I want Franklin E. Kameny to know that I recently had lunch with Mark Shea - and he is definitely not "little." The other characterizations are also off base. God bless - and Happy Thanksgiving.
Fr. Phil Bloom | Homepage | 11.26.03 - 3:25 pm | #

read thte article and realized they were not talking about Mark. Never mind.
Fr. Phil Bloom | Homepage | 11.26.03 - 3:38 pm | #

Easy mistake Father.

Just kidding, Mark!
JCL | 11.26.03 - 3:39 pm | #

Well, what's so surprising. When you don't have an argument, you toss aspersions and insults and declare victory.

Like the lawyer saying goes:

when the facts are against you, argue the law; when the law is against you, argue the facts; when the facts and law are against you, just argue.
c matt | 11.26.03 - 4:02 pm | #

"Let us have more and better enjoyment of more and better sexual perversions (consensually engaged in) by more and more people. Individually, collectively, societally, culturally, and nationally, we will all be better off."

How? The link between pornography & rape & other sexually violent acts is a well-documented fact but I assume porn is included amongst the perversions spoken of in the article. The fact is, Dr Frank wants everyone else to have perversions so he won't be alone in his. I do not mean that to be judgemental, BTW.

"I coined the slogan, "Gay Is Good," which expresses a moral absolute . . ."

This is a good one, too. A moral absolute? Wow.
Gene Branaman | 11.26.03 - 4:23 pm | #

Not for nothing is it written that such as they have "lost all sensitivity" and "cast off all restraint"
Steve | 11.26.03 - 6:46 pm | #

Gene writes:

"The fact is, Dr Frank wants everyone else to have perversions so he won't be alone in his. I do not mean that to be judgemental, BTW."

I agree ... anyone read the book,
_Degenerate Moderns: Modernity As Rationalized Sexual Misbehavior_
by Michael E. Jones? Quite good.
karen | 11.26.03 - 7:12 pm | #

Mark,

The surest sign that you are making a difference is when your "enemies" have to resort to name-calling. It's like the old quote by Isaac Asimov, "violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Here, it's "slander is the last refuge of the morally bereft...."

I wish I could remember where this comes from, or if it's even a true quote: "You shall know them by the enemies they make....."
Joey W | 11.26.03 - 9:09 pm | #

I may disagree as a fundamentalist with some things on this blog, but the name-calling is unnecessary and makes their position look lesser.
Victoria | 11.26.03 - 10:01 pm | #

I'm surprised that the doctor considers himself a "scientist"...
JonathanR. | 11.27.03 - 7:01 am | #

Why is it that practicing homosexuals do not find tolerance and difference and acceptance and inclusiveness and special gifts,in my heterosexuality?
tonymixan | 11.27.03 - 8:46 am | #

tonymixan:

beware generalizations. I am sure that many of them do and their issues aremore subtle. That is why Mark focuses on gay brownshirts.
Roberto | 11.27.03 - 2:31 pm | #

"Linguistic violence has a tendency to lead to real violence. "

If this were the rule rather than the exception, the blogosphere would be strewn with dead bloggers. Me thinks you overstate the issue.
andy | Homepage | 11.27.03 - 6:32 pm | #

You can't kill somebody from across an optic cable.
JonathanR. | 11.27.03 - 9:25 pm | #

Peace, all.

Joey's quote strikes me as too obvious for belief: "The surest sign that you are making a difference is when your "enemies" have to resort to name-calling."

I note that our host here frequently and repeatedly indulges in name-calling. He considers himself witty and funny, and I might agree on occasion, but his sample of linguistics sounds little different from his own blog. Even if I agreed with him 100%, I'd feel obligated to suggest he trips himself up with the boring and tedious references to brownshirts. Mark may be rightin his own mind, but he's lost the high ground in his arguments long ago.
Todd | Homepage | 11.27.03 - 10:55 pm | #

Mark, at least, names names and calls a spade a spade; when homosexual activists act like brownshirts he calls them brownshirts. He doesn't retreat to innuendo, straw-men, dodging the question, and putting words in the mouths of others, unlike some who frequent the blogsphere. If that is what is called "the high ground", then I'd hate to see what the swamplands are supposed to be.
Dennis_Mahon | 11.27.03 - 11:37 pm | #

Todd,

I realize that it may seem I was being overly simplistic, but there is "truth in them thar hills." What makes the difference between what Mark (and I admit, myself) do is that in the case of the supposed "name-callers", the epithets are applied with no idea of the actions or rationale of the person refered to. I've called Frank Griswold a clown, amongst other things, because of his ludicrous conduct and duplicity. If I behave in the same way, I'd expect negative comments about me - but just because I support the traditional Scriptural position regarding sexuality is no reason to call me a "homophobe." Mark doesn't just use a descriptive term about someone; he does it in a structured argument. There is a difference between constructive criticism, satire, and mere name-calling.

And one more very important thing - I, as many others, will graciously discuss such matters, rather than screaming "liberal/revisionist radical" at anyone whose opinion doesn't match m
Joey W | 11.28.03 - 6:01 pm | #

I think Todd has a point. Not about Mr. Shea, but about people in general. Both sides in this debate use polemical language and name-calling. The homosexuals are wrong, but not because they use polemical langauge.
James Kabala | 11.28.03 - 10:14 pm | #

Peace, all.

Thanks for the concessions. Part of the debate swirls around the point of calling names if the names fit. Count me as doubtful still.

I remember a kid in school who was called out by peers on the issue of body odor. The tormentors were right, but that didn't give them license to rub the truth into another's face to gleefully.

When Mark retires his silly headlines, Joey, I'll consider your argument has more weight. For now, gay activist-critics and Mark inhabit the same shelf so far as I can see.
Todd | Homepage | 11.29.03 - 8:25 am | #

War is under way between those who uphold Judeo-Christian faith and morals and those who aim to destroy traditional religion. Of course there's name calling, and it won't stop there.

Get used to it.

Our Lord tells us what persecution is going to come upon us.

Get ready for it.

There will be the faint-hearted, who will desert, and there will be traitors, including those we think closest to us. And there will be those who persist until the last day in faith and courage in the Lord.

Stand fast.

Isaiah 25
pavel chichikov | Homepage | 11.29.03 - 4:54 pm | #

Nice post Pavel (as usual).
JCL | 11.29.03 - 5:36 pm | #

Calling something by it's real name is truth-telling, not name-calling. Is it "name-calling" to call me a right wing Republican? It is the truth. And so when one behaves like a brownshirt one should not object to being given the name.

BTW, there is nothing "gay" about homosexuality, and I, for one, refuse to surrender this word to their camp.
David Davies | 11.30.03 - 12:00 pm | #

Peace, David.

The distinctions you make are telling. Calling "things" names ... glory be. Easy enough to consider a homosexual or a snide commentator a "thing" rather than a person.

You asked, "Is it "name-calling" to call me a right wing Republican?" If you choose to so name yourself, the answer is no. You also suggested that "when one behaves like a brownshirt one should not object to being given the name," and I think a strict Christian application of the gospel would be at odds with that. If giving people names will urge them closer to the gospel, then you have a case. Almost always, name-calling tends to reinforce self-satisfaction at the expense of another person's dignity. Sin of pride in action, I think.

Mark's persistence in baiting and apparently relishing in it? I think his clothing is cut from a similar cloth ...

And Pavel's argument "The end is near; all gloves come off" seems very self-serving to me. Same tailor.
Todd | Homepage | 11.30.03 - 12:24 pm | #

I read the article "How the Gays Won" and it was right. We (Christians) got our butts kicked and are still being kicked.
Richard F. Cook | 12.01.03 - 10:33 am | #