One!
When did the the Pope transfer Archbishop Marini to the Bishopric of Hiroshima?
498 to go
497 comments to go, 497 comments to go...
Take one down, pass it around -
496 comments to go!
I'm not really interested in what a bunch of neo-Cath, recent converts from Evangelical Protestantism have to say on this. You people should shut your mouths and let us cradle Catholics run the show.
Plus, half your commentators seem to be women. They shouldn't talk on blogs, let alone in Church. I hope your heads are veiled.
Besides, how can we discuss this until we have a working definition of what "torture" is?
(Hope this helps your totals.)
It is all clear to me now. If it hadn't been for the evil influence of Harry Potter: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Hagen, Haas, and Liturgical Dancing would never have happened. Don't believe me? I offer you unrefutable evidence of the evil plot.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tx1XIm6q4r4
No Red Dwarf!!!!!????!!!!
I'm otta here.................
we had to drop the bomb ... how many innocent wizards would have died if we hadn't?
But the only place the bomb should ever be dropped is on the Haugen school of liturgical dance. It is clearly permitted by just war theory and proportional to the crime.
Plus, half your commentators seem to be women. They shouldn't talk on blogs, let alone in Church. I hope your heads are veiled.
There are women here? What are they wearing?
Liturgical dancing does not discriminate between innocents and those deserving of punishment. It is only permissible in self-defense against military combatants, or for the preservation of one's virginity.
I think Kevin is on to something here. If we were to force all teens to watch lesbian ex-nuns over the age of 50 perform liturgical dance in tutus to songs from "Glory and Praise" just think of the number that would be inspired to remain chaste. We may even be responsible for a strong resurgance in vocations to the priesthood. It is worth considering.
Only 490 more to go....490 comments to go 490 comments, take one down, pass it around 490 comments to go.
if Voldemort hadn't attacked Godric's Hollow, then we never would have had to drop the atomic expeliarmus charm on the liturgical dance.
Anon,
That should do it. 
Well said, Sean. Certainly Catholic doctrine agrees with that.
And by the way, we are at war, dang it!
There are women here? What are they wearing?
Very modest apparel. And mantillas. Now get your mind out of the gutter.
+J.M.J+
And now for something completely different....
In Jesu et Maria,
What's wrong with Liturgical Dancers? I mean as long as they're scantily clad and aren't wearing those mantilla thingys, we're all good, right?
Oh, and Cardinal Mahoney is the Best. Cardinal. EVER.
(and the LA Cathedral is the Best. Cathedral. EVER.)
Harry Potter? Liturgical dancing? Bombing of Hiroshima?
ALL EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEVIL!
EEVIL!
EEVIL!
EEVIL!
EEVIL!
There's my rational contribution to the comment total.
Histor
I have been spared the horrors of liturgical dance. My tells me that the one occassion of it that she witnessed was insipid, even absurd, but not the thing that chases the faithful from the church.
I am not sure that it makes a good villainy for Harry Potter to combat. It certainly does not qualify as something for him to defend.
Hey, we once had Matachines dancers at our church - apparently liturgical dances from the Aztec era survived to become Christian and got called Matachines (which, unaccountably, means "Chinese-killers").
Of course, that's a transfer of devil-worshipping symbols to the Church, as well as one bizarre name. So much to object to there.
Histor
If we're going for 500 comments, we need an OT flame war. To that end:
BenYachov,
Red Dwarf is not real sci-fi, Farscape was lame, and Andromeda would've still been flotsam even if Kevin Sorbo hadn't driven out the head writer for writing plots too complex for his miniscule mind to grasp. (And for the Coup de Grace) Star Trek Voyager is the ideal every SciFi series should pursue.
As for Hiroshima - bombs weren't necessary, therefore weren't moral.
+J.M.J+
>>>Red Dwarf is not real sci-fi
Perhaps, but it's good for a laugh and has some great blokish cameraderie (until the seventh season, that is, but I digress)
>>>Star Trek Voyager is the ideal every SciFi series should pursue.
Ah yes, Gilligan's Island in Space.
In Jesu et Maria,
"Gilligan's Island in space", huh, Rosemarie?
HOW DARE YOU DISTRACT US FROM HARRYPOTTERLITURGICALDANCINGNUKINGHIROSHIMA???????
????
BEG YOUR EVER-LOVIN' PARDON?
I say we nuke Harry Potter while liturgically dancing in Hiroshima.
(oh, and B5 was the Best. Sci-Fi Series. Ever.)
PPS, Dr. Who is lame. Always has been. Always will be.
Flame on.
emacs rules. vi is for idiots.
(Just thought I would introduce yet another bit of flame-war kindling.)
I'm still laughing at Kevin Jones's 2:37 above.
+J.M.J+
Yeah, that's what I used to call ST:V when it first started out, since all the episodes had a "Gilligan's Island"-style plot:
We're stuck out here with no way to get home.... Oh, wait, here's something/someone that might be able to get us home! Uh oh, it fell through. :-( Guess we're still stuck here with no way to get home....
Granted, the plots did get better later on. Well, sometimes.
(Just killin' combox space aimin' for that golden five hundred...)
In Jesu et Maria,
emacs rules. vi is for idiots.
Keep on believing that—if you want to get carpel tunnel. And if you want to emulate that hippy freak Stallman.
Well,
Hiro - Japanese version of Harry;
Shi-ma - Japanese word meaning "Potter, pot-maker"
Ta-da!
Histor
Yeah, that's what I used to call ST:V when it first started out, since all the episodes had a "Gilligan's Island"-style plot:
We're stuck out here with no way to get home.... Oh, wait, here's something/someone that might be able to get us home! Uh oh, it fell through. :-( Guess we're still stuck here with no way to get home....
Granted, the plots did get better later on. Well, sometimes.
Well, at least it never had any urinating muppets. And crewmembers didn't projectile vomit every three episodes.
Forgive me if I do one more...
Litur - Chinese for evil
Jicaldanzhing - Chinese for post-menopausal lady.
All TV is evil, you guys. So is Harry Potter - it's related to "Hiroshima" as I proved.
Incidentially, could we, for once, have liturgical swing dancing?
Histor
Don't care about emacs or its or whatever they are again. (Too lazy to scroll up, I fear...)
Maybe I've posted enough comments already?
Nah.
Six in a row!
+J.M.J+
>>>Well, at least it never had any urinating muppets. And crewmembers didn't projectile vomit every three episodes.
No, but it had a needlessly busty ex-Borg chick for a while there. Sure, the guys may have enjoyed the eye candy, but what about us hetero females who were subjected to that program? Huh? HUH? Does anyone care about US?
In Jesu et Maria,
Science fiction fans are so weird.
Dune rules!
Histor
BTW, I'm not taking this conversation too seriously. Just so you all know.
In Jesu et Maria,
Nor am I, ma'am.
No, but it had a needlessly busty ex-Borg chick for a while there.
I don't know about needlessly.
Anyway. Urinating muppets? That sounds like a show I'd like to watch.
Sure, the guys may have enjoyed the eye candy, but what about us hetero females who were subjected to that program? Huh? HUH? Does anyone care about US?
I don't buy it. Unlike hetero males, all of whom doubt their own masculinity and heterosexuality to one degree or another (admitting it is a different story), hetero women are more mature and confident in their femininity. Busty women affect them not at all either one way or the other.
Hey y'all, wake up.
Firefly was the best science fiction series.
Cowboys and spaceships -- what could be cooler? (smirk)
GKC,
Google Farscape.
+J.M.J+
>>>hetero women are more mature and confident in their femininity. Busty women affect them not at all either one way or the other.
Well, it's like the typical complaint against Barbie dolls: it sets up an unattainable ideal that gives girls/women a negative body image. That kind of thing.
In Jesu et Maria,
Y'know, the whole making-the-role-of-the-eye-greater-and-its-
demands-more-impossible-to-fulfill thing. Like what Screwtape talked about.
Histor
Hey y'all, wake up.
Firefly was the best science fiction series.
Cowboys and spaceships -- what could be cooler? (smirk)
"Time for some thrilling heroics!"
>>>I don't know about needlessly.
Kinda figured someone would say that eventually....
In Jesu et Maria,
As a NeoCath, I'm confused.
On the one hand, HP is uplifting, liturgical dancing could be the feature of a popular first person shooter style video game, and dropping atomic weapons is our God given right as Americans to be serious posterior-kickers in any and all global conflicts (we'll just nuke 'em all and let God sort 'em out).
On the other hand, HP is just like that Rainbow Labyrinth Enneagram conference that was so groovy, liturgical dance is about welcoming the Spirit of Vatican II through the use of inclusive leotards and organic-cotton, environmentally friendly tights, and nuclear arms are a scourge upon Mother Earth and should be opposed whether or not we ever use them, preferably by finding a friendly archbishop or two to lay down on railroad tracks in protest.
Sigh. A NeoCath's lot is not a happy one.
No bustiness would have led to no interest, see?
Nukes. Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em. Can't use 'em, can't not have 'em ready to use.
I'm confused. I need a drink.
+J.M.J+
>>> No bustiness would have led to no interest, see?
Indeed. Were it not for the introduction of Seven of Nine, I'm sure ST:V would have been cancelled early, like its unfortunate successor. Nonetheless, such characters are not very psychologically helpful for those of us who don't exactly have the physique of a goddess - apart from maybe the Venus of Willendorf (which might not even have been a goddess sho I'm not sure whether it counts). Hence my annoyance with the eye candy.
In Jesu et Maria,
Firefly: best scifi ever, beyond a doubt. Limited liturgical dance by the Reivers was superb.
Reivers?
Oh, and liturgical dance makes a brief appearance in the cult film ""Manos:" The Hands of Fate."
I don't think we can support Firefly as Catholics since it advocates torture in the first episode("Captain told me to find out what you know...he wasn't specific as to how. ...aw, you don't know nothin'. And I thought I was gonna get an ear out of the deal"). I think one could argue that Catholics can't support liturgical dancing for similar reasons.
+J.M.J+
Oh gosh, yeah. The "liturgical dance" in Manos - almost as bad as the real thing.
MST3K rules!
In Jesu et Maria,
Following the memorial, I understand the liturgical dancers hopped into their Prius' to attend a vegan feast in celebration of Mother Gaia.
If MST3K is okay despite its torture, Firefly is also okay. Isn't being forced to watch bad movies torture?
And then the dancers denounced Harry Potter because the glossy dust covers harm the environment if they're tossed out on the road and eaten by deer.
Well, we're at 59. Not bad. Not bad at all.
62nd!
+J.M.J+
Will you still feed me, will you still need me, when I'm 64?
In Jesu et Maria,
...or was it the other way around?
No matter - 65 and counting!
>>> If MST3K is okay despite its torture, Firefly is also okay. Isn't being forced to watch bad movies torture?
Torture for them, fun for us. (Though they didn't really appear to suffer too often, come to think about it. Remember the end of the MST3K movie?)
In Jesu et Maria.
BTW, if Red Dwarf is not real sci-fi, what about ALF?
In Jesu et Maria,
"Isn't being forced to watch bad movies torture?"
Histor, you KNOW you shouldn't be asking this question. The proper question is, "how do we treat moviegoers humanely?"
Otherwise, you're in danger of wanting to tiptoe *right up* to the line of forcing people to watch Tom Cruise movies--and once you cross *that* line, "Ishtar" can't be far behind.
BTW, if Red Dwarf is not real sci-fi, what about ALF?
While ALF was a muppet, he never displayed any bodily functions (beyond eating, of course), and thus it can't be regarded as serious scifi.
Best. Thread. Ever.
So Farscape was at least serious Sci-Fi because it had a urinating muppet, right?
(Should I suspend the signoff for such short, frequent posts?)
Ah, but Red, didn't you know?
HP contains secret information that proves that Mary Magdalene was the first liturgical dancer, not King David as was previously claimed. Evil albino liturgists were behind the bombing of Hiroshima in order to prevent the information from getting out, but a cryptic inscription in the basement of a bakery in Nagasaki led Rowling to the truth.
So, if you sip herbal tea while reading your special 100% recycled paper version of HP, you'll probably be o.k.
freddy: Suddenly it all makes sense.
Freddy, !
What do I do if I suspect that members of the evil albino liturgists' association have taken over my parish??
Seems abundantly clear to me that Lord Voldemort is the Lord of the Dance (dance, dance wherever you may be... arrgh....sorry about that)
My mind isn't able to connect this to Hiroshima quite yet, so pass around whatever it is you folks have been drinking!
But you're all missing the crucial question:
What song were the dancers dancing to?
Anthem, of course.
Dale, NOOOOOOOOOO!
If a secret group of evil albino liturgists was performing liturgical dance to the tune of "Anthem" in Hiroshima, then our use of the bomb was clearly self-defense.
Unfortunately, it failed. Somehow a copy of that song jumped through an inadvertent leak in the space-time continuum caused by the carelessness of the crew during the events which took place in the movie "Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home," and it ended up in the possession of Tom Conry, propelling him to fame and fortune.
>>> Best. Thread. Ever.
Well, I still think the best thread ever was Another satisfied Catholic! (which was also very tongue-in-cheek).
Though this one has been fun so far.
emacs rules. vi is for idiots.
I guess that's true for geeky types. WordPerfect 5.2 for DOS rules for the business world.
WordPerfect still rules today. Reveal Codes is worth the price of admission. Word is for losers.
My contribution to the great emacs vs vi debate: http://blog.lathi.net/files/curves.jpg
Cuz emacs was definitely designed by someone who was hittin the shrooms.
No shrooms here, but I just ate a bunch of pecans...
If albino liturgists in Hiroshima propagated "Gather Us In," then I would have approved of blowing every last Japanese island off the map.
(Of course, it would still be wrong. And I don't approve of the bombings.)
MS Word is for people who don't like creativity in communication.
Histor
Always happy to do my part for a worthy cause (i.e., hitting 100 comments)!
Okay, since the stated goal actually was 500, I guess that this emended version of my previous remark can be counted, as well:
"Always happy to do my part for a worthy cause (i.e., hitting 500 comments)!"
Keep it up, wot wot? Go A. and B. the C. of D.!
Histor
Firefly.
Microbrew.
Perfect evening with my honey.
No liturgical dance in sight (well, there was, but now there's just a mushroom cloud).
Can you liturgically dance to the Jayne song?
All for 500!
If you reeeeeeeeeeeeealy wanted to, you could liturgical dance to it, but the conditions you describe are not liturgical.
Oh, sorry. I didn't realize there were actual rules about when you could do liturgical dance. I thought you could do it wherever and whenever you want, whether it makes sense or not.
One does not liturgical dance at a social event, since liturgical dance is:
The unnecessary, inappropriate, and tasteless insertion of artistic body motions into a social, religious, political, or otherwise public ritual.
For instance, the "Chicken Dance" at a Presidential inauguration would be liturgical dance.
Savvy?
Histor
So, Doctor Who is lame, eh? Be warned: the Daleks know where you live (heh)! All together now: "EX-TER-MIN-ATE, EX-TER-MIN-ATE!"
I am in a haiku mood:
Liturgical dance
Is Voldemort incarnate:
Much worse than torture.
"All for 500!"
500 FTW!
(Just doing my part!)
That's hilarious, Aaron.
By the way, I really don't have strong views on text editors--my motto is "whatever works," which usually comes down to "whatever you're used to." But it's funny to see how that 20-plus-year-old controversy still has its partisans. (For the record, I do use emacs--never got comfortable with the mode switching in vi, and I have emacs programmed eight ways from Sunday.)
I really feel obligated to add to the comment count. Called by the Spirit, even? Far be it from me to make such a claim on a whim. Excuse me, I'm off to discern about my role in comboxes, as well as the merits of Firefly in comparison to those of Farscape.
With regard to the original issue, I can easily see liturgical dancers being death eaters in disguise. They have the same surface-sweetness but inner-putrescence of Dolores Umbridge.
Like Rosemary, I have very fond memories of the "Another Satisfied Catholic" thread.
Although I've read science fiction voraciously for years, I've never gotten into most of the movie/TV variety. So I can't contribute much right now except another post to bump the total along.
P.S. I'm just now reading Harry Potter for the first time. Almost finished Book 5. Starting to worry where I can beg a copy of Book 7, as I don't want to buy it until it's out in paperback and the library waiting list is miles long.
To my certain knowledge Briscoe County Junior never fell victim to liturgical dance. Briscoe was the first really good show to combine cowboys and scifi.
Isn't Lord Voldemort a Parish Life Director in the HP series? I know for a fact Bellatrix was a female priest... it all comes together in book 7, where Harry becomes an altarboy and battles the dancing Death Eaters out of Westminster Cathedral. Best. Book. Ever.
Oh, by the way, if you haven't read the last HP book yet... well, too late, I've spoiled the ending. You should have read it before, so it's your fault!
Hey, am I #100?
But you're all missing the crucial question:
What song were the dancers dancing to?
But of course, they were dancing to Marty Haugen's
"Gather a Sin."
At least that's what the words always sounded like to me.
Or perhaps they were dancing to:
"Infinity bottles of beer on the wall!
Infinity bottles of beer,
If one of those bottles should happen to fall,
Infinity bottles of beer on the wall!"
Speaking of the bizarre, does anyone else remember Br. Adso's dream from the latter half of "The Name of the Rose"? (cut from the movie of course). It featured murdered monks, the Last Supper (with Christ distributing pages of Aristotle's lost book of Poetics as the Eucharist), fetching country maids who steal beef offals to feed their families, and of course, Br. Salvatore in the end, exclaiming, "Master, I have the cheese in batter!"
I guess you had to be there.
It's been a while since I read the book but I still have my paperback copy--no way I'm parting with it!
Ah, yes, Gather a Sin, Lord, and let us Sing a New Church, where we are The Body of Christ. Let the New Church rise from the Ashes, not to preach our Creed or Customs, but to soar on Eagle's Wings as the Lord of the Dance! Here we are Lord...ummmm Lord, really, here we Are!!
Why aren't you listening?????
Snape was a good guy, so there! Let's dance.
Liturgical dance is modeled in the animal world, so why all the concern over something natural?
(Caution: The website is hosted by albinos, and the page in question makes insidious reference to Slytherin House.)
I don't think the postmenopausal lesbian radical feminist nuns have any cause to worry about their virginity, so who are their attackers?
The opposite of a gathering song is a scattering song. "Scatter Us Out" begs to be written.
I've lessened my resistance to On Beagle's Wings due to a sheer act of will.
So I’ve lived my entire life in a pretty conservative diocese, and I actually had to Google “liturgical dance.” Are you saying people do this during mass?!? Maybe I need to get out more.
We want ou-out,
We want to leave,
We just want to go back to our homes,
Let us ou-out
Of this worship-space
Mass is over, please let us go out!
(sung to Here I Am, Lord.)
BTW, am I the only one amused by how Mass ends?
Priest: The Mass is ended; go in peace.
Us: Thanks be to God!
Check out this cool video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU .
Histor, I have always been amused by that.
liturgical dancing could be the feature of a popular first person shooter style video game
I know this is going back a ways, but at last count it was only at 110, so...
Red, are you referring to those Java-based games that were popular in the late 90s that had themes like "slingshot kittens through windows, but if they splatter against the wall, you still get full points?" because I might find launching liturgical dancers into the air just as good a way to let off some steam.
__
I was subjected to liturgical dance for the first time at Christmas, staying with my sister out of town. For a minute I was wondering why some barefoot 12 year old girl would be carrying a baby doll into the "gathering space" after communion, but then I saw her set it in a manger and start prancing around. The dancing wasn't bad by itself, and when she picked up the doll to wave it at us demonstratively I wasn't what I'd call confused, but for the life of me I couldn't think of what I would change that would make the routine seem appropriate, fitting to the Mass.
__
I don't know about needlessly.
Yeah, Someone thought she should look like that, right?
Okay, I'm not seriously defending the promotion of unrealistic...expectations, but if they'd replaced Kes with a guy looking more like King Leonidas, it wouldn't have made me lose any sleep over it. Am I just secure and confident in my own manhood and pudginess? I'm not so sure. Am I just apathetic instead? Well, maybe that's it.
__
Should I be making multiple posts to help raise the count?
The opposite of a gathering song is a scattering song. "Scatter Us Out" begs to be written.
I've lessened my resistance to On Beagle's Wings due to a sheer act of will.
I came to hate that song because when I was younger no one bothered to pick a different entrance song at my church for a solid ten months. I liked it the first three weeks--hey, I was young--but now I wonder, in light of this criticism, who thought it was that good.
They were stoned, perhaps.
On Bugle's - Beagle's - Beatles' - I mean, Eagle's Wings is a rather sappy song. Not very masculine, or even feminine for that matter.
What the heck is a Rick Roll, anyway?
Histor
I think there ought to be a Liturgical Reel. It would give me an excuse for playing really loud Irish music in church, an idea which always has appealed to my baser side. It's also better exercise than kneeling.
Just sayin'.
And - where is Jeff Miller? We need him here.
Histor
+J.M.J+
>>>Okay, I'm not seriously defending the promotion of unrealistic...expectations, but if they'd replaced Kes with a guy looking more like King Leonidas, it wouldn't have made me lose any sleep over it. Am I just secure and confident in my own manhood and pudginess? I'm not so sure. Am I just apathetic instead? Well, maybe that's it.
Perhaps men are not as concerned as women are with that kind of thing - generally speaking, of course.
In Jesu et Maria,
What, I missed the flamewar? Oh bogus.
Red Dwarf is not real scifi? HERESY! It was certainly more hard scifi than ST:TNG & Battlestar Galactica put together.
Red Dwarf is the only true scifi British comedy. This is all part of the plot by the liberal media to make sure that a Red Dwarf movie is never made, or that if it is made to have Hugh Grant star as Lister. Oh the Satanic Lies!
As a priest of the divine Cloister the Stupid, father of the Cat People, I hereby excommunicate you from all British scifi & cast you out.
I mean what are you, a fan of SG1?
And as for Farscape, Farscape rules!
BOYZ FROM THE DWARF!!!!!
Remember, in Space no one can hear you Smeg!
In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only Smeg.
I didn't have any particular type of game in mind, Ed. What you describe would work fine!
And Rosemarie, I hate to say this, but there are actual live women who are genetically naturally needlessly busty. Some of them are even Catholic women. It's not like they *asked* to be busty, believe me.
"On Eagle's Wings" (or the YooHoo song) is badly written, nearly unsingable, trite, contrived, annoying, and heard far too often. Except for the "unsingable" part it's just like most homilies heard in America.
BTW, I'm not really overly bothered by the Seven of Nine character in ST:V. I do think that characters like that could lead to issues with body image for some girls, but I was mostly feigning outrage above as part of the faux "flame war" Anonymous started.
I don't usually act "over the top" like that on forums, but like I said I'm not taking this thread too seriously. It's just a fun diversion, and God knows I need a diversion right now!
In Jesu et Maria,
There already is a liturgical reel! If you play Lord of the Dance really fast, without words, like he-who-is-now-Lard-of-the-Pants did for his show, you can do the universal treble reel step to it:
SLAM, down-batter & down-batter & down-batter and back
SLAM
down-batter & down-batter & down-batter and back
SLAM
down-batter & back
SLAM
down-batter & back
SLAM
down-batter & down-batter & down-batter and SLAM!
Rosemarie, who's serious?
The problem with the character is more the clothes than the woman, anyway.
Diversions are important this time of year, aren't they?
the problem with Liturgical Dancers is that there just aren't enough real men doing it as King David did:
"And David danced before the Lord with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod." 2 Samuel 16:14
Thanks, KH!
Personally, I know a song called "Apple Picker's Reel" that shares the "Lord of the Dance" tune...surely it is no coincidence!
I would happily do liturgical dance in a linen ephod...but not at a Catholic parish. Cavorting in underwear before the Incarnate God is a little too much for a prude like me.
Histor
Aaaron.
those 'emacs' look like a maori Koru.
Not that I'm claiming them
How about Liturgical Line Dance.
I can see the entire US mid west putting up their own Billy Ray Cyrus lookalikes each Sunday - parish competing with parish to produce the best. The whole congregation following in at the entrance, Yo-ho-ing and line dancing like at a Holy Ho-down
The craze would rapidly spread to Australia - within days - but more to the tune of "Tie Me Kangaroo Down, Sport"
The British, after some toffe-nosed delibertaion in smoke filled and cocaine saturated boardrooms, would bring out their own versin - Liturgical Line-Morris Dancing - lead by a 21st century version of Lonny Donnegan
They would wait a respectful length of time, so that it wasn't seen that they were following the lead of the Americans.
The Russians would within weeks produce their own version - including large onion hats and Vodka fumes - balalaikas flourishing and Georgian Dancers doing those impossible stunts.
And then they would claim that they were in fact the first to do Liturgical Line Dance - the USA copied them. Well that's what Poo Tin would say
And then, after 5 years, the craze would catch on in New Zealand, with the obligatory Liturgical Maori Haka thrown in. 
What's happened to the comment counter? My liitle brst didn't budge it at all.
Maybe Kiwi comments don't count - well not till next month 
Ah. Yes, its working.
This is #128
I would happily do liturgical dance in a linen ephod...but not at a Catholic parish. Cavorting in underwear before the Incarnate God is a little too much for a prude like me.
David did it before the Ark of the Covenant, and that was something you got zapped if you disrespected. Clearly, cavorting in your underwear is not accounted disrespectful to sacred things (within limits - one suspects that if David tapdanced *on* the Ark, there would have been smiting that day.)
(As someone who grew up going to a pentecostal church, I also find the idea of liturgical dance to be unutterably silly. Dancing in praise of God has value as an expression of joy, and an inspiration to others to joyful behaviour as well; therefore, dancing is an activity that properly belongs to the congregation, and not to specialists. I can vaguely grasp why people might dislike dancing in church, but having it permitted but restricted is bizarre.)
(Furthermore, do not diss Dr. Who, you who are not worthy to kiss the hem of Tom Baker's 3 metre-long scarf. Red Dwarf, the equal of the Doctor? It is to laugh. Ha!)
The British, after some toffe-nosed delibertaion in smoke filled and cocaine saturated boardrooms, would bring out their own versin - Liturgical Line-Morris Dancing - lead by a 21st century version of Lonny Donnegan
Liturgical morris dancing... oh my, what a thought.
I usually dance when I feel good, and when I happen to be on my feet. If more of the Mass were conducted while the congregation was standing - and if I loved God more and took more joy in His presence - I might jig during Mass.
Still, considering the dress codes standard among 21st-century Catholic churches, I would not do so in a linen ephod. It would, after all, be an occasion of scandal.
Histor
Actually what comes to my mind when I think of a man in a linen ephod is something along the lines of a sumo wrestler: http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004...20040216/
s7.jpg
than the garments a high priest would wear:
http://www3.telus.net/public/
kst...high_priest.jpg
Liturgical sumo wrestling?
Lamb, you should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting it.
KH, thanks for reminding me that you can actually do a reel to the "Lord of the Dance" (do you really call that move a slam? we call it a bang). Or...not. Frankly I don't imagine hard shoe dancing in liturgy. For Irish liturgical dance, I think a slip jig would be much more appropriate (though less manly, if the fellows are inclined to join in).
Actually, I do know an Irish musician who wrote all the music for his own wedding, and the piece for the Offertory is, in fact, a slip jig. It's very pretty, but it always brings to mind some graceful girl in a flowy white dress dancing the gifts down the aisle, and that is Not A Good Thing.
Sure beats Polka Masses at Holy Spirit Parish in Kent, Washington. But then anything would.
"On Eagles' Wings" was the song used at my stepfather's recent funeral. I hardly think it's the worst out there.
But not to buzzkill here: (Insert witty, irrelevant silly comment here.)
if I loved God more and took more joy in His presence - I might jig during Mass.
I must admit to similar limitations - I never danced much in church myself, I was never quite joyous enough to get my groove on in front of other people. But I was generally edified by the rest of the congreation dancing - it added to a general atmosphere of celebration, and hence, that there was something to celebrate.
Curiously, it wasn't the youth who danced in church at all - it was generally middle-aged people who were happy, wanted to show it, and didn't care what other people thought. There was one thoroughly awesome old woman who used to witness at bus stops, who danced around in church until the age of about 80, when she got slowed down a bit by having a hip replacement.
(The thread's ground to a halt at only 137 comments? Woe.)
The youth don't want to let on that they enjoy church lest their parents notice and make them go to church more.
And it is bad that nobody is commenting after 138 comments. And consider that most of those comments have been on dancing or sci-fi.
Histor
It wasn't even that, in our case. We wanted to go to church, if only to meet friends. We just didn't have that kind of gleeful abandonment of dignity that leads people to hop around clapping in praise of God; it seemed you needed to be at least 35 for that. Or at least, not an angsty teenager.
Tho apropos of David & dancing, our church did have its limits. The worship group once introduced a catchy song based on David's response to his wife when she complained of his dancing in public - "I will dance/I will sing/to be glad before my king/nothing lord is hindering this passion in my soul.... and IIIIII'll become/Even more undignified than this (na na na na na na, hey) IIIIIIII'll become even more undignified than this." Alas, despite being soundly biblical and having a good tune, it drew complaints from the congregation and was withdrawn from use.
JaneC - Oh, the nomenclature of Irish dance is about as organized as a feis! Bang/stamp/slam...
Batter/shuffle/rally/treble...
And don't even start with the flutters, fishies, bicycles...
But my favorite ID malapropism has to be the "pachenko", a new move where you do a mid-air 360 in a run. It comes from figure skaters. As in...Victor Petrenko.
But, to tie this back into liturgical dance, I just-this-minute got off the phone with my dance teacher who wondered if she should accept an offer for us to go dance...at a (Catholic) grammar school liturgy. "Oh, no; with all the ceili teams you have going to the Oireachtas this year? We have no time to put together appropriate choreography!" "Yes, I think you're right..."
And another one bites the dust.
+J.M.J+
>>>(The thread's ground to a halt at only 137 comments? Woe.)
Not if I can help it! Okay, let's pad it out with a little trivia:
The tune to "Lord of the Dance" is actually a Shaker tune called "Simple Gifts." Here are the original lyrics:
'Tis the gift to be simple, 'tis the gift to be free,
'Tis the gift to come down where we ought to be,
And when we find ourselves in the place just right,
'Twill be in the valley of love and delight.
When true simplicity is gained,
To bow and to bend we shan't be ashamed,
To turn, turn will be our delight,
Till by turning, turning we come round right.
The Shakers used dance in their worship meetings, and there was a particular dance step that went with this song (it's not like the liturgical dancing we're used to, though).
"Lord of the Dance" was written by the late Sydney Carter, a British songwriter who penned a number of unconventional hymns. This one was apparently a protest against what he considered the stiffness and solemnity of Anglican liturgical worship. He chose to set it to the music of a Shaker song because of their use of dance in worship.
In Jesu et Maria,
+J.M.J+
>>>"On Eagles' Wings" was the song used at my stepfather's recent funeral.
I've heard it at a few funerals as well. It's apparently popular.
I wonder if it's possible for me to write in my will that I don't want "On Eagles' Wings" sung at my funeral, but "Dies Irae" instead.
In Jesu et Maria,
Most things like that are possible. Or at least to have your wishes known to loved ones.
Speaking of which, I understand that the Sanctuary is supposed to have the proper respect, but why the heck is it that in the modern Catholic Church if you were to so much as hop a little jig, you'd be looked at as a complete heathen? Especially given the example of David.
Shouldn't we WANT to be that moved for joy, rather than funeral somber during Mass? I also find what people think is acceptable wear to be rather 1950s at least. Nobody normally dresses like that anymore. What about the poor, who can't afford to constantly be getting fancy clothes and keeping them washed every weekend? I doubt the peasants in the middle ages had wonderful clothes to go to Mass in and show how much God must love them by giving them nice stuff. It seems very Calvinist of us. Were the peasants not welcome ever at Mass?
Maybe they should have two sections, the fancy dress up section at Mass and the peanut gallery for normal folks. I'm a bit tired of people worrying more about what people wear into church than what THEY'RE doing there.
+J.M.J+
>>>Speaking of which, I understand that the Sanctuary is supposed to have the proper respect, but why the heck is it that in the modern Catholic Church if you were to so much as hop a little jig, you'd be looked at as a complete heathen? Especially given the example of David.
The Western cultural tradition we have inherited did not develop a place for dance in worship (with occasional exceptions such as the Shakers and some aspects of Pentecostalism, but for the most part the rule stands). Therefore it is not considered appropriate in most churches in the West. I believe it is common and permitted in African Catholic churches, however, because of the place of dance in African religious practice. Of course, it would be more traditional African dancing, not what we know as "liturgical dance."
King David came from a very different culture, in which dancing was part of religious expression. Elements of this still exist among some Jewish groups (Hasidim, I believe) and many Messianic Jews do something similar which they call "Davidic dancing".
>>>Maybe they should have two sections, the fancy dress up section at Mass and the peanut gallery for normal folks. I'm a bit tired of people worrying more about what people wear into church than what THEY'RE doing there.
Wow, I wish I could find a Catholic parish where the people actually cared about what they wore to Mass! In my experience it's mostly jeans-and-t-shirts or shorts-and-tank-top during the summer (the low-rider jeans with large-lettered words blazoned across the backside are particularly annoying).
IMHO one doesn't have to dress ultra-fancy at Mass as long as you look presentable - at least a little better than your everyday clothes. As for the poor, it's interesting to note that African-Americans, in my experience, dress very nicely for church even if they're by no means wealthy. They make an effort to look their very best for God on Sunday - if the rest of us only did 1/3 as well as they do it would be acceptable, I think. That's all I'm saying....
In Jesu et Maria,
I usually do a mental hornpipe just before I genuflect.
See, that's the thing though, if you were to so much as hop for joy in church, you'd get people thinking you were sinful and irreverent. I'll bet if you ask in blogoland out here you'll find someone insisting somber Masses are what God wants, and that the African Catholics are somehow wrong and less Catholic for it.
And, as far as clothing goes, if people really think God loves you more for wearing pretty clothes, it's a bit of a problem actually. Fortunately, I think most people don't have this level of vanity and are fussy about what you wear to church as more of a respect thing. However, to say something like "shorts, even khaki are irreverent and you cannot wear them here" is a problem.
First, it's subjugating the poor to standards they may or may not be able to afford. I'm glad for those black folks near you, but I know for a fact that many poor people cannot afford constant laundering or buying new clothes.
Second, and more importantly, it turns people who need salvation off when they peek into a Church and feel out of place because they're not in fancy clothes and the sign, I kid you not, sign says they have to be wearing certain things. While I think it's fine if people want to wear fancy things, it should not be expected as a condition of entering. At that church, I feel uncomfortable sometimes if I'm in khaki shorts. You know what, when the weather is hot outside, it makes NO sense to wear ultra long and hot pants, especially to a non air-conditioned building.
When people want to go to daily Mass there, what if they're working for a living at a place that doesn't wear acceptable "business" clothing? Should the baker be unwelcome at noon Mass because he or she has no time to change in the hour (if they're lucky) lunch break? Wouldn't it be better for them to brush off as best they can, remove the apron and throw some water on their face, and go to be with Jesus, rather than be made to feel unwelcome for not wearing "business" clothes to church? What is this supposed to be anyway, a lunch meeting to schmooze with other business types, or Mass?
Oh, boy. *Now* we're going to get up to 500 comments.
Jarnor23, when we're dressing for Mass we're dealing with several different issues: modesty, respect for each other, cultural differences in clothing standards, appropriateness and reverence, etc.
I've written before about how the "we have to dress up for God" argument won't wash, because if that were the case we'd never be allowed to enter a church in casual attire, even if we were there to clean the church.
However, Sunday Mass is our chief liturgical celebration, the time when we gather as God's family. It does make sense to dress a bit more nicely on that occasion than we might if we were stopping by to put up Christmas decorations, for Saturday confession, or even if we're catching a daily Mass on our way to work at a construction site.
Now, does this mean we have to buy and wear fancy party clothes to Sunday Mass? Actually, it's every bit as inappropriate to wear a ball gown or tuxedo to Sunday Mass as it is to wear shorts. Showy ostentation is as inappropriate as casual sloppiness, in other words.
But shorts are (generally) inappropriate for Mass because they are without a doubt suited to the most casual of functions: outdoor barbecues, beach gatherings, sporting events of various types, and the like. Shorts are generally considered inappropriate for nicer events and locations, and even in our increasingly casual society a man or woman would hesitate before wearing shorts to a fairly nice restaurant, to a downtown office building, or to a dinner party.
It's true that Mass isn't a social event, but neither is it a come-as-you-are party, strictly speaking. Speaking of the interior state, we have to be properly disposed to receive the graces from assisting at Mass, and if we wish to receive our Lord in Holy Communion we have to "clean up" our souls by a good examination of conscience followed by sacramental Confession if the examen turns up any mortal sins. Do these requirements mean that God doesn't love sinners? Not at all; but He does expect us to make the effort to live lives of Christian holiness if we want to experience the fullest participation in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that is possible for us.
But if it's important for us to have the proper interior disposition to receive the graces at Mass, why do we think that it doesn't matter if we roll out of bed, toss on the crumpled shorts we wore yesterday, find a tee-shirt whose message isn't *too* obscene, and show up just in time for Sunday Mass? God may know our hearts, but it doesn't show a lot of love of neighbor to present ourselves this way; nor does it signify that Sunday Mass is any more important to us than the soccer game we're going to immediately afterward. During the week, as you said, the baker is merely pausing in his day's labor to attend daily Mass; but Sunday is supposed to be dedicated to God and focused on Him; can't we make a small effort to dress as though Sunday Mass itself were the high point of our day and not a mere afterthought squeezed in between washing the car and watching sports on television?
>>>I'll bet if you ask in blogoland out here you'll find someone insisting somber Masses are what God wants, and that the African Catholics are somehow wrong and less Catholic for it.
Well, other people could say just about anything, but if the Church is okay with African Catholics dancing then it's all right by me.
>>>And, as far as clothing goes, if people really think God loves you more for wearing pretty clothes, it's a bit of a problem actually.
Who thinks that?
>>>Fortunately, I think most people don't have this level of vanity and are fussy about what you wear to church as more of a respect thing. However, to say something like "shorts, even khaki are irreverent and you cannot wear them here" is a problem.
Khaki irreverent? I sometimes dress my son in nice khaki pants, so I don't think so.
>>>While I think it's fine if people want to wear fancy things, it should not be expected as a condition of entering.
I agree, but I have also never heard of a Catholic parish that makes fancy attire a condition for entering the church. I've heard of Eastern Orthodox churches which require all women to wear long skirts and a veil before entering, but I've never heard of a Catholic church (in the US at least) that makes similar demands.
>>>When people want to go to daily Mass there, what if they're working for a living at a place that doesn't wear acceptable "business" clothing?
I guess it's called "Sunday best" for a reason. Nice clothes are for Sunday Mass, not necessarily weekday Masses. I guess if one wants to dress up for Holy Days of Obligation you could do that as well, but I don't think that ones "Sunday best" should be expected, let alone required, on weekdays.
In Jesu et Maria,
>if people really think God loves you more for wearing pretty clothes, it's a bit of a problem actually.
If they thought so, then they would think that fashion models were saints.
I speak for myself, but I dress up for Sunday Mass a) because it concentrates my mind and b) it shows respect at least equivalent to that given to business. I wear slacks, button-up shirt and tie, and (rarely) a coat, so I show God almost as much respect as your average white-collar worker shows his job.
Histor
>>> Oh, boy. *Now* we're going to get up to 500 comments.
Yeah, the conversation definitly has that potential now.
In Jesu et Maria,
>>I don't think that ones "Sunday best" should be expected, let alone required, on weekdays.
If you can morally wear the clothes in public, you can wear them to a weekday Mass. It only makes sense.
As for the Middle Ages: remember that medieval peasants had relatively few styles of clothes to choose between, and in all likelihood would only own two or three different outfits.
Histor
When I was a peasant in the middle ages I had only one set of clothes. You should have smelt me in the winter PPFFEEEWWW!
At that church, I feel uncomfortable sometimes if I'm in khaki shorts.
Methinks the dude protests too much. Are you really being persecuted by the other worshippers? Are they giving you the evil eye or something?
Maybe you were uncomfortable because... you were embarrassed to be showing up at Sunday Mass in khaki shorts! For crying out loud, man, put on some PANTS! I promise it won't kill you.
Sunday Mass is the ONLY event during the week that I get dolled up for. I put on my Sunday best, do my hair, makeup, wear heels. This is how I was raised and I still fondly recall my Easter hat, purse, and gloves. Maybe that's why it's such a big deal for me still.
Given that though I always try to assume the best in others. For teens, those jeans may actually be their BEST. They could've cost Mom & Dad $100's for those jeans. Or that family that showed up last week in shorts and flip flops I try to think perhaps they left the BBQ early so they could make it to Mass in time. God Bless them for being there. For some, it's a reflection of how they view their relationship with God as approachable, as friend, as Daddy. I don't deny them that.
I don't think it really helps me to properly dispose myself for Mass, as someone pointed out earlier, when I'm scanning the congregation for "inappropriate" attire and then assuming the worst of them.
I would agree about not scanning for inappropriate attire. After all, it's an occasion of sin, or so I am told by wiser folks than I.
Histor
Ah, Histor, it's a near occasion of sin, much as my grinding of teeth over the music, and sometimes Father's homily can be for me. And, seriously, can you skip the Confiteor, the Gloria, and the Creed all in the same Mass? Apparently, one can.. ARRRRGH!
But, just to get back on topic, no doubt sumo wrestling liturgical dancers could be appropriate for the Hiroshima Memorial Mass. Just kidding folks.
And obviously, Snape is the antichrist and DS9 is the best of the Star Trek series. And isn't it great that only earth folks have gotten beyond religion, while the Klingons, Vulcans and many other people's religions are still considered "sacred".
Come on, guys, Jimmy Akin has a post that has already passed 500! (although not nearly as amusing) Can we allow Mark to fall behind? Perish the thought.
# 157
Just to let you know
+J.M.J+
>>>I would agree about not scanning for inappropriate attire. After all, it's an occasion of sin, or so I am told by wiser folks than I.
FWIW, I don't scan for it, but it's hard to not notice when they sit in the pew right in front of me - as did the teenage girl with the low-cut jeans mentioned above. I had to move to another pew; I find such trampy styles highly offensive even outside of church. If any kind of clothing should be banned from church, it should be that. I'd rather sit near someone wearing dirty rags than that.
I know of an Eastern Orthodox church that provides veils and such in the narthex for women who want to go in and pray. Too bad we can't provide wrap-around skirts or something like that in the narthex of our parish churches for girls who wear such immodest modern styles to "cover up" before entering.
In Jesu et Maria,
ultra long... hot pants
Isn't that an oxymoron?
And how long is ultra long? Do they go over your flip-flops and stick out forward past your toes?
Luckily, I was able to take Rosemarie's place after she moved to another pew.
Unfortunately, I fell asleep. I always fall asleep in the the narthex. I wonder if I have some kind of disease.
And isn't it great that only earth folks have gotten beyond religion, while the Klingons, Vulcans and many other people's religions are still considered "sacred".
Western culture writ large, that. We're beyond Christianity, but Islam, Buddhism etc are still sacred. (Pointless discussion suggestion: The white-male-dominated Federation is clearly western civilisation on steroids; Klingons correspond roughly to Islam in being a warrior culture/religion; what would the Vulcans correspond to? Zen Buddhism?)
+J.M.J+
>>>DS9 is the best of the Star Trek series
That was the ST series I liked best. But I still preferred Babylon 5.
In Jesu et Maria,
I wonder if it's possible for me to write in my will that I don't want "On Eagles' Wings" sung at my funeral, but "Dies Irae" instead.
Going back a bit, but I don't see why you couldn't. My grandfather, although he died from complications and neglect a few weeks following a broken hip, knew maybe a year out--in that way that people sometimes do--that his time was nearing, so he did as much preparation for his own funeral as he could (which was a great relief to us). I don't know if he actually picked out the music, but if he had, it would have taken a Special Kind of liturgical minister to thwart his wishes.
I would agree about not scanning for inappropriate attire. After all, it's an occasion of sin, or so I am told by wiser folks than I.
If you're also willing to listen to people less wise than yourself, I'll agree that it can be an occasion of sin. At the church I've been attending lately, the young ladies who only seem to be adhering to modern standards of modesty tend to sit in the front, so I find myself wishing I'd moved back as far as possible. Even when I'm not struggling with uncharitable thoughts and judging their piety based on the care they took in dressing, I'm still thinking about the struggle to resist having those thoughts. Is that better or worse than being distracted by the abuses or irregularities taking place in the sanctuary?
I usually try to put on a tie, myself, since it's a little nicer than what I normally wear to work, but I leave the jacket at home just to prevent a sweatstorm. Some of my shirt collars are a bit small for my neck, but I suppose I could just try to hold it closed with the tie instead of buttoning it first....
And for the love of God, will no one mention Blake's 7?
"what would the Vulcans correspond to? Zen Buddhism?"
No James, the Vulcans are LOGICAL. They wouldn't fall for any of that garbage. They would be more like the Stoics, who are more-or-less obsolete.
I think something those who like to say "blah blah doth protest too much" need to think about is that the truly innocent can protest to being hauled to the death chamber as much or more so than the guilty.
Not that I'm necessarily innocent, but I've always found it a invalid tactic to use that tries to make you look clever by quoting Shakespeare.
Also, some of us who protest too much just like protesting.
Seriously though, you should see how some of the old ladies' fashion police club can glare at that certain parish...
My point, even if you did flee a BBQ to make it in time to the Mass, at least you took it seriously enough to come as per your obligation. Most people don't anymore. Please don't give people crap who actually cared enough to attend.
Well, if I don't watch B7, maybe I shouldn't be surprised that no one else does, either.
Have any of you tried to place the Bajorans against a real-world analog? Having their gods--never did understand why they were called prophets--just be atemporal aliens took some of the plausibility out of it for me, but the characters (except for the occasional villain, natch) were generally respectful rather than condescending.
I thought there might be some hay to be made from comparing the orbs to the sacraments, but I haven't seen quite enough of the show to judge if they did a good job of drawing a parallel, or if they even wanted to.
At least they didn't dance.
Um, and Harry Potter is the antichrist who will bodily spring forth from the pages a thousand years after the publication date of the Philospher's Stone to usher in Armageddon. So there, now I'm on topic again.
>>>"They would be more like the Stoics, who are more-or-less obsolete."
Stoicism, my catechism teacher once told me, is the Dr. Spock philosophy of life.
But I know nothing about Dr. Spock.
Concerning Mass clothes: yes, we shouldn't dump on those who dare to attend Mass. We should, however, have standards all the same, and make said standards known in the parish. The alternative to standards on Mass clothes is no standards on Mass clothes.
Of course, I would only criticize those who have no good excuse for what they're wearing.
>>>Even when I'm not struggling with uncharitable thoughts and judging their piety based on the care they took in dressing, I'm still thinking about the struggle to resist having those thoughts. Is that better or worse than being distracted by the abuses or irregularities taking place in the sanctuary?
Equal. Anything that isn't itself sinful but distracts from the Mass is equal in badness, whether it's resistance against temptation, a missing button, or dancing girls in the sacristy. (Or HARRY POTTER, or HIROSHIMA *ahem*)
You know, if you and I were as holy as, say, St. Francis, we'd be so focused on the Holy Sacrifice that everyone else in church could be nude and we wouldn't notice. But that's a tad impractical.
Histor
Histor,
"if you and I were as holy as, say, St. Francis, we'd be so focused on the Holy Sacrifice that everyone else in church could be nude and we wouldn't notice"
I don't know that we could say such a thing. St. Padre Pio is an extremely Holy Soul, being a Franciscan St. Himself, yet he would not have allowed persons without proper attire even come to confession with him, let alone assist at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Of course, dress is important, but charity is needed. One wouldn't show up at a Presidential Ball after having just left a Bar-B-Que, so why would we think it alright to do this for the Feast of All Feasts, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb? Clearly then, it is unacceptable to do this out of negligence or carelessness. However; there is no sense in adding guilt on top of guilt, so by all means one should go to Mass in this case, but they should also feel a very real and healthy sense of shame for their lack of respect. Others should not judge them though. They should regard such persons with the benefit of doubt and assume their clothes were stolen, or destroyed by fire before they impugn any guilt upon those who appear to be disrespectful.
Are we talking any President, or this one?
If excluding some by standards, we should not worry about dress and leave the standards up to God.
Oh, and did your professor say Dr. Spock or Mr. Spock? There's a big difference.
Mr. Spock, the one in Star Trek. NOT Dr. Benjamin Spock.
What did Dr. Spock do to get his name in Star Trek, anyway?
what is "narthex for women"?
?
Janor23
"If excluding some by standards, we should not worry about dress and leave the standards up to God."
I believe there is a certain parable about someone who showed up at a wedding feast without the appropriate attire. How did it go again? I think God does care about the dress code at The Marriage Supper of the Lamb
+J.M.J+
>>> what is "narthex for women"?
Maybe I should have put a comma in there, like this:
I know of an Eastern Orthodox church that provides veils and such in the narthex, for women who want to go in and pray.
It wasn't a narthex for women, just the church's narthex. The veils they kept there were for women who wanted to visit and pray before the icons. Sorry for not being clear.
In Jesu et Maria,
John,
I think the parable is not so much about our "earthly" garments and robes as it is about our "spiritual" garments and robes.
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall exult in my God; for he has clothed me with the garments of salvation, he has covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decks himself with a garland, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels. Isaiah 61:10
Being clothed with rags, from what I understand, is our human condition. It is only God's grace that clothes us with the garments of salvation and robe of righteousness:
“Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.” Zechariah 3:1-4
"All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags." Isaiah 64:6
Rosemarie,
I was joking.
Narthex just sounded like some kind of Rx drug for women.
His Little Lamb,
No doubt yours is a very plausable tropological sense of the passage. However, there can be multiple senses applied to Scripture. The principle of the passage is to be found in the literal and it still stands without contradiction to your sense; one should not disrespect the Marriage Supper of the Lamb by showing up in clothes more suitable for recreational activity unless said person is left without a choice. The clothes could be physically attached to his body, or spiritually attached to his soul. Either way, it is to be considered as shameful to disrespect the liturgy in mind or body.
>>>Narthex just sounded like some kind of Rx drug for women.
Hmmm, let's see:
NARTHEX is a prescription drug that should only be taken by patients experiencing one of the following diseases: cooties, lurgy, space mumps or rabbititis. It has been proven 53% effective against these disorders versus 47% effectiveness of a placebo.
Pregnant women, or women who plan to become pregnant, should avoid taking NARTHEX and handling broken tablets, unbroken tablets, the prescription bottle containing the tablets and the little baggie the pharmacist puts the perscription bottle in. NARTHEX tablets should not be split, crushed, sneezed on or laughed at.
Tell your doctor if you have ever been addicted to video games, or if you are now addicted to video games. Rare side effects include hiccups, eyelid twitching, the willies and the urge to silly walk. The most serious side effects from NARTHEX are blurred vision, dizziness, atrophy of the uvula and spontaneous human combustion. If you experience these symptoms call your doctor immediately. Also tell your doctor if you have the vapors when taking NARTHEX, since this could be a sign of a serious problem.
Ask your doctor about NARTHEX today. If he says you don't need it, ask him why not. If he still insists you don't need it, threaten him with a large blunt object until he writes a big prescription with lots of refills.
In Jesu et Maria,
IGA.
What, did the active ingredient in NARTHEX fall to Earth, presumably from space, too? Has it been known to cause spontaneous abortions or singing and dancing?
I'd like to see someone insist on a prescription just to see if she could convince her doctor he's not up to date on his pharmacology.
I meant to ask sooner: if Hiroshima and Nagasaki were military cities, basically city-sized military bases, would bombing them for strategic purposes (even while we hoped to send a demoralizing message) have been licit?
>>>Has it been known to cause spontaneous abortions or singing and dancing?
Hmmm, too bad I didn't think to write: "NARTHEX has been known to cause liturgical dancing." At least that would have kept it on topic!
In Jesu et Maria,
I was thinking that NARTHEX was some kind of gateway drug.
;Q
Wow! I did a google search on Narthex and I found this video that ties in Narthex, linen ephod, and Hiroshima Nagasaki all in one dance!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=r4sDp_1brFg
WARNING: scantily clad men (hence the linen ephod reference)
Ed,
I'm no expert, but I think it's the "indiscriminate" nature of atomic weapons that merits unequivocal condemnation:
CCC 2314
"Every act of war directed to the indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants is a crime against God and man, which merits firm and unequivocal condemnation."110 A danger of modern warfare is that it provides the opportunity to those who possess modern scientific weapons—especially atomic, biological, or chemical weapons—to commit such crimes.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ca...sm/
p3s2c2a5.htm
JAW DROP!!
Unveiled women reading NOW blog!
* Caution *
Illicit laughter
I don't think this will make it to 500 without some more controversy.
Question: Is refusing to wear a veil in Church a mortal or venial sin?
I'm certain it's never a mortal sin for men.
NARTHEX is NOT a prescription drug. It is the Nuclear Alternative Really Terrific High Explosive. Ten troy ounces of it would be destroy everything over a five mile circle, with the caveat that it only affects bad people, buildings not containing good people, and empty buildings that are not good, authentic architecture given the style of the locale.
Dogs, cats, and songbirds are unaffected in all cases.
No cats? Then what good is it?
His Little Lamb, my question at this point might be clearer if I changed the conditions a bit. Instead of a city, what if we had a military base somewhere on its own and a tactical nuke just big enough to destroy the base? If such a device existed, it was my understanding that its use against legitimate targets (with proportionate collateral damage, I guess, but I'm getting ahead of myself) was licit.
I mean, "indiscriminate destruction" isn't just a question of an undefinable quantity of property that can be made into rubble with a single act, is it?
"what if we had a military base somewhere on its own and a tactical nuke just big enough to destroy the base?"
Obviously, military bases are legitimate targets in warfare, although they usually have housing for the soldiers' families on-base.
Part of the problem with nuclear weapons is that the fallout is likely to harm civilians who weren't near the target, or even weren't alive when the target was bombed. So even with an indisputably military target, nuclear bombs could harm as many civilians as soldiers.
Which makes me suspect that nuclear bombs can't be used in any case.
Histor
What the heck is a Rick Roll, anyway?
Histor
Histor,
Just noticed your question. A Rick Roll is where you are decieved by expecting to view something of interest and instead end up viewing a specific musical video. A very very tormentingly bad musical video; one that has a train wreck like mesmerizing quality to it.
On that note, I think some liturgical dance tips can be picked up from : http://youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU .
Histor, the military families living on base was one of the factors I was hoping to consider; even if Nagasaki were a legitimate strategic target and every resident capable of offering resistance did so, there would still be people too young,old, or infirm to pick up a gun or sword; but we would find the same on a residential military base. The simple answer would be to avoid the family housing or all housing altogether, but it's not always possible. So we have to make a reasonable effort to avoid harming them (or better yet, use strategies to maximize captures vis-a-vis casualties, if your enemy isn't taking a death-before-capture approach), but how much is "reasonable?" Absolutely refusing to engage under such conditions? Something more "nuanced?"
What if we had some kind of gamma or neutron bomb that didn't drop or create much residual radioactive material? I don't know if such a thing exists, if something powerful enough to be useful could be clean enough to answer the fallout problem you mentioned. If it ended up being another question of proportionality, I'm sure "likely to harm civilians who weren't even alive when the target was bombed" would still disqualify it. We didn't have much of an understanding of that in 1945, though, did we?
Ed The Roman,
Of course it is never so for males. Sorry for my imprecision. Is it venially or mortally sinful for a woman to assist at Mass without having her head covered?
Ed the Roman, I think you're misinformed. NARTHEX only destroys ugly churches, leotards worn by liturgical dancers, and unsigned copies of Harry Potter books--but for reasons of historical complexity, it evaporates over Japan and has no effect there at all.
That is a variant which the program office cancelled when they remembered the physiques of those who WEAR the leotards, and the risk of destroying them while they are being worn.
In public view.
Do you think that might at least have deterred them from wearing the leotards in public, or at least before the sanctuary, in the future? Erm, from wearing less destroyed, replacement leotards?
Anyone still laying odds on getting to 500?
+J.M.J+
If the count is correct, this would be post #200.
We're 2/5ths of the way to our goal, but I'm not sure we'll make it the way things are going.
In Jesu et Maria,
That's cause you've been posting without a mantilla on, Rosemarie. Evil, evil, evil.
And as for the non-veiling in church: if it's done to cause trouble or offend other churchgoers it's a venial sin.
That's all I'm gonna post now.
That Narthex dance looked pretty gay. I suppose there must be some cultural angle there, but it escaped me. Maybe it was a dance presentation of the Evolution of Man.
His Little Lamb:
How do you find this stuff, or do you just have strange tastes?
I beg your pardon! I don't have "strange" tastes.
I found the video when "I did a google search on Narthex"
the title of the video is Narthex, it is being performed in Tokyo. The form of dance is called Butoh.
"Butoh loosely translated means stomp dance, or earth dance. Butoh is an avant garde performance art, that has its origins in Japan in the 1960's. After the second world war, Japan was a country in transition. It was a country still holding onto its old world traditional values while being forced into western democratic values by America's conquest. During this time there was much student unrest and protest.
Theatre groups were performing socially challenging pieces, and there were daily demonstrations in the streets. Butoh was born out of this chaos.
http://www.zenbutoh.com/history.htm
I thought it made an interesting companion to our discussion in the way it ties in so many of the elements being discussed. Hiroshima & Nagasaki, Narthex, Liturgical Dance and King David dancing before the Ark in a linen ephod...
It's gestalt!
chirp chirp... chirp chirp...
We can dance if we want to
We can leave your friends behind
'Cause your friends don't dance and if they don't dance
Well they're no friends of mine
I say, we can go where we want to, a place where they will never find
And we can act like we come from out of this world
Leave the real one far behind,
And we can dance
We can go when we want to
The night is young and so am I
And we can dress real neat from our hats to our feet
And surprise 'em with the victory cry.
Say, if I give you your hats back, will you leave?
Hey, it could be worse - we could be doing liturgical dance rather than the Safety Dance.
Liturgical Safety Dance:
We can dance if we want to
We can dance before the Lord
We can twirl in place and stare into space
And you can clap if you're not bored.
We can dance if we want to
Up the aisle and in your face
And if our tights were tighter at all
We'd be an even bigger disgrace.
We can dance
We can dance
The bishop said we could
We can dance
We can dance
And we're not even good
We can dance
We can dance
Everybody wishes we'd pass
We can dance
We can dance
Except at Latin Mass....
(Non salus est...)
(Non salus est...)
Wake me up soon as they go girl
Cause I can't stand to see three hundred pounds twirl
Wake me up before you girl
Cause there's Mass dancin' tonigh-ight.
Is it just me, or does the tune to "Here I Am, Lord" morph into the theme from the Brady Bunch in anyone else's head?
It is not just you.
Also try "I Fall On My Knees" and "My Wild Irish Rose".
And "Sing of the Lord's Goodness" and "Take Five".
+J.M.J+
The music ministry at one parish in my area sometimes plays a contemporary (Evangelical) worship song called "Open the Eyes of My Heart." The music to the line: "I want to see You, I want to see You" sounds so much like U2's "Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For" where Bono sings "Only to be with you, only to be with you." I can't hear the former song without thinking of the latter.
Granted, I make similar associations while listening to pop music (part of Survivor's "High on You" somewhat resembles Frankie Valli's "Who Loves You," for instance). Maybe I should make a list someday of "sound-alike songs" - actually, I'll bet someone somewhere on the Internet has probably beaten me to it....
In Jesu et Maria,
How about the moving and venerable hymn "My Sweet Lord" and the sappy pop song "He's so Fine"?
Or was HSF the venerable hymn and MSL the sappy pop song? I can't remember now.
My Sweet Lord would be so much more moving to me if it were not about the Lord Sri Rama Krsna.
The Supreme Personality of Godhead, that is.
At least that's how the cuties in the airport described him.
Oh. It must be He's so Fine that's the hymn then.
Pah. A really good hymn is Hello, I Love You by the Doors.
I'm not sure why, but it is. It has a stomping beat, which helps.
Histor
#222
Its taking a while - I don't think it'll hit 500 unless we make a separate
comment
for
each
word
Wow,
Don(kiwi),
how.....
DISHONEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I fear it will still not be enough though. This thread is buried so deep that it might as well be the Clintons' financial records or evidence of governmental wrongdoing in Iraq.
Commenting by HaloScan
