm also a white male. I sometimes feel like I am the one who is out-of-step with the mainstream when I watch TV. Thankfully, God has given me strong convictions and tightly-held principles.
Geoff [Horton], Britney Spears is [was raised] Baptist. Until a year or two ago she was publicly proclaiming her virginity, despite her chosen style of dress.
Tori Amos' father was a Methodist minister. To give Ms Amos credit, while her lyrics are usually angry her public persona is not in the same league as Britney, Muttona, Aguilairhead, et al.
Can't you just hear the song by the Who in the background, Won't Get Fooled Again, but with a slight change in the lyrics?
"Meet the new slut, same as the old slut."
Mark W. - My kids have discovered neo-pets. No explanation needed! Our one and only neo-pet was last seen trapped under a glass where I believe it has fallen asleep, hopefully never to be heard chirping at us again!
SEB - Thanks for the heads-up on the decent singers vs. the trash divas.
Wait, please tell me, what's the problem with neo-pets? Nothing yet, I hope? Anyway, regarding kids and pop culture, I've managed the tv problem by limiting one pre-chosen show that I OK. But you're right, the ads are getting sleazier. Am I really going to have to tape them and fast-forward the commercials? The movie problem is almost as bad. What do you parents do when your kids get invited to a movie? PG-13 is what R used to be. And my 12 yr old is probably the only one in his class that hasn't seen an R movie.
Its sick and Madonna and others are trying to capitalize on the new homosexuality fads. One as revealed on an Oprah show that shocked me last week---the sexuality of young women---was that young women in their 20s today in some niches of some society practice lesbianism while saying they are heterosexual. This seems to be the newest thing hitting the clubs. Almost a fad of sort. Kind of a more extreme vision of college aged "lip-stick lesbians". It is disgusting and shows more and more how culture has lost the plot and moved away from God.
Playing at lesbianism has been a fad at elite colleges for quite a few years, a followup to the "political lesbians" of the '70s.
Someone asked how women feel about lesbian behavior. Speaking for myself, I find it profoundly disgusting. I once had a bad experience of being grabbed and slobbered over by a woman who had declared her interest in "sampling my charms." She was bi or playing at it--her husband just stood there chuckling at the display.
I've never seen MTV in my life but the offensive clip wound up on our local evening news. Mark is quite right, you can't get away from ugly commercials or ads for shows you wouldn't watch or for that matter the magazine at the supermarket checkout.
Before Madonna repudiated the Church to become a Kabbalist, she's the one who had her gay backup people pray before shows.
KH - I thought Mark just brought up neo-pets in jest. As far as I know, there's really no problem with them that fits with this particular topic. We really did trap our neo-pet under a glass, though! The endless chirping was annoying everyone.
I agree that what's PG or PG13 is unreal. If they keep pushing the limits, pretty soon hardcore porn will be rated PG and our pre-schoolers will be going to see Terminator VI. As for the ads: my daughter likes to watch "Trading Spaces". I grimaced when the commercial break featured Massengil Warming Lotion. Try explaining that to an 11 yr. old. That's what I get for exposing my little one to hardcore interior decorating.
I think that commercial for warming lotion is disgusting. It's bad enough that there are condom commercials on the radio. What's next commercials for vibrators?
Was watching Home and Garden TV today with my 11 year old. I think it was Curb Appeal or some before/after show. During the break a commercial came on for an R. Kelley R&B concert. This is the guy being charged with making homemade porno's with underage girls. Needless to say, my kids don't watch or listen to the news so she was clueless. It seems like every 4th homeowner on HGTV is a homo couple. Makes me kind of sick when they are redoing the master bedroom. (Actually I usually turn it off when that happens). Oh well, cable is gone next month. I don't think I'll buy rabbit ears either.
Mark:
I need that filter,too. I don't watch tv or read the papers, but the priest tonight mentioned gay marriage, women priests and ending celibacy for priests (all told to the tune of traditions that need to be changed) all in one breath right in front of my children! Is there a "popular culture" or a "dissenting priests popular agenda items" filter? I'd like to take it with me to church next Sunday.
Got a great hoot for all you out thhere in parentland.
Our principal laid down a decree. No exposure of navels, with or without rings. We had been enforcing it informally, but now have official backing.
The Brittany Spears Wanna-Bes should have listened to the following story.
Maureen, a biology friend, had had it with one girl and her exposed navel. She had the girl stand up in lecture and told her; "Suck it in and pull down your shirt, young lady."
Gal sucked it in, pulled down her shirt only to have her hip-hugger pants fall down. To the ground...
"Thank God she was wearing panties" was Mo's comment.
Moi, I teach a lab. I make them cover it up with a shapeless lab coat (buttoned up) if skin is exposed. After all, we ARE a hazardous location even with lecture going on. Can't acid burn our bellies, y'know.
The joys of science...
not that I necessarily disagree with all the comments & rants so far, but one question:
How do we teach our children (or each other, or ourselves) how to deal with the world around them without rendering them (us) an insular ghetto?
twb:
Good question. I think one place to start is to make them realize "to thine own self be true...".
Most of the teens (I really only have contact with them) are basically followers. They are DESPARATE to belong to something somewhere; hence the fan clubs and movies pitched to the zits set.
Problems go down when they accomplish something that has substance on their own steam.
Until then, it's something like waiting for the zits to disappear...
I have feminist as well as religious objections to the exhibitionist casual lesbianism and sluttification of women. Ah, well, at least men are off the hook: women can't say that men are exploiting them, they are stepping up and doing it to themselves vigorously.
And then the same women wonder...why won't he commit? Why am I having such a hard time having a good relationship with a man? DUH!
Re Britney's virginity:
I always thought, "Methinks the lady doth protest too much." (Apologies to Bill S. for referring to Britney as a lady.) Now the truth is out. She put out for Justin. Fr. Rob Johansen/Thrown Back has a great blog commentary about this.
I'm surprised no one superimposed Britney's face on an image of the BVM, the way Geo Bush has been turned into the Sacred Heart.
Ah well, too late now.
And don't get me started on MTV "Totally Gay." Blech. I can't get a spark on at all for those metrosexual light loafer str8 guys. Yuck.
Great comments on this thread. Also found Michael Brendan's comments on his blog very eloquent and insightful.
Also want to add the movie "Kissing Jessica Stein" to the list I posted Friday of movies, etc. over the last ten years or so that have contributed to the phenomenon which could be dubbed LESBIAN CHIC.
+J.M.J+
>>>Are women as disgusted by the sight of women kissing, as men are by the sight of men kissing?
I for one don't like it.
I also think that the whole "lesbian chic" thing has more to do with the mainstreaming of pornography than with "gay rights". Granted, lesbian chic has ridden the coat-tails of the gay rights movement; no doubt about that. But it seems to be more about using pornographic sapphic imagery/activity in order to gain ratings/sell music/beer, etc., than about gaining acceptance for female homosexuals.
Though the line between the two has certainly blurred a bit. I wonder whether *real* lesbians realize that they are, in a way, being exploited by Hollywood, Madison Avenue and the music industry? Or do they know that full well and just not care, as long as their lifestyles become more acceptable in the long run?
In Jesu et Maria,
Re Hipsters ... I never thought it was possible to invent a sexually unattractive way for young women to expose bare skin, but they did it, they finally did it.
[Not that seeing physical ugliness is the best way to deal with lust (defined as "consuming then discarding") -- it would be better to appreciate the beauty without lusting to possess it, as one can do with many classical and Renaissance painters' models.]
Perhaps hispters were sent by God as a pestilence to put males off rubbernecking ...
Rosemarie,
That was a very sharp insight. I think you're right: a big part of lesbian chic is driven by executives/programmers/creative types who are selling to males who are titillated by girl-girl. Another part of it is woman-originated: a sort of casual trendiness among the (straight) jet set and entertainment crowd. Very little of it is coming from true lesbians. This is in contrast to the gay male movement, which is driven by the gay men themselves. But, as you say, the true lesbians will take the support they are being given, even if the "boomlet" is has a cynical and mercenary genesis.
A separate issue: why is there no casual, trendy gay MALE homosexual activity with basically straight GUYS?
Or, in other words, why would the image Patrick presented (Billy Joel/Ricky Martin) probably never really occur? What is the difference?
+J.M.J+
>>>why is there no casual, trendy gay MALE homosexual activity with basically straight GUYS?
Or, in other words, why would the image Patrick presented (Billy Joel/Ricky Martin) probably never really occur? What is the difference?
I'm guessing, but I think there are a few reasons:
a)Most straight men still have a very strong aversion to male homosexual activity, and so would not engage in it. I can't possibly imaging Billy Joel wanting to kiss a guy on TV!
b)If Ricky Martin kissed a guy, he might not be seen as a ladies man anymore, so that would destroy his image. It's probably considered "unmanly".
c)Because it just doesn't sell as well as lesbian chic. As you said, many guys are titillated by sapphic acts, but most women don't seem to be similarly titillated by male homoeroticism. Or, if they are, they aren't talking about it as much as straight men are talking about lesbianism!
Women traditionally have either not consumed as much pornography as men or were not as open about it, due to societal attitudes which treat such activity as more acceptable for men. Thus the mass media types have been slower in trying to appeal to women using images of males, while the use of scantily-clad women to sell things to men has been around for decades!
Since sapphic acts have long been a part of straight male-oriented pornography, it makes sense that they would be used to try to sell to men now. But AFAIK, male homoeroticism seems to only be characteristic of porn directed at gay men, not porn for women (aka Playgirl).
So I guess advertisers believe that male homoeroticism would only sell products to male homosexuals, who make up a very small market share compared to straight men. Thus we see lesbian chic, but not "gay chic".
In Jesu et Maria,
+J.M.J+
Another possible reason occurs to me, though it is a bit cynical. Perhaps lesbian chic has two objectives: to sell products to men and to sell "lesbianism" to women. Not *real* lesbianism per se - which consists in a radical rejection of men - but pornographic "lipstick" lesbianism, which exists for the purpose of male entertainment.
I'm sure there are plenty of perverse men out there who would love for all women to become functionally bisexual, for their own enjoyment. It is the selfishness of pornography spilling over into relationships, as it is wont to do.
If mass media - which is probably still male-dominated, BTW - tried to sell male homoeroticism to women, it would be turning women into voyeurs rather than performers, and that is not the goal. The goal is to turn the whole world into a porno flick for the enjoyment of sexually-immature men. Women can have their fun in this flick too, but only on male terms; hence all women must become bisexual - but the same does not go for all men!
Yeah, that is pretty cynical! I guess I'll stop now. Virgin most pure, pray for us!
In Jesu et Maria,
Strong, insightful observations, Rosemarie. Thank you. A lot of this phenomenon is market driven. That's clear.
To rephrase my question from last Friday: I sometimes get the impression that women don't find SSA as repulsive as men do. I think there is more innate resistance on the part of straight men to the idea of personally engaging in homosexual activity, than there is on the part of women. Put another way: the impression I get--and I could be TOTALLY RADICALLY WRONG--is that women (i.e., women who are mostly straight) are less instinctively personally hostile toward bisexuality than men are. The thought of "doing it" with another woman doesn't disgust them and repulse them the way the thought of "doing it" with another man would disgust and repulse a straight guy.
I might be way, way, way offbase here, but I think that is part of the reason there is no "gay chic" on the part of straight guys like Billy Joel or Ricky Martin or, say, Ving Rhames.
+J.M.J+
>>>I sometimes get the impression that women don't find SSA as repulsive as men do.
It probably depends on the woman.
>>>I think there is more innate resistance on the part of straight men to the idea of personally engaging in homosexual activity
I agree that straight male resistance to homosexual activity is very strong, perhaps stronger than most female resistance to lesbianism, though that doesn't mean the latter is nonexistant.
Straight males are often deeply concerned with not being perceived as unmanly; an attitude imbedded in them since childhood taunting of "sissies". And Western culture has forbidden many displays of affection between men as "gay": holding hands, dancing, hugging, kissing on the cheek, etc.
Other cultures would not interpret these as homosexual actions at all! In Arab countries men hold hands while walking down the street, in Greece men dance together, in many Slavic countries they'll greet each other by kissing both cheeks, and no one thinks there's anything "gay" about that. But try it here in public and you might get beaten up!
Women, on the other hand, have traditionally been able to display affection for friends without it being interpreted as "lesbian". Though this may be changing as our culture becomes more sexualized and sapphic activity more visible in the media. I've already stopped dancing with other women at weddings! That's my heterosexual resistance to lesbianism rearing its head.
>>>The thought of "doing it" with another woman doesn't disgust them and repulse them the way the thought of "doing it" with another man would disgust and repulse a straight guy.
I've sometimes thought that one reason why some women are less repulsed by sapphic activity is because women are constantly displayed as sex objects in our culture. From childhood, girls are exposed to images of women in bikinis selling cars, etc; thus they are subtly programmed to see the female body as a sexual object. In later years this could manifest itself in a more casual attitude toward lesbian attraction and activity.
It's just a theory of mine. But if it's is true, then it's possible that the increasing use of the male body as a sex object in some advertising today might someday cause boys to soften their aversion to male homoeroticism. As our culture continues to degenerate...
A former Playboy playmate, who later repudiated her past, says that she believes that porn actresses become lesbians because they are exposed to so many perverse men in that profession that it just turns them off to men! Add to that the fact that they may have to perform sapphic acts in front of the camera, which gives them a taste for an alternative form of sexual activity which they then eventually begin to prefer.
Well, that's my NC-17 rated musings for the day!
In Jesu et Maria,
I personally believe there was a gay male chic for a short while during the 70's. It was found more underground, in the party swinging disco crowd & the glam rock crowd. Studio 54, David Bowie as Ziggy Stardust & of course the Village People. It was a trendy fad at the time but I guess it failed to go mass market as my Wife said.
Now we have this female bisexuality chic. I won't call it lesbian chic because it's not real lesbianism. It's mostly straight women who have had their barriers & ingrained taboos broken down for the enjoyment of perverse hetrosexual men. I say bisexual because the male dominated porn industry still want these women preceived as sexually accessable to men.
I'm reminded of a funny episode of SNL (which is a rarity these days) where some guys make a magic wish that they could witness two "real life lady lovers in action".
What materialized was two women with crewcuts, plaid shirts, no makeup, hair under their armpits, designed to look as unappealing to the average straight male as possible! One said to the other how lovely she looked at the Gaia festival that afternoon. These three poor guys are condemned to watch these "chicks" for eternity. One of them lamented, "You idiot, you should have wished that they were hot! And where's the Asian one?"
That's the difference between real lesbianism & the porn industry's version of it. I can tell you from anecdotal experience, talking to my former co-worker who was a lesbian, real lesbians are P.O.'d by the porn industry portrayal of them & are constantly rebuffing hetrosexual guys who, when they find out they are lesbians, want them to "perform" in front of them for their amusement.
My co-worker said, "How would you feel, Jim, if my girlfriend & I walked up to you and asked you & your wife to make out in front of us for our entertainment?" I said "Ha, ha, ha; not on a bet! I sympathize with you, girlfriend!" (then I made a cool move snapping my fingers to show that I’m down & with it!)
Anyway, the cool snapping fingers move probably didn't work because I'm a geek. I play role-playing games, remember?
Anyway, this female bisexuality chic is uncool. It's a way to oversexualize our culture into Huxley's Brave New World, which was a more sexually "liberated" society compared to Orwell's 1984, but just as oppressive and dehumanizing.
Thanks, Rosemarie and Jim, for the great comments. Very interesting stuff. Rosemarie you have eloquently presented a straight woman's view of lesbianism/bisexuality. And Jim, when you said it is more a phenomenon of female bisexuality chic than it is a phenomenon of lesbian chic, you are right on. It is basically a male-driven thing, although some of the women (e.g., Brittany, Madonna and Christina) seem to be more than willing participants. It's a sort of a rebellion thing for some women, a hip and trendy thing; a fad. That part of it is NOT male driven, I don't think.
+J.M.J+
The pop singer "Madonna" (why oh why does she have to have that name?) has always confused me. People try to portray her image as "liberating" to women, but I just don't see it. Promiscuity does not liberate women; if anything men "benefit" from it more than women do (though even that is not true benefit, considering what it does to the soul).
I don't know exactly how to read MadBriTina's controversial act at the awards ceremony. Were they trying to act "sexy" and provocative? Shocking and controversial? Both???
I think some straight women may do the whole bisexual act to get the attention of men, because they know some guys like it. So even if no men set MadBriTina up to do it, even if it was entirely their idea, it's still an action primarily oriented toward straight males, and so at least indirectly male-driven.
And needless to say it sets a terrible example for their young fans.
In Jesu et Maria,
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