Does sitting behind fortress walls firing high test cannon shot from the upper battlements count?
Fr. Shane Tharp | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 3:28 pm | #

Does anyone know how accurate those growth figures are? I understand that many millions of Charismatic Catholics and mainline Protestants are also included in the total, so there is some overlap. The difficulty I have is that 580 million figure. Where are they all? Are all the independent churches in Africa and Asia being included to reach that figure?
Arnold | 03.30.06 - 4:40 pm | #

Arnold has a point.

I agree with what Arnold is saying.

In addition, I have found some success in talking with Pentecostals that a strict adherence to the wonderful gifts of the Holy Spirit (speaking in tongues, being "slayed by the Spirit" and so on), while essentially ignoring the other, more mundane aspects/responsibilities of Christianity is akin to trying to survive on a diet of ice cream. It surely does taste good, perhaps better than anything else, but to rely solely upon it tends to weaken the body.
hoody | 03.30.06 - 6:03 pm | #

I hate it when I repeat myself. . . .
hoody | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 6:04 pm | #

As well, why should we rejoice that many people are being led away from the true faith by a false form of it?

Historically, haven't the heathens been more receptive to the true faith than heretics?

Don't get me wrong: ecumenical fellowship is important, especially when we work together for man's common good. But the ultimate end of this ecumenism needs to be the return of these (material, at least) heretics to the Catholic faith.

Let's not forget, too, that a good deal of these Pentecostals are ex-Catholics, and such apostasy does not bode well for the salvation of their souls.
Seminarian Eric | 03.30.06 - 10:32 pm | #

Many Pentecostals also emphasize the Holy Spirit almost to the total exclusion of the Father and the Son. Some have claimed that they are not even Christians in the Trinitarian sense. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Arnold | 03.31.06 - 12:20 pm | #

isn't charismatic movment this bridge between pentecostal and catholics ?
Jb | 03.31.06 - 4:58 pm | #

As a practicing charismatic (and one of these days I'll get it right), I suppose I should weigh in here. Pentecostals are not wrong to be open to the influence of the Holy Spirit and active in His gifts. Focusing on tongues and being slain (not "slayed") in the Spirit ignores the far more substantive gifts of healing, prophecy and words of knowledge that actually do help fellow Christians attain a closer walk with God. True, Pentecostals, like evangelicals in general, deny themselves the sacraments based on Refomation theology. Nevertheless, they are getting something from worship that others don't. And in my experience, while some are indeed "Holy Spirit Unitarians," as has been alleged, others have a full knowledge of the Trinity and strive to walk with Jesus. They need to be loved into the fullness of the faith, not made fun of for their (from the outside) apparently strange practices. Many, many Catholics use the gifts exactly the same way they do.
Michael D. Harmon | 03.31.06 - 5:51 pm | #

And, um, the birthday of Pentecostalism isn't Azuza St. It's, well, Pentecost.....
Michael D. Harmon | 03.31.06 - 5:58 pm | #

As the (Episcopal) bishop of Central Florida put it in a class on Philippians ten or so years ago, there's the fruits of the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit. The gifts of the Spirit are to build the church. The fruit of the Spirit is the character of Christ: hence different gifts for different Christians, but all the fruit for all the Christians.
Ed the Roman | 03.31.06 - 9:57 pm | #

"Some have claimed that they are not even Christians in the Trinitarian sense."

This is not true of most Pentecostals, only of those who espouse so-called Oneness theology, which is just a rehash of Monarchial Modalism.

"And, um, the birthday of Pentecostalism isn't Azuza St. It's, well, Pentecost . . ."

The birthday of Catholic Christianity is Pentecost; Pentecostalism is a heretical form of Christianity founded in the early 1900s.
Seminarian Eric | 04.01.06 - 12:01 am | #

So, heretics and True Christians (tm) exhibit the same gifts. And we tell the difference because the True Christians (tm) did so 2,000 years ago, and the heretics do so today.

Thank you for clearing that up.
Anonymous | 04.03.06 - 11:44 pm | #

I am pretty well able to talk with all of you. I was baptized Lutheran, rebaptized Full Gospel at about the age of 10, drifted away, came back, and fell in among orthodox Episcopalians about 20 years ago, where I still am. But my birth-family relatives are all involved in variations on Pentecostalism.

I haven't researched the membership stats on Pentecostals, but the numbers cited wouldn't surprise me particularly in the 3rd World.

The word "charismatic" is a perfectly good Greek-origin word from the New Testament, it just means "gifted." I have found that Catholics and Anglicans like the word a lot better than actual Pentecostals, who prefer to talk about "gifts" in English for fear you're talking theology at them.

The "Oneness Pentecostals" are an extremely small group, the people in the Assemblies of God, Church of God, etc. probably haven't even heard of them.

If you ever meet a Pentecostal, you should *assume* unless they indicate otherwise that they are Trinitarian, and are at least as close in theology to you as a Southern Baptist or conservative Presbyterian would be.

I would avoid discussions about Benny Hinn if you can help it, though...
mj | 04.04.06 - 8:43 am | #