Mark, you're just a dirty Larouchite who secretly sympathizes with Palestinian subhumans, and probably enables in some way the closet anti-Semitism of the Vatican. Tsk tsk.
al | Homepage | 08.30.04 - 3:10 pm | #

Unlike many American Liberals I consider Israel as just another nation-state ... and not just a bunch of Zionist Jews trying to exterminate all Palestinian-Arabs who would otherwise be living quiet, peaceful lives in an Islamic paradise of religious tolerance with their Jewish and Christian neighbors.

Meanwhile these quiet, peaceful, tolerant Palestinian-Arabs work toward ensuring that absolutely no one acknowledges the right of the Zionist Jews to live in their own state when everyone knows that it is actually the land of Islam.

I appreciate the fact, Mark, that you "will presume innocence till guilt is shown" with regards to alleged Israeli spying. I just wish you were as charitable when it comes to painting all American Conservatives as a bunch of End Times ninnies when it comes to the topic of Israel.
Daniel Crandall | 08.30.04 - 3:14 pm | #

See I told you Mark
al | Homepage | 08.30.04 - 3:16 pm | #

Daniel:

Please note my carefully chosen word "many". It is very deliberately distinct from "all" or even "most".

Also, please note that my comments in no way imply anything about Palestinians, suicide bombers, etc. I'm one of those eccentrics who thinks that the fact Palestinians commit grave evil does not somehow render the State of Israel immaculately conceived and free of all original and actual sin. I'm also one of those people that thinks we not only don't owe the Palestinians anything, we also don't owe Israel anything. Israel, however, owes an enormous amount to us. If they have been spying, I would regard it much as I would regard the French spying on us. Many American conservatives seem to be under the impression that there should be a difference in how we should treat the two nations for an identical crime. I hold the strange opinion that we should treat both nations the same.

Weird. I know.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 08.30.04 - 3:20 pm | #

Incidentally, Larry Franklin is reported to be a devout Catholic. Karen Kwiatkowski even speaks highly of him: "When I think of spies in the Defense Department. . . . I don’t think of Larry Franklin, a guy I like and respect. Larry is an interesting and kind person with a lot of great stories. He came into our cubicle one morning feeling energetic, and demonstrated a Karate kick of some kind that to this day still impresses me."
al | Homepage | 08.30.04 - 3:29 pm | #

Mark,

You are not the only "eccentric" hereabouts, as you described yourself above....
Will Walton | 08.30.04 - 3:52 pm | #

Almost all stories about Israel, Mark, that are linked at your blog begin with your kneejerk attack on American Conservatives, oh, sorry, "Many American Conservatives" who think that Lahaye's Left Behind novels are non-fiction.

All I'm saying is that it gets pretty tiresome.

Interesting, isn't it, that you're allowed your baseless cynical attack on "Many American Conservatives" but my baseless attack on American Liberals (I actually do not think that all or even many American liberals are, in fact, antisemites who would like to see Israel destroyed (Though many Palestinians would)) leads you, and al, to take what appears to be a defensive position.

Weird, I know.
Daniel Crandall | 08.30.04 - 3:56 pm | #

I don't know if this was really espionage or not. But if it was, I'll go with WFB's response when asked at a rather pro-Israel gathering about Jonathan Pollard's possible release. He replied that he wished that Pollard had been executed.

I like Israel. I like Ireland, too. But they're both just foreign countries when it comes to spying.
Ed | 08.30.04 - 4:08 pm | #

Daniel,
You're welcome to as many attacks on liberals as you'd like. I may even join you. And you'll notice, my "defensive" reaction was an anticipation.
al | Homepage | 08.30.04 - 4:14 pm | #

Like Mark, I don't know whether Israel stole US intelligence this time.

I don't find it hard to believe, though, as they have done such things at least twice before.

But that's OK, I guess, because they're our "ally".
Fr. Rob Johansen | Homepage | 08.30.04 - 4:20 pm | #

al,

So if you anticipate an attack on a patently absurd statement then it is perfectly fine to make the absurd statment?

Yeah, that sounds reasonable.
Daniel Crandall | 08.30.04 - 5:33 pm | #

No, I anticipated the patently absurd statement.
al | Homepage | 08.30.04 - 6:26 pm | #

It's wrong for Israel to steal our secrets.
BenYachov(Jim Scott 4th) | 08.30.04 - 6:59 pm | #

Daniel:

Why would I think that many American conservatives are prone to knee-jerk justifications of everything Israel does, merely because one of the most prominent American conservatives (Frum), in the most prominent American conservative website (NRO)instantly offered a kneejerk "paynoattentionthere' snothingtoitbutJewishconspiracymongering") justification of Israel the instant the question of Israeli spying was raised?

What a mysterious puzzle. Where do I get these outlandish notions? Must be from the same kooky place I get the idea that many Lefties are fanatical pro-abortion zealots. There's no explaining the strange patterns and tendencies I see in the American political landscape. Purely subjective, no doubt.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 08.30.04 - 7:04 pm | #

Ah, the fascinating turns of those that really, really want their political philosophy to be the only valid "prudential" interpretation of our shared Faith. As if respect for the right of Israel to exist demands that the right of America to keep her secrets be violated whenever Israel has a need to know (See Pollard, etc.)

I will also reserve judgement. Innocent until proven guilty and all that. However, any one that thinks that questioning the character of one who considers Israel's alleged violation as inappropriate is a moral obligation better not be so quick to show off their Catholicism. Or their integrity.
Frank Tassone | Homepage | 08.30.04 - 9:34 pm | #

Perhaps Frum was responding to allegations originally reported on CBS News that Israel may have sought to influence US policy towards Iraq. Or Juan Cole's patently bizarre conspiracy between the Likud party, AIPAC, Christian evangelicals, Italian fascists, ect (perhaps he can throw in a Builderburger or two for good measure) to invade Iraq so that Israel is free to annex the West Bank (and southern Lebanon!) unopposed.

Sounds like a Jewish conspiracy to me.
Dan Darling | Homepage | 08.30.04 - 10:19 pm | #

Dan,
It was policy towards Iran that the Franklin/Rhode/Ledeen axis was said to be concerned with--ie. Osirak pt. 2.
al | Homepage | 08.31.04 - 12:09 am | #

Correct.

Which doesn't have anything to do with some plot by Ledeen and Rubin to get Israel to reclaim southern Lebanon, contrary to Cole's assertions.
Dan Darling | Homepage | 08.31.04 - 1:35 am | #

I remember when they found a bunch of listening devices in one of the newest EU buildings. They were planted by...the United States!

Countries spy, and often for good reasons. They also spy on their allies - even really close ones. For example, our NATO ally France has been caught spying on the US before, and I am sure we spy on them.

I have no moral qualms with Israel trying to spy on us...it is their intelligence service's job. It is our counter-intelligence service's job to stop them. And anyone who spies for a foreign country is guilty of espionage (and in a time of war, treason), and should be punished accordingly.

And accordingly means "accordingly". For example, what the Israelis seem to be accused of (this time around) is pretty minor, and the person who supplied the info should be appropriately punished - which might mean dismissal as opposed to firing squad.
Charley | 08.31.04 - 8:44 am | #

Countries spy on other countries all of the time. Even allies spy on each other. Some get caught, most don't. The isn't an apology, it's just a statement of fact about the world of réal politique.

David Frum can be a very passionate read. When it comes to questions or issues involving Israel, though, he tends to shed his objectivity.

Let's wait and see the investigation uncovers
John Palubiski | 08.31.04 - 10:10 am | #

This should shed some light: www.internationaljewishconspiracy.com
Bradamante | 08.31.04 - 10:43 am | #

The above is sarcasm, BTW, hilarious site, though.
Bradamante | 08.31.04 - 10:45 am | #

Someone please show me where Frum wrote anything approximating "that Israel is absolutely incapable of ever ever ever doing anything wrong ever." al, you support Mark in this; where is Frum's statement that Israel "has God's stamp of approval on everything it does?" (talk about "manipulative rhetoric"!)

And someone please try to address what Frum wrote, which is simply that the media sexed up a story in order to discredit the Bush Administration on the eve of the Republican Convention and AIPAC, one of the largest Israeli lobbying groups.

Rather than address this point Mark would rather toss around "manipulative rhetoric", characterizing Frum and other conservatives who think Frum may actually be on to something, as a Left Behind, End Times kooks.
Insensitive Brute | 08.31.04 - 11:49 am | #

I should have changed my name for my previous post. But then again, given that I stand apart from Mark & al on this topic, maybe the new name should stick. Perhaps, if I embrace my inner 'insensitive brute' I won't be so inclinded to take myself so seriously on this & other topics.


Daniel Crandall | 08.31.04 - 12:23 pm | #

Yes, countries spy on each other all the team. Frankly, I have no problem with "allies" spying on each other so long as any secret discovered remains within the recipient spying ally and not sold out to "enemies".

What's that saying - keep your enemies close, and your friends closer?
c matt | 08.31.04 - 12:43 pm | #

sorry, should be all the "time", not "team". Still subconsciously thinking about Argentina's double gold (soccer/basketball).
c matt | 08.31.04 - 12:45 pm | #

[Unlike many American Conservatives, I regard Israel as just another nation-state and not some divinely ordained country that has God's stamp of approval on everything it does. The Jews are chosen. The state of Israel is just a human political construct.]

Yow! Mark Shea and I strongly agree twice in one week! What's happening to me (him)? ;o)

Bravo, Mark.
David Palm | 08.31.04 - 1:03 pm | #

Harvard Law School Professor Alan Dershowitz is currently trying to argue the case that the crime of "spying" (i.e., international espionage) does not apply to an allied country, and what Jonathan Pollard did ulitmately served for the good of both Israel and the United States, and should be regarded as a minor infraction.
Ellen Hughes | 08.31.04 - 2:25 pm | #

"Many American conservatives seem to be under the impression that there should be a difference in how we should treat the two nations for an identical crime."

I'd wager 99.9 percent of these so-called "conservatives" are in fact neo-conservatives.
Scott | 08.31.04 - 8:57 pm | #

Spying is spying. People don't spy on you when they wan't to help you. the spy on you when they want to know something you don't want to tell them.

The reason why Frum's response is borderline treason is because he immediately starts to parsing before we even really know the full story. If there's a video of this then how can you conduct apologetics for it? After saying Buchanan "hates" his country for not wanting a war??
al | Homepage | 08.31.04 - 11:22 pm | #

www.internationaljewishconspiracy.org

"from the people that brought you banking"
berenike | Homepage | 09.01.04 - 5:57 am | #

Here is some more treasonous talk from the "Israel is absolutely incapable of ever ever ever ever doing anything wrong ever under any circumstances whatsoever or any issue you wish to discuss etc., etc., etc., etc." crowd over at the WSJ.

Shameful.
Tom Connelly | 09.01.04 - 6:39 am | #

Tom,
I say that's more stupidity than treasonous. That Clinton pardoned someone for something similar is a defense?? Maybe Marc Rich is a better example than John Deutch.

You'd think that they'd want the specifics before they threw the weight of their editorial page behind minimizing whatever findings the FBI comes up with. Then again, you'd have thought the OSP would actually want to see what the CIA thought about its "findings" before issuing policy statements on them. . . .
al | Homepage | 09.01.04 - 8:00 am | #

Al,

Then perhaps Frum's
Tom Connelly | 09.01.04 - 9:25 am | #

Al,

Then perhaps Frum's take on the issue is merely "stupid" as well, and not "borderline treason."

Just a thought, from the "Israel is absolutely incapable of ever ever ever ever doing anything wrong ever ever ever under any circumstances whatsoever or any issue you wish to discuss etc., etc., etc., etc. -- ever" side of the aisle.
Tom Connelly | 09.01.04 - 9:31 am | #

Tom,
There's nothing to say that traitors have to be smart, or that the WSJ editorial page isn't traitorous.

Its just that Frum goes to extraordinary lenghths to conduct apologetics for something we don't even know the full parameters of, and, of course, as you pass over in silence, it was he who raised the whole question of treason in this context in his "Unpatriotic Conservatives."
al | Homepage | 09.01.04 - 10:20 am | #

Al,

"As you pass over in silence, it was he who raised the whole question of treason in this context in his 'Unpatriotic Conservatives'."

Forgive my silence, Al. Whether it's from Frum or others, I think there's too much labeling of those we disagree with as "traitors' or "liars" (as someone once characterized Charles Krauthammer on this blog) or whatever.

Sometimes people are just wrong.
Tom Connelly | 09.01.04 - 10:56 am | #

Tom,
The difference is, objecting to a war, particularly an ill-advised war not in our national interest, is actually patriotic.

Whereas conducting apologetics for treasonous behavior, is, well treason.

In one case its a question of a false accusation, even if the charge (objecting to the war) is true.

In the other case its simply a question of fact.

As is the case with Dr. Krauthammer's remarks--if he says something demonstrably false, which he knows to be false, he is a liar.
al | Homepage | 09.01.04 - 11:25 am | #

Or to put it another way Tom, I was surprised to see the epithet "McCarthyism" deployed in Michael Ledeen's attempt to assert that there was "nothing to see here, move along", since for actual conservatives, McCarthy was actually blowing the whistle on traitors.

I know the communists get all bent out of shape by being outed by "McCarthyists" but is that really the sort of defense someone accused of treason ought to mount?
al | Homepage | 09.01.04 - 11:34 am | #

Al,

What does "conducting apologetics for treasonous behavior, is, well treason" mean? How does "conducting apologetics" differ from expressing ones opinion?
Tom Connelly | 09.01.04 - 1:37 pm | #