Sorry, I'm stopping after (1). The category of enemy combatant includes those enemy combatants who are classified as prisoners of war. These people are saying that each German and Japanese soldier captured in uniform had a right to a habeas hearing. I am not paid enough to argue with that level of silliness.
Ed the Roman | 02.27.07 - 4:57 pm | #

I have little or no respect for most of the organizations that signed this statement, but I can still support 7 of the 10 demands with no hesitation, and might be open to 2 others.

How hard should it be to say, "We're Americans/Christians, damn it, and there are certain things we just won't do"?

Above all, secrecy is unhealthy to a democratic society. Even if a government feels compelled to make a proverbial deal with the devil, that government has an oblgation to face up to what it's doing, and explain why a necessary evil is truly necessary.
astorian | 02.27.07 - 6:07 pm | #

Astorian:

Thanks! That's pretty much the response I was hoping for!
Mark Shea | Homepage | 02.27.07 - 6:20 pm | #

I would agree with Astorian, though clearly some of these things are more priorities than others.

The moral high ground is worth more in this war than several army divisions. We've been stupid to squander it so.
Josiah | 02.27.07 - 8:05 pm | #

Personally, I think its gonna take more than ten steps and more than one pet cause (torture) to restore American moral authority.
JonathanR. | 02.27.07 - 8:19 pm | #

One of the "things is How hard should it be to say, "We're Americans/Christians, damn it, and there are certain things we just won't do"?

When one of things is "give guys who caaptured at Mazar-e-Sharif wearing cartridge belts a habeas hearing", the answer is, it's much, much too hard for me.
Ed the Roman | 02.28.07 - 7:16 am | #

Mark,

You left out the third approach: those who will endorse it as a cheap exercise in moral vanity.
Mike Walsh, MM | 02.28.07 - 9:43 am | #

Ed,

Why? What do you think goes on at a habeas hearing that would make this problematic?
Josiah | 02.28.07 - 9:44 am | #

What goes on is that it turns war into a court case.

You are demanding that troops in combat preserve an evidence chain, or have their prisoners released.

I'm sorry. This document starts off with a recommendation that is utterly out of touch with warfare. The only way to go further in this direction is to require that battlefield prisoners be Mirandized and provided with a bail hearing, with only those denied bail being transported out of the jurisdiction they were captured in.
This is not even wrong, as Pauli would say.
Ed the Roman | 02.28.07 - 11:48 am | #

Ed:

There are nine other points worth considering.

Mike:

If I said a call to overturn Roe was perfectly sane, would that be cheap moral vanity too? What on earth is wrong with a bunch of ideas for having the US practice ius in bello?
Mark Shea | Homepage | 02.28.07 - 11:57 am | #

Ed,

I believe it's the stated intention of the U.S. government to put the Gitmo detainees on trial for war crimes. So to that extent the war has already been turned into a court case. The only question is, what kind of court case?
Josiah | 02.28.07 - 12:28 pm | #

Mark,

I am making a rhetorical point that the authors are moonbats.

The other nine may be alright, but having put (1) forth, the burden of proof is on them.

Josiah,

Two acts of Congress and the 1st Circuit have said what kind. THey ave said, "Not the kind in which a battlefield captive's being detained AT ALL is subject to challenge according to the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure."

If these guys get habeas then captured members of Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler should have as well.
Ed the Roman | 02.28.07 - 4:43 pm | #

And for the record, my initial dismissive post came before I even read far enough down to know the signatories. Whom I suppose are members of The Usual Suspects, so to speak.
Ed the Roman | 02.28.07 - 4:51 pm | #

every few posts we have to go back to the same old whine about the torture issue.
joeh | 03.02.07 - 3:30 am | #

I think a better top ten would include those things which Pope Paul VI listed in Humanae Vitae. I think this started over the issue of birth control which would lead to treating women as sex objects and of course make abortion necessary for when birth control failed. Note that recent paper shows this is now fact in our society. Ending these things would do far more for the moral aspects of our society than the concern for the torture of those who desire to fly planes into buildings.
joeh | 03.02.07 - 3:34 am | #

joeh:

Maher Arar was tortured in Syria for months. He is a Canadian citizen who was guilty of absolutely nothing.

How do you sleep at night knowing that you make excuses for the torture of innocent people? Do you just pretend that they are all bad guys? Or do you say, "Hey! If Bush tortures them, then they *must* be guilty of something!"

Appalling.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 03.02.07 - 3:48 am | #

I sleep well Mark because I have a President that makes sure he is doing all in his power to keep us safe. This person was detained after we had information from Canada and other sources that he was a terrorist. We sent him back home to Syria. I do not think Bush is in charge of Syria. In this Muslim country he was tortured by Muslims.

We are at war with an enemy who does not live by any civilized rule of law and who have for decades used any means necessary to kill Americans. I think beheading is slightly more serious that waterboarding. I do not see muslims pulled off the streets of our country randomly and tortured. I do not see Gestopo troops at the airports. I do see the terrorist now fighting our troops in a muslim country rather than free to roam our streets planning their next act. I do see many of the top terroist being killed or detained. All of this makes sleep much better. That will end when someone after Bush takes over who promotes abortion and who will not do everything possible to keep my family safe.

Please understand Mark that I have a great deal of respect for you and what you do to promote Church teaching. On some issues, we clearly disagree. However, I do like to come to your blog because I know that I will have the opportunity to read what the church is teaching. In some areas we have to believe as a matter of faith such as abortion. In some, the church allows us to make informed decisions with guidance such as in war and with the death penalty. We differ on the issue of torture, especially during time or war. Once we start into war, some things must bend because of the very nature of warfare. However, I think our society needs some vocal presence to keep us looking at the direction we are going. I do not remember Christ preaching against the beating and crucifixion of prisoners of Rome. He was more interested in the heart, soul and mind of each person and left the other things to Caesar. God also seemed to be OK with war between man and seemed to even take sides. Moses was able to drown the army of Egypt with the help of God. I guess this was the first case of waterboarding to the extreme.
joeh | 03.02.07 - 4:50 am | #

joeh:

Maher Arar was renditioned to Syria for torture by the CIA. We sent him there for that purpose. An innocent man. And you defend that.

The only hope you leave me is twofold:

1. that you don't also claim to be a Christian while you champion the torture of the innocent.

2. that you repent, believe, and *obey* the gospel.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 03.02.07 - 2:00 pm | #