Yay unapproved apparitions of very questionable origin!
I'm confused. First, his next film is supposedly about the Maccabees. Then it's on the Holocaust. Now Medjugorge? I'm beginning to think he really fell off the face of the earth, and people are just making up stories about his next production!
Mel can do better than mine an unapproved apparation for a movie.
My sister used to be a Medjugorge enthusiast and mde the pilgrimage but now no longer talks about it. Is there a growing consensus that it was (is)not genuine? I have always thought that certain aspects were weird, especially our Lady giving political opinions and contradicting a bishop. Any theories on whether it was always a hoax or some sort of self-delusion?
From a Franciscan priest who spent 13 years in Medjugorge, "What is happening there is not supernatural meaning not from God"
To read his explanation and rebuttal re: the visionaries read the front page of the Chicago Tribune Metro section dated Jan 22, 2006
First, his next film is supposedly about the Maccabees. Then it's on the Holocaust. Now Medjugorge? I'm beginning to think he really fell off the face of the earth, and people are just making up stories about his next production!
Lethal Weapon VI. Definitely Lethal Weapon VI.
Ironically it was the footwork & investigations of.....wait for it.....E. MICHAEL JONES who convinced me that Medjugorge is not a true apparition.
Of course I don't dogmatically insist persons must reject the so called apparition. Rather I support the Church's pastoral wisdom of just quietly dropping Medjugorge & letting enthusiasim for it die out.
The late, great English writer Michael Davies also investigated Medjugorge and debunked it in a nice little book.
It means anyone looking for him shouldn't look in California - and he might be hard to contact on a cell phone.
I recomment Randall Sullivan's book The Miracle Detective for a good in-depth look at not only Medjugorge but the Church's procedures for investigating all claimed visions, apparitions, etc. (Sullivan was a real skeptic about miracles and religion in general but became Catholic after writing the book).
Sullivan goes into depth with the whole Medjugorge thing. I came away from the book thinking that it was possible that the initial visions/apparitions were real, but at some point in the process the "seers" started making things up and kept it going "on their own," so to speak. There's a good interview with Sullivan here on Godsy:
http://www.godspy.com/culture/Th...ll-
Sullivan.cfm
Isn't it obvious? He's getting keeping tabs on the Jews in Medjugorje and preparing his putsch against Zionism.
Gibson's new film will be called Apocalypto. The script is entirely in Maya, the language spoken by Mayans. Should be out this year, apparently. See IMDB:
http://imdb.com/title/tt0472043/
So, I guess he could begin his Medjugorj movie after Apocalypto is out.
Sure like to see him do Macchabees!
I believe in Medjugorie!!
More good fruits than a a Georgia peach orchard. Intellectual and Traditional Catholics are the ones that reject it the most, no surprise there. Least likely to have the faith of a little Child, like our Lord said.
God's Peace
yeah those "intellectual" Catholics sure are a bad crowd. we really need to get rid of them right quick.
There is a blog covering news related to Mel's only officially announced next movie, Apocalypto:
http://apocalyptowatch.blogspot.com/
Mel Gibson will be filming Apocalypto in Mexico through May, and then will have to finish post-production work before the planned release date of August 4, 2006. Not much time to visit and/or film a story about Medjugorje.
really? what's your source on that? I had read an earlier release date on IMDB I think...
Intellectual and Traditional Catholics are the ones that reject it the most, no surprise there. Least likely to have the faith of a little Child, like our Lord said.
Men, like fish, need to be caught by the head.
And there is a big difference between having the faith of a child and having a childish faith.
re Apocalypto release date:
several of the movie fan sites have recently updated the date to Aug 4, citing Touchstone. See JoBlow, Comingsoon.net and boxofficemojo.
The official website still says summer 2006. It can't be released much earlier because filming is still ongoing--the trailer was actually shot before anything else.
okay, thank you.
http://www.agendaforprophets.org.uk/
Cancel that. Here's the article:
http://www.agendaforprophets.org...p?
article_id=11
It turns out the whole story is wrong anyway!
So much for fact checking.
Blogs are a wonderful source for news aren't they?
They're certainly a wonderful source for raising hopes and dashing them. 
Rather I support the Church's pastoral wisdom of just quietly dropping Medjugorge & letting enthusiasim for it die out.
Well, rather than have your bubble of personal hopes of personal views on this subject burst, I'd advise you not to pay any attention to the Catholic (and other seekers of faith - all God's children) scene of the multitudes in their enthusiasm that is taking place this June for the 25th, yeah, 25th anniversary of the Medjugorje happenings ... or far better ... don't involve yourself with all of the faithful Catholic pilgrims, including hundreds of faithful priests, bishops, even, gasp, cardinals who will be squeezing into the place, enduring lots of heat and inconvenience; sleeping on the hard ground out in the elements because of their love for the Mother of God, Queen of Peace, and thanksgiving for all of the gifts received over all these years through Her intercession with Jesus; climbing the rugged mountain barefoot in reparation - even while sick or crippled; confessing in unprecedented numbers compared to anywhere else in the world; joining in non-stop praying of the rosary; being healed spiritually and physically - the greatest, like with Jim Caviezel, being conversion. Yes, the Church is anxious to "quietly" stomp such enthusiam for conversion out. Just google "25th anniversary Medjugorje" and see that things will be more than "sold out" - not only at the actual site, but in worldwide local remembrance activities - participating in spirit - through, again, mass, confession, prayer and fasting. Oh, well, I guess the old guys up in the balcony would rather just harrumph rather than join with the action on stage that they witness but go on pretending it's just not there!! Raphael (somewhere up there) good for you - for you, like the blind man who was healed by Jesus and then blamed for sinning for his illness - you have to speak to the fruits you've actually witnessed - and therefore, be truthful and full of hope. And people think we've actually evolved and are different from those ancient times ... not much, I'd say.
ChrisK, I know we've argued over this matter before and I have no desire to do so agian. I just want to say that your particular style of writing and arguing for Medjugorje does very little to dispel the impression that many Catholics have of Medjugorje devotees being irrational, unbalanced, and kind of creepy.
I'm not trying to insult you, but most people, when they read this sort of breathless gushing on behalf of some mystical enthusiasm are seriously weirded out, and for good reasons.
ChrisK, I know we've argued over this matter before and I have no desire to do so agian. I just want to say that your particular style of writing and arguing for Medjugorje does very little to dispel the impression that many Catholics have of Medjugorje devotees being irrational, unbalanced, and kind of creepy.
Thank you for that most considered, Christian? analyzed generalization of millions worldwide. I'll be sure to let them know of your unsavory reaction to their thankful acknowledgment of graces received. We'll also have to change a few enthusiastic witnessing exclamations of the healed within the gospels too! I know that will convince them to rewrite their personal conversions. Tell me one thing that I said that is incorrect, factually, or anything that is against the usual enthusiams written about other such places within Catholic tradition - such as the happenings of the day when occuring in Lourdes or Fatima or Guadalupe - BEFORE Church approval. What is "unbalanced" about those witnesses who experienced healing, conversion, love from others whose love initiated from the love of God?? There are a few, granted in the minority, in these often "heady" blogs, who would also like to be heard and not immediately insulted in pretty ad hominem ways for their enthusiasm of actually witnessing their faith. I'll continue speaking of factual witnessing - not just biased opinion from afar or of a few convenient and repeated anecdotal and limited material. I cannot help your rather vaporal "weirded out" reactions to "enthusiastic" hope-filled declarations that take place universally - that is, if one ventures out of the rather narrow parochial opinions of the analytically limited - but I'll remain happily in the company of the spiritually revived and defend their basis in tradition rather than in the company of the "weirded out" with all that that kind of reaction connotes! If you are offended, gentle person, you might just consider that the minority in these kinds of subjects' comments have even more reason to wear bullet proof vests having experienced prior incoming fire!!! I do not gush. I do repeat, probably, the resulting effects of being with many pilgrims and holy priests who have assisted them, when they were filled with hope again while continuing to deal with, in many cases, every member of their family being hopelessly (by this life) sick, either physically (quadraplegics), mentally (brain tumors), away from the faith, on drugs ... who got nothing more than what their fees for service could buy from the local medical scene or parish "help". They left Medj. with their spirits refreshed - just as so many leave Lourdes, not perhaps with the healing desired, but with the real help that was so desperately needed. I could also speak to those who had real miracles. An older, toughened widow related to me (before I ever knew of Medj. happenings) having had a hard life with an alcoholic husband who committed suicide, son alcoholic for whom she traveled to Medj. in hope of help and daughter she feared would follow husband's example. She told me how she expected to find the house burned down upon her arrival home after her brief spiritual and psychological respite in Medj, from the "crazy" alcoholic son. But to her amazement, she found the son sitting quietly awaiting her return, completely cured from the alcoholism who then began accompanying her to daily mass with determination to continue same. Tell HER not to speak! Tell me and others not to be moved to speak about such wonders! I shall continue. And...it is carried back home and lives on with Marian prayer groups (the real support of our True Faith these days), initiation of Eucharistic adoration, conferences and retreats, etc. It just keeps growing. Good News! Sorry - just close your eyes and skip over me! I wouldn't wish to cause any discomfort - Christ and His witnesses never did same!! But then they experienced lots of shrapnel!
The Mother of God evangilizes when the Church her Son established, fails to do so.
My opinion.
What's all this criticism with people believing in an unapproved apparition?
Over 60,000 people showed up in Fatima! Not by cars, buses etc. but on foot or horses.
I'm sure most of the people responding to this blog would have missed one of the greatest miracles.
Wouldn't be associated with some decieved or insane little children and irrational adults.
Peace.
ChrisK:
Exactly.
Thank you, Daniel, for your new found agreement.
Orthodox Catholics are going deaf. It's through the misuse of sound that the antichrist ultimately will be revealed. And the perfect use of sound will reveal the true God.
Chris K,
I don't think you are creepy or unbalanced; your enthusiasm is contagious and gives me joy. But what about the mother who sits quietly by her dying daughter's bedside, praying the Rosary night and day, and receives the blessed miracle of hope along with the miracle of resurrection? Jesus and Mary are as close to us as a breath of fresh air -- there is no need to travel to a distant site.
Fwiw, the original post is gone, and the blogger has posted a correction.
End of story, I guess.
Psalm 41 - interesting title - prayer of a sick and lonely man,
I don't disagree with you at all, but we have to see the times in which we live. When, as I believe He has, the Father permits His beloved Daughter to be with us, out of His mercy, it is always for a good reason ... and carries many blessings with such a gift. She has often come to us as His prophet - such as at Fatima. She came this time before the coming war in the Balkans as the Queen of Peace, although those in the area did not understand the need in the beginning. She asks, as usual, for more and more prayer for unbelievers and for peace in the world which can only become real when it begins in the heart of each and that can only take place for most through conversion of heart. There are many who were seeking such a gift for the world. There are many who feel called to make the effort in human ways to show their gratitude, specifically acknowledging this gift. There are many who can find no comfort in their living circumstances and need to ask for help. There are many who are moved from "hearing" the graces obtained from others. There are many who have fought the good fight within their own parishes without response and need some refreshment or consolation. I've heard from priests who found themselves weeping after their first visit to Medj when they had to leave because of the faith they witnessed, the quality of confessions they heard, and the world to which they had to return that has become pretty Godless. We're human and thank God He shows us in special ways that we have not been abandoned. As Jesus said, He didn't come for the untroubled or those with strong faith but to help those lacking hope or confused, on the wrong road. Medj, as I've learned, is for all - even those with a strong faith to give even more. Even those who know Jesus is near to them also have moments of doubt, fear, testing - for they do live in a corrupt world - many say a time worse than ever with the thousands of innocent lives taken each day. One can still learn the lessons offered there without being able to go of course. But it's a reteaching of the gospel to those who have wandered away, forgotten the rosary and confession and how to fast or give an offering to God. And it seems that it's always in some little place, away from the "world" that She comes to help us take refuge and be refreshed. To experience such a happening while it is still taking place (as Raphael mentioned above) is a wonder to many. And since it has called people from everywhere, it's also a call to experience that universal unity of faith we lack so much in our divided world and divided church these days. A great video with a wonderful sense of humor for those who wouldn't think of going on such a pilgrimage is one called "No Phones in Medjugorje" by Char Vance of Archbishop Hannan's FOCUS videos. What an unusual and unexpected experience she had! I too was given a gift for making the effort, but I won't bore anyone here with it!!
Chris K,
Thank your for your very persuasive remarks which cause me to vacillate as to the authenticity of this site. I do have problems with the faithful seeking mystical experiences which the "evil one" is very gracious in supplying. Sometimes one will spend a lifetime seeking after these consolations, trying to lead God instead of being led by God. Also, I have a problem with the banal, repetitive, monthly messages that are attributed to Our Lady. But I agree with many of your points, that is, refreshment in this very alien and corrupt world. I would very much like to hear of the gift you received from your pilgrimage.
Well, Psalm 41, since you asked... when I visited Medj in 2001, just before 9/11, I wasn't sure just why I was going. I heard of a pilgrimage that had a very good priest who had been there about 6 times before and was from our area. He was older and had been (still is) very active for years in the pro-life movement, very orthodox, prayerful, with a healing ministry and great sacrificing personality for anyone in need. He heard confessions on cross mountain with the sun rising - wonderful grace filled moments for all. We all shared together our problems, listened to our hostess, Miriana, the first visionary to have her daily visits end after receiving her 10 secrets (the one to announce certain secrets for the public beforehand through a chosen priest), while she served us all humbly and with great patience while caring for her own small children and husband. Our group still keeps in touch through e-mail (we were from all over - lady from Hawaii had her luggage lost so we all shared in keeping her clothed during her stay!) and prays for one another when learning of trials or illnesses being undergone throughout the years via e-mail. We arrived in Medj the day after most of the crowds of pilgrims, there for the 20th anniversary, had left. Ivan, who lives there now in the summer months with his American wife and children - rest of the year in Boston - was there and the pilgrims were invited to attend his daily, nightly apparition taking place that night at the Blue Cross - place of first apparition. We all waited, crowded like sardines on the rocks, singing, praying the rosary...then he arrived and all became quiet. He prayed ... and then, those who could see him below witnessed his total concentration on his vision - speaking silently at times while looking up. Being squished in, I simply pointed my throw away camera up in the air in the vicinity most likely he was looking into. Afterwards, in the evening we gathered for discussion guided by our spiritual director priest and many witnessed phenomena around a full moon. It was simply a beautiful, Spirit filled night. No one was looking for anything, for the Spirit was enough and the love and sharing with one another was our experience of God's love. We had a mixture of people - young guys and girls who had their own unusual happenings - old, crippled, and in between. Just experiencing the tremendous faith of the converted villagers and their openness to all of the "strangers" coming each day is a new thing for many to see. I had been through my own cancer surgery before this trip, at the same time that my mother was dying of the same type of cancer in another state. My neighbor companion had also lost her mother, had also had cancer and other family worries and our initial outlook was one of "what the heck", why not! Although she and a friend we met there did witness the spinning sun while waiting in line for confession, none of us sought out these things. While there a beautiful bronze risen Christ sculpture (the various sculptures from local artist are really beautiful), standing with the cross behind Him lying on the ground, began oozing a sweet smelling oily substance. All of the local people from the surrounding area arrived (they do anyway each evening for mass and rosary) and lined up to gather oil on cloths, etc. Simple faith with its human touch. They call any such extras "kisses" for they seem to be little personal rewards for giving of time and effort to just get there and give of one's self to God's Mother. So we finally arrived home, rather exhausted and still in that "other world" of faith and went off to have our pictures developed. I was thumbing through my photos while my husband was driving when, to his surprise by my exclamations, I discovered that on the photo that had been taken rather randomly in the air above Ivan, I discovered the hazy outline of the Virgin to be revealed in the image of the statue of our Lady of Grace - the one so often associated with Medj and the parish where the orig. pastor had been. Studying it closely one could detect other small images and lights. Another member of our group who has a rather well known website placed it at the top for several days and had many hits of interest. This little "kiss" I shall always cherish personally. Others may think what they will. Thank you, dear Gospa!
Chris,
Thank you very much for generously relating the very moving details of your pilgrimage. May God's blessings flow through you abundantly.
+J.M.J+
>>>Intellectual and Traditional Catholics are the ones that reject it the most, no surprise there. Least likely to have the faith of a little Child, like our Lord said.
St. John of the Cross didn't like any private revelations. Guess he lacked the faith of a little child.
In Jesu et Maria,
Rosemarie: A little light on the analysis of St. John of the Cross, wouldn't you say? Private revelations are to be taken with a very skeptical eye, of course, but you will know them by their fruits. Just ask St. John's friend St. Teresa of Avila. It's premature to speculate on Medjugorje. No one has to believe it, even if the Church gives approval. However, I've seen extraordinarily good fruit coming from that particular place. Chris K, thanks for your beautiful thoughts. I had a very big conversion at Medjugorje. As someone who thinks of myself as somewhat traditional and somewhat intellectual, I would have preferred a more "acceptable" means of conversion. However, God humbles us and I wind up defending an apparition and a place that I would really rather ignore. I have to say that most people I have encountered who have had positive experiences at Medjugorje are not kooks. Not to say they are no unbalanced people who are attracted to alleged apparitions, but, believe me, you can find them in many places in the Church.
Under canon law, the proper authority to speak to the creditibility of the Medjugorje apparitions is the local Bishop (Canon 1419). This is why I am troubled by the way so many followers of Medjugorje are willing to disregard what the local ordinary(ies) have said about matter (the apparitions are not shown to be supernatural).
St. Faustina said that Satan can imitate humility but not obedience. We should submit ourselves in obedience to a Church authority acting in his rightful capacity. If we don't we open the door to Satan.
Personally, no private revelation would ever be worth that risk to me.
+J.M.J+
>>>Rosemarie: A little light on the analysis of St. John of the Cross, wouldn't you say?
If one reads what St. John of the Cross actually said, he used rather strong language and arguments. So I don't see how the analysis is "light".
In Jesu et Maria,
Judith wrote:
"Under canon law, the proper authority to speak to the creditibility of the Medjugorje apparitions is the local Bishop (Canon 1419). This is why I am troubled by the way so many followers of Medjugorje are willing to disregard what the local ordinary(ies) have said about matter (the apparitions are not shown to be supernatural). "
-----------------------------------------
The current status of Medjugorie is
non constat de supernalitate.
This means that there is not any evidence of it being of supernatural nature. It does not however preclude any possibility of it being supernatural, that would be constat de non supernalitate.
So how exactly is anyone being disobedient to the local bishop?
He has not condemned the site, he allows pilgrimidges there. He hasn't fobidden people from talking about it or writing about it on the internet.
Please explain.
To the best of my knowledge, the only thing that has been suggested is, that Priests should not organize and lead pilgrimiges because this would give the appearance of Church approval. Priests may accompany pilgrimidges as a spiritual director
if they are organized by and lead by lay people.
Feel free to correct me if you have evidence to the contrary.
God Bless.
Well, this is surprising. Because the radtrad circles that Mel tends to run in just HATE Medjugorje. They think it has something to do with the charismatic movement, which they totally reject.
I accept the bishops' findings that nothing supernatural is going on there, but reading E. Michael Jones' screeds about Medjugorje first tipped me off that the guy was several bricks short of a load. It's one thing to say that it's not a real apparition and that the seers are suggestible and are imagining things and let it go at that, but E. Michael had stuff saying they were servants of Satan and fascists and Nazis and had broken up marriages and that the apparations were the sole cause of the Bosnian civil war. Geez!!! I mean, it was really over the top stuff.
Verrrrry interesting.
Marty wrote:
Well, this is surprising. Because the radtrad circles that Mel tends to run in just HATE Medjugorje. They think it has something to do with the charismatic movement, which they totally reject.
------------------------------------
Marty, you missed some of the thread.
It is not true that Mel is doing a Movie on Medjugorje.
Once again... the Bishops' ruling is that there is No evidence of supernatural phenomenon, that is very different than saying "There is Not
supernatural phenomenons occuring there"
The difference is very important.
I didn't say he was doing a movie on Medjugorje, just that he was going to a place that radtrads don't approve of. Yes, you are right about what the Bishops said, though. My bad.
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