Very true and it reminds me of some discussions I've had with my wife about clerical celibacy. Coming from a Protestant background fairly recently, she has stated that it must be difficult for celibate priests to counsel married couples, especially regarding sexual matters.
I've tried to point out to her that this is not what priests (and most other occupations) are for- they should be counseling about sin and grace, morality, theology, what-have-you, but not doing psychology/marriage counseling! Leave that to psychologists and marriage counselors.
thomas tucker | 05.29.03 - 4:24 pm | #

On the other hand, there is also the problem of the railroading of Father Shanley precisely because of his past activities as a "street priest" activist, in fringe gay activism and past offenses. Basically, everyone assumed that, because Shanley had sex with runaways in the 1970s and behaved like a guilty man by fleeing to Thailand (of all places) when the charges arose, the charges by Greg Ford, Kevin English, et. al therefore must be true. Turns out that all of those charges - the ones that were partly responsible for the media frenzy - were nothing but a pack of lies. At least that seems to be what has happened in this particular case.
Patrick Rothwell | Homepage | 05.29.03 - 4:33 pm | #

Patrick:

Documentation please?
Mark Shea | Homepage | 05.29.03 - 4:35 pm | #

Patrick,

I've seen that argument made, but there is never a link or anything with it. I'm really curious about it. Is there a place that details the allegations against Shanley, both true and false?

Catherine
Catherine L. | 05.29.03 - 4:35 pm | #

Here's an article on the California charges:

http://www.presstelegram.com/ Sto...1409934,00.html

An article from Forbes magazine showing that Greg Ford's allegations are based on "recovered memory syndrome." Supposedly, Greg Ford and his friends "blocked out" the memory of being brutally raped. Sounds highly unlikely to me.

http://www.forbes.com/markets/fo...3/0609/ 072.html
Patrick Rothwell | Homepage | 05.29.03 - 5:23 pm | #

I find many priests are excellent marriage counsellors. Think about it. 90% of marriage has nothing to do with the "act" of having sex. It's to do with respecting each other, kindness, attentiveness, etc.

Priests spend a great deal of their professinal life LISTENING TO WOMEN, mostly married women who pour out their hearts either in the confessional or in spiritual direction. Many of these women are in PAIN because of the lack of the above noted key attributes of a good marriage.

Heck, I only truly know one woman (and she's still mostly a mystery)...your average seasoned priest is, in many ways, an EXPERT on what women want and what makes a good marriage. I would further argue, it's celebacy that allows this wonder to happen...
John Mulcahy | 05.29.03 - 5:23 pm | #

I agree that the personality thing is a part of it, but my experience has been that convenience is a big part of it too. I'm guilty of it just as much as anyone. One of the reasons I chose the priest who married me was that he wouldn't put up a big fight to my Lenten wedding, generally regarded cohabitation as "well, at least they're planning on getting married," and didn't even bring up the subject of birth control. In retrospect, I wish I had done differently, but I suspect that Fr. Personality is rarely the same priest as Fr. Hardass, and that that is not a coincidence.

Catherine
Catherine L. | 05.29.03 - 5:26 pm | #

Patrick,

Those articles sound like maybe the plaintiffs in them are not as credible, but they are kind of a small percentage of the claims against Shanley. I'm not at all surprised that there are plaintiffs that are not telling the truth, but Shanley seems to have left himself open to that, and 10 allegations of child rape that have been deemed credible enough to go to trial don't to me seem like a railroad. Perhaps more will become evident with time.

Catherine
Catherine L. | 05.29.03 - 5:33 pm | #

I'm with Catherine. 10 credible charges of rape isn't much of a "railroad". Dunno about the other 16 I heard of at last count. The man's an evil predator.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 05.29.03 - 5:38 pm | #

In the environmental of hysteria in Boston and the public demand for "justice", just a single affadavit claiming child rape would be sufficient to bring charges against Shanley. That doesn't meant that the charges are credible. Onw wonders, indeed, if they are as "credible" as the Boston Globe claimed the Ford cases were and are.

We will see how these charges pan out over time. Suffice it to say, I predict that we are seeing a reprise of the McMartin Pre-school and the Little Rascals child sex abuse scares at work.
Patrick Rothwell | Homepage | 05.29.03 - 6:08 pm | #

I share Patrick's concerns. Even the Boston Globe has recently cast doubt on the Ford et al "repressed memory" accusations. The Forbes article paints a picture of a couple who *wanted* to believe that their son had been molested by Shanley, and managed to convice him that he had been, even though there was no evidence of it prior to the first Globe article.

I did some digging and couldn't find it, but does anyone have any links to articles about *other* pending criminal charges against Shanley?

I have two worries: what will happen if Shanley is acquitted on the Ford charges? And what will happen if he is convicted on repressed memory alone? Either prospect frightens me.
Fr. Paul | 05.29.03 - 6:59 pm | #

Thank you for posting this, Mark. I think your comments are spot on. So often since the scandals, and in parishes where they've happened (like mine), it's not the faceless "authority" that has exiled and belittled outraged victims, but fellow parishioners. And that's what hurts so damn much, and what we've got to start making clear.

Thanks again.

Peace, Kathie
Kathie Lundquist | 05.29.03 - 7:26 pm | #

Let me bring up another aspect of this docility: trust.

The parents of victims believed that they could trust the bishop to remove the priest from ministry -- and in so many cases this wasn't true.

The parents of victims believe that they could trust the bishop that an appropriate penalty or punishment would be imposed by the Church for this sin. In fact in many cases the offending priest was unpunished or even promoted.

This carries over to many other issues like closing schools and parishes, appointing pastors, etc. Bishops are not to be trusted.
Patrick Sweeney | Homepage | 05.29.03 - 10:22 pm | #

Patrick:

Quite so. Parents assumed bishops would reflect Christ. Instead, they reflect our culture. A great betrayal. But not one with which our culture has nothing whatever to do.
Mark Shea | Homepage | 05.30.03 - 1:17 am | #

Yes, some priests make great marriage counselors. So do some plumbers. But I think going to either one for that particular purpose is barking up the wrong tree. Go to the priest for spiritual counseling, not marriage counseling.
thomas tucker | 05.30.03 - 9:28 am | #

From John: "I find many priests are excellent marriage counsellors. Think about it. 90% of marriage has nothing to do with the "act" of having sex. It's to do with respecting each other, kindness, attentiveness, etc.

Priests spend a great deal of their professinal life LISTENING TO WOMEN, mostly married women who pour out their hearts either in the confessional or in spiritual direction. Many of these women are in PAIN because of the lack of the above noted key attributes of a good marriage."

This is so true...yet, very often this PAIN has its roots in the skewed cultural approach to sex, negating the differences in desires of male vs. female, and emphasizing the lustful approach only. Men shy away from joining in couple counseling...and when they do against their wills, there can be fireworks. That's why police officers site domestic feuds as one of the most dangerous situations to get involved in. All this factors in to why priests don't get all that involved and why the laity are passed over to "experts". Finally, though, the Church has used the few experts of their own in movements such as "retrovaille" where couples (laity) learn from one another who've been there as well as having the spiritual guidance of the priest - his forte - to be the background in which the Spirit can act. And this is how it should be.
Chris K. | 05.30.03 - 9:40 am | #