"Israeli female soldiers in bikinis."

Reminds me of a different but related problem. The Israelis should be encouraging Palestinian suicide-bombers to wear skimpy clothing - while leaving their own soldiers in body armor and helmets.

More importantly, why did they have to drag Mary into this? (She is, after all, a virgin, and Jewish.)

Histor
Histor | Homepage | 10.18.07 - 10:42 am | #

Despicable.
Sean P. Dailey | Homepage | 10.18.07 - 10:58 am | #

Every day it gets a little harder to decide whom to root for in World War III. Good thing there's still time to figure it out while we're buying our snacks and finding our seats.

.
Screaming Dustbuster | 10.18.07 - 11:15 am | #

This is the sort of thing that makes me wonder how long American Evangelicals (and even some Catholics) can be snookered by the notion that Israel is something other than a secular nation-state

Right! Because if the Hebrews were really the Chosen People and Israel really was the Promised Land given to them by the Lord, then they couldn't possibly disobey God!
K the C | 10.18.07 - 11:43 am | #

How shocked I was as a Protestant missionary in Israel in the mid-70's to learn that Israel was the home to several nude beaches. Also lots of nudity in Israeli TV ads.
William | 10.18.07 - 11:46 am | #

K the C, you really do not know how American evangelicals view Israel, do you.
Sean P. Dailey | Homepage | 10.18.07 - 12:11 pm | #

Sean, the way that Evangelicals view Israel is a completely separate issue from whether or not Israel is more than just another modern secular state.

(Personally, I think the latter issue is an open question, but I don't believe that it's either necessary or wise to try to answer it prematurely or to involve that issue in the moral and political discussions.)
Atlantic | 10.18.07 - 12:25 pm | #

"Every day it gets a little harder to decide whom to root for in World War III. Good thing there's still time to figure it out while we're buying our snacks and finding our seats."

Satire aside, a certain misconception here?
Pavel Chichikov | Homepage | 10.18.07 - 12:40 pm | #

Satire aside, a certain misconception here?

Or misperception, perhaps. Here's the title bout on the WW3 fight card: The Free But Paganized, Debauched & Baby-Killing West vs. The Unfree but God-Fearing, Virtue-Obsessed & Baby-Protecting Islamosphere. (As it is now, the Church certainly has more of an ally in Muslims at the United Nations, for example, than it does in the Eurocrats.)

Satire, yes. But a question worth a thought, too, I think. Especially since WWIII now seems inevitable if not immanent. Israel will be going into Iran with or without us. If they go while Bush and Cheney are still at the helm of the SS America, it will be a definite with. If later, all bets are off. Either way, that mother of a fight will surely give birth to a much wider cluster of conflicts. In a word, WWIII.

.
Screaming Dustbuster | 10.18.07 - 2:32 pm | #

So glad to see you pointing out the secular nature of Israel. Some Christians, Catholics included, are really spooky on this issue.
Suibhne | 10.18.07 - 2:56 pm | #

I can see if they were trying to tempt guys to call some 1-900 chatline, but what is the Israeli government really trying to accomplish with this ad?

Are they trying to make sure that no women join the military because they'll try to turn them into bikini models? Or are they trying to enlist men who are so stupid that they think all Israeli women soldiers go around dressed like that?
Judith M. | 10.18.07 - 4:17 pm | #

Hosea's prophecies, wherein Yahweh castigates Israel for her harlotry, take on a whole new meaning . . .
Eric G. | 10.18.07 - 5:43 pm | #

Oh I'm so shocked! Those images! Oh, no really. Shocking. Just shocky-shocky shocked!

Really.
lumberjack | Homepage | 10.18.07 - 8:14 pm | #

Israel is a secular state? Great!

I am Catholic and I would not want to live in a theocratic state. In fact, I argue that religion is string in the United States and not elsewhere in the West BECAUSE we are and always were a secular state.
Anthony Calabrese | Homepage | 10.18.07 - 8:22 pm | #

Congratulations, Mark. You're being attacked for this post by the warmongers at National Review Online.
Tom Piatak | 10.18.07 - 8:28 pm | #

Anthony:

I think there needs to be a healthy mean between secularism and theocracy, no?

Remember that the "Christian secularism" of our Founding Fathers was nothing like the secularism the ACLU would impose (and are imposing) on our nation.
Eric G. | 10.18.07 - 8:30 pm | #

If you ran Israel it would be different but, you don't.

If you ran America it would be different but, you don't.

To me that looks like a win-win.
Tia | 10.18.07 - 8:53 pm | #

"You're being attacked for this post by the warmongers at National Review Online."

Not to mention Instapundit (indirectly). Who knew that deploring showing pretty girls in bikinis could get you so many links? No doubt the Amish are shocked, shocked! Well, they would be if they had computers.
Bruce Rheinstein | 10.18.07 - 9:10 pm | #

Yeah, well, Israel is a modern democracy, which is enough for this evangelical. No doubt some gloomy priest-ridden theocracy, a la Ireland in 1940 or most Muslim countries today, would be more to your taste. You're welcome to move, dude.
y81 | 10.18.07 - 9:21 pm | #

Oh, great! Another prissy blog. Mark, why don't you go take a valium. Or a cold shower.
Jack Okie | 10.18.07 - 9:22 pm | #

I was so shocked I watched it again, just to be sure.
But.... maybe one more time.

How are you holding up to this warmonger attack? If it makes you feel any better, we're ashamed of ourselves. (and shocked!)
lumberjack | Homepage | 10.18.07 - 9:25 pm | #

Women of the Israeli Army.

I was talking to an Israeli friend today and he told me his daughter (age 19 or 20) was in the Israeli Army.

He said she teaches US Marines how to be snipers. Sounds like a twofer to me.

Nice picture of Israeli Women With Assault Rifles.

I love pictures of women packing heat.
M. Simon | Homepage | 10.18.07 - 9:33 pm | #

Shocked! Shocked I say! Shocked!

No, they're not attacking you at NRO. They're laughing at you at NRO.
section9 | 10.18.07 - 9:34 pm | #

Noticed this at National Review.

As Israel is far more the victim of a traditional jihad than the preventers of a national home for the "Palestinians" (that is, for the Sunni Arabs who in large measure moved to the area because of the prosperity provided by infidel culture), two questions arise. Should America be in the fight? Am not 100% sure. Should Americans -- children of the Enlightenment and therefore the natural enemies of sharia -- have empathy for Israel in her fight with the historical aggressors? Absolutely. We want her to win, even if we're on the sidelines.

Israel is an unlikely state, here against the odds; and is here when an imperialist Islam is resurgent. Can you be 100% sure that Israel is not a fulfillment of prophecy?

Here's the National Review link, which needs to be on one line:

http:// corner.nationalreview.com...TVhZjgyMzUwMzE=
myself | 10.18.07 - 9:41 pm | #

You are reading way too much into this ad campaign. Shocked is right they are laughing at you NRO.
MJ | 10.18.07 - 9:47 pm | #

Lighten up guys. Would you rather see the attractive Israeli women in Burkas? I wouldn't.
Richard Disney | Homepage | 10.18.07 - 10:23 pm | #

Yes, obviously the only alternative to approving of this crass and irreverent display is to desire that all Israel women be forced to wear burkas. There is absolutely no middle ground between libertinism and sharia.

False dilemma? What's a false dilemma?

What do they teach them in these schools?
brendon | 10.18.07 - 11:05 pm | #

You really don't understand Americans at all, do you?
Rip | 10.18.07 - 11:21 pm | #

National Review is a sad shadow of its former self. There was a time when a sacrilegious comment about the Blessed Virgin Mary such as the one Mark Shea writes about would have been met with disapproval. But no more. All National Review now cares about is promoting war in the Middle East, and everything else--including reverence for the Mother of God--takes second place.
Tom Piatak | 10.18.07 - 11:43 pm | #

I think NRO is most concerned with watching women scamper around in bikinis while certain thoughts condemed explicitly by You-Know-Who form in their heads.

Blasphemy and Middle Eastern wars take second place to that.

Histor

P.S. Yes, I'm a prude. So what?
Histor | Homepage | 10.18.07 - 11:54 pm | #

"one commercial has two men on the beach exclaiming, 'Holy Mother of God,'"

Blasphemers! Burn them!

"crass and irreverent display"

They are attractive women wearing bikinis. On a Beach. In the sun. What are they supposed to wear? Have you been to the beach recently?
Anonymous | 10.18.07 - 11:57 pm | #

Well, well. Anti-Semitism among the anti-Iraq war crowd? Oh, wait, so unsophisticated of me. Anti-Zionism, right? You know, a strangely morbid fixation on Israel that causes certain individuals of a predictable ideological ilk to pathologically obsess over every nitpicking fault their grubby little minds can ostensibly uncover which despite the curious double standard this seemingly creates should still in no way, shape or form be construed as a special enmity towards Jews. I guess framed in those terms it all makes perfect sense. Mr. Shea, you are a small-minded, bigoted imbecile.
Ian | 10.19.07 - 12:03 am | #

NRO really has a lovely readership, doesn't it?
Anonymous | 10.19.07 - 12:13 am | #

If you mean a readership that isn't offended by attractive women wearing bikinis on a beach, then yes.
Bruce Rheinstein | 10.19.07 - 12:31 am | #

The question is: What kind of men does Israel want to attract with these ads?

The answer is that these ads have no interest in attracting men. They are targeted at 20 and 30 year olds who have never gotten over adolescents.

A man may glance appreciatively at a beautiful woman. He may even do a double take when he is surprised by how beautiful a woman is. A man does not gape at a woman slack-jawed and drooling. He does not yell crude comments and blasphemies when a beautiful woman walks towards him. He does not buy some rag so that he can leer at women between sniggering at dirty jokes and finding the best spots to "hook up". A man does his best to act with with self control and propriety, and he has a sense of shame that lets him know when he has acted in a way that is unbecoming.

These ads do not target the best of Israeli manhood and try to show them why they should love their country and be willing to protect it. These ads do not show foreigners the beauty, the glory, the history that Israel possesses in an attempt to make them realize why Israel should be defended. These ads target little boys with the promise that if they come to Israel they can "get laid". That is an insult to men, to women and to Israel.

But why should one expect a democracy to try to recruit some kind of "aristocracy of virtue"? That idea sounds positively undemocratic, if not un-American. After all, what did Thomas Jefferson know?
brendon | 10.19.07 - 12:31 am | #

Instapundit noticed:

ANYONE WHO THINKS THAT THIS VIDEO is going to hurt Israel's image is, well, crazy.
Greg | 10.19.07 - 12:38 am | #

old news
Israel's sex trade is booming
http://www.ynetnews.com/ articles...3062297,00.html
mona | 10.19.07 - 12:51 am | #

I notice that Mark has now declared himself an expert on what "pieties" I myself do or do not observe. I hope readers will not be shocked that I know a little bit more about my own prayer life than he does, and that he has gotten it wrong. I don't think it would be seemly for me to discuss this here in any detail, beyond saying that I think devotion to the Mother of God is a very helpful and positive type of prayer, and more Evangelicals ahould give such practices--especially the Rosary--a chance. (I have written about this in National Review.)

Believe me, if I thought the actual Mother of God herself were offended by such things as the exclamation in the video, I would not be taking the position I do. My own suspicion is that she views it with the same amusement with which the Lord views the old Englishman who blurts out, "By Jove!" (As if to prove my point, you will notice that Mark had to drop a gratuitous f-bomb right in the middle of Jesus's name to try to boost the shock value. There is, of course, no f-bomb in the Israeli commercial.)

And as to Mark's "who-me?" denial that he was trying to drive a wedge between Evangelicals and Israel, all you need to do is examine his original post. To say Evangelicals have been "snookered" by a country that claims "special privileges"--I have no idea what "special privileges" Mark's talking about; perhaps he means survival--is to say that their support for Israel is based on a delusion. It's like whispering to a guy, "You know, your wife's cheating on you," and then affecting surprise when the guy gets angry with her.

Finally, I claim no special knowledge on the issue of whether or to what extent the current state of Israel is related to the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. But Mark has great confidence that today's Israel cannot possibly have *anything* to do with the fulfillment of those prophecies, because some Israelis and some American supporters of Israel don't rise to his desired level of moral purity. In this, I cannot help hearing an echo of those who said, This guy can't be the Messiah, look at the riff-raff he hangs around with.

The Lord works in mysterious ways, and with flawed people. It's not the way I would do it, if I were God; thank God I'm not.
Mike Potemra | 10.19.07 - 2:29 am | #

...I think devotion to the Mother of God is a very helpful and positive type of prayer, and more Evangelicals ahould give such practices--especially the Rosary--a chance.

I agree absolutely.

(Moreover, devotion to the Mother of God can help lead to a right understanding of the relationship between Judaism and Christianity -- and, I suppose, by extension, to a right understanding of the modern nation of Israel vis a vis Divine Revelation.)
Tom | Homepage | 10.19.07 - 8:36 am | #

Hm.

Double Hm.

What is shocking to me, more than the video is the reaction, both by Conservatives of the other blogs, and some in this thread.

What it seems I'm reading (these are not direct quotes, but impressions from what I've seen) is:
"Girls jiggling around seductively in bikinis isn't that bad - it could be worse...."

"Guys making offending statements isn't that bad - it could be worse..."

"A state that promotes sex and persecutes Christians - let's call it a "Holy Land" as a "joke", but treat it as a single minded end to foreign policy as if we really believe it's a sacred state..."

"How dare you say that I think the state is important to prophecy - and how do you know it's NOT important to prophecy...."

Mark, I'm with you on this one 100%. I guess I'm a prude. And maybe an anti-Semite. But don't call me a "Anti Iraq War blogger".
mike the analyst | 10.19.07 - 9:44 am | #

Mr. Poterma,
I'm sure I agree with you on a number of issues - however I'm willing to bet dollars-to-donuts that Mark Shea (former Evangelical) has a better understanding of your beliefs than YOU can predict how the Blessed Virgin Mary would react to a statement.

Just sayin'
mike the analyst | 10.19.07 - 9:47 am | #

I see that two of my comments have been deleted.

Especially the one explaining what "the Chosen" people bit.

I expect this one will not last either.
M. Simon | Homepage | 10.19.07 - 9:48 am | #

When NRO is not covering-up Israel's act of war against these United States..

Israeli air and naval forces attack USS Liberty during the Six-Day War. The attack, though officially an accident, killed 34 Americans, 1967.

http://tank.nationalreview.com/ p...YjA4Y2EzNzMzOWM

It is cheerleading the State of Israel's Babes Watch.

Other than that, NRO is fine.

Oh, did they provide coverage of the most recent revelations re Israel and their attack on the USS Liberty?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/ se...0,1050179.story


Dunno. I'd guess prolly not. When it comes to The USS Liberty and Liberty of citisens vis a vis the Gov't, the NRO are wimpy collectivists.

Back when Mr. Buckley started the mag, he was at least a masculine collectivist.

NRO hasn't fallen. It has risen to an air-headed lightness reduced to barking for Empire and ogling chicks.
I'm not Spartacus | 10.19.07 - 10:04 am | #

Has anyone here seen the full ad...not just the clip above?

In addition to the woman prompting the "Holy Mother of God" comment, other women prompt "Holy [f-bomb expletive]" "Holy sh*t, and "Holy Jesus!" comments.

An Indian at the end pops up to say "Holy Cow!"

Whether or not one is personally offended by the ads, they are clearly designed to mock the devout — as a kind of wink to the nonreligious that Israel isn't just for the holy rollers who are seen as the usual tourists.

I am curious as to why Israel is willing to risk offending religious pilgrims as part of its marketing to the nonreligious.
Rick | 10.19.07 - 10:12 am | #

In other words: I wonder if Israel is finding that religious tourists tend to become critics and Palestinian supporters (traveling the route that blog commentator William has)...and so wants to actively discourage pilgrims in favor of nonreligious tourists.
Rick | 10.19.07 - 10:17 am | #

I doubt it is that thought out. They are just appealing to the ones who might not otherwise visit. Religious tourists will be there every year. It's those darn non-religious tourists who have little reason to travel there where the fighting is. My guess is it's trying to appeal to that segement of the population, while betting the farm that religious pilgrims will still keep coming no matter what.
Dave G. | 10.19.07 - 10:22 am | #

Dave G,

Maybe. But to me the religious mocking in the ad is deliberate and gratutious — designed not only to draw partiers, but perhaps to push pilgrims away.
Rick | 10.19.07 - 10:30 am | #

Consider: The two commentators I've seen on this blog who actually talk about time spent in Israel are both devout Catholics, highly critical of Israeli policy, and actively working to realign US policy to one that is more favorable to the Palestinians.

I don't know how representative they are of pilgrims generally. But if their evolution is not exceptional, maybe the Israeli tourist agency has decided they'd rather reach out to Joe Sixpack — and take back the welcome mat for Joe Catholic.
Rick | 10.19.07 - 10:36 am | #

Whoa, some of you really need to get a life, an appreciation of beauty, and a sense of humor.
JonathanInTelAviv | 10.19.07 - 10:47 am | #

As far as the tourism industry goes, I doubt they care. They sure aren't going to push people away over issues. A religious pilgrim's money is as good as a non-pilgrim's money. Nope. I doubt it is that. I would have to have evidence of some massive anti-religious people who disagree with Isreal's policies to believe the commercials are trying to push them away. My thinking is, it's just like many companies. Change to try to appeal to a broader market, and bet everything that loyal customers will keep coming back no matter what.
Dave G. | 10.19.07 - 10:55 am | #

The Ad just goes to prove that all Israeli women soldiers are white. (Who are the antisemites?)

http://newvoices.org/content/view/652/1/

It's interesting that even Israel won't permit Mothers to be soldiers unlike like our Govt which has Mom Soldiers and young women dying in combat.

The last I knew 86 women had died in the war zones of Afghanistan and Iraq. Some were Mothers of children as young as three and four years old. They prolly weren't beautiful bikini-wearing models though, so, who cares?

The relationship twixt Israel and America seems to me an awful lot like

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fol...lie_%C3% A0_deux

Put your soldiers in bikinis. Have the State sexualise them. Make your women sex objects, then, when the plain looking women are dying in Iraq nobody will care - or even notice.

Both Govts are execrable
I'm not Spartacus | 10.19.07 - 11:00 am | #

The Palestinians who hang gays in the public square want Palestine from the river to the sea. Nothing wrong with that.

Walter Durranty had a lot of nice things to say about the Soviet Union. The credulous will always be with us.
M. Simon | Homepage | 10.19.07 - 11:12 am | #

"the plain looking women are dying in Iraq"

Do you have proof of this, or are you just trying to make a point at the expense of these dead women soldiers?
JonathanInTelAviv | 10.19.07 - 11:18 am | #

I think that if we fail to stand up and defend the Mother of God -- our Mother -- then we are not worthy of the name Christian.

Sancta Maria, spes nostra, sedes sapientie, ora pro nobis.
Sean P. Dailey | Homepage | 10.19.07 - 11:31 am | #

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but last I knew Jews (at least those of the devout variety) did not use the name of God. They generally G-d or something like this. And one would think that the idea that God had a mother would be blasphemous to Jews.

When the Israeli government doesn't mind offending the sensibilities of Jews, you know that it has become, as Mark noted, a totally secular nation.

So their Muslim neighbors get to see Israel (obviously with government sanction) display their women like harlots.

This will go a long way to foster peaceful co-existence in the middle east.

Not.
Tony | Homepage | 10.19.07 - 12:00 pm | #

"This will go a long way to foster peaceful co-existence in the middle east."
-Tony

Yeah Tony, those bikinis are the real obstacles to peace in the Middle East.
JonathanInTelAviv | 10.19.07 - 12:15 pm | #

Btw, anyone can see the full ad. I won't post a live link, but the "Holy Land" ad is on the first page of holyvirals.org. It's the 3rd ad from the top. Warning: If you watch it, don't do so at work, and note the explicit language described above.
Rick | 10.19.07 - 12:19 pm | #

Here's the holyvirals "Philosophy":

"HolyVirals.org stands for freedom of expression and love for humor!

We believe that an open mind and a sense of humor are the essential building blocks for Peace and mutual understanding in the Middle East.

The works exhibited on this site are at times provocative or at least different than what we are used to seeing on television. We hope you can appreciate that, no matter what age, sex, religion or nationality you are.

Enjoy!"

I'm not unsympathetic to this. It's easy to see, post 9/11, how religious fervor can be dangerous and destabilizing. Dampening religious fervor by encouraging humor, mocking authority and convention and repressive codes, etc, may be an effective strategy.

I'm just surprised that the ads seem to target Christian fervor. It seems to indicate that Israel perceives fervent Christians as more troublemakers than allies.
Rick | 10.19.07 - 12:36 pm | #

Jonathan.

http://www.cmrlink.org/

scroll down to

"GRIM TOLL OF MILITARY WOMEN KILLED IN WAR"


America does not appear to care that Mom Soldiers are dying in Iraq.

There was this young Mom Soldier in Iraq. At the time of her death in captivity, Pfc. Lori Ann Piestewa, was a 23 y.o. Mother of two, ages four and three at the time.

Was she tortured, raped, brutalised? Who knows?

I do know that while she was in captivity this young Mother was tortured with thoughts about her young children.

And when her young children ask the govt - Where is my Mommy; when is she coming home? - I guess the govt can show them the footage of Bush strutting around an aircraft carrier in a flight jacket boasting the mission had been accomplished - by soldier Moms, don't ya know.

Maybe later her children will see footage of Bush taunting "bring it on" as he is living in luxury, on the public taxpayer dole, having his ass protected 24/7, riding his bike, while sending Mom Soldiers, forced to separate from their young children,into War Zones thousands of miles from her family to die in some godforsaken hellhole of a place which did not have one damn thing to do with 911.

Brother, be careful. Tolerate your culture sliding into pornography, stand by silently while the govt sexualises women soldiers, and tolerate the slide into barbarism and you will rapidly discover you are in Hell on Earth - with barbaric bastards in control.

I have written my senators and my Congressman and my local Fishwrap with this - and a lot more info. Guess what? My rulers could not care less about Mom Soldiers dying in captivity and the local paper will not print my letters to the editor about 90 women having been killed in war zones.

How many of them were Private Benjamins with babies in their bellies?

NO RESPONSE. Nobody gives a rat's ass...

Sex, Violence and Entertainment, baby. That is all there is.
I'm not Spartacus | 10.19.07 - 12:52 pm | #

Spartacus, nobody answers you because these soldiers were adults who volunteered to serve their country. Your singling them out because they are women is painfully sexist and condescending, and your labelling them "plain" is insulting.

The really disgusting part is that you do this knowing that they are no longer around to counter your ridiculous claims.
JonathanInTelAviv | 10.19.07 - 1:07 pm | #

Your singling them out because they are women is painfully sexist and condescending, and your labelling them "plain" is insulting.

There are quite a few different things tangled up in here, some of which are defensible and some of which are not. Sending women off to combat is in my view morally despicable; sending mothers off into combat in other than the last existential resort is doubly so. (If combat comes to women in their own homes that is a different matter).

That is probably "sexist", in that it posits natural moral differences in how men and women should be treated in general. But the thing is, there are natural moral differences in how men and women should be treated, and truth renders any charge of "sexism" empty.

"Standing in the sun with a popsicle, everything is possible, with a lot of luck, and a pretty face, and some time to waste." -- Soul Asylum
Zippy | Homepage | 10.19.07 - 1:24 pm | #

Spartacus, nobody answers you because these soldiers were adults who volunteered to serve their country.

I suspect they were like you, ignorant of the facts. I do think they are loathe to respond due to the fear of the sort of politically correct backlash your response so vividly encapsulates.

Your singling them out.

Stalin said one death is a tragedy and a million deaths a statistic. I am just subverting that evil axiom to shine light upon our own barbarism.

Real men don't let Moms go to fight wars - even if they volunteer to do so - which is NOT what the young Mother had in mind when she signed-up for military service.

because they are women is painfully sexist and condescending, and your labelling them "plain" is insulting.

I know objecting to sending Mothers into War Zones as soldiers is thought painfully sexist but that "thought" is an evil psychosis.

I am a sane man.

As for them being "plain" in what way is that an insult?

The really disgusting part is that you do this knowing that they are no longer around to counter your ridiculous claims.

Sir, I am the same age as Israel. When I was just a lad the Korean War was going on.

The idea that ANY Mother in the military (say nothing about my Mother) in these United States would have been sent overseas to Korea into an area of combat is so crazy as to literally be beyond belief.

Any politician who suggested such an action would have had the crap beat out of him.

Men and women did not think like that back in the day.

Your response is most welcome in helping to have proven my wisdom in buying a hyperbaric chamber so I could deal with the rapdity of our descent into the depths of barbarism.

I have no way of knowing this but I am positive the Mother of those two young children, Lori Ann Piestwa, would not be upset that I wrote about her.
I'm not Spartacus | 10.19.07 - 1:37 pm | #

I am an evangelical and a supporter of Israel (I actually live here at the moment). My support for Israel isn't based entirely or even primarily on biblical reasons, though those exist as well.

One thing I would like to point out is that in Ezekiel 37, the vision of the valley of dry bones, the bones (representing Israel) are regathered first and then at the end, God gives it a heart of flesh and breathes life in to the body. I believe we're in the regathering stage now, and that in the future, the people of Israel will turn back to God. It's already starting. Thanks for letting me comment. Have a good day!
Hope | 10.19.07 - 2:15 pm | #

Hope. That is one way to read Ezechiel. We Christian Catholics read it as The prophecy was conditional and depended for its literal fulfilllment on the co-operation of Israel with the designs of Yahweh. It was spiritually fulfilled in the spirtitual Israel, the Church founded by Crist accrd to Dom Orchard's, "A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture."

For instance, the Reunion of the Separated Kingdoms (15-28 ) refers to The symbolic action of joining together two rods or scepters signifies the reunion of the divided kingdoms of Judah and Israel which Yahewh will accomplish. They shall form a single nation, under a single ruler, the new David, in their ancestral territory. Yahweh will make an eternal alliance with them and establish his sanctuary within them. The prophecy is Messianic, spiritually fulfilled in the one true Church.

Stay safe, brother.
I'm not Spartacus | 10.19.07 - 4:01 pm | #

You, guys--the "HMOG" commercial is not real! Go read my explanation over Mark's posting of today, "Some Housekeeping While I'm on the Road."
EV | 10.19.07 - 4:40 pm | #

Hope (and others interested in Christian Zionism) here are links to an excellent historical recapitulation.

http:// www.informationclearingho...article4959.htm

http:// www.informationclearingho...article4930.htm

http:// www.informationclearingho...article4950.htm

http:// www.informationclearingho...article4951.htm

http:// www.informationclearingho...article4960.htm
I'm not Spartacus | 10.19.07 - 4:47 pm | #

Christian Zionism results in biblical eisegesis which supposedly explains everything and that ideological project results in what can be summed-up in four words.

Glenn Beck. Kill Iran.
I'm not Spartacus | 10.19.07 - 5:12 pm | #

"This will go a long way to foster peaceful co-existence in the middle east."
-Tony

Yeah Tony, those bikinis are the real obstacles to peace in the Middle East.

No, Jonathan. Those bikinis are one of the obstacles. Are you really in Tel Aviv? Do you have any idea what the mindset of Islam is? Do you care?

The Muslims surrounding you don't want to be polluted by your culture which appears to have become as slutty as the rest of the west.

This is one of the reasons they're fightins us in the U.S. also.

This is also the reason that a guy like Tom Moghnahan wants to build a Catholic ghetto in Ave Maria villiage in Florida.
Tony | Homepage | 10.20.07 - 9:29 am | #

Tony, Muslim opposition to Jews living in what is now Israel predates the advent of bikinis by 30+years.
JonathanInTelAviv | 10.20.07 - 11:20 am | #

Tony-

"Are you really in Tel Aviv?"
Yes

"Do you have any idea what the mindset of Islam is?"
A few years ago the Saudi religious police force girls to stay inside a burning building and burn to death because their faces were uncovered.

"Do you care?"
Do you?
JonathanInTelAviv | 10.20.07 - 12:00 pm | #

I have no idea what "special privileges" Mark's talking about; perhaps he means survival--is to say that their support for Israel is based on a delusion. It's like whispering to a guy, "You know, your wife's cheating on you," and then affecting surprise when the guy gets angry with her.

Interesting analogy. Are you saying that the U.S. is married to Israel? If so, it was done without the consent or knowledge of most Americans.

Maybe the essence of what Mr. Shea implied is that she is not our wife afterall, just some vacuous chick in a bikini who flaunts her stuff on the beach. Maybe the feared consequence of this commercial getting play in the blogosphere is that the Catholics will start asking for an annulment. The editors at NR may want us to avoid the realization that no valid marriage ever existed.
Michael | 10.20.07 - 2:58 pm | #

No doubt some gloomy priest-ridden theocracy, a la Ireland in 1940 or most Muslim countries today, would be more to your taste.

If somebody made a similarly insulting reference to Israel, wouldn't he be denounced for anti-Semitism? Just askin'.
Seamus | 10.20.07 - 5:45 pm | #

Wasn't historical Israel a gloomy priest-ridden theocracy? Those prophets were depressing! What they really needed were some bikinis to lift their spirits.
Michael | 10.20.07 - 8:04 pm | #

Wasn't historical Israel a gloomy priest-ridden theocracy? Those prophets were depressing! What they really needed were some bikinis to lift their spirits.

Actually during their "golden calf" phase there was a lot of celebrating. What Israel needs is another golden calf to worship. Oh wait... Never mind.
Tony | Homepage | 10.21.07 - 2:46 pm | #

Mark,

Why do you need to violate modesty in order to demonstrate the violation of modesty? You could have made the point of your post without posting the visual temptation for all to see.
Suzanne | 10.22.07 - 11:22 am | #

Those evangelicals who think modern Israel has a special role in prophecy do so because of their reading of the Bible. I don't see how this ad would change their support for Israel because it will not change their reading of Scripture.

I have never heard of any Christian Zionist say that all Israelis or the Israeli government is perfectly holy or sinless. I have also not read any Bible verse that says if Israel pays for a foul-mouthed, T&A ad its role in end times events will be terminated.

Other Christians who support Israel but who don't subscribe to modern Israel's role in prophecy, base their support on Israel being a democracy, bulwark against terrorism, etc. This ad doesn't change those reasons either.
Paul L. | 10.22.07 - 8:45 pm | #