Jess, I was just rereading the comments here (I was so glad to get so many!) and realized I never thanked you for yours. Sorry about that! I know just what you mean about the trampoline thing. It makes me so hapy when Jerry wants to do something even remotely "educational." Hopefully some day I'll just take those moments in stride--for now they make me want to jump up and down and shout "Hooray!" 
Yeah, Becs has recently opened our minds about India, Indonesia and deep sea diving, sharks and such stuff!
Maybe sometimes we live in insular, precious little worlds full of fears gathered from inexperience and small, latent (where did we get them) cultural prejudices. But caution is also appropriate, I keep telling myself. Pendulum swing not appropriate either!
Want a big smiley emoticon right now.
x
Thanks Sally. I expect that will happen with Jerry too. I know part of my problem with the online gaming is that it's so very foreign to me. I keep having to remind myself that parents considered rock 'n' roll to be dangerous when it was new, too. That usually helps me to mellow out a bit.
I hope your baby comes soon!
I'd feel very uncomfortable with what you describe too, for the same reasons, but also because I've seen how obsessional it can become, especially where that sort of 'personal' but largely anonymous community is involved.
I'm very torn on whether that sort of 'community experience' fulfills needs in a healthy way or not, partly because it is in such an escapist setting.
I'd agree with Tammy over at Just Enough about the never really finding an answer or a total comfort zone. It's a bit like saying that your own education will end at some finite point. For me it has been something that is always evolving.
I have found myself having some quite profound changes of heart about things. For example, you may surprisingly find that you begin to feel comfortable that Jerry has worked out some of the pitfalls of Rise online and the safe-guards needed and you suddenly begin to feel that your caution is no-longer so necessary. (This may not be one of them though!)
I continue quite often to be surprised by what I might become comfortable and trusting about. Our kids teach us a lot when we listen and I've found Becs has broken down quite a few of my concerns and shown them to me unnecessary. She is stretching our world and breaking down our prejudices too (oh, and stretching our patience often!)
It made a lot of sense to me, Sally, when you wrote "it just means we listen to them and use their thoughts and feelings to guide our guidance." I have to set certain limits because I'm just not comfortable with certain things happening in my house, but I do notice a big difference in my choices now that I'm thinking more the way you've suggested. I'm still trying to discover where my comfort level is.
For example, Jerry really wanted to play his Rise of Nations game with other online gamers but I'm just deeply uncomfortable with that because I know lots of older kids and adults play that game. So I chose to say no and I don't feel guilty about it at all. The video game/computer/TV thing is tough, but I think when I come up with a solution that doesn't make me feel guilty OR make me feel like a bad parent I will have found the answer. I have a feeling it might take a while though!
Thank you, Shukr, for the link to Tammy's Zen-Schooling entry. It was just what I needed!
Thanks, Tammy, for linking to my post on your blog. And thanks for the wisdom, too!
hey Sal x
hmmm, the focus on trust rather than boundaries is helpful.
i'm supportive of intuitive parenting, intuitive children ( what they want to eat at any given time is what they need ( normally; even if it is chocolate they are after!), when they sleep, where they sleep) and don't apply my own standards of housekeeping to them militantly, or in fact anything in particular, however, we do have a way of living in the home, ( that embraces many people not living the same way as us into our home - the children are not sheltered from other lifestyles) that embraces our daily rhythms and motions.
i always thought that would count us out entirely from U or RU, ( as *other people* seem to propose it.LOL.LOL) !
Anyhow, I'm exploring my relationship with unschooling again as I have settled my position on waldorf in writing.lol.
I say bin the labels and need to know how I fit with any educational philosophy, and just get on with it, ( which is what happens whilst we are trying to find our balance anyway, isn't it!) but I guess I have this tribal thing going on subconsciously.LOL.
but then, I already have my tribe, so go figure.lol...
thanks colleen for this
x
I think it is a matter of trust rather than not setting boundaries. I have really struggled with that because I initially took TCS recommendations to mean that I couldn't guide my kids or have an opinion. That stinks. I also thought it was saying that I had no right to not like stuff, or I had no rights full stop, no opinions ... a sort of doormat situation. But I realised that they are saying I also have a right for my feelings and ideas to be taken seriously. They are just highlighting that children should (and often don't) get theirs taken seriously.
I think, if you trust kids to eat well they generally will ... as long as what you generally eat in your house is healthy food. I think if you allow them to sit in front of the TV they will generally get bored and go off and find something else to do, because everything gets boring eventually (though I know some don't ... but I suspect they have history with restrictions that they are still trying to overcome.) I also think it is your choice as a family what is available in your house! I don't expose my kids to things I really don't like (like junk food) if I can help it! I don't know how RU that is, or how TCS that is ... but I'm not sure either that it isn't.
I really do believe, however, that left on their natural path, children are the best judges of where they are personally heading and how to get there. It doesn't mean we leave them in a vacuum, it just means we listen to them and use their thoughts and feelings to guide our guidance? It takes a fair amount of trust on our parts. But to trust a child who hasn't lost trust in him/herself seems like a really good move. I suppose I'm given confidence by Montessori's 25 years of testing that principle all round the world.
Nice thread Colleen.
Hi Shukr xxx
just wanted to clarify my first comment!!!
'I hope I will actually get the rationale that I haven't so far from this discussion'
i mean - i've actually been kind of 'unschooling' from the start, but never got to grips with the fact that there is an issue with boundaries. so that's over 8 years now, ( i was preg when started exploring it all), that i have kind of felt on the edge of unschoolers, but want to understand the philosophy behind this not setting boundaries. so, am hoping from this thread that i'll see some responses addressing it iyswim.)
oh dear, i should go bed earlier and try this at an easier hour.
am enjoying and benefitting from your blog would be a much better way to phrase it all!
and i'm a new unschooler *still* ,)
i think you've coined a phrase. LOL.
I found this helpful
http://justenough.wordpress.com/.../#comment-
19702
tbh, this is where I struggle with RU, or even unschooling. I don't see why it isn't okay to set boundaries. They are healthy imo. Some things are harmful. Why wouldn't we avoid those things?
I am with giving children autonomy with their learning and personal habits, in general, but with boundaries. I will never accept that 'everything goes' because *everybody* draws lines *somewhere* - with themselves and with what they will accept from their children.
Surely if you don't watch tv then it's not unreasonable to not have a tv in your home - even if your child wants one? But if you do watch tv personally, then it does seem unreasonable to not allow them the same...
I hope I will actually get the rationale that I haven't so far from this discussion.)
I'm backreading the comments above, and have to agree that your trust encouraging Jerry's trust is well worth a post of its own! That is exactly what seems to happen in my experience!
Have you come across Taking Children Seriously.com?
It would support your efforts potentially and encompasses the RU that people were talking about above ... how it extends to a child's choices regarding eating/diet as well as what a child choses to learn.
I'm working on those apparently non-ed things right now!
Well, maybe mostly I'm working on thinking about giving birth this evening!
Gone to watch TV!
xxxxx
Hi Colleen, sounds like you are deschooling too! We think a lot about our kids deschooling or deschooling our kids. What wasn't initially apparent to me was that I would actually require somewhat more deschooling than my kids! LOL! My younger ones had never been to school, so it was only a matter of them overcoming the little bit of schooly schooling I'd done over the short years. For my eldest deschooling has taken the form of travelling and dropping out. She has really benefitted from it, but it took quite a leap of faith for us as parents. It has been a real deschooling for us, and that is helping greatly with the auto-education ethos at home (with the littler ones.)
The longer you've been in school or privvy to the school culture in our societies, the more deschooling you probably have to do.
Jerry's will probably take a shorter time than yours. Hang in there. I've taken to explaining this quite explicitly to my kids and they are very willing to help me to keep deschooling myself.
Trust that you are doing a really good job and you just have to go through these stages.
xxx
I appreciate this post. I'm in my first year of homeschooling my five year-old, and since I have to work part-time, I feel like we have to make good use of the time that we have. So I stress about what my daughter is doing. I also have a little feeling that, while she likes starfall.com, she'd probably rather be on (sigh) CareBears.com.
But then today she said, "Hey! Can I go jump on my trampoline? We can do math!" So we sang a song about math and did some math facts while she jumped on the trampoline, because that's what she wanted to do. I'm still a little blown away by that...
Colleen,
You've got it right! You don't have to jump in with both feet. Start where you are and move forward from there.
We're kind of where you are. But we really *like* where we are. So, although I do think a lot about giving the kids more freedom and lessening my angst about things, mostly we do what works. And when we do that, we naturally settle into a grove that makes us all happy.
Sometimes that means unlimited games, sometimes not. Sometimes that means workbooks, or a schedule, sometimes not. It all depends on what our current needs are.
I guess, what changed my view on this was to realize that there is no inherent "good" or "bad". It's all about whether or not what we are doing gets closer to our goals. Can we do it with integrity? Can everyone in the family be their best and highest selves in our way of life?
And, it sounds like you are doing just that!
Thanks for the inspiring post. I'm going to link it on my blog today.
I'm glad you enjoyed my post! I enjoyed yours as well. I think its an everlasting journey for all of us. We are all forever learning new things and having new realizations. It's all part of growing up. (for us I mean. LOL)
Evie, I should be getting the Rue Cream book in the mail any day now. I ordered it last week. I think the "idea" of RUing sounds really great, too. I guess I just worry that with a 12-year-old I'm getting such a late start. He definitely seems to appreciate his new freedoms. The other day, though, I was telling him about Radical Unschooling and how all his decisions would be his own and his eyes got really big. I said, "Would that be a good idea?" And he goes, "NO! I'd probably spend all my time playing video games!" I got a good laugh out of it, but it made me think that maybe once I start to trust him, he'll start to trust himself. Hmmm...that idea might warrant its own post!
Thanks Wendy. I really like your blog too! I'll add it to my list as well. Thanks for coming back!
Hi again,
I came back to say that I'd like to add you to my "Blogs I Read" list. It was lucky for me to find this latest post of yours, because I'm having a lot of TV guilt myself right now. I hear you about the inner turmoil - so true! Anyway, your comments helped. Thanks.
One of the things that helped me in the beginning was just learning to say yes as much as possible. Really helped me investigate all those knee-jerk reactions we experience.
I cannot recommend heartily enough that you get Rue Kream's book. It will help illustrate the all-encompassing view of Radical Unschooling. Another book, if you're not sure you want to go the RU route is "The Unschooling Handbook". There are unschoolers out there who do not relinquish all control. Frankly, I think I lean this way myself I just haven't been able to give up on the idea of RU because it sounds right. Sometimes, I just need them to be in their room so I can have time to myself! Also, sometimes it freaks me out when all one of them will eat is peanut butter and honey sandwiches all day. LOL
I try very hard to give them as much autonomy as possible. I will admit though that I do occasionally use my parental influence. We're still working our way through things, too!
Evie
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