Please! I was eating my Cheerios when this thing popped up...
I personally wonder if there is not a connection between the generally disordered sexualities of the DNC membership and the almost erotic messianism surrounding Obamamania. Pictures like this confirm it for me.
And is that his belt buckle or is he holding a "Barack" Chocolate or Soap Bar? Perhaps he plans to feed or wash the white Stallion frolicking in the firey sea behind him...or maybe he is bringing chocolate and roses to the masses...
Back to my now neglected (but far more appetizing) Cheerios...
With each letter MM types, keeps pushing me towards McCain and further away from Obama....and makes me wonder...
Actually, this one is *deliberately* tongue in cheek, as the artist was lampooning the starry-eyed devotion of the Obama fans.
this one is *deliberately* tongue in cheek
That says it all. Let's see the next example of "Obama's" messianism.
SJ- how 'bout this?
http://www.rockymountainnews.com...r-obama-speech/
Cheers!
What about it? He's scheduling his speech for the same day as MLK's? If utilizing covenient calendar coincidences to compare oneself to MLK is the messianism we're supposed to be worrying about, I'm going back to bed.
sj - maybe you should do a little more research on Obama's supposed messianism. Vox Nova is not the place to look for it, though....
...and let me know how that works for you. I am going back to work.....
that picture is awesome, it would only be better if it were in velvet. and there was a rainbow. and a fighter jet. with lasers coming out of his eyes. and he actually looked like obama instead of apollo creed.
Never read Vox Nova. Well, I did once when following one of Mark's links. The inane bickering bored me. It does seem that the best examples of "Obama messianism" come from the minds of McCain supporters, with Mark's image here being exhibit A.
Nah, SJ: try obamamessiah.blogspot.com.
I also hear that Obama's plan to combat hunger, poverty and homelessness involves multiplying fish and loaves.
*chirp chirp*
don't forget to tip your waitress...
It must be hard to breathe, with your head stuck so deep in the sand, sj.
I suppose you missed the speech Obama made about stemming rising ocean levels and ending world hunger if everybody just elects him pwesident.
Dale:
Is it a lampoon? If so, I will, of course, have to sadly retract. However, there's plenty more where that came from.
If you have a link on the.... thing's origin, could you send it along? I just ran across it last night and it cracked me up.
Many thanks!
Someone should post it on the Daily Kos and see how the faithful react...
If you look closely, that's no a stallion. It's a unicorn.
I think that the image is supposed to be a crossover of Barack Obama and Elvis, but that may only be because that we do not see enough of the lower body to confirm that the figure is, or is not, wearing a jumpsuit.
It would explain why the figure is reminiscent of Barack, instead of a stronger resemblance.
Like I said, the best examples of Obama messianism seem to come from the minds of his opponents. "Loaves and fishes", indeed.
JonathanR. gets to a more serious point about politicians in general and Obama in particular --- is promising to do big things overreaching?
Is that bird droppings on his head?
sj, you can pretend that the "Obama as Messiah" motif is imaginary because you take examples of the messianism in Obama's campaign or amongst his followers in isolation. Taken by themselves, any one example that overtly expresses messianic symbolism or that subtly lends itself to such a narrative is indeed unremarkable and can be explained away. It is when you take these collectively see them being put forward repeatedly, however, that you are starting to deny the obvious.
You and others who deny the Messiah complex of Obama's campaign are like a detective who, in coming across a crime scene, says "I see an open safe, a body, a bloody knife, a broken window, and several letters with such words as 'blackmail,' 'affair,' and 'pictures' in them, but I fail to see how these things, taken individually, point to any sort of crime having occurred here."
Do a Google image search on the prominent politician of your choice -- say Ronald Reagan or, heaven help us, George W. Bush, and you'll find a plethora of messiah imagery. Even worse, do the same search on any rock musician from Elvis on. What does that prove? That in a nation of 300 million, there are a lot of us out there who love painting our hero with reference to other worldly concepts. I'm not going to even try to see what searching for Jerry Garcia or Dale Earnhardt images will produce.
This is becoming a repeat of the torture debate. "O what on earth is messianism anyway?...I'm SO confused."
Or go to an NFL game and listen to the bombastic music that accompanies the home team's introduction.
Again the denial, sj. I have never seen in any presidential election since I became old enough to pay attention to them the sheer volume and frequency of campaign rhetoric, campaign and fan art, fan music, photographs, and remarks by supporters that invoke "other worldly concepts" than what I have seen generated by Obama's candidacy. You go ahead keep shutting your eyes and plugging your ears, though, and saying "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU! THIS ISN'T REALLY HAPPENING!"
I suppose Scott's comment makes the case that this is a ridiculous discussion to be having. Go forth and sin no more. Ooops.
It is a ridiculous discussion but ridiculous discussion is all that has been coming out of the McCain camp. It is sad to see Mark buying into the messianism crap. Is he compared to Jesus more often than Bush, Clinton, or Reagan were? Maybe a little, but just a little. People forget. Modern politics is based on the assumption that people forget very fast.
To me, the ability to make great speeches amd move crowds is a plus. If McCain could do it the Republicans would all be saying how great it is to have a president that can do that. Of course, it has nothing to do with policy. Way to much of politics has nothing to do with policy.
Randy:
I've been remarking on the secular messianism of the Obama campaign for months. If anything, the McCain people have only creaked into action noticing it in the past couple of weeks. There's nothing to "buy into". It's there. Pretending it's not there is silly.
I've never said it's *unique* to Obama. On the contrary, I've pointed out repeatedly that it's a common theme in American politics.
What I do think is that the Obama campaign is the most over-the-top expression of secular messianism in American political history. It's just so deliciously lampoonable I can't resist laughing at it. Just when you think those guys will get some sense of perspective, some drooling cultie comes out with a new hymn of prayer to the One.
So, yeah: I do think the cult of Obama far exceeds any of the (truly ridiculous) things said about Reagan or Bush (and there have been some utterly ridiculous things said of them). You have to go back to the hagiography of Lincoln and Washington to approach the levels of sheer messianic nuttiness surrounding Obama. And they had the dignity to be dead when people were exalting them to various pantheons and apotheoses. Obama is still alive and kicking as he feed and encourages this foolish drunkeness of soul. It will come back to bite him on the butt if, God forbid, he is elected and expected to live up to the impossibly huge hype. His worshippers will eat him alive, as people who blaspheme the Eucharist tend to do. Being eaten is what happens to all gods sooner or later (but only one God is able to actually be eaten by his worshippers).
There's nothing as bitter as a fall from heaven. It gives you *such* hangover!
His supporters are Legion; for they are many.
"Is he compared to Jesus more often than Bush, Clinton, or Reagan were?"
I don't recall anyone comparing Bush, Clinton, or Reagan to Jesus, although there may have been some overblown discussions of them doing "the will of God."
OTOH, there is so much messianic imagery surrounding Obama it's hard to ignore. The first piece I remember was that crazy sculpture of Obama dressed in a white robe and wearing a halo. That was not created by one of Obama's political opponents, but by a supporter.
Even Spike Lee, a man not particularly known for his religiosity, joined in on this farce when said we'd have to start measuring time "Before Obama" and "After Obama" if he is elected.
What I can't figure out is why so many Democrats keep playing this absurd game when there base is not into that sort of thing, and their opponents think it is at best, ridiculous, and at worst, blasphemous.
If a single conservative said something like:
"Look, we know what it's like to put too much faith in a political candidate. We did the same thing for eight years, and some of our support for Bush got pretty out of hand. And look where it got us: we were supporting a torturer and an incompetent. Take the word of someone who's been there, when you start investing too much in a political candidate, you are liable to be making a huge mistake."
hen perhaps I would take all this Obama criticism seriously. Oddly, no conservative has, so all this Obamessiah crap comes across as narrow partisan hackery.
Too bad, because there's a real opportunity grace and understanding here.
Phosphorius:
You don't appear to be all that familiar with my blog.
You might consider why I have an entire blog category called "Salvation Through Leviathan by Any Means Necessary".
I think the Obama fans here are giving far too much credit to McCain for coming up with this Messiah angle. The Messiah stuff concerning Obama has been around since the early part of the campaign - long before McCain even noticed there was some guy namemd Obama running. It was only after his staff started looking around for an angle and discovered it that he started doing his "do you want a messiah or a president?" ads.
If I remember correctly, the first mention I saw of the messianic angle was from venues like the Comedy Channel who were spoofing the swooning of Obamaites as he recited the latest vacuous messianic platitudes. Back then it was Hilary - not McCain who was the enemy.
Also consider the "Obama as Messiah" site someone linked above has been having fun with his quasi-Messianic pronouncements since November 2006. Kudos to the webmaster for his vision - he probably is getting thousands of hits a day. I imagine if McCain wins we'll see a painting of the passion of Barack.
Denying Obama's messianic complex is akin to denying George W has a problem expressing himself or denying Dick Cheyney is a megalomaniac. Even MSNBC is having trouble keeping a straigt face with this one.
Hey, Obamafans,
From your favorite politician:
"... a light will shine through that window, a beam of light will come down upon you, you will experience an epiphany ... and you will suddenly realize that you must go to the polls and vote for Obama" - Barack Obama Lebanon, New Hampshire.
January 7, 2008.
When I say "Obamafans," I'm really talking to those Obamafans who are reading this combox, not people commenting.
I basically agree with what Mark says about this being a common theme in American politics and the danger that it poses to he who is the subject of messianic adoration. With respect to Judith's comment about the Democratic base, I think it is a common theme in certain parts of the base. As has been pointed out, this sort of imagery is found in rock concerts. It may not be surprising that the first candidate to have been grown up post 1960s is getting rock star treatment. The African-American community has also historically utilized religious imagery in its perceptions of its secular situation. In his last speech, MLK makes a famous allusion to Moses gazing into the Promised Land:
"Because I've been to the mountaintop. And I don't mind. Like anybody, I would like to live a long life. Longevity has its place. But I'm not concerned about that now. I just want to do God's will. And He's allowed me to go up to the mountain. And I've looked over. And I've seen the promised land. I may not get there with you. But I want you to know tonight, that we, as a people, will get to the promised land. And I'm happy, tonight. I'm not worried about anything. I'm not fearing any man. Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord."
I can remember for years after June 1968 seeing pictures of JFK and MLK welcoming RFK to Heaven. Finally, I think the Internet has helped disseminate images that in years past would have been less widely seen.
Phosphorius:
You don't appear to be all that familiar with my blog.
I am not a close reader of your blog, but I know that during the height of Bush=worship, you were referring to Republicans as "The Stupid Party" and Democrats as "The Evil Party".
You'll forgive me if I suspect bias in your viewpoint.
Your criticism of Bush worship come at a time when they do no good. You could be a little less smug in your criticism of Obama worship.
"Look, we know what it's like to put too much faith in a political candidate."
Phosphorious, please show me a systematic pattern of campaign rhetoric, campaign and fan art, fan music, photographs, and remarks by supporters that invoke "other worldly concepts" from GWB's 2000 campaign that approaches the level of what has been generated by Obama's candidacy. We're not talking about occasional remarks by a right-leaning evangelical Christian preacher or a few bits of hagiographical art appearing after 9/11 -- I want something that amounts to a pervasive theme throughout Bush's campaign.
Whatever faith conservatives may have put in Bush, it generally was not of the messianic sort. It was mostly a "faith" that hoped for such limited things such as less government spending, rollbacks of Clinton-era pro-abortion policies, nominees to the federal bench who favored judicial restraint, and fewer adventures in nation-building abroad. Conservatives were indeed disappointed on many of these counts, and those who were will freely admit it. The contrast in the kind of mundane and limited "faith" of most conservatives who supported Bush, however, and the more quasi-messianic faith that seems so pervasive in Obama's campaign is such that it makes your attempt equate the two explicable only as willful blindness.
"Your criticism of Bush worship come at a time when they do no good. You could be a little less smug in your criticism of Obama worship."
I love this.
You all have been kissing &(*(*) the Republicans butts for as long as I can remember.
Hate to tell you this: I don't care if you knock on my door with a lighted bomb or fuse ... I AM STILL GOING TO VOTE DEMOCRAT AND PRO LIFE.
THOSE GUYS YOU WORSHIP SO MUCH LIE!!!!!!!!!!
What time am I picking you up at the airport? Too chicken to come to Tampa? Too Chicken to gather at my friend's house in Atlanta?
Too poor to get on a plane?
I know why! The Republicans stole your money that you were going to use to buy your wives another granny skirt and bandanna to cover her head.
I do think this needs to be connected with American civil religion in general. If JFK and FDR are idolized then why not think of Obama the same way? I do think democrats are more prone to this. They see government as more important and therefore presidents as more important. I do think converting this into partisan cheap shots makes an intellignet debate impossible.
The fact is that many see the potential for Obamam to be another JFK or FDR or Lincon or Washington. Is that blasphemy? To some it is. But it is just human to human comparison. Like comparing Tony Romo to Joe Montana. It is premature, optimistic, and unhelpful but it is only blasphemous if you are a 49er fan.
Back to the artwork: his shirt is amazingly white, having just forded the muddy Ohio River to escape slavery in the South...landing in Cincinnati, OH.
"What time am I picking you up at the airport? Too chicken to come to Tampa? Too Chicken to gather at my friend's house in Atlanta?
Too poor to get on a plane?
I know why! The Republicans stole your money that you were going to use to buy your wives another granny skirt and bandanna to cover her head."
Dear Jeanne Stark,
WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT?????
LIAM
WRITE CLEARLY..... AND SPEAK CLEARLY
It is interesting how we express our aspirations for our heroes by cloaking them in the garb of the admired past. I was at a flea market in Delaware once and saw a tapestry that a biker had made depicting a biker mounted on his bike in full regalia disembarking from a Viking ship.
Jeannes's off her meds.
Liam did write clearly. WTF?
Kentuckyliz ... I think it looks like he is landing in Northern Ky.
Jeanne:
Um, thanks for your input.
SJ:
FWIW, what first attracted my notice was not the imagery but the words. I found them both chilling and hilarious.
Phosphorious:
One of the marks of a political fool is that he looks for heretics instead of converts. I make no secret of the fact that I have been profoundly surprised to discover, in the past few years, that so-called conservatives are just as ready, willing and able to make excuses for grave evil as liberals do. I have long ago given up expecting liberals to stop lying through their teeth in defense of abortion (Pelosi is a recent example). What I, in my naivete did not expect was that so-called Faithful Conservative Catholics would indulge in the same tergiversation and bullshit on behalf of torture when Their Guy was doing it. As it (slowly) dawned on me that all that talk about rejecting the Dictatorship of Relativism was just bullshit for a lot of conservatives, I accordingly changed my view of the parties.
I tend to think of the parties as pre-exilic Israel and Judah. One has been apostate for a long time and has enshrined contempt for God in its core. The other is following suit a bit more slowly, but could well wind up inventing evils that dwarf what the Dems do just as Judah eventually managed to outstrip Israel in sin. The Dems have been committed, as a party, to the murder of children as their sole core belief for 35 years. The GOP, with its bellicose Wilsonianism, could well wind up Ending Evil by sparking a war that kills a lot more people. And the lah-di-dah attitude of it candidate to medical cannibalization could easily create a thriving industry that could outstrip all the abortuaries in the world in capitalist zeal for dollars over human life.
There are still honorable people in both. But the trend of both is inexorably toward various forms of contempt for Catholic teaching on matters of intrinsic immorality.
So give a guy some credit for a developing grasp of the American political scene.
And consider it possible that your guy is part of the problem.
I do want to thank you for one thing though: it's refreshing, after spending years getting beaten up by Bush shills, to suddenly be informed I am a GOP stooge again.
I AM STILL GOING TO VOTE DEMOCRAT AND PRO LIFE.
Don't know if you noticed (probably not), but those are mutually exclusive categories.
Dear Jeanne Stark,
I'm not sure how you deduce that lampooning Obama's obvious messiah complex turns someone into a Republican. If you check the posts on this blog, you would see the GOP is given equally harsh treatment. They are accused here of torture, war profiteering, and all manner of ills. In fact, I recall Mark's pet names for the two major parties are the "stupid evil party" and the "evil stupid party" but I don't recall which is which and the point is that it doesn't much matter. If you also read, you will find that Mark has stated emphatically he will not vote for McCain or Obama.
Amazing what you can learn when you do not treat barbs aimed at your candidate as an attack upon the Son of God.
"I do think this needs to be connected with American civil religion in general."
I would agree. Political partisans have made quasi-messianic appeals throughout our nation's history. It is possible to for certain camps to stand out in their recourse to such appeals from time to time, and I think that this is one of them.
"I do think democrats are more prone to this."
I would more specifically say that liberals are more prone to this, and the Democrats follow suit simply because that is the political home of most liberals. Conservatism tends more readily to acknowledge the tendency of human weakness and error to conspire against the common good, and this helps to put a check upon what conservatives should expect from their leaders. Liberalism, though, is more sanguine about the perfectibility of individuals, and this contributes to liberals having idealistic expectations of their leaders.
Oh man... this thread's becoming comedy gold in itself...
First we began with "There is no Obama-messiah propaganda", then we moved on to "Well, everyone's been doing that for years, so who can blame Obama...".
Plain and simple, Obama is riding a wave of pseudo-religious hype and deserves to be called on it. Mark, our host, has actually been quite good at pointing out the flaws in both parties over the past few years, so it's kind of absurd to come screaming out of nowhere accusing him of biased "political hackery".
Also, for what it's worth, when I (mistakenly in retrospect) voted for Bush over Kerry in the last election, it wasn't because I or anyone I knew thought he was a "lightworker", but because of issues like the fact that he didn't shamelessly defend the freedom to kill innocents like Kerry.
Fact of the matter is, Obama is for the killing of Children. His followers portray him as a miracle man... thus, he's fair game to be mocked for it.
But then we get to Jeanne...
"THOSE GUYS YOU WORSHIP SO MUCH LIE!!!!!!!!!! "
To which most responded with an understandable WFT? But I think the Christian response would be an attempt at honest communication. I believe the correct rejoinder in that vein is something like:
"ALL YOUR BASES ARE BELONG TO US!!! CAN I HAS A CHEEBURGER?"
or something like that...
"ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!! I CAN HAS CHEEZBURGER?"
Just want to make sure the great masters are quoted accurately.
. . . next on catholic and enjoying it, the parsing of McCain's "maverick" image and his use of "P.O.W.!!!!!" in retort to any criticism.
I would so totally vote for Walter Sobchak!
Bear:
Be patient. This week is the Dem Convention. Next week: the GOP!
Noun, verb, POW.
Yes, I will attend to The Maverick.
Victor:
Walter who?
I believe the correct rejoinder in that vein is something like:
"ALL YOUR BASES ARE BELONG TO US!!! CAN I HAS A CHEEBURGER?"
Actually, I believe that "NO U" would have been more appropriate.
"Phosphorious, please show me a systematic pattern of campaign rhetoric, campaign and fan art, fan music, photographs, and remarks by supporters that invoke "other worldly concepts" from GWB's 2000 campaign that approaches the level of what has been generated by Obama's candidacy."
2000? Nobody cared in 2000 who the president was.
But after 9/11, you can't really tell me that you didn't notice a "systematic pattern" of Bush-worship. Which makes it worse, no? they still didn't think much of Bush, but FORCED themselves to believe he was great, that God had chosen him.
Has anybody been refused communion for not voting for Obama? Has anybody been asked to repent or leave their church because they fail to support Obama? these things were done for Bush.
And again, the tone of all this Obama criticism is one of tu quoque: "libs" made fun of our guy, now it's our turn.
There's no sober recognition that a serious mistake might be being made. . .just as Bush worship led to our current torture regime, who knows where Obama worship will lead.
You are content to score cheap political points.
With just enough anti-republican mumbling to give you a veneer of "independence".
Victor:
Apologies... I'm a bit rusty...
THEY LIED. YOU ARE STUPID.
kthx.
You all said there were weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq when there were none.
I did? Or someone else here? Can you quote us on that?
There are no army people torturing people. To you there is nothing wrong with that. To you that is fine with our Catholic faith.
So wait... "Someone" (nebulous "you", perhaps Mark?) has no problem with the army "people"... er... not torturing people? I think the thing turely being tortured was that sentence...
Remember to say it correctly and with a very thick overstated midwestern small town small brained accent.
Say what correctly? It? The word "it" is kinda hard to say with an accent, in my opinion... Plus I really have no idea what a "small brained" accent sounds like...
And finally:
"It is time to put your foot in your mouth people."
What's a "mouth people"? Didn't know I had one... Perhaps it's like Chosen People? "And then God spoke to the nations through His mouth people..."
Oh, racists like me know so little... but what we wouldn't give for a little comma here or there...
"Whatever faith conservatives may have put in Bush, it generally was not of the messianic sort."
Really? You can't think of ANY over the top, Bush-is-the-greatest-thing-since-sliced-bread gushing?
Do you remember Ashcroft's hymn, composed to celebrate Bush?
Do you remember ANY of the last eight years?
When republicans do this, you don't see a probalem. when democrats do it, you criticize.
And call the whole thing "non-partisan".
Folks,
Before you lash out at Jeanne Stark, as much as she may richly deserve it, follow the link to her own blog and read a little.
Since I live in Atlanta, Jeanne, I'm more than willing to meet together if you need a sympathetic ear. My wife and I can't procreate either, barring the miraculous. We do plan, since we knew this before we ever married one another to go ahead and adopt or foster as soon as I finish my degree and can provide for our family. I do know how heartbreaking this is.
But I also know how damaging it is to let our anger grow to the point that we rant, rave and lie just to lash out. None of us have the right to try to hurt others because we hurt.
The sad thing about Obamassiahism is that the folks lining up to coronate him will probably be the first folks crying for his crucifixion when his Glorious Kingdom doesn't suddenly appear.
Making pretty promises and inspiring speeches is one thing. Governing is another, and I think a whole lot of folks are going to be very disappointed in President Obama.
Phos- *I* cared who was president in 2000. Therefore, your statement that "nobody cared" is patently false.
I tend to think of the parties as pre-exilic Israel and Judah. One has been apostate for a long time and has enshrined contempt for God in its core. The other is following suit a bit more slowly, but could well wind up inventing evils that dwarf what the Dems do just as Judah eventually managed to outstrip Israel in sin.
I often compare the two parties to Saruman and Sauron. The just can serve neither and must fight both.
"Has anybody been refused communion for not voting for Obama? Has anybody been asked to repent or leave their church because they fail to support Obama? these things were done for Bush."
Examples? Just a couple? PLZ?
But after 9/11, you can't really tell me that you didn't notice a "systematic pattern" of Bush-worship.
Yes, I can, because whatever was there (and Mark was on it all along) was hardly a pervasive or as deep as it is for Obama. The best you can come up with is: people suggesting that Bush was chosen by God to lead the nation through troubled times (I concede some did, but I once again ask for evidence of a groundswell of such sentiment beyond far-right evangelical Christian televangelists and those who hang on their words); that one could not go to communion if one did not vote for Bush (never, ever did I see this in all of the Catholic media that I follow -- only that one could not vote for Kerry, which is not, as hard as it may be for you to believe, a positive requirement to vote for Bush); a rather imprecise reference to "Bush-is-the-greatest-thing-since-sliced-bread gushing" (I can only surmise you mean some of the enthusiasm he was getting from some neocons, which was not across the board and hardly went without criticism from other conservatives); and a hymn by Ashcroft.
Wow. That's compelling evidence of something that was just as pervasive as what is happening now with Obama's campaign.
And again, the tone of all this Obama criticism is one of tu quoque: "libs" made fun of our guy, now it's our turn.
Undoubtedly, that may be part of it amongst some. Unfortunately for Obama, that does not necessarily make the humor at his expense unwarranted.
There's no sober recognition that a serious mistake might be being made. . .just as Bush worship led to our current torture regime, who knows where Obama worship will lead.
How ironic is this remark, since the very person on whose blog you are making this jab has made such a point repeatedly.
You are content to score cheap political points.
NO U.
With just enough anti-republican mumbling to give you a veneer of "independence".
Whatever -- I'll freely admit that I'm a registered Republican. That doesn't mean that Republicans don't make me want to bang my head against the wall repeatedly -- they just have this effect on me less than the Democrats.
When republicans do this, you don't see a probalem. when democrats do it, you criticize.
It is a problem regardless of who does it. I maintain, however, that the Democrats on the whole have taken it to a fever pitch this year in a way that the Republicans have not. I also believe that there are reasons stemming from the bases of the respective parties of why the Democrats might be more susceptible to this problem than the Republicans. Different constituencies and different poltical theories will manifest tendencies towards different maladies.
And call the whole thing "non-partisan".
Yes, an objective, non-partisan observer should be able to look at Obama's campaign and see that the religious symbolism and appeals have been cropping up at a more frequent clip than for McCain's campaign or even for Dubya in 2004. That this fact plays into partisan hands is something that can be blamed on no one but Obama for opening himself up to that line of attack.
Obama is often compared to JFK. I wasn't even born until the early '70s.
Was there this kind of quasi-religious fervor surrounding JFK back in the early '60s?
This kind of hero worship isn't anything new. What was it Chesterton said? Something like: It isn't that people who reject Christ don't believe in nothing. It's that they'll believe in anything.
I've often experienced this among intellectuals of my parents' generation. They get all whispery and a tone of awe enters their voice when talking about John Lennon. I've always found it a bit creepy, but I suspect the same instinct is very much the same thing behind the current spate of Obama-worship.
The symbolism used by Obama's campaign, the MSM, and his fans, has some sort of religious slant (which is sort of new age humanism), but it mainly reminds me of pictures seen in totalitarian and Marxist regimes, i.e. Mao, Stalin, Lenin, Saddam, Che Guevara, etc.....
This kind of hero worship isn't anything new. What was it Chesterton said? Something like: It isn't that people who reject Christ don't believe in nothing. It's that they'll believe in anything.
I agree with you that it's a great quote, Mark S. but Chesterton never said it. In a paradox he would have appreciated, for a guy who frequently gets criticized for inaccuracies, Chesterton gets misquoted quite a bit.
Anyway, the "When a man stops believiing..." quote is actually cobbled together from quotes in two different Father Brown stories. Go to the link below for the full explaination.
http://chesterton.org/qmeister2/...-
everything.htm
This painting of Obama looks really gay. But then again, I suppose an important part of his fan base is.
I have a suggestion for a McCain painting. They should deck him out in chain mail, riding a white charger (not a unicorn), ala El Cid. Then, they give him a flag on one hand and a mini-gun on the other.
Yeah, Crusader McCain...way different from Bush, hehehe.
A fair warning to those of you who keep yelling that Mr. Shea is politically biased: If you don't stop soon, he's gonna make a post this weekend on how [what he perceives as] your paranoia is [or so he's convinced] an example of how "sin makes you stupid". Whether he'll be correct on that or not, I don't know because I can't know what's actually going on in your heads, but it's what he'll say, just watch. 8^)
And pardon me if your comments were not meant to be yelling... Everything here in the CAEI! combox sounds like yelling to me when these debates break out. I must have a low tolerance level for argument.
I sometimes wonder what would happen if we applied the "if you don't like Obama you worship McCain" to everything else.
You don't like Pepsi. Don't you know that drinking gallons of Coke will give you cavities?
You hate the Yankees? Stupid Red Sox fan.
Don't drive a Chevy? Don't you know Ford makes crappy cars?
You roll toilet paper under rather than over....actually, there's no excuse for doing something that stupid. But I think you get my point.
Was traipsing around my City With All Its Works/Pomps this fine evening.When lo and behold not far from the esteemed Liberty Bell was a gynormous hi-def teevee. Arranged as a makeshift shrine to The Secular Messiah. All the better to gather the faithful to worship. Saw remarkably few faithful at this outdoor temple. May well be this Messiahness has reached its ultimate shelf life. The Gallupers report a 6 percent bump for S.M. over Grumpy Grampa. As Jonah Goldberg noted the kind of man one would expect to regularly yell you kids better get off my lawn. Shoulda been a bigger mid-convention increase-even Al Gore, inventor of the very internet upon which we converse, got a double digit lead after the confab of double 0. Meanwhile a tip of the Iggles cap to my fellow Fulladulfians for eschewing this religious ceremony. Or perhaps more preoccupied with another worship event- last exhibition game pitting the Iggles against the New York Favres. No doubt many donning their best green and silver vestments for that august event.
Actually I think Jesse Jackson's statement
"“What Barack Obama has accomplished is the single most extraordinary event that has occurred in the 232 years of the nation’s political history...The event itself is so extraordinary that another chapter could be added to the Bible to chronicle its significance.” --Rep. Jesse Jackson, Jr."
Is more arrogant about America than anything else. As though what happens in American politics is somehow worthy of being in the Bible.
>>As though what happens in American politics is somehow worthy of being in the Bible.
Tess | 08.29.08 - 2:43 am | # >>
It's not, Tess? You're right! It's not. Your quote wins this debate because the crux if this thread was that the rightwingnutjobs invented this "Obamamessiah", and last time I checked, neither of the Jacksons, the "reverend", nor his son, the congressman, are part of the VRWC.
Great job! Amazing what logic and simple research can do compared to emotions.
A fair warning to those of you who keep yelling that Mr. Shea is politically biased: If you don't stop soon, he's gonna make a post this weekend on how [what he perceives as] your paranoia is [or so he's convinced] an example of how "sin makes you stupid".
Actually he won't because thinking Mark is biased isn't a sin. Formally endorsing torture and making excuses for it and burying it under euphamism for example, IS a sin and thus, it would be entirely approriate to say.
1. I posted these comments as a link on my blog. People can see how foolish you all are. And they can see how racist you all are.
Really? ALL? Many of us may indeed be foolish, and perhaps there is a racist in here somewhere? But ALL? C'mon.
2. Answer this. What are you going to do if and when Obama ends up as President?
Go on living of course. When Obama continues pushing his Culture of Death, many of us will do our best to oppose it. Go look up Planned Parenthood's founder Margaret Sanger and her coziness with the KKK and note that PP facilities are usually in predominately black neighborhoods and ask where the racism really is.
Jeanne, try decaf.
Jeanne,
Seek help. This has nothing to do with your politics -- it has to do with your incoherent rage. Find a good spiritual advisor, talk to a professional counselor -- whatever, just do something before whatever it is that is afflicting you consumes you.
God bless you, Jeanne.
Jeanne - are you saying that Obama is against abortion?
Jeanne - you don't know me at all so your statements mean nothing. You have no idea what my job or financial situation is, so your emotion-ridden statement carries no water.
I have family in South FL, all retirees and one in an assisted living facility, so don't tell me I don't know anything.
I will say this; I trust the CHURCH to help the ones in need any day before the government because the Church does not help with an agenda whereas the government does.
Confederate Papist,
There are times when rational dialog with another person is simply impossible.
I think that this is one of them.
I have backed you into a corner.
Yes, you have us right where we want you.
Is this conversation real, or a put-on?
I am not black, and yes, Congressman Jackson's statement is hyperbole, but it sure seems like to a lot of folks that having a black President does after the historical stain of slavery does have some biblical connotations of deliverance. It is certainly arguable whether that is a false hope, but it is unmistakably genuine and am myself am amazed by the outpouring of that emotion. That does give me some hope, and also hope that other intractable problems, like abortion, can be overcome too.
See Jeanne, you're wrong. This person in A.L. moved to FL of her own free will. She always wanted to live there. She owned a condo and went to daily Mass, was part of many clubs both civil and church related. Unfortunately she has dementia and cannot drive, nor take care of herself anymore and my other relative, who is taking care of her husband, is tending to her affairs. The place she lives in is like a 5 star hotel (I have been there many times), and I hope I get the same fate when my time comes.
I have already told you more about me than you deserve to know, and no where in this thread have I attacked you, so your ad hominum attacks on me and others in this thread need to stop. You are entitled to your opinion about to whom you want to cast your vote for POTUS, but baseless attacks only show hostility not logic.
Vote for Socks the Cat
Jeanne, I live in Florida. I've lived and worked in Florida all my life.
I've spent plenty of time in nursing homes here as a volunteer. My father's been a nurse for 30 years. Both of my Grandparents are in and out of hospitals in the central Florida area. You're not getting off easy telling me I don't know what's going on in my state.
God is watching you too when you pull the lever for Obama, the most ardent supporter of abortion/infanticide in the history of our nation.
Do you REALLY think a lawyer/politician from Chicago actually cares about us and is going to fix.. well.. anything? Really?
In my opinion, by the time an argument has reached the point of one of the arguers simply stating over and over how dumb the people who disagree with them are, then there's little to nothing of value to be gained from it anymore. If Jeanne wants to take out her anger at "soooo rational" pro-lifers in Mark's combox, then I say just leave her alone and let her do so. She's obviously not interested in having an actual rational argument...
Jeanne Stark, notorious troll. She was banned from the ovusoft.com forums after making death threats (repeatedly) against other members and their children. Lest people think that I am slandering, I can provide proof if requested.
BTW, Jeanne, I didn't vote for Bush in the last election. So you're wrong there. I'd be happy to vote for Obama if he didn't support infanticide, but since he does, he won't get my vote. It has nothing to do with his skin color.
I agree with you that it's a great quote, Mark S. but Chesterton never said it.
Thanks for the correction, Mr. Dailey! Very interesting.
Anyone here watch LOST on ABC? Certain bits of this conversation remind me of something a character on that show once said:
"Crazy people don't know they're going crazy. They think they're getting saner."
Palin for Vice President
Yep.
"God is watching you too when you pull the lever for Obama, the most ardent supporter of abortion/infanticide in the history of our nation."
This strikes me as the wrong thing to say. A person's relationship with God is private, privileged and inaccessible to any other human being, and no other human being is competent to intervene or comment. Opinions about this personal relationship with God should be given only when asked for, and probably by a spiritual counselor or confessor.
Neither you nor I speak for God.
Abortion is homicide. Whom God watches is another matter entirely. Everyone, presumably.
Pavel,
I did not intend to speak for God, and yes, although there are times I'd love to hide from Him, He watches us all and always. My statement was turning Jeanne's (now deleted) statement back around on her. I'd reproduce it here, but it's no longer available.
Pax
Here's my own commentary on the issue - Sparrow's Egg:
http://www.catholicradiointernat...l.com/
pavel.php
She (Jeanne) must have really gotten nasty if she was expunged from the combox.
I will pray for her at Adoration 1am EDT.
Thanks for the correction, Mr. Dailey! Very interesting.
You're welcome! 
Wow, McCain picks Palin!!!! Awesome choice!!! Game.Set.Match.
Goodbye, Obama.
He'll draw in plenty of Hillary voters and might even convince guys like Emperor Sheavius to pull the lever for McCain.
Palin is the most inspired choice since . . . Admiral Stockdale.
He'll draw in plenty of Hillary voters...
Maybe, maybe not. I've already seen Hillary supporters complaining that he chose a woman for purely political reasons, and thus they won't vote for him -- or her (well, of course he picked her for political reasons -- who doesn't make a selection of a veep with political reasons in mind?). Anyway, I think that the more dyed-in-the-wool Democrats who were still fuming over Hillary's loss are not so set on electing a member of their own sex that they will overlook such sacred cows of the feminist agenda as the sacrality of abortion.
Hey, The Bear -- don't let that jerking knee hit you too hard when commenting about Palin.
Check this forum out....of course, the site might be part of the great right wing conspiracy...I'm not sure.
http://www.hillaryclintonforum.n...ead.php?
t=26089
it's called a joke . . . this is clearly a nod to the Huckabee crowd to keep them in the "R" column. But to claim that this will sway any democratic voters because she is a woman is a fallacy.
Bear,
Read the Dave's link. More than a few seem to be leaving. Not a fallacy.
I did, and if you did too, you would see the writing is about third-grade level. Not exactly convincing. And if someone would consider changing their presidential vote merely because they were a woman, I doubt that they were ever really in the "D" column anyway.
Once again, The Bear, it really depends on the extent to which the woman who voted for a Hillary because she is a woman are also members of the Democratic or pro-abortion feminist faithful. Those with the strongest ties to either of these are least likely to cross party or ideological lines even to vote for someone with ovaries and mammary glands. Women who do not have strong loyalties to the Democrats or pro-abortion feminism, however, but who voted for Hillary primarily for the historic significance of electing another woman to the presidency may very well be swayed by this choice. The selection of Palin puts these primary voters in play.
Yeah, I'm certainly not claiming that Palin will pull off a large percentage of Hillary voters, and certainly not those who are passionate about Dem core issues. But the thing is, she doesn't have to. If even 5 percent of them shift to McCain/Palin instead, that's nearly a million voters. If 10 percent of them shift, it's nearly two million and it's probably game over for Obama.
Secondly, this pick energizes the GOP base and ensures a good turnout. Overall, it's a very good day for McCain, and I'd say his odds of winning have gone up about 20%.
I agree with Dave. More importantly, Palin will energize the base to get out and vote -- this is essential since everyone expects record turnout among Dems. Furthermore, she will make it impossible for Biden to get away with his famous "charming bully" debating tactics. Great choice.
we're all friends here, you can just call me Bear. It doesn't hurt that she was a former beauty queen. http://wonkette.com/219635/gilf-...as-miss-
wasilla
a pro-lifer from an oil state who may have more beauty than brains . . . sounds like a formula I may have heard before.
She's a strong pro-lifer with a Downs baby; and her son is either getting ready to deploy, or already is deployed to the Middle East (Iraq, I think)....
I read abour her a few months ago, I think it was mainly because she was a mother/governor with a newborn that has Downs. I don't think veep talk was in the article, but I've slept since then.
A good choice for McCain, maybe she can help keep him in line....
The official announcement of my running mate is here at the bottom of about a hundred ten comments on Mark's blog:
It is Meadowlark Lemon.
(P.S. anybody got an address or phone number for Lemon so I can let him know?)
Yep, brilliant move for McCain. It shows he isn't a dumb, and it has taken the wind out of Obama's sails when the wind was needed.
"a pro-lifer from an oil state who may have more beauty than brains . . . sounds like a formula I may have heard before."
It also sounds like you are casting aspersions ("may have more beauty than brains") upon a person on the basis of one spurious similarity ("from an oil state") with someone else.
Palin seems like a neat lady, but I'm not sure how good of a choice this will be for McCain. Consider:
1.) He is continually (and rightly) attacking Obama's lack of experience. But his VP choice is a first term governor? Huh?
2.) When looking at a VP, voters always think, "This person could be President." Given McCain's age and health issues, this is going to be VERY MUCH in the minds of many voters this election, and I don't know how many people are going to be comfortable seeing Palin as POTUS.
3.) She isn't bringing many electoral votes to the table.
Like I said, she seems like a neat lady. Very admirable woman, even if I disagree with some of her views. But I'm not sure how smart of a choice this was for VP.
No, it is quite brilliant. McCain is the candidate for president. She is veep. If the Democrats go after her lack of experience, then it is they - they - who are raising the issue that lack of experience is important. And all the Republicans have to do is remind everyone that the Democrats, whose candidate has barely more experience, will be the president, not just one hearbeat away.
She isn't bringing the electoral votes, but she is the only Washington outsider in the race at this point. She is strong pro-life, maverick, and Christian, and that will help bring some of the voters back to McCain from the religious right. And she is a woman, so she took the 'let's make history' air from Obama's sails. Probably one of McCain's better choices thus far.
I don't think I'll have many reservations voting Republican this November, now. It's very uncharitable of me to say so, but this pick almost makes me wish McCain was a little older or a little sicker. A President Palin is just what this country needs!
Anyway, I'm loving this... my base is thoroughly energized.
Just watch Joe Biden try to pay the "rags to riches" card now (she's married to a fisherman!)! And finally maybe Obama will finally shut up about how hard it is raising two daughters with the evil threat of punishment by baby roaming the land -- Palin's got three daughters!
And it will be very amusing to hear the Insiders whine "But she's not one of ussssssssssssss....." (as they're already doing, cf. the New York Times article).
Such such a pro-life, pro-family nominee finally on the ticket, I really don't think any Catholic can in good conscience, allow an Obama presidency to occur either through direct action or inaction.
1.) He is continually (and rightly) attacking Obama's lack of experience. But his VP choice is a first term governor? Huh?
What Dave G. said. Also, I suspect that there are women out there her will be none too pleased about a man criticizing a woman as not being qualified for a number 2 job when he is seeking the number 1 job even though he has less executive experience than her.
2.) When looking at a VP, voters always think, "This person could be President." Given McCain's age and health issues, this is going to be VERY MUCH in the minds of many voters this election, and I don't know how many people are going to be comfortable seeing Palin as POTUS.
This is related to issue #1. If a person looks at Palin's lack of experience and worries about her becoming president if McCain becomes incapacitated or dies, then that person would presumably be just as or more concerned about Obama's inexperience since it only takes an election to make him president and not some unexpected sidelining of his running mate as well.
3.) She isn't bringing many electoral votes to the table.
It doesn't matter -- my understanding is that historically veeps have not done a consistent job of delivering electoral votes, so picking one on that basis is a bit foolish.
Huh? Palin has MORE experience than Obama. She's a governor of a state (Obama has never been in charge of anything) and before that, was mayor of a town (again, Obama has never been in charge of anything)
She spent her two years as governor governing the state of Alaska. Obama spent half of his 4 years in the Senate running for President, and was not even in charge of any Senate committees.
More importantly than experience, though, she has the CHARACTER I want in a leader!!
if by casting aspersions you mean comparing her to Bush, abso-frickin'-lutely.
if by casting aspersions you mean comparing her to Bush
Right.
And all the points about Obama, Biden, McCain, and Palin aside, that is what 90% of this election is about: Continuing the Bush ways or changing direction. Most of the country wants a change in direction. McCain isn't doing enough to distance himself from the policies of Bush, and that, I fear, is going to be his ultimate undoing.
I don't like the thought of an Obama Presidency, but every day it's looking more and more like what we're going to get. Bad Batman analogies aside. 
Cheney delivered Wyoming, right?
Will Biden deliver Deleware, a slave state, in his own words?
VP electoral votes, as stated above, don't mean a lot. Getting the message out does.
How is Palin a maverick?
She took on the old guard, both gop and dem....cut spending, etc. Not very characteristic for a pol these days...even on a local level....
I suspect that there are women out there her[sic] will be none too pleased about a man criticizing a woman as not being qualified for a number 2 job when he is seeking the number 1 job even though he has less executive experience than her.
BINGO!
I know who I'll be voting for in November.
Mark S. - you need to read about Palin more, obviously. She is exactly the kind of politician I am excited about, and the kind I haven't seen in quite a long time!!
Right, and your entire basis for this comparison is that she is from an oil state and she is pro-life. You could have based your comparison on the facts that she is a bipedal mammal, and it would have had about as much force (which is say, approximately none whatsoever).
Anyway, returning to the long-forgotten subject of the painting that started this thread, I found out that the artist is Lukas Ketner of Portland, OR. The name of the file of this pic on his blog is "Baracksploitation," and it was apparently the cover for a summer issue of Willamette Week -- allegedly the largest alternative weekly in Portland. The only comment that the artist gave on his blog was "Portland is in love with Barack Obama, all harlequin romance style."
How is Palin a maverick?
She has established a reputation of going after and taking down members of her own party on matters of ethics and policy.
this is baloney. McCain has always been clearly divergent from Bush, and this was pretty clear in the 2000 Primaries. As soon as he procured the 2008 GOP nomination, though, he was cast by the Dems as Bush 2.0.
Hopefully, at least some people can see through this. Now trying to say that Palin is similar to Bush is just extremely laughable.
Of course, the Dems have to keep repeating that mantra, cuz it's all they've got.
She took on the old guard, both gop and dem....cut spending, etc.
Maybe your definition of "maverick" differs than mine.
A maverick is someone who bends the rules and isn't afraid to go against what is expected of him (or her). Someone who, in fact, LIKES going against expectations.
Mark S. - you need to read about Palin more, obviously.
Yep. Admittedly. Until her name hit the news today, I'd never heard of her. What little I've learned in the last two hours makes me think she's a very strong, intelligent woman, with whom I disagree on some things.
So how is she a maverick?
Strong pro-lifer? Good. What else?
Hi Mark S.
It's difficult to see how ANYONE could be a Maverick-politician under your criteria, since meeting that criteria would seem to preclude getting elected...?
Strong pro-lifer, made good on her campaign promise of selling the state jet within three days of taking office, killed the bridge to nowhere (which her State Republican leadership were pushing), eats mooseburger, worked in an Alaskan fish plant, AND I'm fairly certain she could beat Barak Obama 1-on-1 in basketball.
please realize that this is a choice straight out of Rove's playbook, i.e., keep the pro-lifers in your corner while assuring the money and military industrial complex guys with a wink and and a nod that "bomb bomb bomb Iran" McCain is really in their corner. She may even be a "neat lady," just like Bush may have been a good guy to have a beer with, but you need to get a little more cynical. This is the same thing voters fell for in 2000 and 2004 with Bush.
Well, she is actually there to serve on behalf of the people. That alone separates her from 99% of politicians, as far as I can tell.
She turned down a big pork barrel project that Senator Ted Stevens gained...remember the "Bridge to Nowhere"? Her whole career in politics has basically been on an anti-corruption platform, and she's done a TON to clean up the GOP in Alaska, bringing down most of the GOP establishment in her wake.
Mark S. (not for Shea) - I was just going say the going against the old guard is a maverick as opposed to the same old, same old...but victor's line is much better..
Hello, The Bear: we're stoked because as pro-life, pro-family Catholics, this is probably the BEST POSSIBLE CHOICE McCain could have made.
Also, it's evidence that prayer works. Perhaps there really is hope for the soul of our nation.
McCain has always been clearly divergent from Bush, and this was pretty clear in the 2000 Primaries.
It was true of McCain 2000. I'm still a little aghast that the GOP nominated Bush in 2000 over McCain. He was a far stronger candidate.
It has been remarkably less true of McCain over the past 4 years. It's pretty clear after being defeated in 2000, he set his sights on 2008 right away, and he's been mostly playing nice with the Party ever since.
If he had continued being maverick McCain, he might have stood a better chance in winning the general election. But now, barring a really major foul-up from Obama/Biden (and never underestimate the Democrats' talent for snatching defeat from the jaws of victor) I'm afraid it's going to be too little too late.
The country is in a mess because of eight years of Bush/Cheney, and most Americans agree on this. They don't want more of the same, and McCain isn't doing enough to distance himself from the mistakes of the past 8 years.
Anyone who tells me Obama isn't great Presidential material will get no argument from me. But anyone who says that continuing the same failed policies of the past 8 years is a good idea ... put down the crack pipe.
Yeah, I'm still ambivalent towards McCain, but (at the risk of getting way ahead of myself) if his election sets us up for a President Palin in 2012 or 2016... at this precise moment in time, it's hard to see a better outcome for our country coming from any of the other the possible choices before us.
Bear, old friend. Cynicism is good when it comes to politics, but when dealt with this hand, you have to play....you have to look at this objectively. You may be surprised how much in common you and I have in regards to politics...
please realize that this is a choice straight out of Rove's playbook, i.e., keep the pro-lifers in your corner while assuring the money and military industrial complex guys with a wink and and a nod that "bomb bomb bomb Iran" McCain is really in their corner.
I fear a lot of truth to this.
Palin is stridently pro-life. Good! I applaud her.
But she isn't running for POTUS. McCain is.
But she isn't running for POTUS. McCain is.
And McCain is old and could -- dare to dream -- "pass on" within the first 80 days of office.
Being realistic about the fact that she may very well not live up to expectations and being cynical by assuming that she is a Bush clone on the flimsiest of evidence such as what you have proposed are not the same, The Bear.
Also, will you and your comrades please, please, please quit invoking Rove's name every freakin' time the Dems get out-maneuvered? Good grief, Clinton and the Democrats were writing the playbook on shrewd politicking before Rove hit the national scene. You folks repeat Rove like a mantra as though he were some sort of supernatural force of which you are both in awe and fear. The Dems come up with a clever strategy, and they are just running a good campaign; but if the GOP comes up with a clever strategy -- oh, it must be that all-powerful, all-knowing, evil Karl Rove!
Give it a rest.
It's difficult to see how ANYONE could be a Maverick-politician under your criteria, since meeting that criteria would seem to preclude getting elected...?
Teddy Roosevelt? Man, has it been that long since we had a true maverick for President?
At this point, I don't really want a maverick. I want an honest person of conscience and morality. Someone who isn't going to get us out of Iraq, but allow infanticide. Or someone who isn't going to favor outlawing abortion while engaging the country in unnecessary bloodshed, trampling the Bill of Rights, and allowing torture.
McCain is old and could -- dare to dream -- "pass on" within the first 80 days of office.
Are you really suggesting we vote for someone in hopes that they soon die in office? 
Also, it's evidence that prayer works. Perhaps there really is hope for the soul of our nation.
Careful there, Victor -- what is good for the goose is good for the gander. In this case, I will say that Palin is possibly the best for which one can reasonably hope under these circumstances, but I would be careful about attributing any divine significance to this selection for the same reasons I am wary of Democrats doing so for their candidate.
I think it's more like McCain woke up and smelled the coffee...this is a center-right country despite what Madison Ave and the MSM believe...
Palin as President of the Senate with the tie-breaking vote is music to my ears!
ronny: huh?
CP: I am sure we do.
Anyway, I will sure have more fun watching a debate with her than Cheney.
off to a wedding weekend. have a good weekend.
ronny: huh?
This thread was prompted by Obamamaniacal muddle-headedness in too readily importing religious significance to the Democrat's chosen one. I am saying that, even though Palin appears to be a better candidate than Obama in the balance of issues about which religiously minded voters are concerned, supporters of her should careful about falling into the same error.
Off to a HS football game. My daughter is in the Color Guard with the band, so I have to go be dad..
Y'all have a good and safe weekend!!
Also, it's evidence that prayer works. Perhaps there really is hope for the soul of our nation.
Careful there, Victor -- what is good for the goose is good for the gander. In this case, I will say that Palin is possibly the best for which one can reasonably hope under these circumstances, but I would be careful about attributing any divine significance to this selection for the same reasons I am wary of Democrats doing so for their candidate.
True, true. The difference here is that I'm possibly attributing a possible VP pick to (at least in some part) the intercession of the Holy Spirit. What you hear from the Obamaphiles isn't that his nomination is the result of divine workings, but that HE is the one working in mysterious ways.
This is a sickening image: putting a WHITE horse in the background??? I guess I shouldn't be amazed at the levels McSame's supporters will stoop to to send coded messages to their KKK base.
+J.M.J+
>>>a pro-lifer from an oil state who may have more beauty than brains
I heard her speech earlier, and I beg to differ. She comes across as quite intelligent.
>>>She's a strong pro-lifer with a Downs baby
This is one thing I really like about her. At a time when 90% of all Downs babies are killed in the womb, we need a prominent woman in the public eye who didn't make that horrible "choice." She can be an example to other women who find themselves in her position.
>>>He is continually (and rightly) attacking Obama's lack of experience. But his VP choice is a first term governor? Huh?
She served as a mayor prior to that. All in all, she has more executive experience than Obama.
>>>She isn't bringing many electoral votes to the table.
How many is Biden bringing?
>>>Most of the country wants a change in direction. McCain isn't doing enough to distance himself from the policies of Bush, and that, I fear, is going to be his ultimate undoing.
Well, Palin did go up against the corruption in the Republican Party in Alaska. She also opposes porkbarrel spending (she cancelled the "bridge to nowhere" project) which is business-as-usual in Washington.
Don't know whether they'll win, but IMHO she was the best choice McCain could have made. Remember the rumors that he'd pick a pro-abort? Thank God he chose a prolife woman with five kids, one of them a special-needs child. God bless her for that!
In Jesu et Maria,
She is a maverick in that she has bucked the GOP at times. She went after GOP leadership that she felt was doing a bad job. She challenged waist and has opened up to left leaning politicians to build coalitions. She also has tried to accommodate homosexual rights without compromising on marriage - something which should be OK for Catholics, since the Church says it's wrong to discriminate against gays, but there can't be gay marriage. So she isn't a 'the party speaks, obey' type. In that she isn't an independent, no, she wouldn't be a maverick if that were the definition. But as a person who is part of the party, she had a reputation of bucking the system. I was also aware of her, and chuckle at the media's insistence that 'nobody' has heard of her. Probably not as many as Biden, but I'll bet for folks who don't live and breath politics, he was only slightly better known.
"It's very uncharitable of me to say so, but this pick almost makes me wish McCain was a little older or a little sicker. A President Palin is just what this country needs!" victor
I had hopes he'd pick Palin and I'm pleased, but I don't think she's ready to be President just yet. She does need more foreign-policy and lower-48 experience. I don't think McCain's going to die in the next two or three years though so I'm not worried about this.
I do like her story. She's very popular with Alaskans and seems to do well by them. I'm glad that he did pick a Pro-Lifer with a Pro-Life story whether that's Rovian or not. However I do think she should be seen as the running-mate and it's a bit gruesome to wait for McCain to die so she can step in.
By the way, a person who has been part of a business with thousands of employees doesn't have the experience of a business owner who owns a business with a hundred employees. Being a leader is being a leader. You've either done it, or you haven't. Biden and McCain have been around long enough to have gotten out around this from merely being in the Senate, and McCain was in the military and would know a little about leadership. Obama has never - ever - served in an executive/leadership position. This will come back at him if he and his supporters go after her experience (as they've begun to do).
If you wanted a qualified pro-life candidate what was wrong with Sam Brownback?
She's a pro-life candidate, but this is not a soap opera about a race for the presidency.
Do you want Sarah Palin staring into the eyeballs of V. V. Putin while holding ten thousand nuclear weapons under her thumb? Are you daft?
I'm going to have to search for my comment a couple of weeks ago to the effect that we need a REAL pro-life woman in the White House. A Veep will do nicely. At the time I commented, I noted that the wives of pro-life Pres's undercut them....
Pavel,
That strikes me as somewhat sexist. I had no problem with Margaret Thatcher, and I'd have no problem with Sarah Palin. She's tough as nails, but with a great heart too.
personally, I'd feel much more comfortable with Palin staring down Putin than with Obama....but then again, it's McCain, not Palin who'll be doing the staring.
+J.M.J+
>>>If you wanted a qualified pro-life candidate what was wrong with Sam Brownback?
With all due respect to Brownback, did he ever give birth to a Down's Syndrome baby? Gov. Palin has been there. It's not just a hypothetical political position for her; she's a living, breathing example of the prolife cause. Whether or not the McCain/Palin ticket wins, I'm glad she's in the "public eye" nationwide for that reason alone.
In Jesu et Maria,
"That strikes me as somewhat sexist."
Your problem. Even Dr. Rice would have been a reasonable choice in comparison.
The VP is a back-up. This was not a good choice.
"I'd feel much more comfortable with Palin staring down Putin than with Obama."
You have no idea. Once again, I will not vote for Obama, but this was a very unfortunate decision.
"With all due respect to Brownback, did he ever give birth to a Down's Syndrome baby?"
For God's sake.
Pavel,
Please explain exactly why Obama is a better choice to "stare down Putin" than Palin...
Because he's a man? I can't think of any other reason.
"Please explain exactly why Obama is a better choice to "stare down Putin" than Palin..."
I didn't say either one was a proper choice.
Did you read where I said I'm not voting for Obama?
I don't think anyone is going to 'stare down Putin.'
My phrase was about looking into his eyeballs.
1. Praised be Christ forever. The wildest most mindbending prez election in our lives got wilder and more mindmushing today. With the selection of Sarah Palin this morn, Sen. McCain takes the old political paradigm and smashes it like the glass ceiling noted by La Hillary this week. Ms. Palin is so far away and beyond any traditional mold that the item may not exist. Would have been pleased if yuk Tom Ridge or yawn Joe Lieberman were put on the ticket. But Ms. Palin.....
2. Who can fish. Fire a shootin iron. Drive kids to hockey practice. Raised up five younguns, including a patriotic young man who volunteered for the U.S. of A. Army. Read TelePrompters as teevee sportscaster. Bucked the corrupt Alaskan GOP network to win her current job. And looks pretty snappy may I say. Quite a life packed into 44 years. So what have you done with yours, Sen. Clinton?
3. If Tsar Vladimir The Terrible forced Dollar Store Messiah Obama to select Jabberin Joe Biden, it was the fine congregation at the Saddleback Church who forced Sen. McCain's hand in selecting Ms. Palin. At that church's presidential meet & greet, McC clearly saw the impact of a. playing to the base and b. find somebody who fits their standards. Gov. Palin is feminist to the 10th power. We will see if Lockstep Fems will move beyond their own paradigms- the right schools/connections/internships/etc.- to select a no-kidding assertive woman who has done all that a man can do. And more.
4. The lib mouthpieces are sufficiently freaked out.The Rocky Mountain High of the Denver confab is so much confetti trampled under foot. Surprising that the powers what be at Obama HQ did not factor her possible choice- hoping for bland moderate pro-choice guys from the right schools/internships/etc.
5. Praised be the Divine Jokester. He may have set up the environment in which the most influential person of the '08 election could be a baby with Down's Syndrome. With the selection of his mama as the possible One Step to The White House person, Trig Palin may save more lives than he- or we- may ever know. Already rumblings- including ignoramous pap from CNN talking head John Roberts- that the mom of one of these special kids must stay home. And bake cookies, no doubt, John? Trig's mom can fish/shoot/raise 4 sibs/balance a state budget. Clearly the greatest day for the pro-life movement since 1/22/73. With postitive vibes for eons to come.
Ahhhh....nice to see you back, Gerard E.....please don't go away again!
Your take is always entertaining and informative.
OK, Pavel, fair enough...but I think you are underestimating Ms. Palin.
Do you want Sarah Palin staring into the eyeballs of V. V. Putin while holding ten thousand nuclear weapons under her thumb? Are you daft?
I don't see anyone doing that. But you might be surprised. It was a smart political choice. And you don't know. History is full of surprises. I would be curious to know exactly why you think she is a poor choice. Obviously not because she is a woman. So why?
"History is full of surprises."
Most of them were highly unpleasant. We can do without surprises, thank you.
"I would be curious to know exactly why you think she is a poor choice."
Exactly? Nothing about this situation is exact enough for anyone to be precise.
Someone with national and/or international experience and cachet, with pro-life credentials, like Brownback, would have made sense to me. The next four years are going to be extremely dangerous and difficult. Anyone can preside over the Senate, but the Vice President is the back-up for the most powerful executive in history.
I think the choice is at best highly risky.
Pavel,
I would just like to mention that only 4 POTUS have died of natural causes while POTUS. That's 80% that lived, 91% that lived or were shot dead.
Palin most likely won't be POTUS between now and 2013.
Pick Your Side:
Roe v. Wade makes campaign comeback
Democrats warn women that high court — and abortion rights — is at stake
DENVER - The refrain in many of the Democratic leaders’ responses to Sen. John McCain’s choice of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin as his running mate: Roe v. Wade, Roe v. Wade.
The 1973 Supreme Court decision nationalizing a woman’s right to get an abortion was a top-of-mind issue for top Democrats.
Voters, beware, the Democrats' message seemed to be: Palin is not in favor of abortion rights.
The Democrats seemed to be concerned that some voters might be under the misapprehension that Palin was a pro-choice woman — or that because she is a woman, it might help McCain get the votes of pro-choice women.
The message echoed and re-echoed:
“Gov. Palin shares John McCain's commitment to overturning Roe v. Wade,” said Obama spokesman Bill Burton in a statement issued before McCain had stepped out on the stage in Dayton, Ohio, with Palin.
“She shares John McCain’s commitment to overturning Roe v. Wade,” agreed House Speaker Nancy Pelosi two hours later.
“Gov. Palin and John McCain are a good match because they both want to overturn Roe v. Wade,” chimed in Ellen Malcolm, a Hillary Clinton adviser and president of the Democratic group Emily’s List, which backs women abortion rights candidates.
“The last thing women need is a president — and vice president — who are prepared to turn back the clock on women's rights and repeal the protections of Roe v. Wade,” said Cecile Richards, the president of the Planned Parenthood Action Fund, which backs mostly Democratic candidates.
If McCain were to win the election but not serve out his term, it would be Palin nominating justices for any Supreme Court vacancies.
Trusting Christ is Risk.
Believig John when he says "this man" reflected his humanity, just as John believed another John about that man being the Lamb of God, is a risk.
Life is fraught with risks.
What Christian man shies away from the risk?
>>>He is continually (and rightly) attacking Obama's lack of experience. But his VP choice is a first term governor? Huh?
She served as a mayor prior to that. All in all, she has more executive experience than Obama.
Of course. But the point being that McCain can no longer criticize Obama for that with a straight face.
Why can't McCain criticize Obama's lack of experience? Both McCain and Palin have more experience than Obama.
One of the things I didn't like about this election is that neither candidate has any executive experience. As Governor of Alaska Palin brings executive experience to the table. She has been serving in politics since 1992.
If Obama thinks he represents change in that he's fresh and a Washington outsider, then meet Sarah Palin - also a Washington outsider who really has brought about change in an executive leadership role.
I'd love to see them debating experience!
Actually, McCain can do just that. He can say the Democrats have made it clear that someone with her resume or Obama's resume is quite capable of being president. Her resume is barely any different than Obama's. A little more here, less there. If the Democrats cry foul, then he can simply point out that it is the Democrats who are insisting that experience does matter - something the Obama camp has tried to minimize. Either way, it's safe in terms of the politics of getting elected. If the Democrats keep bringing up experience, it's their own grave they will be digging. Now if experience actually does matter is a whole different ball game. But since the Democrats have tried to eliminate that issue, they can't be the ones to bring it up now.
"If you wanted a qualified pro-life candidate what was wrong with Sam Brownback?"
He ran and got no energy. In a way he's been tested, but the voters found him very much wanting. He's also, to be blunt, a white guy.
Also let's not beat on Pavel. What he brings up are serious and real issues. The pick of Palin is risky. I'm excited by it, but the rational part of my mind urges caution. All that said I think as the running-mate she does not have to be as qualified in foreign policy as the candidate. She's in the mould of "President in training" rather than "President in waiting." Some find this arrogant because they feel McCain really should be thinking about his mortality. The idea is he has no time to train anyone because he'll be dead very soon. However the idea he'll be dead very soon is pure speculation.
I'm happy with her as a VP pick, but Pavel's concerns about her as a President do have validity and can't be dismissed in a glib way.
The pick had to be risky. Likewise, everyone is aware of her risk value. It's always a risk, because who could imagine what some candidates could do. I was no fan of George Bush in 2000, but he has gone places I never would have guessed in 2000. Likewise, who would have thought one of our most effective presidents in the last 60 years would be an ex-B-movie actor from the 1940s? It's always worth taking a second look at things, but right now, I'm happy with the pick. And in the world of political chess, it was a brilliant move against the Obama/media juggernaut.
think Gideon's Army
From Vox Nova blog:
First: I have known Sarah Palin for years. How? I met her through AK Right to Life. She always came to our fund-raising dinners, she always came to pro-life events (even when she took time off from politics to be home with her children), and one of her kids became AK RTL’s baby mascot for our stationery. She is the real deal when it comes to pro-life matters. This became even more clear when at the age of 44 of this year, she gave birth to a baby with Down’s Syndrome. BTW: No one knew she was pregnant until 1 month before giving birth!
Second: She worked under previous (Catholic-pro-life) Governor Frank Murkowski’s Admin and ended up resigning because the corruption was so blatant and so bad she could not effect change. She gave up her 6 figure income to do so. This catapulted her into stardom for Alaskans.
Third: When she ran for Governor, she was up against the incumbent Murkowski (the least popular Governor in the nation at the time) AND against two-time former super popula,r Governor Democrat Tony Knowles. Husband and I both had deep respect for her so we decided to join her campaign. We were not the only ones. I have worked many a campaign before and this was the first time in my experience where normal, average, non-partisan types joined the campaign. When I decided to wave signs for her on street corners (with my baby strapped on my back), I was blown away by the hundreds of other Alaskans who had the same idea.
Fourth: When she ran for Governor, the AK Republican Party threw fundraisers for Palin’s Democratic rival! No joke! They hated her because she was the one who blew the whistle on their corruption. Big Oil hates her because she refused and refuses to be bribed. She had very little campaign money and her very few tv ads always said “Frugally paid for by the Palin Campaign.” Yet, she won, sweeping the State.
Fifth: I worked the polls on voting day and Democrats, Independents and non-voters alike came to vote for her.
My advice: Don’t underestimate her, my friends.
The folks who think Palin is an experienced lightweight are ill-informed, but no matter, they'll figure it out eventually.
But it does amuse me that so many people have such strong views unencumbered by facts.
"But it does amuse me that so many people have such strong views unencumbered by facts."
As you look down in amusement from your great height, Mike, please try not to be too hard on the ignorant.
Pavel,
Why do you assume Putin is so strong and capable? Russia has had multiple leaders who've all talked very tough ("We will bury you!") and have amounted to nothing.
"Why do you assume Putin is so strong and capable?"
Do you assume that he's not? If so on what basis?
I assume him to be the blowhard that all Russian presidents and premiers have been over the last 60 years. All talk and bluster.
Whether the leader of Russia is Vladimir Putin or Yosemite Sam, it doesn't change the fact that Russia is sitting on a huge nuclear arsenal. Add to that a volatile economy, rampant government corruption, and close ties with such US-huggy-friendly states as China and Iran, and you have a country that you had damned well be well-prepared to deal with.
[With] h such a pro-life, pro-family nominee finally on the ticket, I really don't think any Catholic can in good conscience, allow an Obama presidency to occur either through direct action or inaction.
Amen!!!!!!
(emphasis added...he who has ears to hear, let him hear.)
The U.S.S.R. has been friendly with China and Iran for years. I'm not saying we should ignore the cat, just that we oughtn't be afraid of him either.
Such such a pro-life, pro-family nominee finally on the ticket, I really don't think any Catholic can in good conscience, allow an Obama presidency to occur either through direct action or inaction.
Because this election is about a lot more than abortion, and one strongly pro-life VP hardly decides the abortion issue. She her ticket win, her boss hardly represents a strong proponent for the Culture of Life.
Many Catholics of good conscience concerned about issues beyond abortion.
Does that excuse voting for Obama?
Of course not. But don't expect us to jump up and down with joy at this VP nomination. As much as I applaud Palin's pro-life stance, I disagree with her on some other things, and I disagree with her woudl-be boss on a whole lot of things.
I'm still with Mr. Shea on this, voting third party. Or if I'm feeling naughty, I might write-in Mr. T.
"Should her ticket win..." not "She her..." Typing too fast = typos.
Sure wish Haloscan had an Edit feature.
"The U.S.S.R. has been"
That should read 'had been' obviously.
Well I'm letting go of my nose so I can take in the sweet smell of Palin, the air fresher that makes voting for MCcain possible.
I'm proud of em both.
>With] h such a pro-life, pro-family nominee finally on the ticket, I really don't think any Catholic can in good conscience, allow an Obama presidency to occur either through direct action or inaction.
I reply: Wouldn't go that far. Who to vote for is based on a person's prudent judgments.
But I do think it is CLEARLY more reasonable to vote for MCcain these days.
"With such a pro-life, pro-family nominee finally on the ticket, I really don't think any Catholic can in good conscience, allow an Obama presidency to occur either through direct action or inaction."
This is overstating it. I do hope that the host is more respectful now to those voting for McCain and that he won't think we're just stupid or fools. I wouldn't bank on that, but that'd be enough for me.
"Whether the leader of Russia is Vladimir Putin or Yosemite Sam, it doesn't change the fact that Russia is sitting on a huge nuclear arsenal." MSn4Sh
I agree. The leader of Russia is important no matter who it is. It could even be argued that if the leader of Russia is an pompous blowhard this makes knowing how to deal with him more important not less.
"You also have no authority to tell or even imply that if you do not vote Republican you are not going to heaven. That is what many of you believe. It is a sick way to look at the faith." Scott Stark
I'm not sure who you're aiming this at, but I agree that that's a terrible thing to say about you or your wife. I'm more about saying it's okay to vote Republican in this case, not that it's mandatory.
People who said that kind of stuff to you, what I quoted, are being jackasses.
Yeah, but not a soul said anything remotely like that. She showed ranting about all sorts of imagined faults and slights, and people responded pretty charitably.
She sounds like she is under a huge amount of stress right now, quite apart from her brief appearance on this blog. As her husband, you might consider seeking whatever help is appropriate for her current state.
+J.M.J+
Wow, now some liberals are actually questioning Gov. Palin's "judgment" in choosing to let her special child live:
http://www.alan.com/2008/08/31/i...udgment-stupid/
So I guess choosing to slaughter the poor babe before he got to see the light of day would have been exercizing "good judgment" in their book? As the mother of two autistic children, all I can say is... How. Evil. Just. Evil.
In Jesu et Maria,
"Wow, now some liberals are actually questioning Gov. Palin's "judgment" in choosing to let her special child live" RM
TR: I experienced this on a science fiction board. I told the guy I had a genetic condition and my Mom was 34 when I was born. He didn't back down on it though.
In fairness to liberals I think this approach will mostly be rejected by them. The guy who said those things at the SF forum was pretty much booed by a Pro-Choice woman who worked at an abortion clinic and a French atheist.
You never know what's on the menu here.
I don't always agree with Pavel, but I always feel a little uncomfortable when I don't. In the case of Putin, we do not have a Party apparatchik who survived the game of musical chairs in the Central Committee of the CPSU. Putin was KGB, which did not promote fools very often. Putin's KGB career started in the First Directorate, which dealt with internal dissenters. He is about as warm and cuddly as a spitting cobra, and much harder to read emotionally.
the right wing who actually are the better of two evils
Because that's just flat-out not true.
There is no such thing as a "better evil." Evil is evil.
The GOP's evils may be different than the Dems evils, but evil is evil. You rightly affirm the Dems' adherence to certain evils, but that doesn't make the GOP good by comparison.
I'm not claiming for a moment that a Christian of good conscience cannot vote GOP. But I'm not claiming a Christian of good conscience cannot vote Democrat or Green or whatever.
The GOP is NOT the party of the angels.
Oh give me a break both of you. Neither's position is evil in some cosmic way. Sheesh. There's reasons to pick the least bad option and there's reasons to opt out. If you're just going to sling "evil" at each other I can't imagine this will be a productive conversation.
Anyway to get back to the original topic of Obama-mania here's Andrew Sullivan on Obama's speech.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlanti...ope-we-
con.html
A rousing ending about "remarkable man", and telling America what it "must not" do.
Oops I see Frank was being sarcastic, sorry.
what do you recommend
Get involved. Not just in the voting booth and internet message boards. Get involved in your family, your community, and your culture.
That's how we're going to change things.
I'm no fan of the Democrats. But I'm no fan of the Republicans either. The policies of both parties seem quite at variance with the values of the Gospel.
I assume him to be the blowhard that all Russian presidents and premiers have been over the last 60 years. All talk and bluster.
http://news.aol.com/article/puti...an-tiger/
154687
How many tigers have recent U.S. Presidents killed? (Not that that's a good thing, mind you.) The only things our top executives are famous for shooting is each other.
"In the case of Putin, we do not have a Party apparatchik who survived the game of musical chairs in the Central Committee of the CPSU. Putin was KGB, which did not promote fools very often. Putin's KGB career started in the First Directorate, which dealt with internal dissenters. He is about as warm and cuddly as a spitting cobra, and much harder to read emotionally."
I have no special info on V. V. Putin, but my impression for what it's worth agrees with Ed's: No fool, and in fact a very formidable person. I've consistently felt that personally I would hate to seriously annoy him.
Cold? Yes, probably. But I've met very few westerners who understand Russians as people.
Neither's position is evil in some cosmic way. Sheesh.
Really? Neither the vivisection of tiny live children for medical research nor infanticide are 'cosmically' evil? In which cosmos?
"Really? Neither the vivisection of tiny live children for medical research nor infanticide are 'cosmically' evil? In which cosmos?" Zippy
TR: That's not what I meant. The two positions I meant was voting for McCain or voting third party. Read with a bit more context please.
"You also have no authority to tell or even imply that if you do not vote Republican you are not going to heaven. That is what many of you believe. It is a sick way to look at the faith."
You have no authority to infer from disagreement, even strong disagreement, what you are claiming here. Even if it is what you believe. And whether you believe it or not, it is a sick way to look at the faith.
"With such a pro-life, pro-family nominee finally on the ticket, I really don't think any Catholic can in good conscience, allow an Obama presidency to occur either through direct action or inaction."
I was quoting Victor, BTW. But I do basically agree with him. I think it's one thing to vote third party if there's no chance your vote will make a difference anyway. Maybe, in Washington State, that's the case...I dunno. But if your vote can make a difference--and, in most states, it will--then obviously voting third party is very, very dangerous. All those third-party votes for Perot landed us with Clinton, who started pressing the pro-abort agenda the first day of his presidency.
Especially in a battleground state ora swing state, voting third party means effectively voting for Obama. I have a hard time seeing how a Catholic can justify this. But maybe that's just me.
This is overstating it.
See my comments above. As I noted, the words I quoted were not mine but Victor's. However, I do essentially agree with him.
I do hope that the host is more respectful now to those voting for McCain and that he won't think we're just stupid or fools. I wouldn't bank on that, but that'd be enough for me.
Well, as you say, don't bank on it.
The two positions I meant was voting for McCain or voting third party.
I'm not convinced that voting for the 'pro vivisection of live children for medical research candidate' is not 'cosmically evil'. Though what 'cosmically' does for the proposition is unclear.
Especially in a battleground state or a swing state, voting third party means effectively voting for Obama
No, it doesn't.
By far the most morally important thing about a vote in a national election, as with any trivial act of little or no external consequence, is what it does to you.
"I think it's one thing to vote third party if there's no chance your vote will make a difference anyway. "
DC. If McCain wins DC I expect to see pigs flying past the window.
But if your vote can make a difference--and, in most states, it will--then obviously voting third party is very, very dangerous.
How so?
The only way I could see voting third party as "very, very dangerous" would be if:
a.) One of the parties (GOP or Dem) had a total lock on Righteousness
b.) Abortion was the only issue at stake and McCain (unlike his three previous GOP predecessors) were serious about doing something about it.
Neither of those being the case, I vote my conscience.
Mark S, no one expects any party to have a "total lock on righteousness." But surely you can see the difference between letting a fanatically pro-death pol become POTUS vis-a-vis voting in a pro-life ticket. Think SCOTUS appointments here, OK?
The U.S.bishops' voter guide makes explicitly clear (quoting JPII) that the abortion issue outweighs all other issues, including Iraq war & death penalty. Please...think about it.
But surely you can see the difference between letting a fanatically pro-death pol become POTUS vis-a-vis voting in a pro-life ticket. Think SCOTUS appointments here, OK?
Sorry, Diane, but I've been hearing that exact same argument since I started voting in 1990. We've had three supposedly pro-life GOP Presidential terms since then. Abortion is still legal, and none of the GOP seats in the Oval Office have shown me any reason to believe they are serious about doing anything about it. McCain less so.
I've been used by the GOP long enough. And since abortion is really just about the only issue where I am in complete agreement with most Republicans, I'm taking my vote elsewhere.
The U.S.bishops' voter guide makes explicitly clear (quoting JPII) that the abortion issue outweighs all other issues, including Iraq war & death penalty.
Are you referring to "Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship?"
I've seen it. I haven't analyzed it with a microscope, but in my reading it said no such thing. It did rightly address abortion, to be sure, but it also addressed torture, care for the poor and vulnerable, the dignity of work, environmental issues, etc. In no way does it advocate basing our vote solely on the abortion issue. In fact, reading "Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship," I can't help but conclude that neither McCain nor Obama warrant the vote of a faithful citizen of good conscience.
If the GOP Presidents had ever showed me they were as concerned about the abortion issue as I am, your argument might sway me. But they haven't, and it doesn't.
But if it makes you feel any better, I live in a state that I guarantee you is going to elect Obama by pretty wide margins. My third-party vote will not be missed by either McCain or Obama.
And then...there's Ron Paul. Heh.
"But if your vote can make a difference--and, in most states, it will--" Diane
TR: This is arguable. Going by history and polls as many as 31 states are not competitive. That number pretty much can't be below 11, it being under 20 even seems unlikely, but even if it were as low as 11 a great many of us do not live in those states. Current polls, and electoral history, indicate the following states are most likely not competitive.
Alaska (looked competitive for a time, but that was probably always deceptive)
Hawaii
Idaho
Kansas
Massachusetts
New York
Oklahoma
Rhode Island
Utah
Washington
Wyoming
Nebraska's probably not competitive either, but as they don't go by winner-take-all that complicates them.
Maine will go for Obama. Not that we have a ton of electoral votes, but my third-party vote won't be missed.
Ok, I kid you not. I was shopping for a child's Catholic Bible at a major bookseller and THIS was prominently displayed in the CHILDREN'S RELIGION section:
http://obamamessiah.blogspot.com...ld-of-
hope.html
(There was another Obama book in the section as well).
Naahh, no messianic tendencies at all.. move along.
"But I've met very few westerners who understand Russians as people."
A few younger Russians (
I'm in a state I listed as clearly going one way. I was planning to vote for McCain though.
The reason for this is apparently clear now. I'm a bad person. I really shouldn't be soiling myself with voting at all as being part of a political system with only evil choices is tainting. I should move to a cabin in the woods where I grow my own food and reject the ways of your corrupting mass media technology. This might indeed make free of any evil so after this I should probably destroy my computer. (And if I did there will be much rejoicing)
But I've met very few westerners who understand Russians as people.
That's OK. I've met very few Russians who didn't say such things.
I'm a bad person.
Which explains your McCain vote.
Seriously though, you should vote your conscience. If that's McCain, good for you. If it's Obama, good for you. If it's Nader or Jay or Baldwin or Yoda, good for you.
Or you could even write-in Mr. T. If we get enough write-ins, we could form our own movement. Call it the Pity Party. Our candidate has the slogan already: "I pity ... (fill in the blank)!) Instead of a Presidential debate, we could have a Presidential wrestling match. I guarantee our guy can take any of the others.
That anon. above was me. Wonder why that happened. Oh well, what I said.
In the beginning of the game, I play together with friends to fight more monsters, and lead novice with a wide range of tasks. I experienced a lot of happiness and satisfaction; no matter how many die back, spend how much time, see others expect eyes, thank the speech, I am every happy all time. Because I help others grow, and also help myself grow. In the game, the cheap mabinogi attract many players to join us to play with us.
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