The God I would like to talk to probably would say "get your butt back to Hope...and I'll take care of the rest."
I see the Big Guy as a very patient parent who has to put up with the likes of me, and still loves me enough to take me back as his son after I have really screwed up.
Thanks for the perspective.
tom | Homepage | 12.29.05 - 9:31 pm | #

Well said, Mark.
Kirk | Homepage | 12.29.05 - 9:55 pm | #

Christians (of all stripes) seem often to break down into two basic types: those who regard the grace of God as an expression of the will of a loving God to save his creatures and those who regard the grace of God as a complex system of reducing valves designed to keep out as many people as possible from beatitude.

There's also a third group of Christians who try and make sense of what they know, regardless of whether they end up with a "reducing valve" or not.

My inclination to believe in limbo is not a function of my desire to keep people out of Heaven.
SecretAgentMan | Homepage | 12.29.05 - 10:52 pm | #

Assuming that the quote is accurate -- "Well, we all know that the only people who go to hell are people who aren't baptized" -- this is not saying that all unbaptized people go to hell. It is saying that all baptized people go to heaven!

(Read it again.)

There are some Christians who believe that all non-Christians go to hell (though of course the Catholic Church does not agree). But I have never heard of any Christian who believes that baptism guarantees you will go to heaven, no matter what sins you commit or how much hate you have in your heart!
Lawrence King | Homepage | 12.30.05 - 12:03 am | #

SAM:

I don't much care if people believe in Limbo. I do care when they sound angry and, well, *disappointed* at the thought that they "wasted time" with baptism if it's not automatic Hell for all the unbaptized.

I also get rather worried when their commitment to a theory like Limbo is greater than their commitment to the unity of the Body of Christ. (I don't mean you, obviously.)
Mark P. Shea | Homepage | 12.30.05 - 12:43 am | #

Mark,

Good points all. But by rhetorically splitting Christianity into these two groups you require us to figure out which "side" us limbo-ites are on.

(Figuratively speaking of course; although you have such great power you rarely use it. You're a light-handed Emperor).

I'm just pointing out there's a third group who go where their minds lead them, with malice toward none. Those of us in that group may be dumb, but we're only motivated by what makes sense to us in light of our knowledge (or lack thereof) of the history of Church teaching. How many people go to Hell (or don't get into Heaven) isn't part of the picture.

Personally speaking, I could wish there were no such thing as limbo. (Or Hell, for that matter). And if I were writing Christianity instead of learning it, I'd be happy to go with Origen and let all be saved in the end. I just can't do that for obvious reasons that aren't tied up with anxiety about overcrowding in Heaven.
SecretAgentMan | Homepage | 12.30.05 - 9:25 am | #

I think Lutheran belief about baptism is pretty similar to Catholic belief regarding its efficacy and sacramental nature. Because of the different formulations about justification and salvation, confessional Lutheranism may incline a bit toward what the man in the story said, except that it ties salvation also to faith. Here's from an online version of Luther's Small Catechism:

What benefits does Baptism give?
It works forgiveness of sins, rescues from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare.

Which are these words and promises of God?
Christ our Lord says in the last chapter of Mark: "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:16).

Don't know which subspecies of Lutheran this fellow represents. I was raised Missouri Synod - one of the more conservative branches. The rite for baptism included this statement by the presider: "Whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved. Grant this, Lord, to us all." He may have just run with this, not being too well-versed in all the nuances of Sola Fide.
Gregg the Obscure | Homepage | 12.30.05 - 11:13 am | #

I don't know what Lutheran doctrine actually says about baptism, but having grown up in a Lutheran church I do know what most Lutherans actually believe: baptism = salvation.
Joel | 12.30.05 - 11:55 am | #

From the ELCA website:

In Holy Baptism, God liberates us from sin and death by joining us to the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. Born children of a fallen humanity, in the baptismal waters we become God’s reborn children and inherit eternal life. By water and the Holy Spirit we are made members of the Church, which is Christ’s body. As we live with him and with his people, we grow in faith, love and obedience to God’s will.


ELCA Lutherans believe that baptism addresses itself to the question of salvation. In God’s gift of Baptism we are assured the forgiveness of sins to live a free, responsible and joyful life - in order that we might be saved everlastingly. With Luther we can say that, "No greater jewel ... can adorn our body and soul than Baptism, for through it we obtain perfect holiness and salvation, which no other kind of life and no work on earth can acquire." Baptism is truly God’s gift, drawing us into Christ’s church and bestowing upon us forgiveness of sins and the promise of eternal life. In it, we are marked by the cross of Christ forever.


http://www.elca.org/questions/Re...ts.asp? recid=29
Larry | 12.30.05 - 2:57 pm | #

This fact of Protestantism - that every man is his own pope (and I've been a Protestant, so I can testify) - reminds me, oddly enough, of a Jewish saying: Whenever you have two rabbis, you'll have three interpretations of the Talmud.
Meg Q | Homepage | 12.31.05 - 5:58 am | #

Mark is the smartest guy in the world. In case someone hasn't already made this observation, there is a parable about a vineyard owner who pays everyone the same wage no matter whether they worked all day, half a day or one hour. When the all-day guys complain, he, the boss, tells them: you got what you bargained for and don't tell me how generous I can be. Well, that's my big contribution to the baptism debate. Happy New Year!
Mike Murphy | 01.01.06 - 1:46 am | #

But I have never heard of any Christian who believes that baptism guarantees you will go to heaven, no matter what sins you commit or how much hate you have in your heart!

But isn't that essentially the point of once saved always saved?
c matt | 01.02.06 - 2:37 pm | #

C Matt,

No one is probably reading anymore, but in case you are, I think the answer to your question is a qualified "no." "Once saved, always saved" in its more simplistic formulations seems to grow as you move further away from historical Christianity and particularly sacramental belief, i.e. toward Baptists and so on. In other words, the people who believe it are less likely to put much stock in sacramental baptism, per se.

And vice versa. The justification/salvation question grows more nuanced (and closer to the Catholic view) the closer one comes to historical Christianity within Protestantism, including Lutheranism, where even the in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod I was taught very clearly that faith without works is dead. Lutherans believe in two of the seven sacraments, baptism and Holy Communion. I probably got better catechesis for becoming Catholic in the LCMS regarding the Real Presence than most Catholics my age did. For what it's worth.
Max | 01.03.06 - 10:05 am | #

I got to this too late, I'm afraid, and I rather doubt this will get read.

I don't know what to think about your primary argument. I can't say that I know how the balance of justice and mercy is going to shake out. I am busy enough worrying about my own soul to know how God is going to judge others who don't believe the same things I believe to be true (and therefore don't have a whole lot of use for the sacraments.)

I have to tell you though, that the line about the bride and her husband is still with me days after reading your post - it's a powerful image.
thanks,
ann
ann(-e) | 01.03.06 - 1:02 pm | #