+J.M.J+

>>>It is unclear whether Catholicism will survive the transition to religion of individual conscience from temporal power, and the prognosis is bleak.... The great monuments of European Catholicism lie exposed like the bones of extinct mammoths, and in Latin America, the mice of American-style Protestant denominations are eating the eggs of the Catholic dinosaurs.

Another premature obit for the Catholic Church. Seems I've heard that tune many times before. Mother Church has survived much worse during the past two millenia, and she will stand.

>>>With its 139 major denominations, America's protean form of Christianity might seem least likely to succeed. In reality, its superficial weakness reveals underlying strength, for American Christians are immune to the blandishments of mere "Christendom" (Soren Kierkegaard's dismissive term for social habit), and better prepared to take the leap of faith. American Christianity is by its nature born-again, evangelical, disruptive, an unending moment of self-conversion.

He forgot to mention theologically chaotic, philosophically shallow, emotionally driven, faddish, commercialized and morally compromising with the larger secular culture (see "Contraception"). The turnover rate of "converts" is significant, with many leaving the movement after about five years, some even sooner than that. Many leave to become Catholic, Orthodox, or just drift into the great American Mush Religion.

I don't quite share Spengler's optimism about Evangelicalism's strength; it will ultimately go the way of mainline Protestantism. May take a few centuries, but it will happen.

In Jesu et Maria,
Rosemarie | Homepage | 11.24.04 - 7:49 am | #

Must share Rod The Mod's- and Spengler's- concerns about Islam. More specifically, because I see this faith's fruits every day. During the mass transit journey each day to Place Of Employment, I pass through a neighborhood with a strong base of Muslim-owned businesses. In fact, the community's one and only supermarket does not sell a single pork product. It is also not uncommon to hear the Muslim call to prayer most afternoons, coming from another retail store in that area. Many other neighborhoods in my City With All Its Works/Pomps have become warzones for young people. Two days ago, a 15-year-old boy was killed and three other kids wounded by gunfire not far from their high school. Four weeks ago, a young father and deacon of his church was slaughtered while attempting to break up a fight among teenagers on his block. Early in October, four children and two women died from an arson-fire in their homes- allegedly in retribution for the matriarch's older son's cooperation with authorities against drug dealers. Our law enforcement, religious and other secular authorities are at their wit's end to stem this tide of bloodshed. Operating from Our Webmaster's edict that Supernature Abhors A Vacuum, the absolutes of Islamic law may find many more local ears to hear its call.
ac
Gerard E. | 11.24.04 - 8:55 am | #

"[T]he great American Mush Religion" -- heh.

I share Mark's concerns. Communism was, for the most part, opposed to family life; Islam is deeply embedded in it. If it were to fail, it would not simply take governments down with it -- insofar as Muslim countries have "governments" rather than domineering cabals riding herd over their territories. Muslims would perceive that their entire way of life was under attack, and would likely resort to extreme measures to defend it. Indeed, what I've just described is the path that most of the jihadis have taken: they're educated and well-traveled enough to know how threatened their civilization is.
Eric Johnson | Homepage | 11.24.04 - 9:06 am | #

To say briefly, the source of bitterness, it seems to me, is a lack of a consistent notion of forgiveness in Islam. That's a useful lesson for Christians who have access to a larger notion of forgiveness. If you don't forgive, the next stop is overweening bitterness.
Fr. Shane Tharp | Homepage | 11.24.04 - 9:43 am | #

I wouldn't say that European communism has quietly snuck away into oblivion yet. Looks like its strong and rather comfy remnants are now disguising as atheistic EU new world orderism. And then we have the power struggle, still, of the old corruptness, with Putin's backing, and the newer democratic leanings in the Ukraine lurking nearby.
chris k | 11.24.04 - 10:16 am | #

Theodore Dalrymple is a useful commentator on this topic. See:

http://www.city-journal.org/ html...when_islam.html

I've found his writing generally clear-eyed and clear-headed.

Credo ut intelligam,

cehwiedel
cehwiedel | Homepage | 11.24.04 - 10:35 am | #

chris k: This business in Ukraine has nothing to do with communism. It is more a legacy of nationalism. Two relatively different east Slavic cultures were slapped together in a Soviet republic and given the "Ukraine" label. The eastern Ukraine has always been in Russia's sphere of influence and Eastern Orthodox. The west of Ukraine had been heavily Catholic, heavily persecuted, and under the influence of Poland and the Austro-Hungarian Empire. This marriage of convenience could not have lasted long with the disappearance of Soviet Commuism and the concomitant revival of religious and cultural freedom.
Mark R | 11.24.04 - 12:21 pm | #

Hey, as an engineer, I see an opportunity to add a few cents to this dicussion.

For most metals, strength, or the ability to withstand a force, can be increased by heat tempering the metal. As the strength increases, ductility decreases - or in other words, the metal becomes more brittle and will fracture more easily. Metals that have been heat tempered (depending upon the level of tempering) typically fracture without much yeilding. When the force becomes too great, they basically snap.

Ductile metals will begin to yeild or bend as they are loaded with increasing force. Now ductile metals can fracture if the force is great enough, but they will first begin to deform and bend before they break.

Kinda cool how life imitates the natural order.
Paul Scheibmeir | 11.24.04 - 12:37 pm | #

Mark R, would you agree that the problems in Ukraine are very much along the lines of this age-old split you point out, and that the present incarnation is Putin (through his surrogate) vs. the West (through its de facto surrogate) and that if Putin's guy wins -- I agree that communism has nothing to do with it -- that Russian dreams of reconstituting the empire are back on?
John Heavrin | Homepage | 11.24.04 - 12:37 pm | #

I think that Putin & Co. are very much aware of the cultural split...there are Ukrainians in the East who have only spoken Russian. Russia has an empire already. If not all of Ukraine at least the Eastern, more Russian portion would be an asset. (I wouldn't object to the East again being a part of Russia, it was quite a blow to Russia losing it.) I can't imagine Putin would want a reconquest. I can imagine some kind of renewed CIS arrangement or some kind of neo-colonialism.
Eastern Catholics abroad had great hopes for Ukraine. Most vocations in the Orth. Ch. in the USSR were from Ukraine. We hoped that with the fall of communism, and with the Catholic Church's influence in Ukraine that more of the clergy throughout the former USSR would be Catholic- friendly or even want to become Catholic. We were wrong in supposing Ukraine a monolith.
Mark R | 11.24.04 - 12:53 pm | #

Chris,

Did you not get the Memo?
Sydney Carton | 11.24.04 - 2:05 pm | #

Oh, he got the memo, but, Chris being Chris...
Dennis_Mahon | 11.24.04 - 2:34 pm | #

Chris is right on one thing, Moslems do view the Koran in a very similar way to how Catholics view the Eucharist. Some would probably react to writing in it in much the same way we would react to someone taking a Sharpie to a consecrated host. I've even seen it argued that protestant Word of God sola scriptura is kind of a "tastes great less filling" version of the Moslem Real Presence in the Koran, something that Wyclif, Luther and co swiped from the Moslems. It is an interesting confluence of ideas, at any rate.
Zippy | 11.24.04 - 2:35 pm | #

Sydney:

A little respect please!

After all, compared to a TRULY awesome thinker such as Chris Sullivan, who is Aquinas anyway?
JG | 11.24.04 - 2:46 pm | #

Agree largely with Spengler's take on Islam. And how he distinguishes it from Christianity.

Disagree with his take on Catholicism. I am surprised that even Uberskeptic Rod Dreher passes in silence over the obituary Spengler writes for Catholicism.

There is a lot more to say here, specifically in regards to the role of the Church in society, especially in regards to what some Thomists like MacIntyre have been saying of late. But that's fodder for another thread.
Richard | 11.24.04 - 3:51 pm | #

JG,

I think St Thomas puts things better than I, which is why I found myself on my kness last night fumbling through my missal searching for his prayer after holy communion.

God Bless
Chris Sullivan | 11.24.04 - 5:20 pm | #

Chris, I'm on your side this time. You hadn't even posted here, and people are mocking you out (note to mockers: Bogus!).
Ed | 11.25.04 - 6:37 pm | #

Ed,

Actually, I'm not sure but I think he did post but had his post deleted (per the Memo to readers with the initials "Christ Sullivan" below).
Publius | Homepage | 11.25.04 - 8:07 pm | #

Publius,

In that case, comes petitioner before His Imperial Majesty begging that posts containing null pointers (referring to deleted posts) be deleted as misleading and disheartening to his obedient commonalty.
Ed | 11.26.04 - 1:51 pm | #

Ed,

We, the august Imperator of Res Publica et Cetera, hereby second thy most wise and sensible motion. His Highness would be well-advised to act on the motion as soon as he returns from his feasting and merrymaking.
Publius | Homepage | 11.26.04 - 2:12 pm | #

Gerard E.

Are you saying that the problems in those neighborhoods are caused my Muslim kids?
Don(Kiwi) | 11.26.04 - 4:18 pm | #