Aw shucks, we were just getting started
What can I say? The arguments seemed reasonable to me.
So let's debate giving the land back to the Indians. That ought to get folks going.
But at least keep my cool new phrase-
Hesburghite:
American Catholic- official, scholar, bishop, layperson- whose words and actions reflect the spirit of former Notre Dame President Theodore Hesburgh. Fluent in phrases like
"openmindedness," "dialogue,"
"inclusion." Skilled in giving the benefit of the doubt to the Magisterium. Looks spiffy at board
meetings and banquets.
Personally, I think they *deserve* Kashmir.
Sorry, wrong Indians.
WRY,
I missed it--what was the kerfuffle this time?
Hesburghite is to fun a word to say to not keep. Almost as fun to say as Jezabel or troglodyte or any of a bunch of my favorite 3 syllable words.
I think we should give the land back to the Indians. At least Oklahoma, anyway.
"So let's debate giving the land back to the Indians. That ought to get folks going."
Sounds like fun. 
The problem now is who are the Native Americans today? There aren't many pureblood's left. A lot of people I see and read who call themselve Native American are also 7/8's something else.
Notre Dame still expels students discovered to have engaged in extra-marital sex. Again, let's all work on picking up narrower brushes.
Mark,
You were right to remove the post, but I suspect the researchers chose not to know the source of the cell lines. The responsibility lies with the University, assuming they have some degree of oversight.
al,
Go over to Amy's and read "In the Lab."
It was sorta along those lines, only Mark had his flame-thrower out.
Can we give the states that voted for Gore back to the Indians before November?
Speaking of Indians...
I read recently an essay in which the differences between the Spanish Catholic and British Protestant settlement of America were discussed.
Basically, the writer argued that there was a moral difference between the two, in that the Spanish sought to convert the Indians, where the British settlers sought to displace them and push them aside. The writer acknowledged that a lot of the Spanish policies were wrong - forcing the Indians into labor and onto haciendas, etc. but that the influence of the friars was felt in nonetheless insisting that the Indians were children of God too. The popes criticized the abuses of the Spanish severely, saying for instance that it was certainly true that Indians had souls (some argued they didn't apparently) and objecting to mistreatment of them.
Of course, the results of the two different approaches are here to see today: The Latin American countries have brown people because the blood of those Indians flows in their veins - a testament to the fact that they were not exterminated.
Americans like to argue that their country has been especially blessed by God, but in light of the circumstances of our founding we might have reason to question whether we really are the apple of His eye.
Romania for the Goths!
Dang it Mark, there goes your reputation for being an unreasonable hack of the neo-Catholics.
Speaking of Indians, anybody think they have a chance in the World Series?
WRY,
Actually, there were widespread deaths in south and central American indian populations, which resulted from the spread of disease and had little to do with colonial policy. I don't have the #'s with me now, but as I recall they experienced something like the death of 2/3rds of the population in less than 2 generations.
Ironically, in central and south America, the deaths happened quicker because colonization occurred earlier and because unlike American indians in the north, they could not keep moving farther west.
WRY,
I think we should give the land back to the American Indians. Of course, I'm married to one so I stand to make out pretty well.
"The second, sober, thought of the people is always right."
But, there's much to be said about the first thought when industrial child murder is the issue.
While I think that Mr. Shea is often silly and wrong about US foreign policy, he does have an unerring sense about how our nation's culture is killing us all, bit by bit.
I think he should have left the earlier post alone. It's his blog.
Help. Im trapped in the web
I admire any man whose fidelity is directed toward the truth rather than winning arguments. Good for you, Mark! Most folks who bother to care enough to have opinions don't have the guts to consider changing them.
Talking about giving the land back to the Indians, there is a situation here in NZ where it was recognised by the Treaty of Waitangi, between the British Crown and the indigenous Maori people of protection for their land and other rights.
Though the treaty was breached many times by settlers and the colonial militia, for the last 25 years, many of the grievances have been addressed and the land either given back, or the maori tribe involved has been compensated. The trouble is that it has become a gravy train, and many maori and other lwayers have become millioaires, and the very people that the process was intended to help, many are still no better off. But the maori people have a strong culture and an indomitable spirit.
A classic story is the maori peaceful passive resistance at Parehaka in the Taranaki region against the military backed land-grabbers in the 1860's which so inspired Ghandi to do the same thing in India 70 years later.
Now I'll bet you never knew that 
I came to this blog after having just read Diogenes over at CWN on the Georgetown, McCarrick issue. My understanding of this matter is: Cardinal McCarrick explained that Georgetown was "now well aware of the moral problems concerning use of certain cell lines and research involving tissue culture." However, it seems apparent that the Cardinal could not oblige the University to refrain from engaging in such research. Indeed the University has decided to go ahead with the research.
This issue reverts again to Ex Corde Ecclesiae and the relationship of a Catholic University to the Catholic Church and its official teaching.
In my opinion, this situation is similar to the one involving Catholic politicians who support abortion. If they so choose, they can support abortion as politicians. BUT, they cannot at the same time declare themselves to be Catholic. Moreover, it is the obligation of the bishop to refuse these Catholic politicans Holy Communion.
In the same manner, Georgetown and any other Catholic University can decide to engage in research that is directly opposed to the moral teaching of the Catholic Church. BUT, that Catholic University cannot at the same time declare itself to be Catholic. Moreover, it is the obligation of the bishop to declare that such a University is no longer Catholic.
Matthew
You can't be 7/8's anything. The numerator has to be even. Of course in today's world with all the surrogate motherhood and whatever, who knows...
Well, I was happy to stay out of this discussion. But Bob rather viciously and unjustly attacks me like this!
Bob, I have 8 great grandparents, if 7 were from Ireland and 1 was Native American wouldn't that make me 7/8's Irish. I do like these light hearted debates.
Mark-
My admiration went for you went up quite a bit with your retraction today. Of course it was already pretty high.
Bob, how do you figure? I thought heritage was calculated simply by dividing a given number of ancestors by the number belonging to a certain bloodline. So for example, my dad's parents were both of German ancestry. My mom was born to a French mother and German father. That makes me 3/4 German (by heritage)--an odd numerator. And 1/4 French--another odd numerator. Isn't that how the calculation goes?
If a person had one N.A. great-grandparent, and seven of other ethnicity, that person would be 7/8 non-N.A. No?
(In point of fact, I consider myself Christian, Western, and American. The order of the second and third are negotiable; the first is not.)
Sorry about stepping on your toes there, Matthew. If they can put a rover on Mars, they oughta be able to make comments software that detects overlapping near-simultaneous posts!
My wife's father was pakeha(European)
My wife's mother's father was full blood Maori.
My wife's mother's mother was 1/2 caste Maori.
That makes my wife's mother 3/4 Maori
which makes my wife 3/8 Maori
I am pakeha(European ancestory) which makes our children 3/16 Maori, and their children....Diluted
And then there's Matt Mr. Nuance Drudge who headlines the story:
"Georgetown uses cells from aborted fetuses...." Or the one on Yahoo News for the AP story: "School uses cells for aborted fetuses...." Not very nuanced, were they?
Operators at the Med Center going out on stress....
"Georgetown University Medical Center....no ma'am, we're not babykillers....let me refer you to Father Fitzgerald.....Georgetown Medical.....no, Dr. Frankenstein doesn't practice here....Let me refer you to the center president's office....Georgetown Medical....Won't renew your Hoya basketball season tickets? Now that's a crisis, Sir. Let me patch you into the university president's office...."
You can't be 7/8's anything. The numerator has to be even.
If the numerator is even, and so is the denominator (which it always will be in cases of heritage unless some freakish new technology was used in your generation), then the fraction is not in simplest terms. That is, both numerator and denominator can still be divided by the same number to make them into simplest terms. 4/8 when both are divided by four becomes 1/2, which has on odd numerator.
WRY:
Do you remember the essay's title that compared the legacy of Spanish and British colonization of the New World?
I'm rather curious. I tend to suspect the same thing in Canada. The French were also intermarrying with teh Indians and if the 1758 Conquest hadn't occured
Don: The Canadian supreme court has also severely condemned the federal government for serious failing in its Crown duties towards the native tribes in past court cases dealing with treaties. Even more interesting was that some study done years ago found that the native populations living in Quebec do somewhat better than those in other provinces or with the feds.
xavier
On the somewhat related topic of Canadian vs. US settlement. I attended a lecture that claimed that in Canada it was the military that went east to west and "cleaned out" the native tribes. In the US it was mostly settlers that did it and then called in the army to finish the job. Which related to why until WWII the average American citizen living in rural areas had better weaponry than the average US soldier.
"I was overhasty in my JUDGEMENT here"....
Giggling at the fact that anyone would think they hold such a position as to judge anyone or anything.
Best of luck to you in your spiritual growth.
With love and light.... blessings!
or anything
We judge things all the time. We judge whether it is true if it is okay to judge or not. We judge whether candidate a or candidate b should receive our vote. We judge whether we want steak or tofu spaghetti for dinner tonight. Having a mind means that we not only have the right to judge things, but the duty. It is judging the contents of souls that is beyond us and wrong to try. Mark wasn't doing that; he was merely judging relative value of Cardinal McCarrick's actions against those of other American bishops. He may have gone too far, as he himself admits, but he was not, I think, venturing into territory that is illegitimate.
The Indians don't need land, they need Jim Thome back.
Giggling at the fact that anyone would think they hold such a position as to judge anyone or anything.
Now this kind of thing drives me totally bonkers, and I'll bet you all know the reason why --
Inconsistency in Pronoun Number!
The word "anyone" is, of course, singular. Yet the composer of the above attempts to wed the singular "anyone" with the plural "they".
This is done, of course, to avoid using the politically incorrect (but absolutely right!) singular pronoun, "he".
No matter how prevailing popular sentiment appears to the contray, the fact remains that uniting a singular pronoun with a plural prounoun is against the law.
Even -- and I'm fairly certain of this -- in Massachusetts!
your judgement is duely noted. thank you for the lesson in pronoun usage.
Just wait till the Mass. Supreme Court gets hold of it - they will find such mandated pronoun agreement unconstitutional.
xavier,
I couldn't find the exact article (didn't bookmark it) but there are two things I read recently that touch on the subject. One, an essay Christianity Today called "The Truth about the Catholic Church and Slavery" gives the church great credit in the New World for its stance. The other, more directly dealing with Indians, is an article in the Catholic encyclopedia, "America" (find it at www.newadvent.org).
Here's an excerpt:
"There was a marked contrast between the position assumed by the Catholic Church towards the Indians and the attitude of Protestantism. The former, as soon as the administration of the Spanish dominions in America began to assume a character of stability, instituted concerted efforts for the education and civilization of the Indians. The introduction of the printing press in Mexico (about 1536) was brought about specially to promote Indian education. The clergy, particularly the regular orders (Franciscans, Dominicans, and others, and later on, on a still larger scale, the Jesuits) became not only teachers but then protectors of the natives. It was the aim of the Church (in harmony with the crown) to preserve the Indian and defend him from the inevitable abuses of lesser officials and of settlers. Hence in Spanish America, the Indian has held his own more than anywhere else, and has come to be a moderately useful element. Attempts to create Indian communities under the exclusive control of ecclesiastics proved very successful until the expulsion of the Jesuits, when all the beneficial results were irretrievably lost. The efforts of Protestants were mostly individual, and received little or no support from the State. From the English standpoint, the Indian was and is looked upon as an obstruction to civilization, and the expediency of his removal, forceful or otherwise, has dictated a policy sometimes completely at variance with the principles of forbearance and toleration so loudly proclaimed."
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