"But I will not be surprised if another Diocletian arises in my lifetime."

Sorry to say, but I agree.
Dave G. | 03.29.07 - 5:41 pm | #

"I am confident in Christ Jesus that the Church will weather the storm as these two pathological civilizations destroy each other. But it will still be agonizing and it will still probably kill millions. Deliver us from evil, O Lord."

The Church Triumphant is unassailable. But what about the pilgrim Church on Earth?

THE SECRET

I saw the Church a cockleshell
The priesthood shrunk to half a dozen
The faithful in a catacomb
The civil cult a witches’ coven
The eucharist a hidden crumb
The cup of wine a thimble heaven
The word of God a secret code
The daily prayer in whispers hidden

But privately the Creed confessed
In blessing to a monstrous guest
And all the calmness of despair
Is cured by deep unfolded prayer
A living root, an ancient need
The parable a mustard seed

Lion Sun
April 17, 1994
Pavel Chichikov | Homepage | 03.29.07 - 6:14 pm | #

"But I will not be surprised if another Diocletian arises in my lifetime."

Maybe that is what the Church needs. We have grown very complacent without an obvious implacable foe.
JonathanR. | 03.29.07 - 7:02 pm | #

"... the cultural left is held "responsible" for 9/11 and American conservatives are depicted as having more in common with a Grand Mufti than with Michael Moore."

Does that mean that political conservatives are morally impeccable?

As a Russian acquaintance of mine used to say (God bless his soul) in other contexts, in his inimittable accent: boooolsheeeet.
Pavel Chichikov | Homepage | 03.29.07 - 7:39 pm | #

Savage persecution doesn't inevitably lead to a resurgence of faith--consider Japan under the Shogunate. A country that had previously shown considerable interest in Christianity re-emerged in the 19th C with that interest crushed and it has yet to return.

Arguments that the Muslims would stop hating us if only we were all good and pure ignore Islamic hostility to all manner of innocent activities: unveiled women, beardless men, music, theater, art, keeping dogs, playing with dolls or teddies. It was the shock of "wicked" America in the late '40s that radicalized one of the prime jihadi theorists. Islam wants the entire world submissive to Allah and the jihadis want it now.
Sandra Miesel | 03.29.07 - 7:58 pm | #

Pavel,

Is your premise that a Grand Mufti is necessarily morally impeccable? Or is your premise that Michael Moore is morally impeccable?

Peace,
Bob LeBlanc | Homepage | 03.29.07 - 8:00 pm | #

Pavel,
Thanks for the great poem.
Michael Drollman | 03.29.07 - 8:10 pm | #

>>"As a Russian acquaintance of mine used to say (God bless his soul) in other contexts, in his inimittable accent: boooolsheeeet."

http://youtube.com/watch?v=F4wh_mc8hRE
pace | 03.29.07 - 8:20 pm | #

"...as these two pathological civilizations destroy each other..."

Mark,

I don't get you some times. I really, really don't. According to you, Western Civilization is controlled by Manufacturers of Culture, but is only "mostly" depraved. Yet, it's bad enough that it only has a "use" for Christianity. It is also held back from depravity only by remnants of "real believers" who cannot be crushed, yet. But then you abandon all ambiguous terminology and call it Pathological, presumably, equally to that of the Islamists who regularly engage in suicide bombings.

If you're going to attack Western Civilization, will you at least not do it in a way such that a person reading your post who's not Christian would come back thinking that he is part of the problem? Have you even considered how your post would read to a Jewish person?

What do you think Western Civilization IS? All I get from you is that you think pop culture, Britney Spears, homosexual activists, and abortion DEFINE Western Civilization. Do you have ANY idea of the value of your cultural heritage at ALL? Not if you think it's "pathological," I suppose. It's like you have no sense of history, and of the things that make the West great. And that's really, really disturbing.

The only beef you have with D'Souza is that he should've blamed not only the liberals, but every single American on the planet.
Sydney Carton | 03.29.07 - 8:34 pm | #

You're right, Sydney. You don't get me.
Mark P. Shea | Homepage | 03.29.07 - 9:01 pm | #

Mark,

What do you expect? Your post reeks of cynicism. I thought I was cynical, but sometimes you take the cake. Look, I'm all for doom and gloom as the next person. I haven't liked the way American culture was moving since I was old enough to perceive it. Etc, etc.

But I haven't lost my sense of perspective or of history. You seem to ignore everything good about Western Civilization whenever you talk about it. The sense I get from you is that it's a thing that should be killed, murdered, thrown away, instead of fixed, repaired, healed.

This is not the first time that your tone has indicated your serious antipathy towards the West:

http://markshea.blogspot.com/ 200...618259151640907

If you're going to imply that my fellow American neighbors will rise up against Catholics if a nuclear 9/11 occurs, then I'm going to need a little more convincing. And I'm not sure that Americans, even elites, are so ready to slaughter Catholics in the streets like they did in the days of the Roman Empire. I mean, do you HONESTLY believe that about your American neighbors? And apart from your neighbors, do you HONESTLY believe that about even the most vicious, anti-Catholic secularist pop culture elites? Is Bill Maher REALLY going to crush us in 10 years?
Sydney Carton | 03.29.07 - 9:51 pm | #

Screwed up the link in that prior post. Here's the correct link:

http://markshea.blogspot.com/ 200...618259151640907
Sydney Carton | 03.29.07 - 10:16 pm | #

Actually, I love Western civilization. My point is that our Manufacturers of Culture think it is a thing that should be killed, murdered, thrown away, instead of fixed, repaired, healed. They are laboring to do it as we speak. They hate it more than Muslims do.

I hope in the Holy Spirit that they will continue to fail and be thwarted for a very long time. But I am also aware of what prophecy says about the earthly fortunes of the Church.
Mark P. Shea | Homepage | 03.29.07 - 10:22 pm | #

“I'm not sure that Americans, even elites, are so ready to slaughter Catholics in the streets”
"Is Bill Maher REALLY going to crush us in 10 years?"

Who’s to say? You could probably go back to any point in history before some cataclysmic event and hear similar statements. Many an architect of yesterday’s evils went home to work on the house, enjoy a good book, or play with his kids. “It wouldn’t happen to us, we would never do such things” should be etched on the communal gravestone of humanity. The things that happen in history happen because the factors are in place to allow them. There are many factors in play today, and few of them seem promising. I have told my children that it would benefit them to learn Chinese or Arabic. I fear that if trends continue in our culture, religious liberty, if not all liberty, will be a forgotten concept by the time my children’s children are grown.

And yes, I more than believe it about the “most vicious, anti-Catholic secularist pop culture elites.” Check out Mark’s earlier reference to an atheist professor calling for religious folks to be banned from the political arena. I chimed in and said I thought such ninnies were the exception. Someone named Denny and Mark disagreed. I spent the next few days searching around various writings by secularists. I stand corrected. I was wrong. There is definitely a movement afoot in the shadows of our culture to relegate people of faith, primarily Christians, to the status of being without stars on their bellies. And I doubt it will stop there. In history, people seldom stop. They usually have to be stopped (or better, converted).
Dave G. | 03.29.07 - 10:50 pm | #

Pavel,

Is your premise that a Grand Mufti is necessarily morally impeccable? Or is your premise that Michael Moore is morally impeccable?

Peace,
Bob LeBlanc | Homepag

No.

No.

My premise is that if only I'm successful in finding the square root of rhubarb will I succeed in earning a doctorate in billiards.

Peace,

Pavel
Pavel Chichikov | Homepage | 03.29.07 - 11:08 pm | #

God bless you, Michael. And you too, Bob.

Pavel
Pavel Chichikov | Homepage | 03.29.07 - 11:09 pm | #

>>"As a Russian acquaintance of mine used to say (God bless his soul) in other contexts, in his inimittable accent: boooolsheeeet."

http://youtube.com/watch?v=F4wh_mc8hRE\"

Unfortunately, every time I try to get a youtube video I'm told I need some flash something or other. I won't, therefore I won't watch this one.
Pavel Chichikov | Homepage | 03.29.07 - 11:16 pm | #

Pavel,

Another wonderful poem.

Thank you.
Brian | 03.30.07 - 12:54 am | #

"But I will not be surprised if another Diocletian arises in my lifetime." I think we are in an Orwellian 1984, we haven't seen anything yet.
Nick | 03.30.07 - 9:42 am | #

Mark:

At some point, if you haven't already, could you please post a more lengthy post concerning your thoughts on Western Civilization and what is happening to it now. If you have already written on this, could you link to it. Thanks.
Bob | 03.30.07 - 9:57 am | #

" Pavel,

Another wonderful poem.

Thank you."

God bless you, Brian. As with other poems, if you liike it pass it on. Thanks to the Net, much Catholic literature will circulate this way.

You can find Lion Sun, where the poem appears, on Amazon.
Pavel Chichikov | Homepage | 03.30.07 - 9:58 am | #

"But I will not be surprised if another Diocletian arises in my lifetime."

'I think we are in an Orwellian 1984, we haven't seen anything yet.'

Yep.
Pavel Chichikov | Homepage | 03.30.07 - 10:00 am | #

Pavel,

I wish you the best of luck in your search for the square root of rhubarb and in your obtaining a doctorate in billiards.

God bless,
Bob LeBlanc | Homepage | 03.30.07 - 10:02 am | #

I find it strangely ironic, this thesis of D'Souza's. He echoes the Left’s own solipsism, only instead of blaming Islam’s enmity on the West’s imperialism, sexism, fill-in-the-blank-ism –things that the Left regards as quintessentially Western vices-- he blames it on those things conservatives find fault with in Western society, e.g. the Left itself.

But whatever the many shortcomings of Western culture, no basically narcissistic analysis will ever do to explain someone else’s behavior. Good luck on finding someone in Islam that you can actually dialog with. But there will be no dialog at all without a partner, someone willing to take the blame –or the credit—for his own actions. Some say that the difficulty in finding Muslims willing and able to dialog owes to the fact that they are intimidated by their militant confreres. But I suspect that in many cases it is simply that Islam –or at least the Koran—won’t stand up to serious scrutiny, while in the West we have engaged in self-criticism –however imperfectly-- for hundreds, or even thousands, of years
Mike Walsh, MM | 03.30.07 - 10:12 am | #

"in the West we have engaged in self-criticism –however imperfectly-- for hundreds, or even thousands, of years"

Great point. I don't know if self-criticism is a Western distinctive, but I doubt any other culture has ever been better at it than us.
Dave G. | 03.30.07 - 10:53 am | #

" Pavel,

I wish you the best of luck in your search for the square root of rhubarb and in your obtaining a doctorate in billiards."

I'll need it. It's a lifetime quest.

God bless,

Pavel
Pavel Chichikov | Homepage | 03.30.07 - 11:51 am | #

I admire Pavel's quest for a doctorate in billiards, which, of course, is dependent upon logic, skill, perception, flexibility and of course, the sine qua non, . . . intestinal fortitude.

That said, it seems that those qualities are lacking in Mark's initial posting on this thread. His comments conjure up for me Mark and those of similar mind, sitting at the top of cultural dunghills of their own imagination, resplendent in white robes, of their own creation, that hide their own sores, also of their own creation.

I doubt that Mark and his friends have any more or less moral goodness than most people. That is not so much a knock at Mark as it is a recognition of the powerful insight of Anne Frank, when she said,

"It's difficult in times like these: ideals, dreams and cherished hopes rise within us, only to be crushed by grim reality. It's a wonder I haven't abandoned all my ideals, they seem so absurd and impractical. Yet I cling to them because I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart. I simply can't build my hopes on a foundation of confusion, misery, and death...and yet...I think...this cruelty will end, and that peace and tranquility will return again."

So, let's look for the good, even when it is different from us, and encourage it, rather than look for the corrupt, and take self-serving satisfaction from it.
HJBoitel | 03.30.07 - 12:00 pm | #

A new Diocletian?! Who is it? Hilary? Barack? Rudy? Do tell ...

Are churches being shut in Montana? Priests shot in Sweden? Bishops defenestrated in Holland? Puh-leese.

We live in a society (especially in the United States) that provides a greater freedom of action for the Church and its members than any I can name. No, our society is far from perfect--it never was and never will be. We must live in it and work to make it better, not wipe our hands of it and damn it to hell. Perhaps you're just upset that, in a free society, so many people disagree with you, and are free to live in disagreement.

There seems to be more than a taste of a martyr complex in your posts and in the responses here. We must not reject martyrdom, but we are not to seek it. Christianity is not a religion of suicides ... or suicide bombers.
brian | 03.30.07 - 2:17 pm | #

Thanks for the straw man rebuttal.
Mark P. Shea | Homepage | 03.30.07 - 2:53 pm | #