Another great post on Gibson Mark! Thanks!
Bravo. Sensible and correct.
Great post. As Pilate said, "Ecce homo."
I still think there is an individuality that needs to be expressed. You last post seemed to capture that. This one seems to leave the impression we are all like Jesus and therefore all the same.
The terminology around human nature is hard. We are talking about things that run so deep. Which is deeper? Which contains the essense of who I am? People are going to use the same words for differant things.
Perhaps one of those Mayan gods took hold ... ya think?
More likely the demons he fights have been instilled through his being raised with the unbalanced views and outbursts of his own father. While trying to be his own person, Mel has to answer constantly for his father's, not wishing to be unfaithful to the love he must have for him. He's caught between loyalties and loves.
Just watching Mel in his various interviews during TPOTC controversies, he so often appeared like some wild kind of animal who has been cornered and wishing to break out. So, if people are shocked at this kind of wildness today, they've had some unrealistic view of the troubled man. This, though, may only add to the box office value of Apocalypto!
Mark said: I have a feeling this post will generate more questions than it answers, but there you are.
G.K. Chesterton said, "The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man." (Introduction to the Book of Job, fittingly enough)
Another good analysis, Mark. 
K the C's mistake is to assume that interior sins such as sins of the mind are revelatory of our nature. They are not. They are betrayals as much as any other sin. Jesus Christ is revelatory of our redeemed nature.
Wrong. I never said anything about the relationship of interior sins to our nature. Never once. I defy you to find such a statement.
Mel Gibson is not sinful by nature. Mel Gibson has revealed himself to harbor anti-semetic thoughts. Get it?
K the C, in case you are an accomplished Legilimens, you have no idea whether Mel Gibson harbors anti-Semetic thoughts. Get it?
Fine, K of C. Let us assume that Gibson harbors these thoughts. Let us in on yours.
Any latent racism? Anti-Semitism? How about fantasizing about hurting others? Sexual deviancy?
I seriously doubt that you can claim to be free from all of these thoughts, or others that the current regnant cultural constituency considers anathema. What does that then make you?
Gibson was a fool for drinking, moreso in that he knows it's a problem for him. As for any peeks we may have had into his Id for that lapse in judgement. . .I suggest we all get over it. We should all be thankful that the various beasts that occasionally lurk within our breasts are known only to ourselves.
K the C:
Since that is what I was talking about, and you declared me to be be "making excuses" then I took you at your word. If you are not addressing what I said, then perhaps you should not go around claiming that you are addressing something I said.
Randy,
Yeah, I think the problem I have when discussing "human nature" is more terminology than anything else. When I see the phrase "human nature," I read it as "general human behavior" instead of something like "body and soul before the fall."
The first means that we're talking about concupiscence. The second means we're not.
Sean:
You're late to this conversation, and I'm not going to waste space repeating myself.
A man whom many have suspected for a long time of being a closet anti-Semite gets drunk and spews anti-Semitic venom, and the Passion fanboys construct convoluted arguments to explain that, no, it is simply impossible that Gibson is an anti-Semite, because Demon Rum makes you act in ways completely at odds with your hidden desires.
Oh, and when in doubt, slander the Pope.
Mel Gibson has revealed himself to harbor anti-semetic thoughts. Get it?
Right. And he has repudiated those thoughts. So your point is what? That what he said when drunk is revelatory but what he says when sober is a cover up? This appears to me to fit precisely the point I was trying to make: that what we do in command of our faculties matters much more than what we do when drunk, panicked, or angry. Oh sure, these states will show what *sort* of concupiscence we wrestle with. But concupiscence is not sin, unless you are a Calvinist. In the Catholic tradition, it is the "tinder for sin" which, if successfully resisted, is the battlefield upon which we win merit for virtuously fighting against our own evil inclinations. When we give in to concupiscence (as Gibson did) we are to own up to it, confess it, and move on. Since he's done this, I don't see why he shouldn't be forgiven.
"Since he's done this, I don't see why he shouldn't be forgiven."
Sadly for us, true forgiveness is a difficult act to complete for various reasons given our limitations and shortcomings with our pride.
Sadly for us, true forgiveness is a difficult act to complete for various reasons given our limitations and shortcomings with our pride.
C.S. Lewis once pointed out that the obligation of forgiveness is the most unpopular Christian moral teaching.
'Zacly, Mark!
Perhaps Gibson has harbored anti-Semitic thoughts/opinions. Perhaps we've witnessed the beginning of his change of heart & he'll now confess & amend his life.
K the C seems to think we shouldn't allow for that possibility, that we're making excuses for the excuses Gibson has made for himself. Such as:
". . . because Demon Rum makes you act in ways completely at odds with your hidden desires."
But nobody said that, K! Nobody! Lease of all Gibson. If that's what you got from either of Mark's posts, perhaps you should re-read them, brother.
Gibson made a strong statement against his words & actions. Frankly, since none of us have the ability to read his heart, that's all we have to go on. That & prayer for him. Me? I'm going to remember him when I go to adoration of the Blessed Sacrament this Wednesday evening. Seems he needs the prayers more than the accusations.
Why are you so adamantly against Gibson on this, K? Do you believe he can't change what you perceive to be his anti-Semitic ways? Do you believe this discredits anything positive he's ever done? Do you think he's not deserving of God's love, mercy, & forgiveness?
Criminey, K. I shudder to think how you'd react if a dear friend or family member were to become an addict of any kind (may God forbid)!
BTW, K . . . what are your views on someone like George Wallace? He was a strict segregationist & ran on that platform in the 1972 presidential election. He wanted to end desegregation in the South.
Then he had a radical conversion to Christ. Here's a quote from a Wikipedia article on him:
"He said that while once he had sought power and glory, he realized he needed to seek love and forgiveness. It was because of this change in his worldview that Wallace realized the harm his earlier segregationist rhetoric and views had caused. His final term as Governor (1983–1987) saw a record number of black Alabamians appointed to government positions.
Are we not to accept that former Govenor Wallace was able to change in his heart? Are we always to think of him as a racist & segregationist?
I'll bet there are quite a number of civil rights supporters with whom Wallace marched in support of later in his life who would say differently.
Perhaps some day, the Anti-Defimation League will say the same about Gibson.
If the forgiveness & mercy of God is in their hearts.
And just to add some context, Hitchens has spoken:
http://www.slate.com/id/2146880/...46880/?
GT1=8483
Warning: Not easy reading.
I would just note for the record that Mr. Gibson's repudiation of, and apology for, his outburst has been deemed inadequate by the usual suspects.
The smear machine is creaking into motion, as witnessed by this Christopher Hitchens article:
http://www.slate.com/id/2146880/...46880/?
GT1=8483
I don't have time for extended comment upon it, but note this characterization:
"... it has been obvious for some time to the most meager intelligence that he is sick to his empty core with Jew-hatred.
This is not just proved by his twistedly homoerotic spank-movie The Passion of the Christ, even though that ghastly production did focus obsessively on the one passage in the one of the four Gospels that tries to convict the Jewish people en masse of the hysterical charge of Christ-killing or 'deicide.' "
So, as we were informed when the _Passion_ was in the process of being released, the _real_ issue is that "the Gospels (and by implication, all Christians, and Catholics in particular) are inherently anti-Semitic".
When the pogroms confidently predicted by ADL failed to materialize, that organization was publicly embarassed. Unfortunately, Mr. Gibson's remark handed them the oportunity to renew the previously interrupted propaganda campaign. Conveniently, too, at a time when it is necessary to rehabilitate Israel's reputation after the tragedy in Qana.
Pat Buchanan similarly embarassed the Simon Wiesenthal Center by showing conclusively that John Demjanjuk was wrongly accused of being a particularly vicious concentration camp guard. He, too, was smeared as an anti-Semite, a charge which did his quixotic presidential campaign (he won the New Hampshire GOP primary, you may recall) no good. But these people are tenacious, and Mr. Demjanjuk now stands accused of being a _different_ concentration camp guard.
Apologies, no matter how sincere, are never enough to obtain forgiveness from this crowd.
Sorry for the duplication, Ryan. I was writing while you were posting.
Wow, Ryan. That Hitchens screed makes K the C look like a choirboy.
Once you scroll through each and every vituperative line (dripping with outright hate) that basically boil down to "he's a bad actor, worse director, he made a homoerotic movie about Jesus, he never condemned his father in public like everybody said he should have..." etc. etc....
We come to the money quote from Hitchens:
"...it should be added that he spoke this way BECAUSE OF HIS RELIGION, not just his warped personality."
I think that just about sums up where Hitchens is coming from, doesn't it? And he's not talking about Mel and/or his father's radtrad choices.
He means Christianity in general folks. No booze talking here.
Can't wait for Frank Rich to weigh in...(he probably threw a party to celebrate).
". . . he made a homoerotic movie about Jesus . . ."
! ? In Hitchens' sad, twisted dreams! I just can't read that man's writing.
It's cool, JJG.
You have to give it to Hitchens - he puts the virtues of faith, hope, and love that Mark and others are trying to apply to this truly awful situation in crystal clear perspective.
Thanks, Ryan, for your forgiveness .
I think Mark sums it up best in this line:
"But never does sin *name* us. It is not Who We Are. Rather, it destroys and distorts who we are."
Coupling that idea with the humility to admit our own failings when we analyze others' faults would go far toward making peace in this poor old conflict-ridden world.
Bravo, bravo, bravo Mark.
This post is the quintessence of Christianity.
I've become the whipping boy here for all the Passion fanboys who think it's just a coincidence that Mel Gibson, long suspected to be an anti-Semite, went on an anti-Semitic rant. I'll try to respond to the criticisms, good faith or not.
First, "hoody" brings out the "judge not, lest ye be called a 'chickenhawk' argument": Fine, K of C. Let us assume that Gibson harbors these thoughts. Let us in on yours. Any latent racism? Anti-Semitism? How about fantasizing about hurting others? Sexual deviancy?"
"Yes" to all. You have no idea how often I sin. I am convinced that I am the single worst Catholic in the entire world. I've broken all ten Commandments on the same day. I've committed moral sin in the confessional. I cannot go more than one waking hour without mortal sin. I've committed sins that are difficult to confess because they don't even have easy names. They're going to have to add a new circle to Hell for the stuff I've done. I could confess every sin with my last breath and I'd manage to commit mortal sin before I expired.
Okay?
Most of these sins are in my heart. But if I get drunk and grope a woman, I won't insult everyone's intelligence by saying "I never found her attractive" when I sober up. That's what Gibson has done. He said "I acted like a person completely out of control when I was arrested, and said things that I do not believe to be true and which are despicable." That's horse hockey. He believed every word of it, just as I believed every stupid-ass thing I've said when drunk.
Gene Branaman asks me what I think of George Wallace.
Well, George Wallace admitted to being a racist. Gibson has not admitted to being an anti-Semite. He's admitted to saying anti-Semitic things, but he also says that he doesn't believe them to be true. If you believe that, I've got a bridge I can sell you. No, of course Gibson doesn't believe what he said. It was just a random coincidence that anti-Semitic statements came out of his mouth.
Mark, if Mel Gibson wrote a response to one of your posts, would you have him removed, and would you afterwards spread calumny to your readers about how he's a closet Nazi?
Or do you only accord such treatment to non-celebrities?
Remove this comment, and you've only answered my question.
Finally, there's the standard line, in this combox and the other one, that I'm some sort of unforgiving bastard. Not so. As I said above, I'm probably more in need of mercy than anyone.
But look, Gibson's apology is garbage. He didn't admit to being an anti-Semite. He's not sorry for being an anti-Semite. Contra Mark, his apology is nothing more than "it was the booze talking." Gibson's asking us to believe that he never believed a word of what he said. He didn't believe a word of it. It was the booze.
I have the stones to admit that I sin of my own free will. But when Gibson blames the bottle, asking the rubes to believe that he never meant what he said, Mark applauds.
Finally, there's the standard line, in this combox and the other one, that I'm some sort of unforgiving bastard.
I don't think you're an unforgiving bastard.
He's not sorry for being an anti-Semite.
I do marvel at your mind-reading abilities, though!
So Gibson's headed off to rehab. What a unique response to a public display of asshole-ness. It wasn't me! It was the liquor!
What's the over under on the number of weeks until he appears on Oprah?
I do marvel at your mind-reading abilities, though!
I know sin. Sin and I are pals from way back. We go together like rama lama lama ka dinga da dinga dong. If you can name a sin, I've probably committed it within the past week. As I said earlier, they don't even have names for a lot of the stuff I do. I laugh at how sinful devout Catholics think they are, because I've got them all beat. God will have to build a new wing in Purgatory for me, but I'm probably going straight to Hell, and I deserve it. I'm addicted to sin and cannot break free.
But I do what I can to give God the Glory that He deserves, and that means I end up apologizing a lot. And so I know what an apology looks like. And Gibson's apology is just the kind of thing I would do if I was trying to talk myself out of a problem without admitting to anything.
K, you're the fellow who last spring was ranting on about how the Catholic Church's Good Friday liturgy contains anti-Semitic elements, so I'm not really inclined to give you any credence whatsoever.
And as I said above, unless you are an accomplished Legilimens, you have no idea whether Mel Gibson harbors anti-Semetic thoughts.
Hold on, now. Someone actually doubts that Gibson harbors anti-Semitic thoughts? Those are some serious blinders you're wearing.
Sean:
I believe that the Reproaches have vestiges of the ugly, pre-Vatican II anti-Semitism present in the Good Friday liturgy. I don't know why you think that disqualifies me from any discussion of Catholic matters. I don't know why you're so hung up on that. It's truly weird. My views are not that far out of the mainstream. Moreover, the Reproaches are not mandatory; my parish omits them. You're free to find a parish where they are recited. Knock yourself out.
If you want to argue that with me, either email me, or find another place to do it. Don't clog up this discussion. And don't pretend that a difference of opinion on a debatable collateral matter disqualifies me from this discussion.
Someone actually doubts that Gibson harbors anti-Semitic thoughts?
Well, that would depend on how strongly you mean to use the term "harbor." By all means, I concede that he has anti-Semitic thoughts. I can't say I do, but I admit to having some racist thoughts sometimes.
But to harbor them, in the sense of providing them safe shelter, is another thing. Who is to say that he doesn't struggle against them instead? And if he does, it is unsurprising that he fails in that endeavor when inebriated.
So no. He may have anti-Semitic thoughts. But to all him an anti-Semite, to suggest that those thoughts define him, goes further than is possible without a window into his soul.
Oops, hit the button to soon. Like I said, I have racist thoughts sometimes. I reject, however, the notion that I am a racist, because of the way I attempt to deal with such thoughts.
Isn't it just that people suspect that Gibson is just PRETENDING to repudiate his anti-Semitism because it "isn't allowed"?
'In vino veritas' isn't exactly Calvinism, after all.
I suppose that we should take people at their word and Mark's take on "wrestling with demons/yet remaining true to family" covers the ground better and more sympathetically than anything else I've read.
But oftentimes I find myself unable simply to take people at their word and I suspect most of us do. We have all heard apologies that we take to be "insincere", though some of us are far to ready to come to that conclusion.
I don't think, no matter how drunk I got, I would spout anti-Semitic nonsense or racist canards. Because, I really don't believe them. I myself find "anti-Semitism" and "racism" to be troubling and personally offensive, but I doubt that they are any worse than a whole caboodle of other sins that get overlooked or sneezed at by many of us. And I don't think Mel's movie was anti-Semitic, unless the Gospels are. So...I have no trouble in forgiving him.
The figure of forgiveness and empathy. Mark Shea.
Mark Shea. Read Bill Donohue and see if your initial commentary closely resembles that of Abe Foxman.
Speck. Beam. Eye. Perhaps sometimes you should just shut up. That thought ever cross your mind?
July 31, 2006
MEL’S ENEMIES LACK FORGIVENESS
Catholic League president Bill Donohue commented today on the furor over the comments Mel Gibson allegedly made after his arrest for drunk driving Friday morning:
“What Mel Gibson apparently said is indefensible. The remark attributed to him, ‘The Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world,’ is anti-Semitic and irresponsible. Fortunately, he has apologized for his bigoted outburst. Unfortunately, his apology is being rejected by some who should know better. To wit: Abraham Foxman, head of the Anti-Defamation League, has branded Gibson’s apology ‘unremorseful and insufficient.’ Moreover, Foxman concludes that it shows what a ‘sham’ it is for Gibson to portray himself as the ‘tolerant, loving person’ who made ‘The Passion of the Christ.’
“We have quite a file on Ted Turner at the Catholic League. Unlike Foxman, I have accepted every apology Turner has ever made for his anti-Catholic outbursts, all of which were made while he was sober. Indeed, I even went so far as to say that ‘no one in his right mind’ would ever put Ted Turner ‘in the same camp with a Klansman or an inveterate bigot.’ More recently, when radio shock-jocks Opie and Anthony apologized for their orchestrated anti-Catholic stunt in St. Patrick’s Cathedral a few years back, I not only accepted their apology, I was the first guest on their new CBS radio show and welcomed their return.
“But Mel’s enemies will never cut him a break. Their real goal is to discredit ‘The Passion of the Christ,’ and that is why their propaganda machine is in full gear. Never mind that Mel has said that ‘Anti-Semitism is not only contrary to my personal beliefs, it is also contrary to the core message of my movie.’ How ironic it is to note that the core message of his film—forgiveness—is sorely lacking in his critics.
“In 2003, Roman Polanski, the convicted child rapist, received a standing ovation when he won an Oscar for ‘The Pianist.’ Nice to know what really offends Hollywood
"A man whom many have suspected for a long time of being a closet anti-Semite gets drunk and spews anti-Semitic venom"
That should read something like "A man whom many have condmened previously w/o proof as being an antisemite
[inappropriate term anyway], will now condemn him on the basis of drunk driving."
What strikes me as funny is that it is this incident which seems to confirm that TPOTC was inherently anti-Judaic, as if the matieral from the movie itself was inconclusive without statements from the director. Is the "real" conent of a movie knowable only through the opinions of the director?
I could be wrong.
Bill Donohue's commentary is nonsense. He believes the ADL's Abraham Foxman is wrong not to accept Gibson's apology. He attempts to show the correctness of that position by referring to a standing ovation given to Roman Polanski at an Academy Awards ceremony.
Huh?
Since Donohue's using red herrings, why not throw a Bill Clinton reference into the mix and really get right-wing blood boiling?
>Mark Shea. Read Bill Donohue and see if your initial commentary closely resembles that of Abe Foxman.
Brian Mershon your as clueless as Foxman. I see NOTHING in ANYTHING Mark has swritten that is at odds with the sentiments of Dr. Donohue. His resonse is NOTHING like foxman's. Are you EVEN paying attention?
Smeghead!
>Mark Shea. Read Bill Donohue and see if your initial commentary closely resembles that of Abe Foxman.
BTW Brian would it KILL clueless trads of your type(i.e. the READY! FIRE! AIM! type that is) to make a less ambigous charge against a fellow Catholic? It's called "citing specifics" try looking it up in the dictionary sometime.
PS. Save the "OH YOU BAD NEO-CATHOLICS ARE ALWAYS PICKING ON THOSE LOVE TRADITION & STICKING UP FOR THE JEWS" mojo I know is going to come next from you. It's getting old. Find someone else to nail you up on your cross buddy!
Geez!!!
PPS. Wild Bill at the Catholic league RULES!!!!
Local man
You left out the fact Bill has accepted the apologies of no less than Opie & Anthony who staged a public sex act in St Patrick Cathedra. that is worse than if they merely said "F-bomb the Catholics the Vatican is responsible for all the wars in the World."
You selectively ignore Bill's strongest arguments for some of the lesser tangent ones. Not impressed.
BTW Mershon,
Mark wrote:
QUOTE"It's a pleasure taking weekends off, if only because it spared me the trouble of having to make snap adjudications of the state of Mel Gibson's soul after his drunken tirade against Jews as so many combox denizens have spent the weekend doing. Perhaps my favorite bit of "Nope. Not good enough. Now let me see him crawl" Christian charity came from this comboxer over on poor Amy's blog:
I don't know how I feel about this other than I get tired of people who continue to engage in inappropriate behavior and then expect that an apology will fix it.
When I read things like this, I always wonder a) what exactly would satisfy this sort of person; b) if this person has *never* been to confession for the same sin twice and c) if this person has never known *anybody* who struggled with addiction......
Sin is the mask. It is not what names us but what makes us anonymous. Sin, because of the fall, is normal. But sin is never "natural". It does not constitute who we are, it *destroys* who we are. It is when the human person takes his place as the redeemed creature God made him that we begin to truly see his face and know his name.
And so, to Mel Gibson. Gibson tells us, "I acted like a person completely out of control when I was arrested, and said things that I do not believe to be true and which are despicable." It seems to me that we have a basic choice: to believe revelation or to believe Freud.END QUOTE
Do tell us Mershon what part of this resembles Foxman's refusal to grant forgiveness?
I'm gonna let Rosemarie hose me down now. I trust my point was made.
What the heck is Brian M talking about????
Marks' comments dovetail perfectly with Donohue's, and both of them are right on.
K the C persists in wanting to call Gibson an anti-Semite for some reason. If someone has anti-Semitic thoughts that they struggle with, and know are wrong, but which surface when the person is drunk and his inhibitions are down, is that person an anti-Semite? As a friend of Mel's is reported to have said, he is not an anti-Semite when he is sober, but he is when he's drunk. From my standpoint, the charitable thing is to not judge someone ( as opposed to judging their actions) based on what they do when they are drunk and out of control. However, there is a certain amount of semantics going on here- if a man commits adultery while drunk but not while sober, is he an adulterer? Technically yes, but that may be a temptation that he struggles with successfully all of the time when he is in control. There is an old off-color joke, the punch line of which goes, "gee, you suck one c**k and what do they call you?" Are we idnetified by what we desire and think when we are not in control, or when giving in to temptation? Or are we what we are when we are in control and successfully resisitng tempation? Or are we both? Does it help to identify someone with their sin when they lose the battle with it?
A curious thing to me is people who do not want to accept Mel's apology which seemed to me to be honest, forthright, contrite, and accepting of responsibility. And then he gets bashed for saying that he will go into Rehab to get help for his alcoholism. What more do they want?
""But look, Gibson's apology is garbage.""
Fortunately, Mr. Gibson will be judge by SOMEONE far greater than any of us commenting here.
I'll be the first to admit when I heard about the anti-Semitic remarks my first reaction was to trash our TPOTC DVD. Rosemarie clear headed woman that she is stopped me.
But reading Mel's apology set me straight. Foxman is clueless for not seeing it. A true Radtrad could not make the apology Mel made. A true Radrad would spin conspiracy theories about the Jewish Police officer who reported Mel's remarks & there coverup to the media being a plant of the ADL. A true Radtrad would make excuses about the remarks saying "But Jews are really causing wars look at Israel!". A true radrad would take some embarassing and anacronistic anti-semitic remark made by a Church Father or Pope try to portray it as part of Catholic tradition.
A true Radtrad expresses no shame over anti-Semitic remarks & DOES NOT believe them to be dispicable.
That is the moral difference between Mel Vs. a true radtrad. I forgive Mel. I pray God forgives us all.
This article speaks to something much more serious than remarks spewed forth when not completely under one's own willpower:
http://www.deadlinehollywooddail...s-a-death-wish/
The whole Passion phenomena reported to have occurred during filming speaks to the response by evil to this public display of the sacrifice by God's Son for the world. It doesn't sound like those demons are leaving the man alone. Human weaknesses are known to be used by evil, esp. when one is under the influence beyond one's immediate control. The man was raised with a foundation of unbalanced and self anointed approaches to current affairs as well as to history. That was his natural inheritance. It would seem that he was trying to overcome that established background in himself. This article shows to what degree the inner conflict has driven him. With the alcoholics I've witnessed in my past work, I've heard all kinds of verbal horrors that are not expressed in the sober state. Frankly, it often seemed that alcohol opened the doors for real demonic suggestion and partial control of the individual without his/her senses. Troubled people, esp. those trying to remain in the struggle need our prayers and not more efforts to add to what weakness and evil already command.
I believe that the Reproaches have vestiges of the ugly, pre-Vatican II anti-Semitism present in the Good Friday liturgy. I don't know why you think that disqualifies me from any discussion of Catholic matters.
Believing that the Catholic Church -- whether pre- or post-Vatican II (as if that makes any difference) -- could ever promulgate an anti-Semetic liturgy qualifies you as a true moonbat nutjob and dissolves any credibility you might have in any discussion about Mel Gibson and his behavior last weekend. If the Catholic Church could promulgate an anti-Semetic liturgy, then my hair follicles are anti-Semetic too.
Far from "clogging the discussion," it brings it to a point. It shows what a hypersensitive asshole you really are. So the Reproaches don't exactly show the Chosen People in a good light. Big deal. Neither does much of the Old Testament, if it comes to that. There are repeated tales of betrayal, infidelity, idolatry, blasphemy, all committed by the Jews, and the punishments they suffered for such sins. For that matter, the Gospels are an anti-Christian diatribe, as they show the first twelve bishops of the Church in the worst light imaginable: betrayal, craven cowardliness, jealousy, stupidity, scepticism. Just get rid of the whole Bible! It's all hate speech!
You go on and on about how Gibson was for years "suspected of bein an anti-Semite," as if that is enough to convict a man. The Sanhedrin "suspected" Jesus of being a blasphemer. Does that make him a blasphemer? The Sanhedren at least had the decency to hold a trial, albiet one with a foregone conclusion. You don't even have that much decency. For you, Gibson is tried, convicted and awaiting sentencing based on nothing but a suspicion.
Some deep thinker you are.
"Foxman is clueless for not seeing it."
I suspect he's not clueless. He has been handed a nice PR issue for which to use in fundraising for his job.
A second statement by Mel Gibson:
http://www.drudgereport.com/flash3.htm
I think K of C is wrong in his assessment of Gibson's apology. That said, from the tenor of his posts it seems he may be struggling with his own demons, some of which may be contributing to that false assessment. Whether he's indeed struggling to overcome slavery to serious sin or whether he's struggling with scruples that lead him to exaggerate the weight of his sins, let's be Christ to him, both in truth and in charity. He, like all of us, is in a fight for his life.
Wow, feel the hate!
Odd that you call me a "moonbat." Since you seem to have a photographic memory of statements that I made months ago, you will doubtless know that I'm quite politically conservative. That pretty much disqualifies me as a "moonbat."
I live in an area and work in a field with many Jews. I've always been sensitive to acts and words that could be construed as anti-Semitic, even if not intended to be. I'm very sensitive to the concerns that Jews have about Christian creed, code, and cult.
Nevertheless, I don't see anti-Semitism lurking under every rock. I didn't really care for TPOTC, but I defended it against allegations that it was anti-Semitic. I defended Gibson against the charge that he was anti-Semitic. And as conservative who strives to be a good Catholic, I don't think the state of Israel was immaculately conceived and preserved from sin.
But if you think that the pre-Vatican II Good Friday liturgy wasn't tinged with anti-Semitism, then I'm sure you still happily pray for the "perfidious Jews."
>For you, Gibson is tried, convicted and awaiting sentencing based on nothing but a suspicion.
I reply: You tell em Sean! You go dude!
Convicting people (especially Jews) based on nothing but a suspicion is the way of the Jew Baiting Radtrad.
Sean P. Dailey hits it on the head every time he has replied on this thread.
My only addition is that the term Anti-Semitic to describe all of the import of Pre-Vatican II Good Friday Liturgy is a bit much. Perhaps, however, this response will prove that I too harbor Anti-Semitic thoughts.
Legilimens will not work on me, however, as I am a very practiced occlumens. So you will just have to take my word for it.
I'm not an admirer of Mel Gibson's movies and it's obvious that he's struggling with his demons (like we all do.) Nonetheless, he apologized for what he did and publicly assured everyone that he is not an anti-Semite. We should take him at his word and move on.
In any event, the merit of Mel Gibson's art stands independently from Mel Gibson the person. We should not conflate the art with the artist. The private lives of Graham Greene and Dostoyevsky were not particulary admirable, but they wrote great books that we as Christians admire for their insight.
I just read Mel's second statement! WOW!!!!!!!
If Foxman can't forgive that then the man has no soul.
For you, Gibson is tried, convicted and awaiting sentencing based on nothing but a suspicion.
Right. We have "nothing but a suspicion" that Gibson is an anti-Semite. This is beyond parody. What, exactly, is it going to take for you guys to be convinced that someone is an anti-Semite? Is there anything Gibson could do to convince you that he's an anti-Semite?
For you, Gibson is tried, convicted and awaiting sentencing based on nothing but a suspicion.
Right. We have "nothing but a suspicion" that Gibson is an anti-Semite. This is beyond parody. What, exactly, is it going to take for you guys to be convinced that someone is an anti-Semite? Is there anything Gibson could do to convince you that he's an anti-Semite?
Ben, I'm with you here.
Only a Catholic could have uttered the words ascribed to Mel. Sorry, but in no other religion could such an apology have been produced.
Even that statement won't be enough for some people, for some reason.
"He's admitted to saying anti-Semitic things, but he also says that he doesn't believe them to be true. If you believe that, I've got a bridge I can sell you. No, of course Gibson doesn't believe what he said. It was just a random coincidence that anti-Semitic statements came out of his mouth."
You forgot you end sarcasm HTML, K. Gibson apologized. And, now, has clarified that apology. Why? 'Cos Abe Foxman is hell bent (yes, I chose those words carefully) on seeing Gibson & TPOTC totally discredited. Bill Donohue is right on the money here.
So Gibson releases a second statement that David linked above from Drudge. What thinks thou now, O great K the C? Do you still think Gibson's not worthy to be forgiven? Can you still see into his heart & know that this is all smokescreen?
And the point about Wallace (which you totally missed in your anti-Mel zeal) was this: Every person on this earth can avail themselves of the mercy of God. Every. Person. The first shall be last & the last shall be first. It's better if folks confess their sins & amend their lives sooner rather than later but at least in Gibson's case, it's happening. Praise God!
In another thread I speculated that this may be the incident that causes Gibson to confront these feelings & work to resolve them. Seems as if he will. We can only pray that he does - & we should, rather than berate him & vilify him.
Add to that Chris K's excellent point that Gibson & the TPOTC production had been hounded by Satan in various ways & you can begin to see what he's been going through. Can't we, as Christians, cut the man some slack? Can't we treat him as we ourselves would like to be treated?
"Even that statement won't be enough for some people, for some reason."
Apparently not. Notice the lack of responses from K the C re: Gibson's second statement.
I'd also like to add to what I wrote above that, ultimately, this is between Gibson & God. Period. We simply do not need to know the gory details of whatever demons Gibson is dealing with. Just as I - being the nobody I am - do not need to spew to everyone here details about my sins, be they peccadilloes or of a graver nature. Why, K the C, is it necessary that you know (or think you know) exactly what is in Gibson's heart?
Again, I'm going to suggest, K, that you take this before the Blessed Sacrament. God directly to Christ with this. Seems to me you're way over the line here. Please allow Christ's mercy into your heart. It's apparent to me that Gibson has!
Gene, here's what I think about Apology #2:
I think it's great. As a matter of fact, I think it's as good you guys thought the first one was. He sounds sincerely sorry for hurting people, and his intent to mend his ways is beautifully-phrased. I think his sorrow and desire to change is sincere. And it's very, very important that he admitted that these hurtful words came from a place inside him, unlike his first apology, in which he basically blamed the bottle.
His apology is great, and I pray for his recovery. If he cannot enter through the narrow door, then neither can I.
Whether he will be able to overcome his anti-Semitism is another matter, because he still hasn't fully admitted that he's an anti-Semite. Just as an alcoholic (which Gibson is) must stand up and say "my name is Mel, and I'm an alcoholic" if he wants to recover from his disease, Gibson must also have the courage to say "my name is Mel, and I'm an anti-Semite." He needs to own his sin and, contra Mark, he hasn't done that.
I emphasize that that admission need not be public, and isn't a required part of his apology. But if he expects to get better, he needs to recognize that anti-Semitism is indeed a part of him, the existance of which he must admit to himself before he can expect to be rid of it.
Having answered your question, I have a question for all of you who thought the first apology was perfect: do you think that this second apology is over-the-top?
I wonder why K the C wants to label Gibson as an anti-Semite so strongly.
Anybody know?
By the way, Gene, I profoundly apologize for not getting a response to your 12:32PM (EDT) post up before your next post at 12:40PM (EDT). You had every right to believe that eight minutes was more than enough time to put up a thoughtful reply.
I sincerely promise that the next time you make a demand of me, I will make all possible efforts to respond within eight minutes. You are truly a model of charity, patience, and virtue, and I aspire to your level of Christian charity.
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
Anonymous:
I wonder why K the C wants to label Gibson as an anti-Semite so strongly.
Because I know quite a bit about sin and addiction. Happily, by the grace of God I count neither alcoholism nor anti-Semitism among my many sins and addictions. But I have many others, and I know that to conquer sin and addiction, you must own them. Gibson has acted like a drunk who refuses to stand up and say "my name is Mel, and I'm an alcoholic."
Anonymous:
I wonder why K the C wants to label Gibson as an anti-Semite so strongly.
Because I know quite a bit about sin and addiction. Happily, by the grace of God I count neither alcoholism nor anti-Semitism among my many sins and addictions. But I have many others, and I know that to conquer sin and addiction, you must own them. Gibson has acted like a drunk who refuses to stand up and say "my name is Mel, and I'm an alcoholic."
>Sorry, but in no other religion could such an apology have been produced.
I reply: Well......I wouldn't say that. Grace is at the root of this apology. God can give Grace to non-Catholics. Pope Alexander VIII said so.
Anyway Cheers mate!
BTW in case there is any confusion in regards to my deep contempt for anti-Semitism which I have expressed here before without apology.
K of C is NOT WITH ME!
Thanks I feel better.
But, holy cow, what is he supposd to do if he really and truly doesn't have any anti-Semitic thoughts or feelings when he is sober and in control of his faculties? "I am an anit-Semite but only when I am drunk and not in complete control of my thoughts and words?" As Ben Stein pointed out in his essay on the American Spectator website, there is a good reason that people are not allowed to testify in court when they are drunk- their testimony is unreliable.
"If Foxman can't forgive that then the man has no soul."
I didn't know walking chatbots had souls... 
">Sorry, but in no other religion could such an apology have been produced.
I reply: Well......I wouldn't say that. Grace is at the root of this apology. God can give Grace to non-Catholics. Pope Alexander VIII said so."
Yeah, but only Catholics can fashion apologies in such a style. Style is a function of culture, not Grace.
"Gibson has acted like a drunk who refuses to stand up and say "my name is Mel, and I'm an alcoholic.""
Eh...I still think you haven't sufficiently proved he is an actual anti-Semitic, especially if all you have is a drunken brain dump. If he is an anti-Semite, let him say so stone cold sober, as a real anti-Semite would do.
"You had every right to believe that eight minutes was more than enough time to put up a thoughtful reply>"
Criminey, K. I was speaking about the post from Chris K re: Gibson's 2nd apology. You'd posted 3 responses after that within 40 minutes & did not once address it. It sure looked as if you were ignoring it. I thought I'd made that clear. Guess I hadn't. If that's the case,
I'm sincerely sorry if my posts came across that way to you. It was not my intention. I hope you will accept this apology at face value. But I most definitely see a pattern in you now.
I notice that you latched onto that one, small, petty thing in your double-posted response while neglecting to respond to the actual point I made. Ultimately, K, we either respond as Christ would have us respond (as St Paul said, we are to imitate him as he imitated Christ), with mercy, love & Christian charity . . . or, we revile, lambaste, & vilify.
I'll not make the mistake in the future of thinking I can make rational points with you.
That Anon above is me. Sorry. Haloscan kicked me out.
But I'll not take it personally.
"I wonder why K the C wants to label Gibson as an anti-Semite so strongly.
Anybody know?"
It seems to be an obsession of sorts, but that is between him and his Savior.
Gene, I accept your apology.
As far as my three-responses-in-forty-minutes are concerned... as you can tell I'm dealing with a lot of comments and questions from a lot of people. I'm doing my best to give them the responses they deserve, but being swamped is an occupational hazard of holding a minority opinion.
In prioritizing my statements, I have to put some before others. I prefer to answer questions as they are asked, rather than waiting a long time to answer them and having the response get lost in the shuffle. In fact, I had seen the second apology on the Drudge Report even before it was posted here, but didn't say anything about it as soon as I saw it because I had to think about how I felt about it. Also, I didn't want to cross-post it, because I knew someone was likely to put it up while I was doing.
You seem to think that I missed your point, or didn't respond to something you said. I apologize. It was not my intent. I'm doing my best here, and I'm swamped. If you care to restate your question, I'll put it on top of the pile.
As someone who suffers from Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (now mercifully regulated by SSRIs), I have some sense of how weird and tricky the mind can be. The obsessive thoughts that torment an OCD sufferer are largely "ego-dystonic"---that is, they bear no relation to what the person actually believes, feels, or is.
IMHO, only God knows which of our thoughts are ego-dystonic and which really reflect our inner self or whatever. The human mind is waaaay too complicated to be "read" easily by anyone else.
+J.M.J+
>>>Having answered your question, I have a question for all of you who thought the first apology was perfect: do you think that this second apology is over-the-top?
No, just an expansion of his original apology, with the added plea that the Jewish community help him. I'm glad he issued the second apology.
And I'm still scratching my head over Mr. Mershon's post. How do Mark's initial comments parallel those of Foxman? I don't see it at all.
In Jesu et Maria,
+J.M.J+
The Deadlinehollywooddaily.com article that Chris K linked to is no longer there, and unfortunately the Internet Archive apparently did not pick it up.
But here's another article from the TPOTC controversy two years ago, which perhaps takes on new significance in light of current events and the suggestion that Gibson may have been "suicidal" at the time of the DUI arrest:
Gibson: "Passion" Sprung from Suicide Thoughts
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/...15/
190022.shtml
Also note that, back then, Foxman was saying that he didn't believe that either Gibson or TPOTC were anti-Semitic. Guess he's changed his mind now.
In Jesu et Maria,
K the C said:
Wow, feel the hate!
No, not hate. Instructing the ignorant may be a spiritual work of mercy, but no one said it had to be pretty.
Whether he will be able to overcome his anti-Semitism is another matter, because he still hasn't fully admitted that he's an anti-Semite. Just as an alcoholic (which Gibson is) must stand up and say "my name is Mel, and I'm an alcoholic" if he wants to recover from his disease, Gibson must also have the courage to say "my name is Mel, and I'm an anti-Semite." He needs to own his sin and, contra Mark, he hasn't done that.
So, the source of your "knowledge" that Gibson is an anti-Semite is that he hasn't admitted it? I've never admitted to being a potted plant. Does that make me a potted plant?
What will it take for me to believe that Gibson is an anti-Semite? Well, more than a movie that some Jews, a small minority, didn't like -- i.e., those such as Abe Foxman who have a vested interest in raising money by making rash accusations of anti-Semitism -- and more than a drunken rant that Gibson repudiated and apologized for immediately upon sobering up.
And if you think that any bit of the Church's liturgy is anti-Semetic then, I'm sorry, but you do see an anti-Semite under every rock.
http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASUS..._12/
4862_12.htm
the adl has accepted Mel's apology.
Just heard: Abe Foxman has accepted Mel Gibson's apology and statement of remorse. So let's all just walk on.
Mark,
I generally agree with you on most things but you've jumped the gun here. To say that Mel Gibson is a racist is not the same as saying that human nature is that the Fall is identical with Human Nature.
To say Mel Gibson is a racist is simply saying that he picked up some bad opinions along the way or that he formed some bad habits. No need to bring nature/ grace into it or to paint some of Gibson's critics as Jansensists or whatnot.
There are some nice points in your essays but they are really just confusing the issue. Talk about nature/ grace if you like but it won't do much to clarify discussion of Gibson.
I'm sure that Mel Gibson has had anti-semitic thoughts. After all, one doesn't say something that one doesn't thing. However, I do not believe that necesarilly makes him an "anti-semite".
Imagine that there is a thief in your house. This is certainly a bad thing, from all perspectives. However, it is one thing if he is in your house looking for something to steal while you lie sleeping, and quite another if he is hiding in your house with your permission trying to avoid the police. Some thoughts enter our heads without our consent, and they may even be expressed in moments of inebriation, stress, or any kind of lowered inhibitions. This does not mean the person really believes the thought with his intellect, or even that the thought is always present. I myself have sometimes, out of stress and without any chemical inebriation, said things I don't believe in order to anger or upset someone. When I, as a child, yelled to my parents that I hated them, it didn't mean I harbored somewhere deep within myself real hatred, rather it was a thought that came to my mind occasionally, and due to uncontrolled anger it was expressed.
Furthermore, K the C, I don't believe that anyone slandered the pope. I can't remember who it was, but whoever said that we can't know what the pope would say if he were drunk, high, and angry I think was just pointing out that we never know what unfortunate subconscious thoughts lurk in people's minds. The pope may have whatever temptations he has, but it would seem unrealistic to say he never has any unpleasant thoughts.
Mel Gibson's apology makes it clear that he is looking for the source of the thoughts. He says he does not believe them, most likely because he truly doesn't. However, he realizes that they did come from somewhere and so he is searching for that to try to eradicate it. Remember, an anti-semite is a person who hates jews (which is how the word was formulated, regardless of the technical meaning of semite). A person who sometimes thinks unpleasant and wrong things about jews is not an anti-semite unless he engages those thoughts with his intellect and chooses to believe them.
K says: "Gibson has acted like a drunk who refuses to stand up and say "my name is Mel, and I'm an alcoholic."
Well, if he's gone into rehab, he'll have to.
Of course, the above statement shows that K knows almost nothing about recovery from alcoholism. There are scores of recovering alcoholics who continue to behave badly, mostly because of the emotional strain they're under as they come off of booze. In some ways, sin besets them even more. No excuses here, just a ststement of what often occurs.
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