Mark Shea disses Bush, supports coreligionist Kerry. News at 11.
Anonymous | 01.30.04 - 1:50 pm | #

Anonymous,

Quote us Mark Shea supporting Kerry, or retract.

As for dissing any political leader, I've been around people who could get their behinds kicked well and truly for lack of respect toward political leaders living, and even dead.

Believe me, no matter where you are politically, you don't want things to be that way.
pavel chichikov | Homepage | 01.30.04 - 2:02 pm | #

Having been in the military,including the first Gulf War, I agree that these matters should not be entered into lightly.
Having said that, all the military people I've spoken to who have been in Iraq say that they believe in the job they have been doing. They also think that things are far better there than the media portrays.
SteveF | 01.30.04 - 2:17 pm | #

The Shea Plan: Do nothing to defeat the evil of terroism; congratulate self for clear thinking.

Mark, what do you suppose the cost of not invading Iraq was over the past decade or so?
Christopher Rake | Homepage | 01.30.04 - 2:19 pm | #

Christopher Rake:

While you're at it, why not ask the Mark to also measure the cost of not sending his family members off to invade China, Pakistan, Rawana, what-used-to-be-called Burma, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Cuba, and two other nations of choice too?

And if getting rid of Saddam was supposed to "end terrorism," then how come there have been more Americans killed since he was captured, as the story Mark refers to recounts?
Celine | 01.30.04 - 2:51 pm | #

As I recall, after the capture of Saddam many said that in the short term, attacks on US Soldiders in the region would rise.

By the way, Mark, I ended up buying "An End To Evil", and it's actually a very good and sensible book. I think that if you actually read it, you'd agree with almost all of it. Frum and Perle don't avoid the debates of controversial issues and they carefully state their case for their ideas. Believe it or not, they don't advocate invading every terror supporting rogue regime (though they do support destabilizing, containing, or toppling them in other ways). I think it's a great book, though I dislike the orange cover and of course the title sucks.
Bobbert | 01.30.04 - 4:08 pm | #

Krugman debated Perle on Democracy now and pointed out how Perle hectors about being weak on the "war on terrorism" then backs of on the obvious implication of his argument--that we're not invading enough. How insightful. No wonder Conrad Black pays him the big bucks.
al | 01.30.04 - 5:22 pm | #

Celine-
Please. Do you really think that argument is logical?

Since you can't save everyone, don't save anyone?

"Reasonable chance of success" and "Benefits outweighing the cost" are key factors.

For the record, I'd support us taking a VERY firm line with Syria and N. Korea (before they have a nuke).
Melvis | 01.30.04 - 5:25 pm | #

Also, questions like "last resort" enter in. Not to mention that pesky "lasting, grave, and certain" clause.

But we won. So the ends justify overlooking those things.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 01.30.04 - 5:35 pm | #

That's called begging the question, Mark. Many of us believe that the war met the just-war criteria, and are not arguing the ends justifies the means.

And celine, yes, the war against Saddam was supposed to end all terrorism immediately. Of course.
Christopher Rake | Homepage | 01.30.04 - 5:48 pm | #

I don't think it's begging the question at all, Christopher. A lot "say" they believe the war met just war concerns but still have not addressed the "lasting grave and certain criteria." That's the framework that Mark has always used. Based on the prewar information he found the threat "grave and certain" at least. I disagreed then. I think Mark has concluded that the lack of meaningful WMD's means that the lasting grave and certain question is much more open than he previously thought.

But that has always been his thought process...using the Catechism's lasting grave and certain analysis and not trying to get to a predetermined decision. He's never begged the "real question."
Joseph R. Mc Faul | 01.30.04 - 6:18 pm | #

Joseph, with respect, supporters of the war have addessed the lasting grave and certain criteria for months.
Christopher Rake | Homepage | 01.30.04 - 9:56 pm | #