Maybe we could teach them a good poem. Say, Chesterton's "Lepanto."

Dim drums throbbing, in the hills half heard,
Where only on a nameless throne a crownless prince has stirred,
Where, risen from a doubtful seat and half attainted stall,
The last knight of Europe takes weapons from the wall,
The last and lingering troubadour to whom the bird has sung,
That once went singing southward when all the world was young.
In that enormous silence, tiny and unafraid,
Comes up along a winding road the noise of the Crusade.
Strong gongs groaning as the guns boom far,
Don John of Austria is going to the war,
Stiff flags straining in the night-blasts cold
In the gloom black-purple, in the glint old-gold,
Torchlight crimson on the copper kettle-drums,
Then the tuckets, then the trumpets, then the cannon, and he comes.
Don John laughing in the brave beard curled,
Spurning of his stirrups like the thrones of all the world,
Holding his head up for a flag of all the free.
Love-light of Spain--hurrah!
Death-light of Africa!
Don John of Austria
Is riding to the sea.

www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/lepanto.htm
Sean P. Dailey | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 5:04 pm | #

Mark:
Do you suggest that I not comment al jack's blog? I'm progressively coming to that view that I'm wasting my time and it'll be better spent writing post at my own blog. At the same time, Moslem apolgists like al jack need to be slapped from time to time to remind them that their caricatures of the West and Christanity will be challenged

xavier
xavier | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 5:42 pm | #

On the contrary, comment away. Islam could do with a little fresh air.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 6:47 pm | #

Mark:
Thanks. I'll keep en eye on al jack as he's quite patronizing and quite willing to smear non-Moslems.
So did I misread your original opinion in the post? I understood it to signify that you regarded debating with Moslems to be a bit futile since they won't listen to non-Moslems on common issues like freedom to convert.

Ovr at Amy's blog she posted a news item that the Church will sit down to anayze Islam in Europe throughout the year and the Christian response.
I'm pleased, I would advocate the Church tackle the Koran and apply Catholicism's rich apologetics. Let's see how well the imams rebut without recourse to the bomb, the gun and the sword.

xavier
xavier | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 7:57 pm | #

What I don't understand is this comment that Al-Jack made:

"Now if a man is to proclaim himself a Christian and retain his belief in One God and submit to the will of God as he understands God and makes no spectacle of this so-called conversion and causes no social and family disruption, no harm shall befall him."

Do Muslims think that we are polytheistic? He just described the basis of a Christian life. Should we sit down with a copy of Lives of the Saints and show him how they submitted to the will of God?

"The men calling for the death of that fellow in Afghanistan are indeed worried and upset over the disruption caused. In truth, most of them would not harm this man in person, just as the man who spoke the words I quoted above is not going to proceed to attack the first Muslim he encounters."

Do they think that we don't remember the rioting over a set of cartoons? How many people were martyred during those riots? Is it so hard to believe that there could be one more? It's horrible to have to anticipate the worst that people can do. I remember the beheading of Ron Pearl. What evidence do we have to presume that Rahman wouldn't be killed? Their own holy books cry for the blood of infidels to be spilled.
Staci | 03.30.06 - 9:19 pm | #

Staci:
Yup. The Moslems are shocked by the Trinity and are deeply disgusted by the Incarination The Koran is extremely severely castigates Christians. The origins of the shock and disgust originates from the Moslems' erroronious concept of God.

The second half of al jack's statement refers to Omar's pact. It establishes the Christian and Jewish dimmitude. Of the several prohibitions against Christians is that they can't build or renovate churches without permission (never given) they can't toll the bells, can't chant nor use inscense in churches, can't have public processions.

The pawr Moslems can't tolerate Christians publically practicing their faith as it would cause the latter to question Islam's reasonableness while the smells and bells nauseate them.

xavier
xavier | Homepage | 03.30.06 - 10:26 pm | #

Originally al-jack appeared on The Religious Policeman blog, where he still holds the unofficial title of "resident imam".
However, some people over there are convinced that he is a fraud, a parody, mostly due to his too Arabic-like English. If he is, you have to hand it to him that he is a very persistent and very consistent parody.
Anonymous | 03.31.06 - 2:37 am | #

Sorry, last one was mine.

I should also mention the alternative opinion, that he is too close to the truth to be a parody.
Claire | 03.31.06 - 2:40 am | #

Claire:
He's for real. In any case, I managed to get banned because of some intemperate remarks about the Koran. Too bad because he missed out on a teaching moment to demonstrate the Koran's inerrancy and reasonability
Moslems are unprepared for pointed questions about the Koran and there's no apologetics as such: it's either convert, submit as a dimmi or die.

So the moment that non-Moslem scholars of religion apply the same 'scientific' tools of philology, linguistics, geography, archaeology and history to the Koran as the Bible, the former won't survive the scrutiny. It,s still astounds me that after 1400 years, the Koran hasn't as of yet been subjected to the same rigourous study.
Why do relgious scholar exempt the Koran?
xavier
xavier | Homepage | 03.31.06 - 10:16 am | #

Archaeological and historiographical study of the origins of Islam uniformly point towards the conclusion that Islam's foundation stories are myths composed between 100 and 200 years after the initial Arab victories over the Roman and Persian empires launched their expansionism. There is no contemporary physical or documentary evidence even for the existence of Muhammad. Things like Josephus', Pliny's and Tacitus' writings which document the early days of Christianity from an outsider's perspective simply do not exist. The archaeological evidence suggests that Mecca was of no importance until the late 9th century; and that the early orientation of Islam was towards Jerusalem, strongly suggesting that Islam was synthesised by the new Arab rulers of the Middle East in order to legitimise Arab hegemony and provide a unifying cult for their new empire.

PVO
mulopwepaul | 03.31.06 - 10:53 am | #

I'm sorry, I should have said Mecca was of no importance until the late 8th century, not 9th.

PVO
mulopwepaul | 03.31.06 - 10:54 am | #

A while ago over on Catholic Answers I asked if a Muslim could provide a theological reason for allowing polygamy. I received a very well written document that basically stated that due to war, etc., there were sometimes more women than men and that the O.T. prophets did it, too, so nanana boo boo. When I politely asked for THEOLOGICAL reasons, I was politely told that the aforementioned document was the best he could do.

I think it would be very interesting and informative to engage in apologetic discussions. But will they be willing to do it?
Catherine L | 03.31.06 - 1:52 pm | #

Catherine L:
No but not because they're unwilling, they're simply can't. There's no Islamic apologetics that relies on argumentation, it's based on coercion believe or die unbeliever because the Koran,s message is so straightforward and easy to grasp!
Moslems will simply be outclassed every time when they can't resort to threats

I refer you to my English post at my blog on the Koran, Abdul Rahman and the 10 commandments. There some really serious consequences Islam provokes with respect to its doctrine of revocation and the 10 commandments.
And other tehological issues.
xavier
xavier | Homepage | 03.31.06 - 3:57 pm | #

Catherine,

In an interfaith group on MSN, that I used to belong to, there were mainly Muslims and Christians. Not too many Jews.

The Muslims involved never seemed to read and respond to reasonable requests. When I tried to ask pointed questions, to get them to thinking, it never worked either. It was either talking to a brick wall, or the idea barrier was just too high and too thick to allow for communication.

I wish those who wish to try my blessings.
Anna | 04.02.06 - 8:50 pm | #

Cathrine:
Here's a debate on Moslem charges that Christians corrupted the:

Bible

xavier
xavier | Homepage | 04.02.06 - 10:47 pm | #

Dialogue involves reciprocity. People who think they already possess perfection have little need so such an exercise.

When you've ingested supremacist arrogance, beginning with mother's milk, there's no propensity to even admit the "other" may have something valuable to say.

We're talking about a culture that views the lewd, obscene and ostentatious moral exhibitionism so characteristic of islamic attire as "modesty" or "purity".

It is, of course, quite the opposite.
John Palubiski | 04.03.06 - 10:50 am | #