What really bothers me is the "I'm much, much smarter and better read than you" stuff that comes out of them right away when they're challenged. This immediately deteriorates into "you're sick and sinful" and "I'm not going to engage with you any more."

To be fair, if I ran a blog like VN and there was a small army of regular critics who immediately contradicted me whenever I posted something, I might get a little irritable too.
Gary Keith Chesterton | 07.02.09 - 10:56 am | #

The late Mr. Jackson was certainly a talented and popular singer, and many people seem to think the world of him, but to invest the amount of time and energy extolling and then defending the King of Pop's contributions to our world in the way that is being done at Vox Nova seems misguided. I believe the prayers and work of the lowliest young trainee sister in Mother Teresa's Missionaries of Charity has had a more profound impact for good than Mr. Jackson's ouvre.

Not from man's perspective, to be sure. But from another perspective, though.
Marion (Mael Muire) | 07.02.09 - 11:22 am | #

Throughout the 1980s and early 1990s, Michael’s music inspired young people in captive nations to take chances on behalf of freedom and democracy. With his dramatic style, he electrified youth and stirred them to unite in common purpose. In response, they rallied moral forces against fear and set about to challenge the ubiquitous brutality of totalitarian regimes. The collective energy Michael and other artists inspired became a critical factor in bringing about the political collapse of the Soviet Union and its Eastern European empire. “We are the world!”

Reagan, Thatcher, and Pope John Paul II could have just relaxed and left it all up to Michael. He had matters in hand.
Michael | 07.02.09 - 11:23 am | #

God forbid that somebody might challenge the position of St. Ronald Reagan who so valiantly won the Cold War and freed the world from every kind of oppression and tyranny known to mankind. That would be the same Reagan whose major strategy was the push for an arms race (which the Church condemned again and again), pushed ahead with nuclear weapons (the use of which is pretty much always intrinsically evil), and never met a brutal dictator he couldn't support (as long as that dictator was neither communist nor being supported by the Soviet Union). St. Reagan indeed.

As for the post in hand, I'm no Jackson fan, and never have been. But this post did something that very few posts do -- caused me to think about something I'd never thought about before. Maybe there's nothing to it. Maybe there is. Maybe there should be, because we need to find ways to overcome divisions, to restore the natural unity of mankind, instead of snorting and clapping for bombs instead.

These reactions say a lot about the sad sorry state of the Catholic blogosphere. I can go to prominant "Catholic" blogs every day of the week, and see posts on the greatness of the secular state of America, why war is the answer, why global warming is a conspiracy againt our God-given right to consume as much as we want, how America is turning socialist even when it has the lowest taxes in the OECD, why neocons have always been right and will always be right, how the global financial crisis is the fault of the poor and minorities, why those silly people in the Vatican just don't understand America, why "small government" is the way go except for the military...But with these topics, nothing wrong here at all, perfectly normal stuff, all of this.
Morning's Minion | Homepage | 07.02.09 - 11:27 am | #

Deep cleansing breaths, MM. I'm not canonizing Reagan. Simply pointing out that, you know, Michael Jackson really did have less to do with ending the Cold War than Reagan, Thatcher, and John Paul.

Now: ready, aim, tu quoque! Hit me with your best shot!
Mark P. Shea | Homepage | 07.02.09 - 11:35 am | #

MM,

It's probably safe to say Reagan had a few things to do with it without the need to say Reagan was perfect in everything he did. Some actually do that you know.
Dave G. | 07.02.09 - 11:38 am | #

"That would be the same Reagan whose major strategy was the push for an arms race (which the Church condemned again and again), pushed ahead with nuclear weapons (the use of which is pretty much always intrinsically evil), and never met a brutal dictator he couldn't support (as long as that dictator was neither communist nor being supported by the Soviet Union). St. Reagan indeed."


It is useful to balance this criticism by discussing issues with those who lived behind the Iron Curtain. It is clear that tens and tens of millions lived in an oppressive environment--oppression that some US critics are too silent about--, yet in talking to people from Poland, from Estonia, from Romania, etc. one can find a deep respect of Pres. Reagan.

Yes, war and military spending seems to be an awful waste, though we are a fallen people and such is a reality in the world today. It is a bit flip (and uncharitable) to dismiss Pres. Reagan and those who admire him, and especially those you were freed because of US policies, with the "St. Reagan" retort.
dpt | 07.02.09 - 11:44 am | #

My wife moved to the US in 1999. For some background, English is her fifth language.

With the news of Michael Jackson dying, she was saddened by it. She liked some of his songs from the 1980s (10 years before she moved to the US)and and his foot work in dancing.

I did not care for MJ's music, though my wife's reaction opened my eyes to his global reach.

Oh, I went to the dentist this past Saturday, and my dentist commented: "Big new, right. Michael Jackson died. I am a fan." My dentist is from Taiwan and come to the US about 12 years ago.
dpt | 07.02.09 - 11:51 am | #

Astaire was grand, but "towers" over Jackson? Yeah, no. Not at all. Different styles of dance, but I doubt if he'd been born in 1960 Fred could have pulled off Michael's moves, while MJ could have certainly mastered Astaire's.
Dan | Homepage | 07.02.09 - 12:02 pm | #

Hello MM,

"Maybe there should be, because we need to find ways to overcome divisions, to restore the natural unity of mankind, instead of snorting and clapping for bombs instead."

It's a nice thought, but those divisions won't be overcome until the Parousia. Until then you will always have the City of Man and the City of God. "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword." Mt. 10:34.

Right and Left have always been at risk for seduction by the spirit of the former, in different ways. But reading pieces like this one on the Gloved One is a reminder of how deeply this is true of the Left, especially in regards to popular culture.
Athelstane | 07.02.09 - 12:11 pm | #

"I doubt if he'd been born in 1960 Fred could have pulled off Michael's moves..."

If you mean simulating masturbation, I doubt Fred would want to.
J Ball | 07.02.09 - 12:20 pm | #

"I doubt if he'd been born in 1960 Fred could have pulled off Michael's moves..."

If you mean simulating masturbation, I doubt Fred would want to. "

Wow. Very classy response.
Dan | Homepage | 07.02.09 - 1:07 pm | #

This is interesting, @vox nova, the OP states that this tribeu to MJ isn't supposed to lessen the influence of Reagan, Thatcher and JP2 on ending the Cold War. Rather, it's merely a supplemental story to that larger West Beats East narrative. And then MM comes along and spoils it by effectively stating that to the vox nova crowd, the tribute was in fact supposed to lessen the importance of one of the three chief architects of the conclusion of the Cold War. Magic.

I liked MJ's stuff in the 80s. Everyone did. He was the music industry's most popular product in that decade. Just because he was popular elsewhere doesn't mean his lyrics and silky dance moves somehow inspired people to demand democracy and justice. I mean, we in the West had lots of MJ, did it inspire us to defeat political Communism too?

And of course, @vox nova, the comments that are skeptical of MJ's contribution are met with derision and statements like 'You weren't there man' or 'Didn't you read xyz? No? Then f-off'.
CEK | 07.02.09 - 1:31 pm | #

Will a similar tribute be written for Madonna when she passes?
adolfo rodriguez | 07.02.09 - 1:49 pm | #

Whatever role Reagan had in ending the Cold War is a matter of debate. What is not a matter of debate is that his tactics were immoral. And that's the important issue.
Morning's Minion | Homepage | 07.02.09 - 2:24 pm | #

The whole ‘MJ could have aligned the planets’ take on things reminds me of the same thing that happened when Princess Diana died. Up to the moment she died, she was more or less tabloid fodder: who was she sleeping with, what was she wearing, where was she partying, what was the latest scandal. Only once every twenty tabloid stories was there anything about her charitable works. Then she died. That very day and beyond, I was informed that the only reason we ever cared about Diana was because she was the most charitable and compassionate person of the 20th century, quite possibly the most important person of the 20th century, and that she had been adored by billions because of her good works and caring ways.

Same thing here. Up until last week, some folks were aware he was staging a comeback in an effort to repair as much damage as possible to his reputation and finances. Most saw him as tabloid fodder, felt at best he had serious problems that led him to make disastrous decisions with his life, and felt that he had tarnished the once stellar position he enjoyed in the pop world. Now, it's all MJ the humanitarian, MJ who could have solved world peace, MJ who along with MLK brought about an end to racial divisions, and on and on and on. Same as what happened a decade ago with England’s Rose.
Dave G. | 07.02.09 - 2:34 pm | #

"Whatever role Reagan had in ending the Cold War is a matter of debate. What is not a matter of debate is that his tactics were immoral. And that's the important issue."

Any yet, JPII had no qualms working closely with him in order to defeat communism. Please cite the Papal document you are referencing when calling Reagan's tactics immoral.
adolfo rodriguez | 07.02.09 - 2:42 pm | #

"What is not a matter of debate is that his tactics were immoral."

Crotch grabbing isn't immoral? Dry humping passed off as dancing?
Tim J. | Homepage | 07.02.09 - 3:13 pm | #

"Whatever role Reagan had in ending the Cold War is a matter of debate. What is not a matter of debate is that his tactics were immoral. And that's the important issue."

Sadly, our leaders do make immoral choices in times of war, even Cold Wars. Our new president seems to be continuing along this path, that is why we need to remember our leaders in our prayers.
dpt | 07.02.09 - 4:18 pm | #

Who said anything about Ronald Reagan being a saint? Besides, how can we worry about such trivialities now when so many are shouting, 'Santo Subito'! for MJ?
Michael | 07.02.09 - 5:56 pm | #

Umm ... you mean it wasn't satire, as in The Onion? These guys were serious? Beyond embarrassing!
Patricia Gonzalez | 07.02.09 - 6:12 pm | #

Decades from now, people will look at celebrity photographs from the twentieth century and get confused over which Micheal Jackson recorded which song, and how they were all related to each other. Possibly they will conclude that Micheal Jackson was a performance act like Menudo that rotated people in and out of the central Micheal Jackson role.
Richard Bell | 07.02.09 - 6:20 pm | #

Not defending some of the sillier tributes - MJ was a performer after all - not Superman.

BUT he did have a huge impact on music.His music was the music of my childhood. I know it sounds stupid but when he died it was like -Pow! A sad reminder that those carefree days gone.

Unlike most celebrities these days he had a lot of talent. I really don't find if annoying that people are saddened by his death. People were sad when Lord Byron died and most of his poetry is mediocre.

"By a curious confusion, many modern critics have passed from the proposition that a masterpiece may be unpopular to the other proposition that unless it is unpopular it cannot be a masterpiece. " G.K Chesterton

Also politicians get a a lot of credit for what they do. Regans death was a big deal. So often people have the attitude that art doesn't matter - that science and politics and even sport is more important.

Michael Jackson might of scandalized people by grabbing his crotch but he did the world a lot less harm than many scientists and politicians.
lar | 07.02.09 - 10:33 pm | #

Quite right, Dave G. This is Princess Di all over again; people in the throes of such sentimentality lost all sanity of moral and psychological judgment and say farewell to English style. Give them a month or two and they'll reread their bilge with blushes.

Surely it is obvious that simulated masturbation was part of MJ's dancing stunts? He also had an exciting duet with Mick Jagger that seemed to me to be about fellation. I am not squeamish or censorious, but I think this sits oddly with the calls for canonization. I think MJ was a typically decadent product of pop music culture, and yet another victim of deep psychological problems, dependencies and character flaws. Just as we read the literature of decadent periods (the fin de siecle or the libertine 18th century) with prudent moral discernment, so we should keep our critical nous when faced with crazed crowds of fans signing off on their moral maturity.
Spirit of Vatican II | Homepage | 07.03.09 - 3:43 am | #

here is a mature and compassionate Catholic comment on MJ: http://enlightenedcatholicism-co...n-and- dark.html
Spirit of Vatican II | Homepage | 07.03.09 - 3:49 am | #

"Michael Jackson might of scandalized people by grabbing his crotch but he did the world a lot less harm than many scientists and politicians."

...And the mumbling homeless winos at the Port Authority Bus Station do even less harm than Michael Jackson, but that's no reason for a whole week of media retrospectives on them when they croak.
J Ball | 07.03.09 - 4:35 am | #

My wife and I don't have any misplaced adulation for Michael Jackson. In the eighties kids were bringing his records to our Catholic elementary school, and we protested loudly. From researching the guy's "art" it was easy for any follower of Christ to see that it was far more from Satan than Jesus. This was at a time when we were trying to bring up our kids to know Jesus and His Church.

Michael Jackson needed Christ--we all do. If he knew Him, it's unlikely he have acted the way he did for such a long period of time--"lewd." It's an old word, but it applies.

Our pop culture is bankrupt. MJ is proof. Put one more "J" on the front of his initials and follow that. Then we'll get healthy.

GRRR . . .
HOH | 07.03.09 - 12:50 pm | #

The Jackodolators should look honestly at the sordid aspects they want to whisk away. http://www.independent.co.uk/new...us- 1731258.html

Remember where denial got our bishops!
Spirit of Vatican II | 07.03.09 - 9:47 pm | #

Now there's Christian charity for you.

No matter what this man did or did not do, we should be praying for the souls of the departed, not mocking their lives.

I would prefer not to assume he was lying when he prefaced the Thriller video with a denunciation of the occult, or when he stated "I will never stop helping and loving people the way Jesus said to."

If he was, he has to answer to God for it, if not, I'd hate to forgo prayer and have that mark of uncharitable behavior in front of me when my sins are shown to all before the Lord.
Jarnor | 07.04.09 - 5:04 am | #

I am not mocking him, just pointing out the tragic shadows. Lots of pedophile priests have a very good side too, but people do not glorify them as MJ is being glorified. I think it would be nice if people were as understanding of them as they are of MJ, but I think the understanding must be based on a sense of reality, not on delusional denial.
Spirit of Vatican II | Homepage | 07.04.09 - 5:38 am | #

Re Christian Charity. With all due respect, this is not about passing judgment on MJ's personal culpability--it's about Satan using messed up celebrities; record companies; wimpy governments that won't encourage virtue and discourage evil by providing laws that take into account the difference between freedom and license; etc., to destroy souls.

Objection to this does not imply that the objector is forgoing prayer, it should stimulate prayer.
HOH | 07.04.09 - 7:50 am | #

In context of the 1980s, we need to keep in mind that Michael Jackson (Michael Jackson, Inc.), the performer, was a product with millions and millions in corporate punch backing him.
dannypat | 07.04.09 - 9:33 pm | #

He didn't even invent the Moonwalk:

http://www.therightperspective.o...t-the-moonwalk/
Tim | 07.04.09 - 11:46 pm | #

I heard a good sermon this morning, saying that faced with events like MJ's death we should be silent and ask what God is telling us in such events. The preacher held that the razzmatazz cheapened MJ in death. On one hand, I cannot help thinking that MJ would be delighted to create such a sensation ('good career move'); on the other, the MJ tragedy is replicated in a thousand lives, not only in Hollywood, so it is hardly necessary to seek in it a mystic epiphany.

I think his troubles with kids killed him in the sense that his drug dependencies became very grave after the traumatic public proceedings. The trauma was that someone who very much needed to be loved and admired was identified as the most hated scapegoat in our society: the pedophile.

Art and morality (or character) are not easily separable. Pasolini's "Gospel of St Matthew" is a classic film, but I admit that it loses much of its power for me because I recall the later sleazy offerings of the same director. Wagner's music is intoxicating, yet one has constantly to make allowances for the thumbprints of his nasty side that are all over it -- especially the vicious antisemitism (he urged somewhere that the German people should have the heroism to trample on scruple and exterminate the Jews) that leaves its mark on the characters and music of Beckmesser in Die Meistersinger and the Untermenschen like Alberich and Mime in the Ring Cycle; and the false religiosity of Parsifal doubles one's qualms about earlier works such as the Flying Dutchman and Tristan with their pseudo-Buddhist yearning for extinction; in the end one is left with Lohengrin.

Precisely because of the power of artists we need to be on the alert in dealing with them, just as we are with great but sometimes sinister thinkers such as Nietzsche, Heidegger, Marx, Freud (sorry, only German names come to mind). The highbrow arts are surrounded by critical discourse that encourages such moral discernment. The world of pop seems to go scotfree even though it is rife with appeals to animal passion and even incitements to violence.
Spirit of Vatican II | Homepage | 07.05.09 - 2:08 am | #

Culture trumps politics.

One Michael Jackson is worth a million politicians, even if they're all Reagan.

Or else we're are already in hell.
phosphorious | 07.07.09 - 1:57 pm | #

I also wrote a piece on MJ at VN, lest this be the only thing VN had to say on the matter: http://vox-nova.com/2009/07/11/a...on-means-to-me/
Anonymous | 07.14.09 - 8:13 pm | #

Sorry, anonymous was me, Sam.
Samuel Rocha | Homepage | 07.14.09 - 8:14 pm | #