I can't help but feel that God maybe has a plan for these little flowers, however foolish they may seem by some standards.
Paula Ruth McIntyre Robinson | 11.19.02 - 2:44 pm | #

Mark,

I think you unfairly smear the Remnant newspaper by what I take to be your implication that this sedevacantist group is typical of Remnant readership. Yet, I wouldn't necessarily limit the "beautiful souls" of those in these sedevacantist groups only to those who had the misfortune to be born into them. I think Catholics were and are drawn to these groups because their shepherds and pastors have abandoned Catholic tradition and these people can sense that something is awry in the Church. Left on their own, alas, it should not be surprising that they should fall into some profound errors. Yet, I would hazard to guess that the group in the article had more female religious vocations than any religious order in any of the several dioceses in which they resided over the years. Perhaps diocesan vocations offices should take notice.
Bill | 11.19.02 - 2:55 pm | #

I wasn't talking about the Remnant per se (though I do think they are a nasty bunch of people). I was using "remnant" in the biblical/Protestant sense of "sectarians certain they have the Truth". There's always something noble and attractive about sectarians. But at the end of the day, they are wrong and more devoted to faction and pride than to love.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 11.19.02 - 3:35 pm | #

This sad story looks like an extreme example of the Mercedes Effect being debated on the blogsphere a short while ago.
Thereare accounts of more such groups in THE SMOKE OF SATAN by Michael Cuneo.
Sandra Miesel | 11.19.02 - 3:52 pm | #

Mark is right. Some of these "Tridentines" are really beautiful souls. I count a former SSPXer as a good freind. I can't understand why any bishop wouldn't grant an indult to celebrate to old Mass. The indult parish where I live truly is a source of vocations and a wonderful and holy community.
ben | 11.19.02 - 6:56 pm | #

I can understand it. Indults are frequently an invitation to embittered nuclei of malcontents to form "diocese within a diocese" sects or even "parish within a parish" sects. It's happened at my own parish in the past. I can fully understand why a bishop would be cautious. Some Trads are nice people. A disproportionate number of them are very nasty pieces of work indeed.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 11.19.02 - 7:10 pm | #

The people featured in this article are considered strange by other Trads. What is it with Washington State and strange RadTrad groups, anyway? Schuckhardt's group, the CMRI, and Pulvermacher.....
Dave Pawlak | Homepage | 11.19.02 - 7:21 pm | #

There's an interesting semantic observation to make on stories of this crime and other stories of these sedevacanist groups -- more and more they are being called "orthodox" or "Orthodox" as opposed to "Roman" as the word next to "Catholic". I assume that is self-identification as opposed to the deliberate intent of the reporters.

Patrick Sweeney | 11.19.02 - 9:42 pm | #

Washington State (Seattle) was host to a lovely bishop (Hunthausen sp?) some years back who made some feel the urge to violently oppose his less than admirable spirituality...that's what's up in Washington.

I agree with Mark. As sad as it is, my experience in the Arlington diocese has been that the "Trad"s make me remember "The Violent Bear It Away" by Flannery O'Connor far more than they evoke The Little Flower. No one is ever Catholic enough for them, and unwittingly, they tend to have a deleterious effect on those who are already predisposed to clinical depression and similar problems.
Kristen | 11.19.02 - 10:18 pm | #

Mark, it would be nice if you would articulate what you mean by the use of the descriptive label, "nasty", referring to some trads.

This is a serious request, and not a cynical, sarcastic, or ironic comment, which I've abandoned.

Attending Tridentine indult Mass now for several years on a weekly and holy day basis, I find myself emersed in a colorful array of opinions, all of which are right at the expense of other opinions.

This is difficult for my mind to deal with, since I was raised in an airplane factory (so to speak), and see everything as all fitting together according to the laws of natural science.

So, what you are getting at by calling some of the trad folk, "nasty", piques my interest, as I think it might help explain matters to me. I am a convert to the Catholic faith of over two decades. I certainly witness some of the entrenched almost sedavacantist attitude, the lack of and even intentional obviation of social development, and more. But I don't find the N.O. rite very accepting of my own needs for worshiping at Mass -- the rite itself I have no heavy issue with, but the elbow to elbow schmoozingness and giddy music. To me it is the time for a contemplative act of worship. The coffee and donuts I welcome after Mass; the absurd snippets of conversational greetings before Mass I am guilty of. But part of the Mass is going up to the Cross, and when the congregation prefers to make a picnic of it, then I wander away for something more profound. This led me to find the Latin Mass whose structure disallows a lot of the "socializing" dimension of the dispensation of God to His faithful, in the individual, one on one melieu.

BTW: I recall some rather nasty characters at Novus Ordo Masses. I will give you my explanation of "nasty" if you give me yours. Not that I demand it immediately, or even demand it at all. (Yes, I've read the various popular writers/speakers on the rite controversy, and so don't relish some referral to a book.)
John L. Sillasen | 11.19.02 - 10:36 pm | #

March 21, 2002 ???

Sorry to show up here after 11 comments but as I live in New York, let me tell you things have moved along in the 8 months since this was a "recent" headline.

To read the legislative text:
New York State Legislature
and enter S6625

I don't see a slippery slope as far as the seal of the confessional is concerned. I know of no cases of clerical sexual abuse where it was not reported because the only way that one learned of it was in a the sacrament of reconciliation. Of there are anti-Catholic bigots out there who will use any stick to beat the Church, but such is not the case with this "mandated reporter" legislation.




Patrick Sweeney | 11.19.02 - 10:50 pm | #

Nasty means nasty. As in insulting the Mass, juvenile, harrassing, abusive, intimidating, physically threatening, shouting people down, sneering, spreading ugly rumors, vilifying, telling lies, and even issuing death threats. All of these are things I have either personally witnessed or had friends suffer at the hands of Trads in my parish or UltraTrads in the SSPX. Leftist dissenters, for all their faults, tend to be squishy and non-threatening. For sheer viciousness, Trads are the source, in my experience. Not all Trads, mind you. Indeed, not even most. But I've never experienced such concentrated malice in a parish setting as from supposedly "Traditional" Catholics who are absolutely obsessed with lacunae of ritual and utterly uninterested in the weightier matters of the law such as charity, justice, and mercy. They have more to answer for, in my book, than ignorant lefties because they should know better.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 11.19.02 - 10:54 pm | #

Mark, I'm really disappointed to hear that you "understand" (agree with?) a bishop being hesitant to grant permission for an indult Mass. The Pope has decreed in his motu proprio Ecclesia Dei that "respect" should be shown for the "rightful aspirations" of those who want the traditional Mass. Yet, you imply they should be denied access to this Mass? On what basis? Because the Mass may become a magnet for those who seek a reverent Mass? Maybe if it weren't so closely rationed and folks didn't have to travel from all over a particular region for a single Sunday Mass at one church at 2:30 in the afternoon, the indult Mass would be less of a magnet and these louts could be dispersed.

I suppose that after begging for their birthright for years from bishops whose derilection of duty was manifest long before 2002 a few of these Catholics may have become embittered and "nasty". But I highly doubt that those who are shouting people down, issuing death threats, etc. (if they exist at all) are numerically significant. Those who want an indult Mass aren't sedevacantists or even members of the SSPX. These are indisputably loyal and faithful Catholics and, as per the Holy Father, ought not to be treated as if they were not. Never mind the epithets (Trad and UltraTrad?), to accuse them of being insufficiently concerned about charity, justice and mercy and thereby undeserving of a Latin Mass, is outrageous. Maybe it's just that you are reaping what you sow in your dealings with these lowly "Trads."

Bill | 11.19.02 - 11:39 pm | #

I didn't say the indult shouldn't be granted. I said I can understand caution in doing so. As to thinking Trads "lowly" I do no such thing. I can, however, attest to watching Trads treat their fellow Catholics with utter contempt.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 11.19.02 - 11:44 pm | #

Sheesh!

Third times the charm. I'm not against the Latin Mass being celebrated. I'm simply saying that I can understand the caution a pastor would have, given the wretched experience my own parish has had with boorish Trad bullies, sectarians and rudesbys treating the rest of us like shit and acting with obvious contempt for the Church and its members. Trads need to work on their people skills.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 11.20.02 - 1:24 am | #

Just once in my life, I would love to see a Paul IV High Mass celebrated in the original Latin, entirely chanted and the songs all Sacred Polyphony. With the priest ad orientem, too.

The Paul IV liturgy is usually celebrated as a mediocre affair; I've occasionally seen it at its worst with sappy music and innovations galore, and I've occasionally seen it done reverently and beautifully. But, just once, I wish I could see it in all its intended glory!

(I've been to a Paul IV Mass in Latin once; it was lovely and reverent though it was not a High Mass.)

As for the Indult Mass, I've been to about seven of them in my lifetime, but they were not solemn High Masses. The priest basically muttered his way through the Liturgy very quickly; I tried to pray along with my old missal but I can't even pray that fast in English, let alone Latin!

In contrast, I once attended a Coptic Catholic Divine Liturgy celebrated by Patriarch Stephanos II; he sang *every word* of the Liturgy (which was in Arabic and Coptic) with great solemnity and reverence, as if it were something truly sacred and awesome. (This was an Eastern Rite Catholic Liturgy, not Coptic Orthodox).

The Tridentine Rite is beautiful on paper, and I'm sure it can be lovely in practice too, but that's not how they did it when I attended. I guess I'd also love to attend a traditional High Mass, entirely chanted, with Sacred Polyphony; I'm sure that's wonderful as well.

My husband is reading a book about a Catholic priest from the US who spent a year in a Coptic Orthodox monastery in Egypt. He had to celebrate his own Masses privately while there, since he could not receive Communion with them. One day, a group of monks asked to witness the Mass he usually performed privately; they wanted to see what a Catholic Mass was like.

Knowing that those monks were used to very long liturgies (about three hours), the priest extended that Paul VI Mass as long as he could. He chanted the whole thing, used incense, added in the whole Sequence for Pentecost (I don't think this Mass was on Pentecost!) chanted the Salve Regina after Communion, etc.. He extended the Paul VI Mass as long as he possibly could - to an hour and a half! When he finally finished, the monks thanked him graciously, but one of them said, "It was very beautiful, but just as I was getting into the worship, it was over. What a short Mass you have in the West!"

Rosemarie | 11.20.02 - 9:14 am | #

Excuse my dislexia; I meant Paul *VI** Mass above, of course. Sometimes I got it right and sometimes I reversed it.
Rosemarie | 11.20.02 - 9:18 am | #

Mark,

I think it is the tight rationing of access to our liturical heritage that may go a long way to explaining any boorishness you've encountered. However, ultimately, I think the point is irrelevant.

Let's face it, the the traditional Mass, the most treasured form of prayer of the Church from the time of Gregory the Great and before, has been made by bishops and others to seem illicit, when all manner of liturical abuse was and is openly tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged. Priests who refused to partake in liturical abuses over the years, priests who understood that a corrosion of the lturgy would result in a corrosion of belief, were treated the same way that Fr. Haley is being treated now in Arlington in a different context, although traditional priests had fewer, if any, allies. As for the laity, they were largely marginalized and abandoned.

So maybe years of injustice impacted negatively on certain of these Catholics' "people skills." Maybe it would be wise for them now to hire an image consultant to make the Latin Mass and the Catholic faith less threatening to bishops and pastors. However, such points are completely irrelevant to the issue of the injustice of the continued refusal of bishops to make adequate provision for those Faithful who desire a Latin Mass. Any perceived personality defect in those who request the Latin Mass does not mitigate the injustice of denying it to them.

Bill | 11.20.02 - 9:26 am | #

Speaking of Mr. Shea's parish, I attended the Dominican Rite mass celebrated by Fr. Fulton, OP, at Blessed Sacrament Parish, and must have missed out on all these legendary horrors. A lot of young families with their children getting up for a Mass that had relegated to 6AM, scary... Perhaps Mr. Shea could enlighten me privately as to the precise nature of his concerns in this context.
Breier Scheetz | 11.20.02 - 9:55 am | #

The Latin Mass is not permitted in the diocese of Lafayette-in-Indiana. I say "Latin Mass" because we can have neither the Tridentine or Latin Novus Ordo.(I think an exception was made for a popular historical reinactment of French fur trapper times.) Anyway, Bishop Higi doesn't like Latin. ANYWHERE. He also wants to forbid us to pray after receiving Communion. This shows his vigilance against RadTrads, you see.
Sandra Miesel | 11.20.02 - 9:56 am | #

Bill's point is well taken. Mr. Shea's argument is not specific to the Latin Mass, it could equally be applied to any gathering of orthodox Catholics, which inevitably draws the scattered pharisaical chaff as well as the wholesome wheat. However, it is my experience that it is honest seekers of the traditional liturgy who are trampled underfoot. Who has the power here, the anonymous ranting old man, or the pastors and chancercies who keep the strangehold which fuels the fire of such discontent? To claim that miniscule number of crazy "trads," vitiates the honest aspirations of the laity for the Latin Mass, seems no more fair than to claim that the average Novus Ordo parish should be approached with caution, because one can inevitably find some measure of dissent, heterodoxy, and false catechsesis within its sacred presincts.

I understand having a bad experience with crotchety old die-hards, but for the rising generation of young orthodox Catholics, born after the Council, who are turning on their own to the liturgy of their forefathers, this argument is seeming tired and worn out.

On an interesting note, I've heard the same argument used against saying a rosary in Church, and other private devotions. Woudn't want to attract those radicals who practice Marian devotion.

If you make something absurdly difficult, it will draw more of those people seeking Remnant "purity." The answer is not to shun Catholic liturgical tradition, but instead to make it broadly and diversely available to those who desire it, as the Holy Father has requested.

Really, does Mr. Shea think the traditional Latin Mass produces these bad "Trads" he deplores? Or is he instead claiming that it just attracts them? If the latter, banning the Latin Mass will just send them back to be uncharitable to their home parishes. Further, it should be noted that the really bad "trads" reject the Indult Mass to begin with. There are plenty of non-Indult Latin Masses where the wild-ones might be found, and even there I think there is more misguided sincerity than prideful malice.

So for those of us who seek the peace of our traditional liturgy, just as the Eastern rite enjoys theirs, in union with the Holy Father and our local bishop, I hope we be afforded a greater measure of charity greater than that reserved for the monsters that Mr. Shea justly abhors.


Breier Scheetz | Homepage | 11.20.02 - 12:31 pm | #

Geoff,

The Pope did not make the distinction you asked about. Here is the passage from the relevant document:

"To all those Catholic faithful who feel attached to some previous liturgical and disciplinary forms of the Latin tradition I wish to manifest my will to facilitate their ecclesial communion by means of the necessary measures to guarantee respect for their rightful aspirations. In this matter I ask for the support of the bishops and of all those engaged in the pastoral ministry in the Church."

The entire document is available at
http://www.vatican.va/holy_fathe...sia- dei_en.html

Bill | 11.20.02 - 1:21 pm | #

But what does he mean by "rightful aspirations"? Is that a blanket endorsement of anyone who wants the Tridentine rite for any reason?
Geoff Horton | 11.20.02 - 2:11 pm | #

Geoff,

As I read it, the Pope is saying that it is a "rightful aspiration" to want to have access to "some previous liturgical and disciplinary forms of the Latin tradition." To me, this means "aspiring" to avail oneself of these things for their ordinary, intended purposes -- worshipping God, deepening faith, forming the young, receiving grace, etc. I suppose it would preclude wanting access to a Traditional Mass in order to perform a sacrilegious Black Mass or something similar. I don't know what other illegitimate reason you may think could be applicable.

Bill | 11.20.02 - 3:17 pm | #

Gettlefinger and now Higi. Boy, Indiana's just chock full of episcopal brilliance. My sympathies.
Dale Price | Homepage | 11.20.02 - 10:00 pm | #

No Latin in Lafayette? He's violating Canon Law, then. Then again, he probably knows it, and doesn't care.
Dave Pawlak | Homepage | 11.21.02 - 12:48 am | #

A question on the phrase "rightful aspirations":

Does this mean that any aspiration towards the Tridentine rite is rightful? Or is it meant to distinguish an appropriate desire for the Tridentine right from inappropriate ones? If the latter, could a bishop not decide that granting permission would do more to encourage the wrong aspirations?
Geoff Horton | 11.21.02 - 1:02 am | #

An unrightful aspiration would include wanting the Tridentine Rite as a symbol or stalking horse for the various forms of "conservative" dissent from the Magisterium.
Geoff Horton | 11.21.02 - 9:11 am | #

Geoff,

First, I think that only a tortured reading of the document could tease out a distiction between types of "aspirations" (rightful and un-rightful) for access to the Latin Mass. The Pope was not talking about motive, but rather about the "previous liturgical and disciplinary forms" themselves and that it is "rightful" for someone to want them.

Second, the distinction you're drawing doesn't make a lot of sense. Using the Mass as a stalking horse for dissent from the magisterium? What dissent are you talking about and how would the Mass serve some nefarious end in this regard? I don't get it.

Do you mean something like the Assisi ecumenical gathering last January (which didn't implicate the Magisterium)? To the extent someone thought Assisi was a mistake, is it somehow wrong for him to aspire to go to a Latin Mass to pray that the gathering doesn't occur or doesn't occur again? How would access to the Latin Mass impact on that person's "dissent" on way or the other?

Bill | 11.21.02 - 11:16 am | #