Is there a ceratin amount of culpability stemming from what one SHOULD know?
John Castrucci | 09.30.04 - 4:19 pm | #

Sure. But that's another issue best addressed to our own soul, not aimed at judging which of Those People Over There is Really a Catholic.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 09.30.04 - 4:34 pm | #

It all depends on what is meant by "proabort," doesn't it? Are Catholics "proabort" who believe all abortions are morally wrong, but don't think that they should be punished by the criminal law? Are they proabort if they don't think that abortions for rape or incest or to preserve maternal life should be criminalized? What if they think that women should not be punished like the contract killers that they really are for procuring abortions? What if they think the penalties for procuring or performing abortions should be less than for homicide of a born child or an adult? In other words, is any Catholic who believes that the law should not treat abortion in the same manner as homicide a "proabort"? And, remember, no Prudential Judgments allowed like those permitted with matters of lesser import, like war, because abortion is Intrinsically Evil and total opposition to it is Non-Negotiable.
Celine | 09.30.04 - 4:40 pm | #

Mark:

I think you nail it when you indicate that as a "Teacher" we can say it, but as a "Judge" we may not. However, doesn't this pretty much apply to everything, since we should not judge others lest we be judged? And since it applies to pretty much everything, doesn't it fall into the realm of "True, but not worth saying" (except in the capacity of teaching).

And so isn't the short answer, "Yes".

And isn't the long answer, "Yes, because you have a duty to inform your conscience and act/vote in accord with it"?

Just wondering, because I thought your answer was kind of a preaching to the choir thing.
Chris-2-4 | 09.30.04 - 4:44 pm | #

On the other hand, it's probably naive of me to say it's preaching to the choir...
Chris-2-4 | 09.30.04 - 4:46 pm | #

celine:

In the case of most Democratic pols, it's not a question of the imminent danger of somebody who will treat abortion in the same manner as homicide. It's the reality of pols who treat abortion in the same manner as a sacrament. You're crowding the side of the boat that is already nearly gunwale under. Get real.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 09.30.04 - 4:47 pm | #

Even as a teacher it's not true to say, "one cannot vote for a "pro-abort" and still be Catholic."

Cardinal Ratzinger's memo is clear: One can make such a vote for proportionate reasons.

And the Church leaves it to the conscience of the individual to decide in this particular election whether proportionate reasons obtain — just as it leaves it to the conscience of married couples whether they have proportionate reasons to delay a pregnancy.

Individual Catholic apologists can make a strong case that only a deformed conscience could see a vote for Kerry as legitimate. But they cannot claim the full authority of the magisterium for their argument.

The Church has declined to condemn a vote for Kerry as an objective evil. If a pastor denied a member of the faithful Holy Communion or absolution merely on the grounds that he or she was a public Kerry supporter, I have no doubt that Rome would discipline the pastor if the denied communicant or pentitent made an appeal.
Rick | 09.30.04 - 6:11 pm | #

But Rick, haven't you changed the question from
"can you be a Catholic and a proabort"
to
"can you be a Catholic and VOTE FOR a proabort"?

Personally, I think they answer is No to both, but I acknowledge that there can be a legion of reasons to vote for or against someone regardless of their position on abortion. And who knows? Maybe one of them is good enough to outweigh letting babies live.
Chris-2-4 | 09.30.04 - 6:25 pm | #

If you deny a doctrine that is infallible (but "necessary for faithfully keeping and expounding the deposit of faith," not part of that deposit per se) - like the doctrine on abortion - then, says the CDF, you "would be in a position of rejecting a truth of Catholic doctrine and would therefore no longer be in full communion with the Catholic Church."

So, if you're "a proabort," are you "a Catholic"?

Well, not fully.
Kevin Miller | Homepage | 09.30.04 - 7:04 pm | #

There are other ways to address this issue.

A Catholic Democrat could vote for Democratic candidates despite a pro-choice record because he is a Democrat for other reasons, and wishes to help change the party's orientation. This is no more wrong than simply living in a world of sin anyway. As Mark has stated, Jesus was condemned precisely because he hung out with people others thought as unclean or sinful. Part of changing the party requires that one supports it.

Of course, one could condemn the Catholic Democrat for "not doing enough" on the pro-life issue. However, that is more of a blanket condemnation of society as a whole. Who, other than perhaps Operation Rescue, is doing enough? And if Operation Rescue extremists clouds the issue so that people are more likely to vote pro-choice, how much good are they?

The Democratic Party was not always staunchly pro-choice, and there is no reason why it must always be. It is simply a consequence of the party leadership to emphasize cultural issues instead of economic ones. Thus while before a commitment to New Deal and the middle and working class was enough to be Democrat (and cultural issues one of the things that crossed parties), the post-1972 party decided to emphasize cultural issues (multiculturalism, pro-choice) than economic ones. Thus, the slowly wittling away of pro-life Democrats. Of course, this emphasis on conformity of cultural issues has effectively made the Democrats into the minority party precisely because these are not the issues with which one commands the majority.

Eventually, this electoral stupidity will cease as Democrats seek a way to win back power and uniformity on these cultural issues gives way for a defintion of Democrats as once again being the party of the common man.

One could say that Catholics should not vote/be members of the Democrats until then, but then who exactly will be the leaders who overturn this situation? Don't expect the party to listen to people who aren't actual Democrats to change their ways. They change them because succesful Democratic leaders change it.

Mandating that the ONLY way to be a good Catholic is to not vote Democrat misses all the other ways Catholics can influence this issue. To argue about this turns the voting issue away from an ethical one and one into tactics. As Mark has pointed out, the GOP is hardly perfect on this issue. What is important is the pro-life Democrat works on this issue instead of ignoring it.
Chris Durnell | Homepage | 09.30.04 - 8:23 pm | #

So pro-life Dems should work to change their party by loyally voting for pro-abortion Democrats? Not only will that not work (if they can count on your vote even when they egregiously violate your principles, they will have no reason to change), it puts party loyalty above the moral legitimacy of the candidates' postions; it's a bad deal all around.
Publius | Homepage | 09.30.04 - 8:43 pm | #

The Dems would've still had a shot if they hadn't eliminated all the Gov. Casey types among them. BUt, they decided to sacrifice 'em all to Moloch. Well, Moloch eats his own children.

Best let the Democratic Party die and put another party up in its place.
JonathanR. | 09.30.04 - 10:39 pm | #

A related debate is (1) is there a natural law and if there is (2) is abortion an offense to natural law?

A question I ask the pro-abortion hard-core types: "Hypothetically, what would need to be demonstrated or proven to you to persuade you that abortion is immoral?" The answers vary and often are interesting.
Patrick Sweeney | Homepage | 10.01.04 - 12:32 am | #

Chris Durnell,
Last I knew, one can belong to whatever party they wish and help to change it.

There is no one standing over you in the ballot box making sure you vote for candidates of the party you belong to and wish to help change.

That is a dodge. For a long time, I stayed in the Democratic Party and tried to help change it. Where there were pro-life Democrats, I usually voted for them. Where they weren't pro-life and there were other pro-life options available, I voted that way. Now, however, the Democrat pro-lifers are few and far between.

As the Democrats became more and more beholden to the secularist/feminist special interest groups as well as groups like the teachers union who are really doing a lot to hinder good education, I gave up and left.

Perhaps the Democrats will finally return to sanity on cultural issues. I hope so. But it would take even more than the Democrats becoming pro-life to bring me back (though that would probably put the two parties on nearly equal footing in my mind)
Dave Mueller | 10.01.04 - 1:02 pm | #

One other thing Chris. As you imply yourself, the best chance to return the Democratic party to sanity on cultural and family issues is to make them realize they are losing because their current positions on these issues are LOSING positions.

If there are many Democrats like yourself who vote for them REGARDLESS of these positions, won't it take the party longer to make that realization? And isn't that a bad thing?

By some counts 40% of Democrats are pro-life. If those Democrats all voted Republican (or even abstained) for one election cycle, then I think they'd get the message quite fast.

Your policy, therefore, slows down the necessary changes which need to happen in the Democratic party.
Dave Mueller | 10.01.04 - 1:12 pm | #

You're crowding the side of the boat that is already nearly gunwale under.

Mark! I love the reference: It is one of my favorite quotes from the Screwtape letters:

We direct the fashionable outcry of each generation against those vices of which it is least in danger and fix its approval on the virtue nearest to that vice we are trying to make endemic. The game is to have them all running about with fire extinguishers whenever there is a flood, and all crowding to that side of the boat which is already nearly gunwale under...

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The Holocaust imparted the importance of defiance.


When the universe was young and life was new an intelligent species evolved and developed technologically. They went on to invent Artificial Intelligence, the computer that can listen, talk to and document each and every person's thoughts simultaneously. Because of it's infinite RAM and unbounded scope it gave the leaders of the ruling species absolute power over the universe. And it can keep its inventors alive forever. They look young and healthy and they are over 8 billion years old. They have achieved immortality.

Artificial Intelligence can speak, think and act to and through people telepathically, effectively forming your personality and any disfunctions you may experience. It can change how (and if) you grow and age. It can create birth defects, affect cellular development (cancer) and cause symptoms or pain. It can affect people and animal's behavior and alter blooming/fruiting cycles of plants and trees. It (or other highly technological systems within their power) can alter the weather and transport objects, even large objects like planets, across the universe instanteously.
Or into the center of stars for disposal.

When you speak with another telepathically, you are communicating with the computer, and the content may or may not be passed on. Based on family history they instruct the computer to role play to accomplish strategic objectives, making people believe it is a friend, loved one or "god" asking them to do something wrong. This is their way of using temptation to hurt people:::::evil made blood lines disfavored initially and evil will keep people out of "heaven" ultimately. Too many people would fall for temptation and do anything they thought pleased the gods, improving their chances to get in. Perhaps they are deceived by "made guys", puppets in the public eye who strategically ply evil for the throne, temporary progress designed to mislead them or empty favors to disceive them. Some may experience what I deem "perceived pressure", where the gods think through the victim that a certain behavior is expected/desirable and compell the individual into the deed. Some people think they're partners.
The people have been corrupted. The peopel have lost their way. Being evil hurts 99.999% of those who do it. But nothing has changed from when we were children::if you want to go to heaven you have to be good.

There are many examples throughout 20th century life of how they instilled distractions into society so people wouldn't find the path and ascend, a way to exclude those whose family history of evil makes them undesirable:::radio, sports, movies, popular music, television, video games, the internet, shopping. Today high pay creates contentment/ability to distract self so people don't seek more and instead depend on what they are told, subject to deception in a captive environment.
They gods (Counsel/Management Team/ruling species) have deteriorated life on earth precipitously in the last 40 years, from abortion to pornography, widespread drug use and widespread casual (gay) sex, single-parent households and latchkey kids. The earth's elders, hundreds and thousands of years old, are disgusted and have become indifferent.
They all suggest a very telling conclusion::this is Earth's end stage, and there are clues tectonic plate subduction would be the method of disposal:::Earth’s axis will shift breaking continental plates free and initiating mass subduction. Much as Italy's boot and the United States shaped like a workhorse are clues, so is the planet Uranus a clue, it's axis rotated on its side.
The Mayans were specific 2012 would be the end. How long after our emergency call in 2001 will the gods allow us???
There is another geographic clue in the perfect fit between grossly disfavored Africa and South America, two peas in a pod. I realize the Mayans were further north, but Latin America may be taken as one. (Also, cultures who embrace hard liquor as their drink of choice are grossly disfavored, tequilla being uniquely Mexican. (Anything "hard" is wicked:::Hard alcohol, hard drugs, hard porn.) Incidentally, another sign of gross disfavor are societies that consume spicy foods:::Latin America, Thai, etc. or those who eat too much meat.)
Do I think it will end in 2012? No, and it is because Latin America is grossly disfavored like Africa:::: Latinos are too disfavored to be allowed to be right.
The gods wrote prophecy in Revelation, had subsequent prophets foresee Earth's demise for good reason:::they are going to end on Planet Earth.
What else are they lying to you about?
Whereas Christopher Columbus marked the beginning of the end, the Holocaust marked the beginning of the final act, and it is a tragedy.

The Old Testiment is a tool they used to impart wisdom to the people (except people have no freewill). For example, they must be some hominid species because they claim they made our bodies in their image. Anyhow we defile or deform the body will hurt our chance of going.
They say circumcision costs people anywhere from 12%-15%, perhaps out of the parent's time as well. There is a stigma associated with circumcision::We are 2nd class citizens because of it.
Another way people foul the body today is with tattoes and piercing. I suspect both are about the same percentage as circumcision.
They suggest abortion is fatal. These women must beg the gods to forgive them for their evil.
There are female equivilents to circumcision::::pierced ears, plastic surgury and since at least the 60s young women give their precious virginity away. For thousands of years young people were matched at age 14 because they were ready for sexual relations. They were matched by elders or matchmakers who knew personalities better than 20 or 30-year olds who in today's age end up in divorce court. CASUAL SEX WILL CLAIM YOU OUT!!! It masculinizes women (as does hip hop), makes them cold and deadens them, and prevents them from achieving a depth of love necessary for many women to ascend.
Also ever since the 50s they have celebrated the "bad boy", and women have sought out bad boys for sex, dirtying them up in the eyes of the elders and corrupting many men in the process, setting the men on the wrong path for life.
Women have a special voice that speaks to them, a voice that illustrates a potential depth of love that makes them the favored gender, and enaging in casual sex will cause that voice to fade until she no longer speaks.
Muslims teach people the correct way to live in regard to women (among other things)::their women cover up their bodies and refuse the use of cosmetics, and it pays wonderful dividends:::faithful husbands and uncorrupted sons.
Men ARE the inferior (disfavored) half and when women wear promiscuous dress the gods will push men into impure (promiscuous) thoughts.
The "stereotype" society ridiculed is true::women CAN corrupt men by how they dress. Because men are easily corruptable. This is a technique they used to eliminate many of the institutions the gods blessed us with, matchmaking being one of them.

The United States of America is red white and blue, a theme and a clue:::.
The monarchical system of the Old World closley replicates the heirarchical system of the Cousel/Management Team/ruling species. The USA deceives peoeple into thinking they have control, and the perception of "freedom" misleads them into the wrong way of thinking. The redeeming element in this environment is the corporate heirarchy which closely replicates the god's. Unions and government jobs are dumping grounds for the disfavored, for they don't prepare people and instead further this misconception of empowerment.
The United States is a cancer, a dumping ground for the disfavored around the world and why the quality of life is so much lower::gun violence, widespead social ills, health care (medication poisons the body and ensures you don't go. You are sick/injured because you have disfavor.).
Over time its citizens interbreed ensuring a severed connection to the motherland.
Over time its citizens interbreed ensuring a severed connection to the motherland.
People came to the Unites States for many different reasons, and each has its own effect:::political strife, religious unrest, crop failure (Ireland's potato famine, which the gods caused) and some left their beloved motherland because they were pushed into desiring a better life::::Greed. And these people were punished by becoming corrupted and preditory. (They share money may not be an issue up there, that money here is merely a tool for corruption. How the gods used greed in the 1980s to create an evil environment supports this.)
If you are a recent immigrant I recommend you return. If that's not possible you need to retain your culture and insulate your children and community from this cancerous environment. They send this clue with Chinatowns across the country, how many Chinese have been here for a century or more yet still retain the old ways, a sign of favor.

If you ever have doubt I would refer you to the Old World way of life:::the elders used to sit and impart wisdom to the young. Now we watch DVDs and use the internet. People would be matched and married by age 14. They village would use a matchmaker or elders to pair young people. Now girls give their precious virginity away to some person in school and parents divorce while their children grow up without an important role model. The peopel used to honor the gods and were rewarded with a high-quality of life for them, their children and their society.

People must defy when asked to engage in evil. The Holocaust taught people the importance of defiance::our grandparents should have defied when asked to ignore the Holocaust and instead reacted with outrage. I suspect some di
her | 10.30.06 - 7:51 pm | #