Thanks for your post on this horrible story. Prayer for both Tiller and his murderer are in order. Cardinal O'Connor's quote says it all.
To murder a man like Tiller is to send him to his Maker with the deaths of thousands on his conscience and assumedly unrepentent. No authentic Christian would do such a thing. The murderer has that man's soul on his conscience now. I am certain the pro aborts will try to tag all pro lifers with this murder and widen their net. By the way, what kind of Lutheran church would have a serial killer as a member in good standing? I guess I just assumed that Tiller was an atheist or nonbeliever.
Possible suspect already pulled over here in KS.
Arnold, my understanding is that Tiller was kicked out of the MS Lutheran church where he was previously a member, then joined the ELCA church where he was murdered. Think he's always been a Lutheran.
+J.M.J+
Oh no! Not more anti-abortion violence.
(And yes, I use the term "anti-abortion" purposely, since such murderous vigilantes are anything but "pro-life.")
The first spate of abortionist shootings started shortly after Clinton took office in 1993 and reversed all the Reagan/Bush era executive orders regarding abortion. I was hoping it wouldn't happen again.
Those shootings also led to the Justice Dept. under Reno investigating the pro-life movement and keeping tabs on pro-life organizations. I fear that could happen again, and in a post-9/11 climate be 100 times worse. Lord have mercy!
In Jesu et Maria,
And in a church, of all places.
Well, may God have mercy on Dr. Tiller's soul, and may He comfort his family.
Witnesses caught the license number of the getaway vehicle, which makes me expect that this perpetrator will be caught and brought in in short order.
Abortion is killing, and a terrible sin, but more killing is not the answer, nor do we have license to sin just because we become frustrated or upset at conditions around us.
In today's readings at Mass, among the works of the flesh mentioned were "outbursts of fury". Contrast this with the works of the spirit - patience and hope.
So responsible and balanced pro-life individuals - the vast majority - are characterized by the works of the spirit, such as patience and hope, and not by works of the flesh such as outbursts of fury.
Again we need to keep this in perspective and keep our wits about us.
Should there be attempts to blame the pro-life movement for Dr. Tiller's murder, I shall object and vociferously. Look, several times a year, we read newspaper accounts of men going off the deep-end and shooting their wives and children and themselves - is a movement to blame for that? Lovers quarrel and one kills the other - happens probably weekly - is a movement responsible for that?
Did the pro-Life movement play a role in the actions of the woman astronaut who drove to Florida to shoot her rival for a male astronaut's love? Did the pro-Life movement have anything to do with Drew Petersen allegedly killing two of his wives? What about Phil Specter's murder of the starlet - was the pro-Life movement (or any other movement) influential in that?
Bobby Kennedy? JFK? Martin Luther King? John Paul II (attempted)?
Give me a break!
Ninety-nine percent of people with half a brain in their head will understand that these kinds of things happen with prominent people, people in the limelight. That's why Presidents, popes, judges, Hollywood celebrities, and others hire security. There are unbalanced individuals out there who feel that their ticket to significance in this life is to shoot somebody. Poor souls: they need medication, therapy, wholesome surroundings, and a short leash. Unfortunately, they only sometimes get the first, rarely the next two, and almost never the last. So because of that prominent people get shot at.
Not because of the pro-Life movement. That I don't buy.
If someone informs me that Dr. Tiller's murder is down to the pro-Life movement, I hope to ask them who was behind the attempted murders of Pope Paul II and Ronald Reagan?
No one "deserves" to die; no one "deserves" to be murdered. As Christians we do not rejoice in evil-doing but only in Christ, who is the source of Life.
~~~~~~
There was a time when the pro abortion movement could convince many people that the murder of an abortionist was the fault of the entire pro life movement. I don't know if that is the case any more. It could depend in part of who and what this guy is they may have caught.
"the pro abortion movement could convince many people that the murder of an abortionist was the fault of the entire pro life movement>"
Arnold, isn't part of our job as pro-Lifer's to speak out and defend the movement against this baseless and cowardly slander?
I'm afraid that the pro-abortion talking heads (daily kos for one) are already painting us in the hypocritical right wing extremist/terrorist mode.
According to the latest polls the majority of people in the US claim to be pro-life. Thanks to this piece of shit that may shift. Also thanks to this piece of shit FOCA is as good as law.
Animals who murder baby-killing animals are traitors of the first rank. They will wind up in the same Hell as the baby killers. They will likely suffer more since they should have known better & they have practically handed the scissors to the professional baby killers to slay even more innocents.
"pro-abortion talking heads (daily kos for one) are already painting us in the hypocritical right wing extremist/terrorist mode."
Well, I suggest we don't make it easy for them.
Look, if the message coming out of mainstream pro-Life camps is: this is very sad news - we don't approve of murder, anyone's murder - we deplore all instances of homicide, that might be a start!
Arrest has apparently been made near Gardner, KS. I really hope this guy isn't Catholic.
I really hope this guy isn't Catholic.
He is what he is.
Look, the main think about the perpetrator is that he is a person unbalanced enough to commit homicide.
Unbalanced persons do this every day of the week.
The pro-Life movement is not to blame for the actions of the man who gunned down Dr. Tiller any more than we are for to blame for the thousands of people gunned down in this country annually.
It won't wash.
I was just thinking:
to suppose that this shoot may have been a paranoid schizophrenic would probably encounter more objections than to suggest that he may have been Catholic or pro-Life.
Damnit, this is an unqualified disaster. One human being is murdered, and somebody else will keep the clinic operating anyway. What did Tiller's murderer accomplish besides destroying a human life, the very thing he is ostensibly opposed to? I'm p'o'd about this...
Intellectually and spiritually I feel one thing, but emotionally something quite different.
Pax.
Sorry, Marion, but as a Catholic living in Wichita, I really hope the idiot is not Catholic. Of course, the pro-life movement is not to blame for this man's murder, and the Catholic church isn't either, but the fallout is going to be bad.
"Of course, the pro-life movement is not to blame for this man's murder,"
True, yet in the days to come the media and "Caesar" will inform the world otherwise.
Should responsible citizens and our government oppose the Environmental movement because of instances of eco-terrorism, such as:
Rod Coronado – at a public gathering, explained how to create an arson device.
Wiebo Ludwig – saboteur of petroleum mining.
Marie Mason - environmental activist sentenced to twenty-two years for arson
Eric McDavid – attempted to construct a bomb in a plan to sabotage the Nimbus Dam, the U.S. Forest Service's Institute of Forest Genetics, and other targets.
Daniel McGowan – set fire to a lumber farm.
William C. Rodgers – accused of setting fire to the National Wildlife Research Center in Olympia, Washington.
Paul Watson - Attempted to sink the Norwegian fishing vessel Nybrænna
(From Wikipedia article "Ecoterrorism")
None of these instances resulted in death, however, ecoterrorism has been suspected in the cases of several deaths in which loggers who were injured as a result of booby-trapped trees.
And any instance of arson could easily become life-threatening should persons unknown be on the premises, or if the fire should spread to other homes, businesses or automobiles. Arson is by no means a "safe" means of self-expression.
~~~~~~
The answer to my above question is, is "of course not!"
Decent and responsible environmentalists are not to be blamed for acts of ecoterrorism.
And few do.
Decent and responsible pro-Lifers are not to be blamed for acts of criminal violence against physicians who perform abortions.
Plenty seem to, though.
That there is a double standard about such matters says are lot more about those placing the blame than it does about the pro-Life movement.
May God Have mercy on his soul. We need to pray for this man's soul and ask hat God's perfect mercy weighs His justice. But Tiller's life style with his unquenchable lust for blood and his lack of mercy towards God's children led to his unfortunate and violent death. Hopefully he will exprience God's mercy, something he could not give to others.
The general public has no idea of the havoc wrought by eco-terrorists and animal rights nutjobs. Neither did they hear about the peaceful prayer vigils at ND earlier this month.
But here, one lunatic's shot cancels millions of prayers, hundreds of thousands of marchers etc in an instant. Good luck getting conscience rights for medical personnel now. An interesting book could be written examining each abortion-related shooting and its harm to the prolife cause.
Please, oh please let the assassin not be Catholic!
Tiller's murder and Obama's speech has hurt so the pro-life movement so much. We have lost the intellectual battle through some pretty sly backstabbing, now I can only pray we do not start using violence as the new strategy.
"According to the latest polls the majority of people in the US claim to be pro-life."
That does not mean that they think abortion should be illegal. Especially if the pregnancy may endanger the health of the woman.
This is a sad day for good and honest people on both sides of the abortion debate.
Shot in a Church. I'm not looking forward to the hay atheists are going to make of this....
Dr. Tiller's murder is abhorrent to all sincere pro-Life groups and individuals. To be pro-Life is to regard as sacred all human life, from the moment of conception until natural death. The direct taking of human life (apart from competent legal authority) can never be justified. Therefore, all instances of homicide, whether these occur during instances of domestic violence, in altercations between neighbors or motorists, between members of rival gangs, during brawling, murder-for-hire operations, crimes of passion, criminal attempts to inherit money or property, or to silence witnesses, or for ideological motives, pro-Lifers reaffirm their objections to all instances of criminal homicide, and on no account endorse or approve any of these instances of it, even when, and particularly when the victim is one whose career decisions they have ideologically opposed.
"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
~~~~~~
I imagine at his judgment Tiller will be confronted with all the babies he murdered in the name of "women's health."
Headline: Population of Hell increases by 1.
+J.M.J+
From the latest revision of the article Mark linked to:
President Obama said this afternoon that he was "shocked and outraged" by the killing of abortion doctor George Tiller, who was shot while attending church in east Wichita....
"However profound our differences as Americans over difficult issues such as abortion, they cannot be resolved by heinous acts of violence," the president said in a statement issued by the White House.
Y'know, it would be interesting if it turns out the murderer wasn't an anti-abortion activist after all. I know it's a stretch to think that, but we don't know exactly what his motive was yet. Well, I can always hope....
One way this differs from 1993 - back then pro-life groups couldn't immediately denounce the violence on the internet:
http://www.priestsforlife.org/pr...iller-
death.htm
http://www.all.org/article.php?id=11966
At least now they can make it crystal clear where they stand on such murders.
In Jesu et Maria,
Yeah, that last one was me. Forgot to change the name in Haloscan.
In Jesu et Maria,
"Tiller will be confronted with all the babies he murdered in the name of 'women's health.'"
"Headline: Population of Hell increases by 1."
Please.
Such displays of lack of dignity and lack of class are beneath those committed to the sanctity of human life.
My hope is that these commenters are in their teens or early twenties. (Very early.)
~~~~~
Nope! Mid-'30s, Marion! Feel free to take the moral high ground 
I mean this ONLY in the metaphysical sense: if the concept of Hell is not reserved for people like Tiller, then the concept of Hell has no meaning. I'm cool with whatever you happen to believe, either way. I just happen to believe in the concept of Hell; and I would never ever wish anyone -- not Tiller, not anyone -- to ever be sent there. I hear it's just awful.
I don’t know why people assume the murderer was Tiller’s “opponent.” It looks like it was someone who had one very fundamental point of agreement with Tiller: that blowing somebody's brains out is “the final solution.”
Like Rosemary, I hold out hope that the killer might not be an abortion opponent. It certainly wouldn't be a shocker if someone like Tiller was also a womanizer, an embezzler, or otherwise able to provoke private hatred. Unfortunately, I know in my heart this is probably not what happened (especially due to the church setting).
+J.M.J+
Oh well, our hopes may have been dashed.
News reports now identify the suspect as Scott Roeder. Someone by that name posted things on the Operation Rescue site in the past, though its not clear yet the extent of his involvement in that group (they denounced the killer earlier today, BTW, though their website is currently down).
Someone online dug up this record about someone by the same name (and of the same age) who lives in Kansas:
http://165.201.143.205/kasper2/o...er.asp?
id=35318
...and here's more info about the latter case from http://www.adl.org/mwd/cocv1n3.asp:
July 7, Kansas: Scott Roeder is sentenced to sixteen months in state prison for parole violations following a 1996 conviction for having bomb components in his car trunk. Roeder, a sovereign citizen and tax protester, violated his parole by not filing tax returns or providing his social security number to his employer.
If that's the same guy (seems likely), he sounds like a real right-wing extremist.
In Jesu et Maria,
Okay, the last link isn't working; try:
http://www.adl.org/mwd/cocv1n3.asp
In Jesu et Maria,
We know that change of hearts do not come from murder, but from conversion. It's a shame because now we have lost any possible opportunity to have convert Dr. Tiller to be pro-life.
"John Paul Roeder, 72, Topeka, died Friday, July 28, 2000, at a Rossville (Kansas) nursing home.
Mr. Roeder served as a minister in the Methodist Church. He served in the U.S. Army and also worked for many years for the state in the personnel division.
He was born Oct. 12, 1927, in Kansas City, Kan., . . .
Survivors include . . . two sons, . . . and Scott Roeder, . . ."
Not saying this is the Scott Roeder of Shawnee, Kansas who is guilty, but he may be the Scott Roeder of Kansas whom the police are questioning.
"We know that change of hearts do not come from murder, but from conversion. It's a shame because now we have lost any possible opportunity to have convert Dr. Tiller to be pro-life."
Renee, yours is the best comment I have come across in a long time. Thank you!
Please, a little less hysteria.
The killer--whether or not he turns out to be Scott Roeder--may or may not be Catholic. Even if he is Catholic, the pro-life sky will not fall.
Remember James Kopp? He was a convert to Catholicism, was active in the Lambs of Christ anti-abortion group, and had a bit of a national reputation--even before he killed abortionist Barnett Slepian in 1998.
Kopp was on the lam for three years, becoming a Traditionalist Catholic. Eventually captured in France, he was tried in New York in 2003 and was sentenced to life imprisonment.
His case received much publicity, over a long span of time, and the pro-life movement ... did not disappear. In fact, it would be difficult to demonstrate any long-term effect on the movement, one way or the other. (How many, of the next 100 people you meet on the street, even can recall the Kopp case?)
While deploring what just occurred, we should not exaggerate its likely influence. Very few murders result in any attitudinal movement that can be detected even by the most sensitive seismometer.
Marion,
I went back and twice re-read my comment about Tiller facing his victims at the time of his judgment. I still do not see why you consider that a statement lacking in class or dignity. It is not a wish for his death. I simply believe that all of us will face what we did when we are judged and that Tiller will face the thousands he killed. I hope that was not impious of me.
Mr. Keating, in the present political environment, one in which the Obama Administration's Head of Homeland Security has already twice published official documents in which "pro-lifers" are described as sharing characterists with "extremists" and other "terrorists", who should be "watched", it is not, I should think, attributable to undue delicacy that members of the pro-Life community should regard news of the violent death of an abortionist as inimical to the prosperity of their cause, or, indeed, possibly to that of their own careers.
I still do not see why you consider that a statement lacking in class or dignity.
Arnold,
I was out-of-line to rebuke you or anyone here, as I am (a) only a guest of our mutual host, (b) a sinner like everyone else.
May God bless you, and please remember me in your prayers. Thank you.
Falling right into Napolitano's trap. Sigh. May God have mercy on both murderers.
Violence among pro-Life activists is rare; probably approximately on the same order as that among environmental and animal rights activists, although it's hard to gauge since (as Sandra Miesel noted above), the mainstream news media give nowhere near the coverage to violence perpetrated by environmental and animal rights activists that they do violence by pro-Life activists.
Be that as it may, we know both exist, and my hope is that we might mention this to relatives and acquaintances if the topic is being discussed in conversation, and if we feel mentioning it might do any good.
~~~~~
Information has been released about the suspect. It appears that he does have ties to the anti-abortion group "Operation Rescue," as well as prior arrests and convictions. More here:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/20...r-
Assassination
Mark,
Amen and amen.
At least we will have the comfort of a few good priests like Frank Pavone to aid us on our way out of the cell and into the next life.
Marion
sorry I'm replying to your comments really far up on the ladder of posts so you might not even see it, but I wanted to comment on your statement about "people with half a brain realizing that this was a personal attack"
The problem is when fierce political views are involved, people become incredibly blind and short sighted. They will be quick to turn this into another example of how the pro-life movement is based on "violent fascist fundamentalism". These political views have a huge clouding effect on the minds of what would normally be rational people. WE, as Catholics and pro-lifers know that events like this are the exception, not the rule.
They, who see us as an enemy and a threat will use this as a black brush to paint us all. If it weren't for the revelation, which tells us that Evil is a product of Satan, not of other people ,the same thing would happen with us, and sometimes does in spite of the revelation. I've often heard the worst traits of some rare cases on the left used to characterize everyone on the left all the time. As a former leftist who converted it pains me to hear these things about those I still consider friends though no longer agree with on some issues.
Political ideology is false morality, it causes torture defenders to defend torture even though they are Christians , it causes leftists to defend abortion even though they know its an act of violence and even though they sense deep inside that it is wrong. (and even goes against one of their most highly held values which is not to dehumanize others) it darkens both the heart and the intellect, sending undeserved hatred in one direction (toward one's perceived enemy) and undiscerned charity in the other (my country right or wrong).
It saddens me and angers me so much.
Why does the ADL take an explicit pro-legalized abortion policy?
http://www.adl.org/PresRele/supr..._33/
3638_33.asp
Whatever else it is, the ADL is a pro-abort agitprop outfit.
"Information has been released about the suspect. It appears that he does have ties to the anti-abortion group 'Operation Rescue,' as well as prior arrests and convictions."
The relevant quote from the Daily Kos website: "He (Roeder) was also an active member of Operation Rescue; in 2007 a "Scott Roeder" posted this on the Operation Rescue website (which has been down throughout the day, probably more as a result of increased traffic than any sense of collective shame):"
First off, Roeder is being questioned by the police; there may be other suspects as well. The man is innocent until proven guilty.
Secondly, does the Daily Kos believe that Roeder's having posted a comment on Operation Rescue's website constitutes sufficient evidence of his "active membership" in that organization?
On what planet?
Thirdly, the Daily Kos' implication that Operation Rescue should bear a sense of "shame" for some alleged connection to Dr. Tiller's murder, is another instance of baseless and cowardly tactics with which pro-abortion groups and individuals will try to attack the pro-Life movement.
That they put forth such nonsense suggests to me that they are out of arguements, and they know it. Pretty desperate, at this point.
Commenter Rosemarie, above, seems to grasp the implications that such publications are alluding to.
Roeder is innocent until proven guilty, of course, hence "suspect," and not "murderer" or "terrorist."
Barbara wrote, "Political ideology is false morality"
100% Amen and amen.
It's taken many, many years to get my stereo in anything approximating proper balance: religiously pro-Life and
.
Sorry, my comment got cut off.
Thanks Barbara for all you said.
"Commenter Rosemarie, above, seems to grasp the implications that such publications are alluding to.
Roeder is innocent until proven guilty, of course, hence "suspect," and not "murderer" or "terrorist."
Update | Homepage"
NEWSFLASH! Commenter "Update" (whose homepage is the Daily Kos) is a charter member of THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH!
We have evidence! Exhibit A - "Update" is posting a comment on the "Catholic and Enjoying It Website."
So, Update? What parish do you belong to? And did you play in CYO?
No, no! Sorry, I didn't mean to give that impression, and my homepage is not Daily Kos (I just put a link I found there). I merely thought this was pertinent information to the discussion.
In other words: It appears that, indeed, Dr. Tiller's murder will draw attention the more extreme elements of anti-abortion groups.
Based on the Daily Kos inference about Suspect Roeder being an "active member" of Operation Rescue, The Daily Kos seems to want to have their readers believe that if a man posts a comment at a given organization's website, we are therefore to conclude that that man is an "active member" of that organization.
Following the Daily Kos' own logic, Update, since you are posting comments here at Catholic and Enjoying it, shouldn't we therefore conclude that you yourself are a . . . .
. . . an "active member" of the Roman Catholic Church?
Right?
I'm just following Daily Kos' train of thought here. . . . (which, come to think of it, may not be the best idea on the block.)
~~~~
No, I don't think that is what the linked article implied. I think the article was probably drawing attention to the *content* of Scott Roeder's posts on the Operation Rescue site; those, coupled with his criminal history, might raise a red flag and perhaps indicate that he was affiliated with an extremist group.
I wonder if the Obama administration's new domestic terrorist laws will come to bear in this situation? It seems like they may?
Update, I believe you and I have differing interpretations of the Daily Kos article, however, I limit my prolonged discussions about writings to writings worth reading, a category into which, sadly, Kos is not thus far placed.
It's late here in Eastern Daylily* Time land; I must be abed. Good-night! I hope to continue with you tomorrow or one day soon. Adieu, and may God bless us, every one.
__________
*not a typo, a whimsy.
~~~~
>While deploring what just occurred, we should not exaggerate its likely influence. Very few murders result in any attitudinal movement that can be detected even by the most sensitive seismometer.
I reply: One thing I've always liked about you Mr. Keating is you have always been the voice of sanity.
I agree with Mr. Keating that this won't have a seismic impact. In a nation of 1/3 of a billion people, a seismic impact requires tens of millions of people to change their minds.
But I do think this will cause thousands of people to change their minds.
I just watched clips on TV of people who attend the church in which Tiller was murdered. They are horrified, and are uniting in support of him.
Forget for a moment that it’s a church... what matters is that it's a public place. Are there any public places you frequent? A local supermarket? A favorite Burger King? A social club? If someone you didn’t know but whose face you recognized were brutally shot in the head in that location, wouldn’t your initial reaction be one of horror and sympathy?
In a month, most Americans will forget about this. For a few months when the trial is front-page news they will remember, but then they'll forget again afterwards.
But not anyone who lives within a few miles of this church. This event will never be forgotten. Every time they drive by the church they will remember, "oh, that's the church where a zealot shot that abortion doctor." They might not remember the names, but they will remember the doctor (attending church) and the pro-lifer (firing bullets into his head).
It is incredibly rare that people who know a lot about the abortion debate, or who have thought about abortion a lot, change their minds or hearts. It can happen, of course, and we pray for it -- but it's rare. How many ardent adult pro-lifers or pro-choicers do you know who have switched sides? Nathanson, of course. He had a Damascus experience. But think about people you know, not just people you read about. How common is it?
What is common is for people who don't have a strong opinion, or who haven't thought about it much, to acquire an opinion as a result of a shocking or sudden or surprising event.
Seeing an ultrasound of your niece. Having a girlfriend say “I’m pregnant.” Having someone you recall seeing in church once or twice gunned down in public. Such things galvanize people and causes them to become pro-life or pro-choice, usually for the rest of their lives.
This murder has pushed thousands of Americans to the pro-choice side.
That's not seismic. But it's really bad. Have you persuaded a thousand people in your lifetime to become pro-life?
+J.M.J+
>>>Commenter Rosemarie, above, seems to grasp the implications that such publications are alluding to.
Yes, I do, which is why I also wrote: "though its not clear yet the extent of his involvement in that group (they denounced the killer earlier today, BTW, though their website is currently down)."
Obviously, Operation Rescue has always been about peaceful civil disobedience and is not responsible for the violent actions of some guy who once posted something on their website.
In fact, before posting I did a search for his name on Google's cache of the Operation Rescue site and only found that one post from him. So I tend to doubt he was in any capacity a representative of the organization in the first place.
Oh, and FWIW, I did not get my info about Roeder from Daily Kos, but from two other websites. I don't like the Daily Kos and so tend to avoid it. So I certainly don't agree with their jump to the conclusion that he was an "active member" of Operation Rescue. It's too soon to know that.
In Jesu et Maria,
Have you persuaded a thousand people in your lifetime to become pro-life?
True. On the one hand, I doubt I personally will have persuaded a thousand people to become pro-Life (or anything else) throughout my lifetime.
On the other hand, who knows what each of us may accomplish by uniting our prayers and sacrifices to the will of God, throughout our lifetimes?
Maybe thousands. Maybe tens of thousands. Maybe millions.
~~~~~
+J.M.J+
Well, looks like Roeder may not be Catholic:
Relatives identified him as Scott Roeder. Roeder's uncle, Clarence Roeder, issued a statement Sunday evening.
"This is a tragedy for the Tiller family and we feel so badly about that, that Scott would murder the doctor in the Lutheran church. We are also Lutherans, and that adds a double touch of sadness and irony."
Family members told KMBC's Jim Flink that Scott Roeder had been in and out of trouble in the 1990s, and they had not seen him since 2000, when his father died.
From: http://www.kmbc.com/news/1961573...730/
detail.html
...unless, of course, he converted since 2000.
In Jesu et Maria,
It was not justified, but saying it "just murdered the pro-life movement."? Please.
Constant prayer will ALWAYS keep the pro-life movement strong.
+J.M.J+
Since it's been posted on many other websites, I might as well post Roeder's comment on the Operation Rescue site (which is still down). Back in 2007, "Scott Roeder" wrote:
“Bleass everyone for attending and praying in May to bring justice to Tiller and the closing of his death camp.
Sometime soon, would it be feasible to organize as many people as possible to attend Tillers church (inside, not just outside) to have much more of a presence and possibly ask questions of the Pastor, Deacons, Elders and members while there? Doesn’t seem like it would hurt anything but bring more attention to Tiller.”
So, someone with the same name as the man who shot Tiller actually mentions, not only Tiller, but the church he attended, and even suggests that pro-lifers should actually "organize" to attend Tiller's church.
It's just too coincidental to think that this is not the guy who murdered him yesterday.
This whole incident is so disgusting. Cardinal O'Connor was so right; you can't prevent killing by killing. It truly is madness. And murdering him in a church, of all places, just adds a whiff of sacrilege to an already evil act. I was reading accounts given by the worshipers there, it's just horrible. I would hate for something like that to happen in the church I attend. Just terrible. Throw the book at the murderer.
In Jesu et Maria,
"This murder has pushed thousands of Americans to the pro-choice side."
Has it really? How do you know? How was your measurement of "thousands" taken?
And how do you know that the news stories might not bring thousands of others to understand the horror of what Tiller did for a living, with those thousands moving toward the pro-life position?
Your remark is precisely the kind I'm cautioning against. The fact is, we can't know now--and may not ever be able to know--what attitudinal changes an event like this produces.
+J.M.J+
Marion writes:
>>>Not saying this is the Scott Roeder of Shawnee, Kansas who is guilty, but he may be the Scott Roeder of Kansas whom the police are questioning.
Comparing the info from the obituary with Clarence Roeder's statement to the press, it is the same guy. The death occurred in 2000, as Clarence said, plus the obituary says:
Survivors include a daughter, Denise Lohness, Topeka; two sons, David Roeder, Topeka, and Scott Roeder, Shawnee; a brother, Clarence Roeder, Leawood; and four grandchildren.
(http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4179/
is_20000801/ai_n11752750/)
Note the mention of the deceased's brother, Clarence, who would be uncle of the deceased's son, Scott. Yep, same guy.
In Jesu et Maria,
Good morning, folks. I feel a little different today. I wasn't in a good mood yesterday, and had some thoughts about this that I knew were ... well, non-Christian.
This morning, I recognize it as a murder, plain and simple.
I don't believe in identity politics and have been worried about the relentless trend toward tribalism in the United States. If he's Catholic or not, Christian or not -- he's an individual who made a choice. A bad one. He's responsible.
How this effects the pro-life cause, I can't say ... except I will point out that the pro-life cause won the debate intellectually decades ago. Pro-life is one of the few causes where you can approach it from a scientific, rational, legal or spiritual framework and you come up with the same answer.
To get to pro-choice, you need to destroy the idea of truth ... and even the possibility of truth. It's a form of nihilism.
We can all find common ground in reducing the number of men seeking to kill abortionists.
In defense (to my surprise) of Kos, they had a post up this morning that basically said "religion isn't bad -- it's fanaticism that's bad. Don't lay Tiller's murder at the door of Christianity."
on the road, posting from my phone; apprecuate the depth of tbe discussion... I think we need 2 things: a public prayer or novenaor act of reparation for violence done by abortion opponents (no, Roeder isn't anybody's fault but Roeder's; but we need prayer -- quoting Cdl O'Connor and saying "we all deplore..." won't cut it); and we need somebody (Cdl George?) to point out to the president that this would be a good place to stake that common ground -- protect the consciences of real pro-lifers while prosecuting the murderer to the full extent if the (normal, pre 9/11 panic) law.
St. Thomas Aquinas saw tyrannicide as an obligation in some circumstances as did Calvin and Luther. But Dr. Tiller was not a king who held sway over anyone and the women who came to him were not dragged and they will go to someone else with him dead.
One of the conditions for tyrannicide itself which again does not apply here... is that it will bring about an immense improvment which again in this case does not obtain since virtually the same women will find other people to do this. Tyrannicide is not even allowed when no improvement would be forthcoming as e.g. in a country like communist China where someone from the same party would simply replace the tyrant and would think in a similar vein.
This was simply a murder of Tiller.
Were it justified, then one could justify hunting down all drug dealers and shooting them on the spot etc etc.
This road leads to the earth as a vigilante killing field by definition since there are always enormities being committed by many against humanity.
I wonder how many people who condemn this murder (of a man who, it's safe to say, was going to kill unborn children next week) are eager for Israel (and maybe the United States) to attack Iran because it *might* develop nuclear weapons which it *might* use on other countries.
?I'm afraid that the pro-abortion talking heads (daily kos for one) are already painting us in the hypocritical right wing extremist/terrorist mode.
And many of them seem to be hoping the current administration can use this as their Reichstag Fire to bring down Operation Rescue and maybe even the Republican party itself.
I will condemn Tiller's assailant as soon as "pro-choicers" condemn Tiller for murdering children.
This sounds a lot like "I will condemn torture by the United States as soon as Moslems/Democrats/Arabs/whatever condemn Saddam Hussein/al-Qaeda/the Iraqi insurgency/whatever." Why can't you condemn evil wherever it shows its face?
Last evening at Mass here in Wichita, the priest added a personal intention for the repose of the soul of George Tiller. He noted that no matter how fundamentally we hated what he (Dr Tiller) had done in his life, he was still a man made in the image of God, and his murder was a heinous act. We were all encouraged to pray for Dr Tiller's soul and for the comfort of his family. (and for the repentance of whoever had committed the murder)
t won't take much more for Caesar to decide that not all terrorists are Islamic and begin to strip prolifers of the protections of law "to keep us safe".
And we dirty socialist hippies will rally, and organize, and do what we can to defend your human rights, too.
So this guy was unstable not a terrorist? Please, people who bomb clinics, and shoot Dr.s who are abiding by a law (that they don't like) in God's name are terrorist. Tim McVeigh was a terrorist. The KKK are terrorist. People who use fear and intimidation are either the mob/gangs or terrorist.
Just because someone is white does not mean they can't be terrorist.
Everyone one from Pro life groups, to the media and the president need to label this as an act of domestic terrorism
John you are talking sedition. How are you going to openly defy the government, which is the people by the people? The fact of the matter is many people no longer care either way.
The younger generations blame the "wedge" issues as the big reason are country's infostructure is crumbling and politics have been stagnant. Now people generally do make a distinction between pro life Catholics who seem to actually care about the children after they are born, and non Catholic pro lifers. However, I have yet to hear people explain how they are going to reform our foster care system/ child welfare system if abortion became illegal. In the past many republicans (again minus Catholics) act as if they don't care if children starve to death after they are born and unfortunately a few groups have links to supremist organizations. Even those who do not mix other politics (like immigration) with pro life.
I've heard on Christian radio (and t.v.) that we would not have all of these "illegal" aliens if children had not been aborted they claim that the minimum wage would be as low as 2 dollars if Roe v. Wade had not occurred. We have some major issues w/child care and wealth fare in this country and many people (rightly or wrongly) view the pro life movement as one that does not care about children. Look at the Gov. of South Carolina you can't convince me (or many of the Children in SC) that he cares about children at all.
For the pro -life movement to actually win they need to divorce themselves from the Republican party and other political issues and present a real plan for what a pot Abortion America would look like, they need to show people they care for the BORN w/the same fervor that they care for the UNBORN.
"This sounds a lot like "I will condemn torture by the United States as soon as Moslems/Democrats/Arabs/whatever condemn Saddam Hussein/al-Qaeda/the Iraqi insurgency/whatever." Why can't you condemn evil wherever it shows its face?"
Why do pro-choicers advocate violence (against unborn children) and then in the same breath condemn violence against abortionists? They are hypocrites, all. If prolife people want to condemn the action, fine. But prochoicers have no moral standing here. None.
From an article posted in the Wichita Eagle today: (here is the full article - http://www.kansas.com/news/tille...ry/834448.html)
'Suzanne James, former director of victim's services for Shawnee County, said she remembered Roeder.
"He was part of the One Supreme Court, a Freemen group based out of Shawnee County," James said. "He was fanatic about a lot of things. I went to one of his court appearances and thought, 'This guy is dangerous.' There were a lot of red flags that came up about him."
In recent years, someone using the name Scott Roeder has posted anti-Tiller comments on various Internet sites. One post, dated Sept. 3, 2007, and placed on a site called chargetiller.com, said that Tiller needed to be "stopped."
"It seems as though what is happening in Kansas could be compared to the 'lawlessness' which is spoken of in the Bible," it said. "Tiller is the concentration camp 'Mengele' of our day and needs to be stopped before he and those who protect him bring judgment upon our nation."'
John:
Seamus is prolife. Try learning something about the strangers you condemn.
A quote from another article in the Wichita Eagle, from Mark Gietzen of the Kansas Coalition for Life:
"If this person's connected in any way to the pro-life movement, it'll set us back 20 years because the people of America do not approve of this behavior," said Mark Gietzen of Wichita, who heads the Kansas Coalition for Life and has organized 1,846 consecutive days of protest outside Tiller's clinic.
If prolife people want to condemn the action, fine.
Well, actually, I do.
Another article on Dr. Tiller's murder, this one from the Kansas City Star.
By Judy L. Thomas | Kansas City Star
'The suspect in custody for the slaying of Wichita abortion doctor George Tiller was a member of an anti-government group in the 1990s and a staunch opponent of abortion.
Scott P. Roeder, 51, of Merriam, Kan., a Kansas City suburb, was arrested on Interstate 35 near Gardner in suburban Johnson County, Kan., about three hours after the shooting. Tiller was shot to death around 10 a.m. inside Reformation Lutheran Church in Wichita.
In the rear window of the 1993 blue Ford Taurus that he was driving was a red rose, a symbol often used by abortion opponents. On the rear of his car was a Christian fish symbol with the word "Jesus" inside.
Those who know Roeder said he believed that killing abortion doctors was an act of justifiable homicide.'
The entire article is available here: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/
s...n=page_nav#none
John a terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist. First of all the alleged shooter probably should not have been out. He had violated conditions of his parole. Second, he's a domestic terrorist.
OH and the alleged shooter may have had links to Christian Idenity (McVeigh's little friends). Also, (and again I'm younger) but I've known and thought ELF (earth liberation front) were terrorist for at least 9 years.
One has to love the hypocracy of the Daily Kos & thier particians.
To quote the Catholic League.
>Worse than this irresponsible accusation is the hypocrisy of the Daily Kos: above the O’Reilly video is an advertisement for an upcoming interview on C-Span2 with Bill Ayers, the urban terrorist who is a hero in some left-wing circles.
Bill Ayers? Gotta love the double standard.
Plus this myth that violence is only coming from "Pro-life" types is equally comical.
http://prochoiceviolence.com/
I don't see why Americans and the US government won't tar the pro-life movement with the brush that Tiller's murderer handed them. Some might say that his murderer pulled the trigger, but the pro-life movement handed him the gun.
After all, the country pretty much painted all Muslims as terrorists after 9/11. People even attacked Sikhs just because they wear a head-dress. Michelle Malkin, in one of her screeds, tried to lead a boycott of Dunkin' Donuts when they had an ad featuring Rachel Ray wearing a checkered scarf, because "the scarf looks like an keffiyeh that TERRORISTS wear! Dunkin Donuts hates America!" Imagine if the holy cross becomes a symbol of hate just because some nutty white supremacist freaks (Terry Nichols, Timothy McVeigh) had it tattooed on their bodies or something equally vile.
*Shudder*
Some might say that his murderer pulled the trigger, but the pro-life movement handed him the gun.
All sorts of people say all sorts of things. The awesome thing about the United States is that most of us are men and women of good will with good hearts and plenty of good common sense. Sure, there are idiots, bigots, yahoos, thugs, and nitwits among us. These all have mean, ugly attitudes, and they certainly to tell all the world about it. Each one of them can do the hootin', hollerin' and hell-raisin' of twenty men. And does.
Most of the rest of us can spot an idiot, a bigot, a yahoo, a thug, and a nitwit when we come across one. You can usually tell by the ruckus they're raising. Mostly we just ignore them and sooner or later, they mostly pretty much go away.
The ones that get listened to are the quiet ones. The ones who show up in tough times and lend a helping hand. The ones who show they care. They may have something to say, too, but they get it across by coming alongside, in a friendly way. Respectful.
These are the ones most Americans listen to.
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Interview with Diane Derzis on CNN.
http://tinyurl.com/m39qsk
She reiterates what's been posted on a lot of blogs following Dr. Tiller's murder:
Derzis: Make no mistake, there are so many people in this country who are pro-life and are decent, hard working, good people. But the people by and large who stand in front of these clinics every day have their own agenda and that agenda is to do away with abortion in whatever way they can. The election of Barack Obama put them in a corner. They’re losing and the only way they see to take care of this is to kill us. This is just the first of what I foresee as many more.
Probably best not to refer to a fellow human being who is also created in the likeness and image of God as a "monster" and then act surprised when a fringe element within the pro-life community decides said person is less than human and therefore it is okay to murder them.
We pro-lifers should know better than to dehumanize anyone, no matter what stage of development they are in or what they have done with their gift of life.
Hmm-m... Michael... since I can't really quite figure out what the hell you are actually talking about... can I at least assume by your post that you are announcing to us that you were definitely not a *key* member of the 2008 Obama presidential campaign team?
.
Michael... your post has obviously met the 'magic eraser' and completely and mysteriously disappeared!!! So there!!!
Now you have personally witnessed the power of the Mark Shea 'W.W.W.'
May you repent and become a good boy soon!!!
.
So ... we should all do what makes Caesar happy so we can stay out of jail? Isn't that kind of the opposite of what Jesus and the Apostles did?
Here are two paragraphs from the Catechism that, at least arguably, justify the incapacitation of mass murderers like Tiller. Seems like this should at least be considered.
2321 The prohibition of murder does not abrogate the right to render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. Legitimate defense is a grave duty for whoever is responsible for the lives of others or the common good.
2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
Catholic theologians distinguish most carefully between the rights and obligations of those in positions of public authority as opposed to private individuals.
There are things as holders of the public trust that public office-holders may licitly do which private citizens may not do, and vice versa.
This the Catholic Church has believed and taught from day one, and so do the legal systems of most Western countries.
Thus, the state may imprison a man, may prosecute him, try and convict him and may execute him.
If a private individual were to imprison another, that individual would be guilty of the sin of abduction and the crime of kidnapping.
If a private individual were to intentionally set about to kill another individual, he would be guilty of the sin of murder, and the crime of homicide. Homicide-one.
Saint Thomas Aquinas specifies that only persons having "the rank of public authority" may do take another's life, and not private individuals. "It is lawful for any private individual to do anything for the common good, provided it harm nobody: but if it be harmful to some other, it cannot be done . . ."
Aquinas does allow the use of force to repel the attack of another, but not with the premeditated intention of killing him. A defense with the intention to take the life of another is never lawful according to Saint Thomas: "it is not lawful for a man to intend killing a man in self-defense, except for such as have public authority." (Summa II-II Q. 64.)
~~~~~~
Including defending the
Jacobus filius Jacobi nepos Jacobi,
The stories that link provides include police being rough during an arrest - soemthing that many individuals who've been arrested for any of several causes can probably complain of, the serial killer of "Devil in the White City" fame; lots of people who weren't political activists, but simply sick opportunists -- used the fact that abortion was available to hide their impregnation of minors - in other words, the numbers are padded. There're relatively few if any pro-choice activists attacking pro-life activists with lethal force. There ARE enough cases of 'pro-life' activists shooting abortionists, nurses and sometimes patients dead, or blowing up clinics - sometimes on the theory that destruction of property was no big deal, sometimes on the assumption that anybody who was around do be killed in the blast was a murderer anyway.
Those killers are NOT the pro-life movement; but they are a problem for the pro-life movement.
SO is the canard that 'you don't care about babies after they're born.' How many pro-lifers are involved in St Vincent dePaul, etc -- but they 'don't care' because they don't believe in the nanny state - or, they do believe in at least some gov't programs, but the accusation sounds good, so what the heck.
This is from an article on CNN.com today, profiling Scott Roeder. The full article is available here: http://tinyurl.com/p9h8nq
'Roeder, 51, is sitting in a Kansas jail, charged with murdering George Tiller, one of the few U.S. doctors who performed late-term abortion.
"He was determined that if the abortion doctor killed the baby, then he didn't have any right to live either," Roeder's ex-wife Lindsey Roeder told reporters on Monday, refusing to show her face to cameras.
Lindsey Roeder said their 10-year marriage ended 13 years ago in part because he had a fanatical preoccupation with certain views, including those on abortion.
She said her ex-husband believed killing an abortion provider "is justifiable," and described him as self-righteous and someone who may be capable of murder.'
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