There. I've read them all.
First off, I just have to say that I know every one who is offering advice here has the best of intentions and I really appreciate that you are taking time to help me out. So thanks for that.
Second, I would like to announce (drum roll please) that I am aiming for a Radical Unschooling lifestyle. I hadn't actually put that into words yet. I've been wanting to go that route but kind of worried and afraid and I figure I just need to put it out there that my goal (and I've only recently come to realize this) is Radical Unschooling.
Actually, I was going to comment here in the comments but maybe it makes more sense to create a new post because this could get kind of long and I don't want to get cut off. That's what I'm going to do--I'm going to create a new post.
"heck, Colleen even worries and works to make all her commenters happy and comfortable!"
Oh my god JJ that is so true!! Ha!! I'm laughing so hard I'm crying!! And I've been so worried about everyone getting their feelings hurt as I read through all these comments! It's awful! The comments are good, they're great, and I do think hearing the differing viewpoints is really helpful because it gives the conversation more depth, but I get so worried about everybody's feelings. I'm learning a lot about myself these days. 
Okay, back to reading...
Okay, and now I just remembered how Nance told me it wasn't my fault that Jerry's friend left and I don't want to forget to comment on that one either. Thank you Nance. I breathed a sigh of relief when I read that. It's funny how you sometimes need to be released from those things. I really was taking it all on myself--everything. At one point when we were hiking on the volcano that day--and this was after we had all kind of "made up"--I just started crying. We were sitting down having a snack and I just put my hands in my face and wept and it was all because I felt like (I knew!) the whole thing was my fault. So I guess I need to remember I'm not all powerful and in control of everything, therefore EVERYTHING cannot possibly be all my fault.
Okay, I'm making my way through these comments at an internet cafe in Queenstown and I'm trying to hold everything in my brain so I can formulate a response to all of it but this comment from Caren jumped out at me and I didn't want to forget to reply:
"When he gets cranky and miserable, do not take on his crankiness and misery as your own."
Whoa! You mean I don't have to take on his feelings!? I can file this under "things I should have known" because I know about this rule in a marriage but would you believe it has never occurred to me top apply the same rule to parenting?! I think it might be REALLY hard but I'm definitely going to start trying that one out. Thanks Caren.
Obviously, Colleen, you need to start a discussion forum.
Min - Why do you want to be authoritative? It sounds like you believe your child has no internal guidance system. I see my job as partnering with my kids, helping them access their own inner guidance to make choices - then supporting those choices -, rather than being some kind of all-seeing, all-knowing guru. There's a great discussion group, Always Unschooled, at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Al...waysUnschooled/
and of course, Consensual Living, at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Co...sensual-living/
Omigod Nance, that is exactly what I see these days too, sad relatives surrounding us, wanting so badly to be happy that they sabotage any real chance for it with both fists throwing it away as fast and furiously as possible . . .no doubt that's part of my current frame of mind.
As a new mom, I've been struggling with the same issues. I sway between being too permissive and too authoritarian. What I wish to be is authoritative. I'm the parent so it is my job to protect and guide while listening to my child. Once she's old enough (she's only 23 months), I'm hoping she will internalize some of the things I've taught her (the lessons in life as you might say)...but currently I'm working on being a better role model. That alone is hard.
I'm just checking in a again to say I'm still alive but have limited internet access (we're staying with a friend's brother's family in Dunedin!) and haven't been able to read all the comments yet. I should be able to get online for a couple hours tomorrow and hope to catch up and respond. Thanks guys!
JJ: If Mom is confused and miserable and self-pitying, and can't handle it for herself as an adult, needs her friends and lots of time to think hard about it all, moment to moment and day to day, then are we SERIOUSLY gonna say she needs help with her problem but the kid's on his own with all HIS confusion and misery, loneliness and lashing out when he feels coerced or taken for granted?
********
Was anyone saying that? It seems to me Jerry is pretty clear about what he wants. And he speaks his mind. But then Mom falls to pieces. Which can't be too encouraging about future times when he wants to speak up. . .
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JJ: when they drag him halfway across the world
Me: Yes. And now he is trapped.
When this trip was being planned, did Jerry really understand what was going on?
***********
Me: I sure as heck couldn't help anyone feel better -- as much as anyone can help another person feel better -- if I was looking around for who to blame all the time and mostly looking in the mirror.
We have relatives who do this, btw -- play the resentment and blame game. DH and I were just talking about this last week. If we went at each other all the time the way our relatives do -- well, sure, we'd find lots of faults to pick at, but the energy that would take! Then we'd be resentful and then we'd doubt ourselves at every turn and question the smallest things. The relatives I'm thinking of are really sad people. Not supporting each other at all. Too wrapped up in doing things right and keeping score and old hurts.
And that's what I would like to see Colleen avoid. Feeling so bad about things that go wrong instead of enjoying what you can. With Jerry if he wants and without him at the times he'd rather stay at home.
Or maybe he hates to be left alone and I have assumed too much on that front? Hmmm. . .
Nance
Right, I was speaking about the conversational gestalt.
JJ: is to counter any suggestion of relieving Colleen's bad feelings through shifting bad-feeling blame to Jerry
**********
Me: Certainly not my intention. I was trying to suggest that Jerry's wishes be honored. If he wants to watch TV while Mom and Dad hike, I'd say that's the solution. But Mom (and maybe Dad?) have to stop feeling bad about him missing out on whatever they think is the cool thing they should all be doing together. It turns out, and I know you will all be surprised, but I am not only vertically challenged but coolness challenged. According to my kids anyway. So they are asked if they want to come along to whatever or asked if they want me to stick around. And the time when the answers became "no" more than "yes" was strange. But that seems right to me too. That they should have their own interests.
Nance
Will they be happy unschooling years, or conflict and competition with his own parents, who are bigger and older and legally, financially, culturally all-powerful over him, on top of which they outnumber him as an only child, when they drag him halfway across the world and then tell him he's surly and spoiling their fun when he tries to meet then halfway but the mountain turns out to have been misrepresented to him?
Gosh, I DO feel for Colleen but as a loving adult mom and New Unschooler, not a little kid crying to her friends about how no one understands her at home. I can't help wondering who's feeling for Jerry then, if not his own parents? Does he "need" to resort to his own peer group then, to help him blame his parents, until he can get out on his own in life and start blaming his kids?
I can't do anything for Jerry or Colleen but they can do everything for each other. Colleen can be all-powerful in creating better feelings for everyone in this relationship, unless she cedes her power and remains confused, self-doubting, and blame-filled, which very probably means letting Jerry grow up feeling the same way.
(too long, got cut off)
Unschooling is a mindful lifestyle which encompasses, at its core, an atmosphere of trust, freedom, joy and deep respect for who the child is. . . Unschooling sometimes seems so counterintuitive that people struggle to understand it, and it can take years to fully accept its worth. The purpose of (discussion among unschoolers) is to move out of our own comfort zones as we critically examine our beliefs, ideas, and viewpoints about learning, and seek a deeper understanding of unschooling and more respectful relationships with our children."
Where was trust, freedom, joy and deep respect in anything that happened on Hike and Ferry Day? On too many other days? Where is it in the "dialog" here, in advice that an UNSCHOOLING mom should do what she wants and needs to do, and the kid can lump it without his own mom's understanding and support? Nance's point is true and useful and understood among experienced, happy unschooling moms who just have a bad afternoon. We can laugh and our kids can too, and we go merrily on. But here, now, while a New Unschooler is confused, struggling with bad feelings and resentments against her husband and child, self-doubting and self-pitying? Not so much.
Peer group "support" isn't much different for grownups that how Jerry's friends would rally around him with their "feelings" of solidarity for a member who's hurting. Warren's peers at work and every bartender in the world, will all agree his wife doesn't understand him. That's what casual, no-cost, uninformed peer group support is for! 
But that doesn't lead to problem-solving, to unschooling success.
I see it this way: If Mom is confused and miserable and self-pitying, and can't handle it for herself as an adult, needs her friends and lots of time to think hard about it all, moment to moment and day to day, then are we SERIOUSLY gonna say she needs help with her problem but the kid's on his own with all HIS confusion and misery, loneliness and lashing out when he feels coerced or taken for granted? My strong suspicion is that Jerry learned those lessons very well already, from a whole life of regular schooling and parenting. What mom, dad, and child need now and for a long time to come, isn't more of that, but the opposite. IF they want it, need it and are willing to create it.
So over the years a few unschooling lists have grown past the usual girl group sympathy chorus, to become solid resources to new unschoolers, places to "self-learn" unschooling and make it work in your own life. Those lists and experienced unschoolers generally (like us) object to the usual squishy "peer support" because it's the very opposite of good unschooling guidance, on Jerry's behalf and not Colleen's-- this is about Jerry's needs and wants, and he only has a few years left with his mom and dad. Will they be happy unschooling years, or conflict and competition with his own parents, who are bigger and older a
OK - here's my Sandra Dodd impression, make of it what you will (Nance is helping me experiment with being The New Non-Pussyfooter!)
I agree with Nance that over time, I too have seen Colleen's bad feelings as the real obstacle in her path and the big problem to be faced head-on -- heck, Colleen even worries and works to make all her commenters happy and comfortable! --and I've tried to express that warmly and supportively AND unschooling-constructively.
But the point where I take the trouble to start pushing back against harmless sympathy and ignorant chat, is to counter any suggestion of relieving Colleen's bad feelings through shifting bad-feeling blame to Jerry (or blaming Warren or the law or her own parents, much less her blog commenters!)
Not perfect every moment, no. But Colleen wasn't really confused about that, right, thinking unschooling would make everything perfect for everyone all the time? I think she's gotten confused about chores and outings as her personal "wants" and "needs" -- which they aren't, not if she's really The New Unschooler.
I chose what I want and need. To get what *I* want most for myself and my whole family, their dad and I are companions and guides and champions for each other and with each child, and wind up fulfilled beyond anything we dreamed of, ourselves.I understand and agree with what Nance meant, but Colleen doesn't really understand yet, how could she? Nor do many of her commenters. So it seems to me that zeroing in on Colleen's current feelings instead of her chosen commitment to change the direction of her whole life with Jerry and Warren, is like sympathizing with a girlfriend for a bad test score or being grounded for wrecking dad's car, and the whole group blaming her teacher or dad as a meanie, to help her "feel better".
Focus on problem-solving, how to find unschooling principles in any specific mess, the better to build relationships and move forward toward audacious goals together as a family? Priceless!
Focus on my own bad or hurt feelings in competition with family members I love? -- not really helping!
People who say they could never unschool, shouldn't and probably couldn't. It remains to be seen, I suppose, whether Colleen can and will unschool successfully, and she will discover those answers for herself, it seems seems to me points are useful for an ordinary parent to keep in mind here, maybe all of them one way or another, but for a New Unschooler trying to figure out and build new "hows" and "whys" there is one BIG idea. So much bigger than whose feelings count more or less, or anything like that.
Sandra Dodd and Pam Sorooshian say it something like this:". . .an unschooling parent sees his/her role, not as a teacher, but as a facilitator and companion in a child’s exploration of the world.
Unschooling is a mindful lifestyle which encompasses, at its core, an atmosphere of trust, freedom, joy and deep respect for who the child
ROFL - at the sudden picture of vertically challenged Nance trying to impose her will of six-foot and still-growing Dear Son!
That's part of what I was trying to get to, Caren. Even if the other person is deciding not to enjoy something, you can still enjoy it.
Or can you really?
We get so wrapped up in our kids, when they aren't happy that can spoil the whole mood for everyone.
And there's the whole "how?" question. If my DS's butt was glued to the couch, how exactly would I get him on the mountain?
And, JJ, yes, it would be wonderful if I always felt my children were the most interesting thing in the world. And sometimes, most of the time, they are. But sometimes they are pills. Not perfect. Even though we unschool. Imagine!
Which brings me back to the whole idea of how bad I'm going to feel about things when they don't go well. And they don't always go well.
That was actually the first thing in this thread that caught my eye -- not the squabbles but how Colleen was taking all the blame on and holding onto feeling so bad about how things went. But maybe she knows more than I caught on the first read through. She posted: "Phew! Unschooling doesn't mean I have to be perfect!?"
And the answer to that is a big YES!
Nance
What about seeing the child as the once-in-a-lifetime trip the parents just can't wait to spend the day with, not the mountain?
Mm-hmm. I actually thought about that after I posted - because it very rarely has to be that my children are left miserable. But it seemed, in this one case, that for Colleen and Warren, it was very important that they go on this once-in-a-lifetime trip, and there really wasn't another option than for Jerry to go along.
I was worried people would take my post to mean - all the time, every time, let them deal with their frustration and disappointment, and you go ahead and be happy! But when all the options have been considered, and you've talked and talked and tried to find solutions... sometimes that's how it goes.
And, as time goes on, and Jerry sees you really doing your best to come up with mutual solutions and supporting his *needs*, I'm guessing his crankiness will be shorter-lived in those (hopefully rare) situations.
Not saying your post was directed at me, but that was on my mind after I posted.
Funny though, how it's Mom's "needs" and Child's "wants" . . . . language is so illuminating. . .
"Go with Jerry who says he wants to go but gets cranky halfway through and everyone is miserable.
Go with Jerry who says he doesn't really want to go but will try to be pleasant for the benefit of others and he still gets cranky halfway through and everyone is miserable."
Or, go with Jerry, who is clear he doesn't want to go, but there doesn't *seem* to be another (legal) option, that feels safe and good for everyone. When he gets cranky and miserable, do not take on his crankiness and misery as your own. He can own his own feelings. You can be happy, even if he is not.
I *know* how hard it is to remain centered when my child is miserable, and not afraid to let me know it. But - it does happen! Especially when I've been clear about what my needs are, and have made sure to meet them. It takes a lot of *breathing*. lol
Thanks for the background info Cate. We have some of that same sort of stupid thinking here. A few bad parents do not make good law anyplace, it seems.
So what options will Colleen and her DH have next time?
Go and leave Jerry at home who his happy for some alone time.
Go with Jerry who says he wants to go but gets cranky halfway through and everyone is miserable.
Go with Jerry who says he doesn't really want to go but will try to be pleasant for the benefit of others and he still gets cranky halfway through and everyone is miserable.
Go with Jerry and he hates it but is pleasant the whole time.
Go with Jerry and he actually has a good time even if he didn't expect to.
Figure out something they all want to do with the knowledge that it may or may not work out.
Stay home and never go anywhere ever again until Jerry is 14.
Feel bad about all of the choices above or decide not to feel bad whatever happens.
I vote for the first one and not feeling bad about it.
Or the "figure out something everyone wants to do" and still not feeling bad about it if everyone doesn't have a good time.
Nance
"And do not party or go casino-hopping without your young children, and call it meeting your own needs, so there! "
But what if they don't WANT to go?
And do not party or go casino-hopping without your young children, and call it meeting your own needs, so there!
"And does anybody actually comply with such a silly law? Or check on you if you don't?"
Yep, if the child is noticed as being alone, the police will certainly check Nance. There's been some shocking cases of really young kids left home alone while the parents partied or went to the casino, hence the law.
Sandra Dodd wrote this when she had an 11-year-old unschooling son (near Jerry's age) along with two other children and a house to keep:
" . . .It doesn't take much of a shift to consider house and education secondary instead of primary. What might be primary then? Health? Joy? Togetherness and love?
. . . Enjoyment is seen nearly as a sin for some people. "You're not here to have fun, you're here to work." Why can't work bring joy? Any tiny moment can be enjoyed: the feel of warm running water when you wash your hands; light and shadow on the floor; pictures in the clouds; the feel of an old book. If you see an old friend that can bring pure, tingly joy for which there are no words.
If you practice noticing and experiencing joy, if you take a second out of each hour to find joy, your life improves with each remembrance of your new primary goal. You don't need someone else to give you permission, or to decide whether or not what you thought gave you joy was an acceptable source of enjoyment.
. . . Can looking at your child bring you joy even when he needs a bath and has lost a shoe and hasn't lived up to some expectation that only exists in your mind? If not, a paradigm shift could help you both.
Your life is yours, and it is being lived even as you read this.
Do not wait for approval. Do not wait for instructions, or for a proctor to say "Open your lifebook now and write."
Have all the joy you want, and help your children, neighbors and relatives find some too. . ."
I didn't know that, Cate. And does anybody actually comply with such a silly law? Or check on you if you don't?
Nance
Holly's comment might hold the key to part of Colleen's confusion:
". . .Without me ever feeling like my child has 'ruined my day.' "
Right, feeling that way has nothing to do with unschooling! You aren't meant to feel that way in a happy unschooling family. No one is, parent or child.
Not in a school, not in the pool, not in New Zee nor here with me!
There's SO many ways to be happy together mainly because you're together, and from there, each person's individual joys multiply instead of divide.
What if it had been just the two of you on this trip, no child, and you really wanted to hike while Warren really didn't, or vice versa? Or what if Jerry had been two years old with short little legs, or a colicky baby?
Grousing and misery all around? If so, would that prove "marriage" itself was therefore flawed? Or that there were some specific interpersonal issues, but not being caused by "marriage" principles?
So the bedrock unschooling principle would be for no one to have his or her day ruined or dumbed down or compromised away, no matter what each person winds up "doing" (or not doing.)
And as we've been telling Colleen all along, it's real. It works. It's worth it.
Hi Nance,
just letting you know that leaving a child under 14 home alone here in NZ is actually illegal, so leaving Jerry would not be an option for Colleen in this instance.
Cheers,
Cate
Colleen: The big thing that happened on Sunday was that warren and I wanted to hike up Rangitoto and Jerry didn't. We didn't feel right leaving him home alone since we'd be taking a scheduled ferry and wouldn't be able to get back quickly if there were an emergency and it was a last minute decision to go so it was too late to arrange a play date or baby-sitting.
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OK, I just read this part and I'll put in my oar again to say that, at 12 years old, I would feel comfortable leaving my child home alone. I know you're not really at home and I know this is a decision that families have to work out on their own.
But it seems to me that just as you and your DH have interests, Jerry might be at an age to be trusted to pursue his own interests on his own. With lots of discussion about staying put and not opening doors to strangers and not doing anything that would constitute an emergency (what are you picturing is going to happen that would be an emergency?) and having emergency phone numbers (no babysitter needed at that age but a relative or friend who could get there quickly?), etc.
The need for privacy and alone time can be felt on all sides and Jerry might be just as happy to see you leaving as your DH would be to have a few uninterrupted hours of hiking with you in a good mood!
Nance
Susan -
I just want to say, most kids *who are controlled* in the amount of TV they watch, video games they play, sugar they eat, etc. will spend LOTS of time doing just those things when they are given the freedom to do so. Non-coercive, radically unschooling families have found that kids who have had that freedom from day 1, or who are *truly, honestly* given that freedom, will, over time, choose to watch or game or eat exactly only as much as they want. Which, some days is a lot, some days is none. But they learn to self-regulate, based on what feels good to their spirits or bodies. My boys will play video games for *days* if it's a new game, and they want to beat it. Or, they might not even turn on the TV for days because they've found something more interesting to do. The thing is, there's no judgment here about the value of any activity, so there's no need to push against anything.
There's plenty more information and examples of real-life families living this way on the internet - Colleen has a few links on her blog, I've got some on mine. You can go to any of the unschooling discussion lists (I recommend unschooling basics) and folks there will tell you their experiences with letting go of control, and how that looked in their families.
I could write about non-coercive parenting and consensual living all day, but I won't take up this space to do so. It in no way means the kids "always gets their way" or you do things "at the whim of a 13 year old". You can learn more, if you're interested, at the Consensual Living site I link to on my blog.
No, Susan, that's not what non-coercive parenting means. In fact, it's all about empathy and living in the world with other human beings. I model empathy for my child all the time, and in turn she shows empathy for others every day. But I think I've done a pretty good job of explaining all that already in my previous comments.
But, in re-reading and trying to make sense of this very animated discussion I did find something else that I wanted to comment on - something that Susan quoted earlier:
"Don Elium: It's very hard. The first thing you want to see in your child is a reflection of yourself."
Um. Really? If that's true, maybe that's where a lot of the difficulty is stemming from. The first thing I want to see in my child is MY CHILD. I want to see her own individual spark. I want to see that she's becoming her own person with her own ideas and her own inner strength. Often that will lead to apparent "conflict" as individuals have different needs. And at those times we'll work it out (No, not by "letting her do whatever she wanted", but by finding a suitable compromise that takes everyone's needs into account.)
But it will also mean that I am doing a great job - supporting her and allowing her to develop into the person she wants to be. So times of apparent conflict can also be times of reassurance and fulfillment. I want my daughter to question me, to assert herself and stand up for her own point of view. I also want her to do it respectfully and to learn to work through a conflict in a reasonable way. "Non-coercive" parenting provides opportunities for all those things. Without me ever feeling like my child has "ruined my day."
Hi Colleen --
I haven't been following all this and feel like I owe you a hug. {{{{}}}}
From what I picked up reading through your past through posts, it sounds like you need some time away from Jerry. It's OK to need that. I'm on my way to go walking now. No kids in sight.
And there's more going on. Right? We just don't have all the details. If we even need them. But one thing that jumped out at me was you saying it was probably your fault that Jerry's friend went home early.
Please lay that burden down. The social life of 12-year-old boys is not your fault or anything you can control.
More later but please give yourself a break.
Nance
Generosity of spirit beats selfishness and models what we want for our children. We all seem to agree on that. The rest is interpretation -- happy unschooling grown-ups tend to see this current confusion as Joyfully Rejoycing does:
"He Doesn't Care About My Feelings"
". . .First, I don't think we should be sacrificing for kids. We should be doing for them because we want to.
Often times we feel put out because we feel like we don't have a choice. . .Second, I think we should be honest when something is important to us and share why it's important. Not to convince them, but to share our feelings . .If we want them to treat us gently when they inconvenience us, then we need to model that and treat them gently when we inconvenience them."
"I Live Here Too!"
. . .The answer isn't to let him have his way. It's to recognize that life is full of times when two needs conflict and people need to find ways to work it out so both needs get met. . .Fair isn't always equal. And the goal isn't necessarily fair. Being respectful of each other is. Being respectful sometimes means one person choosing to do something less convenient so that both people can get their needs met.
. . .The one flaw in it is that if he's used to having solutions imposed on him, if he's used to having to fight and hold his ground to get what he wants, then giving something up is going to feel like he's losing. We teach our kids compassion for our feelings not by insisting on them acting compassionate but by being compassionate and generous and respectful of their needs, especially when we don't understand why those needs are important to the child. . . ."
ok, so let me get this straight. Being a non-coercive parent would mean that you let him do whatever he wanted and that would be the best choice? And he wouldn't feel validated because you wouldn't let him stay at home and watch tv? And then on top of that he could ruin your entire day because he was angry at you for not letting him? OY.
How does that prepare a person to live in the world with other human beings including someday a partner with needs of his/her own? How does that teach empathy for others?
You are a family unit and each one of you has needs. How dysfunctional it would be if each one of you felt that your own needs, no matter how selfish, trumped that of the other family members?
In fact, what's the point of being a family if you are willing to let one member rule the roost and ruin the experience for the rest of you?
I'm sure that if you constantly give in to someone, you could create an atmosphere free of conflict, but is that what you really want? It sure would be miserable for me to have to live at the whim of my 13 year old who in a best case scenario for him, would play on the computer or wii for the better part of the day.
You know when I realized that letting him wasn't the best idea. When (unprompted from me and in a much longer and complicated context) he told me that one of the things he disliked about himself was the very thing he would fight me for the right to do --left to his own devices he didn't do anything else but hang out all day in front of the computer or tv.
I think you have a very "child centered family", where you need to have a "family centered" family. Your needs and Warren's count just as much as his and your son needs to realize that he is not the center of the universe and somedays he has to do stuff, even if he doesn't want to do it.
Ok, that's all I have time for so flame away. And just for the record -- I'm still not talking about punishment, scolding or withholding "priviledges" in order to have this happen.
Oh my gosh!! I wrote that post just before getting on the plane to Christchurch and went online this afternoon with 20 minutes to spare before the taxi comes to take us to the bus station and I haven't even had time to read through all the comments! But thank you! Even though I haven't read all of them I know there are differing opinions here and just wanted to say I value (and appreciate!) everyone's comments and am so glad to have a dialog happening. The big thing that happened on Sunday was that warren and I wanted to hike up Rangitoto and Jerry didn't. We didn't feel right leaving him home alone since we'd be taking a scheduled ferry and wouldn't be able to get back quickly if there were an emergency and it was a last minute decision to go so it was too late to arrange a play date or baby-sitting. So I remembered not wanting to make him do something against his will and spoke to him about that but said me and his dad really wanted to go and might not have the opportunity to go again. Jerry came around and said he'd go. We bought the tickets but then he realized we'd have to wait for the ferry would come to bring us back in order to get home and he had only wanted to stay for 30 minutes. We went anyway since we had the tickets but it was miserable. He went just short of throwing himself on the ground in a tantrum. I was mad. Warren was mad. Once we were on the island we couldn't leave. It was awful. We ended up making it through the day and apologizing to each other in the end but it certainly was a good example of how forcing something on your child is not a good idea! But then I wonder what could I have done differently (aside from not getting mad) to improve the situation, especially if Warren and I both really wanted to go. In retrospect I think the answer was just not to go. But then what about what Warren and I wanted? Jerry just wanted to stay home and watch TV, which is valid, but which is also something he can do at anytime of the day or night whether we're in LA or NZ. So that was really tricky for me--balancing our needs with his--and it definitely did not pan out too well. I know what the traditional parenting route would have me do but I couldn't figure out how to make the non-traditional work in that situation--so both failed.
Hopefully I'll have time to read and respond to all your comments next time I go online. I'm not sure when that will be--could be a few days--but thanks for ALL your comments!!!!
Colleen - I feel like I have to apologize, not for my point of view or for my advice, I stand by them both.
But I feel like I have to apologize for using your blog to justify my position.
You seemed to be asking for advice, and granted you were specific (JJ), and in that perhaps I shouldn't have said anything at all.
Because I have no doubt that resulting arguements have not helped in the least.
As someone who both cares about and understands what you're going through, I offered my best advice with the best of intentions.
Much love to you, Jerry and Warren on your journey.
And thanks for saying Hi to the Dolphins for me...I'll never forget it.
(I guess I got too long-winded, because the rest of my comment got cut off! here's the next part...):
(I'm not even sure what's meant by a "privilege" in this context). Those ideas are as foreign to me as eating meat.
And I'm not saying that to add the topic of vegetarianism to this debate! I'm merely making the point that, as JJ said, to a certain extent, we do create our own reality. Mine is meat free. A lot of people couldn't imagine that. But for me, I couldn't imagine living any other way. Same with respectful, unconditional parenting. Same with natural birth. Same with all these choices we make. We commit to them in our hearts and minds, and then we form our reality around those ideals. We can always adjust our reality to make it even better, but we certainly don't have to conform to someone else's version of reality just because "that's just the way it is."
*h
Right on, Caren! That is a great analogy. And I really enjoyed that film. And I have to agree - all the unschooled kids I know are so well-adjusted! They are thoughtful, considerate, and caring. They're certainly not walking all over other people!
Colleen, I'm surprised at what a negative turn this discussion has taken! It's really a shame.
Contrary to what some have suggested, I don't think age has anything to do with competence in parenting. There are mothers I respect and admire both young and old. There are also mothers both young and old who abuse their children. Being a certain age certainly doesn't make you any wiser. What does make you wiser is taking the time and the effort (which you, Colleen, have already shown so much commitment to doing) to KNOW YOUR CHILD, to build a trusting and mutually respectful relationship. If you've done that, you really will be in a different place than a "coercive" parent. "Coercive" parenting is based in principles of behaviorism - the way people often train animals. You either give a reward for the desired behavior or you administer a punishment for an undesirable behavior. But that doesn't teach children to act positively out of kindness or caring or morality. It teaches them to act positively in order to get a reward or to avoid a punishment - in other words, in order to serve themselves. People may use these methods because they produce results in the short term - a child who is threatened with a punishment is likely to hop to it and do what you said just because you said to... or else! But in the long term, what is the child learning? That you can make someone do what you want them to do if you have enough power over them? No wonder these parents have so much trouble with their teenagers - that's the time when their parental power begins to wane because, for one thing, they're not so much bigger than the child any more! A parent-child relationship based in power and control is destined to fall apart just as soon as the child gets some power of her own.
By contrast, the act of modeling positive behavior, establishing trusting relationships, working through problems with creativity and compromise, these are all approaches that serve our children over the long term and help them to become thoughtful, reasonable people with whom we can enjoy wonderful relationships for the rest of our lives. Sure, it's a lot more work! But isn't it worth it?
And yes, of course, I realize that there is a continuum of parenting styles, but I think you know what I'm talking about despite a bit of semantically convenient generalization.
And perhaps some of the moms who've been speaking here will discount my input because I'm but a vibrant and youthful 32 years of age! But in seven and a half years of parenting my daughter I've never once raised my voice, never once guilted or punished, and never revoked a "privilege" (I'm not even sure what's meant by a "privilege" in this contex
Beautiful power of story, Caren.
I feel a little weird about this, like I'm tooting my own horn or something, but I had written a response to someone on an e-mail who was feeling not sure about unschooling, that may apply to your situation? Anyway, here it is:
I just saw The Business of Being Born, the film produced by Ricki Lake
about the birth industry and midwifery,
(http://thebusinessofbeingborn.com/) so I've been thinking a lot about
my own two homebirths. I remember one empowering thing I learned about
birth... transition is the most difficult time, the time when most
moms want to give up, want to give in and have an epidural, feel like
there's NO WAY they can do this. But transition means you're almost at
the end! You're about to do this miraculous thing called giving birth,
and a whole new life is about to become visible to you. So, if you
have support around you, draw upon it, and commit to continue on until
you're through it. I've learned to apply that thought to so many areas
of my life! Many, many times I'm learning something or growing in some
way, and I'll reach a point where I think There's NO WAY I can do
this! This is hard! and I'll think I'm against a wall... then I
remember... ah, transition! And I'll draw upon the support around me,
and commit to continuing on until ah-ha! A whole new aspect of life,
visible before me.
Maybe 6-8 months is a typical transition time for deschooling
families? I honestly don't remember, either. BUT, I know if you commit
to continue, commit to honor your child's path, even if it looks
*nothing* like you thought it would, you'll break through, and there
it will be, this whole new life, right in front of you.
Umm... wow. Colleen, you started this journey for a reason. I can tell you, having been around many unschooling families, and many radically unschooled teens, that the teens I know just do not have the same issues that conventionally parented teens have. There is no talking back, because there's listening, and coming to mutual solutions. There may be some hormonally engendered disrespect, but that's tempered by the fact that you have developed a strong relationship - and you can see it for what it is. And I haven't actually seen much of that - but I get hormonal and cranky, I'm guessing other humans do, too.
I so agree with JJ - it's not a cafeteria, please choose our side situation - but it IS a choice: if you want a peaceful, respectful, fulfilling relationship with your son, then you can listen to those of us that have that. If you want more control, anger, fights and angst, listen to those that have that. It IS all or nothing, if you're talking about radical unschooling. You either trust or you don't. I don't mean you need to get it NOW by any means - but you can make choices every day, that either lead to peace, or distress.
Is there any way at all you can make the Live & Learn conference? Or any of the ones in May? It is SO powerful to see in person these mythical happy unschooled teens, being free. Being respectful. Conversing with other teens, adults and young kids, without regard to whether it's *cool* or not. And I think Jerry would get a lot out of going, too. Even though Evan had hung out with other unschoolers, the connections he made at L&L let him know we weren't *really* freaks. It helped him settle into who he is, because everyone is SO accepting.
Whew - maybe she needs to change this blog's name to "Save Me From Unschooling Before I Go Too Far!"
Does she come to your churching and/or schooling blogs and try to win you over to her "clique?"
No? Then why do you come here? Seriously.
Sorry - I just had to comment to this:
"Colleen, if you are rethinking your own attraction to unschooling and you follow the kinds of advice you're hearing from mothers who don't think it works, can you guess where you'll wind up?
And what if instead, you follow the travel plans proferred by unschooling moms like Holly and me, Stephanie and Nance? Isn't it like you'll wind up in a completely different place?"
First off, what is this? A high school cafeteria? Are you serious? This is how you offer advice to a confused parent?
How about trying to speak from your own personal experience? How about taking "ideals" out of the equation and just talk from the heart.
And for the record...I am an unschooling Mom and just like Colleen, I'm new to this.
But unschooling is not an all or nothing deal...life is not an all or nothing deal.
Let the woman decide for herself what advice she is going to take instead of trying to convince her that she belongs in your clique instead of with us losers.
I also wanted to add that I never touted "how much I know" only that I have to figure after 51 years of life, I know a thing or 2 more than my 13 year old. And that I have a little more experience on my side than he does.
Colleen, I hope you will not limit yourself only to the advice of unschooling moms, but find what works for you and Jerry even if it comes from those of us who don't consider what we do to be unschooling families.
Okay, first let me say that I have no problem with being disagreed with.
However, I did not say that I disagree with non-coercive parenting...just that I merely don't fully understand it.
I raised a child to eighteen before I had ever heard of unschooling and child geared learning and non-coercive parenting etc. (And it's certainly not how I was raised.)
All of this is just as much a learning experience for me.
Also, I am not some sort of monster who looks for opportunities to "punish" my children and I do go to great lengths to communicate honestly with my kids in all things.
I based my advice to Colleen on my personal experience not a philosophy or theory.
And sorry to say, but when your kid knows better and continues to be disrepctful to you - no amount of "your hurting Mommy's feelings when you do that" will stop them from doing it.
At that point you might as well just hand over a little white flag and prepare yourself to be walked on by your little darling for the next 7 or 8 years.
I also think it is rather intolerant for people to imply that any other form of parenting other than non-coercive is somehow bullying and abusing your child.
I hardly think that serves to comfort a parent who has traditionally parented for most of their child's life and is now confused about how to handle a new phase in their relationship.
Colleen, I sincerely apologize if anything I wrote only served to further your confusion.
My words were an effort to alievate the pressure you're under, not make it worse.
You have to do what YOU think is best. What anyone else thinks really doesn't matter.
If JJ Ross, who is obviously older and wiser than I, would have taken more time to read my comment and less time to be nasty in her response, she would have seen that no where do I advocate punishment, just limits and structure.
We all have to deal with limits and structure in our day to day lives, why would we raise our children to believe otherwise? And as I stated in my post, even just to co-exist as a family, there needs to be some ground rules about how we treat each other and expect to be treated in return.
As the Eliums put it: it's about functioning as a group with the parents as coleaders, instead of a collection of individuals where the children are consumers and parents are the childcare providers. If the child is a consumer, they grow up feeling entitled, like they should get things without working for them. And underneath it, they feel guilty because they know that something's wrong.
JJ Ross's response just reinforces my belief that unschooling is not the answer for my family.
"I'm all confused and wishing I had my own personal guide every second of the day to tell me how to make it to the non-coercive side"
I am with you on that one !!!!!
can send love and hugs but not in any way qualified to give advice,still on the road to enlightenment myself )xxxx
Okay, so I'm younger than 51... and my very unqualified opinion is this: If you're stuck, then maybe it's time to re-evaluate, re-think and see where it takes you.
While I'm not a fan of punishing and such, I'll have to say that I grew up being punished quite a bit. And no, the relationship between myself and my parents is not damaged. Quite the contrary. My mother is my best friend. My dad is the greatest dad any kid/woman could ask for.
Do I raise my kids the way I was raised? Nope! And sometimes I'm stuck too. Such is life. It never gets boring.
Btw, I am older than the 51-year-old mom commenting above about how much she knows and how therefore she should lay down the and the limits for the young, because she knows so much. Made me laugh thinking that the real secret to being older and wiser is knowing better than THAT!
I study power of story. We in our unschooling are all about power of story.
For example, "free reign" struck me as an idea we could examine in this context. It might seem a small thing but embedding in its story are beliefs about the very Nature of Man.
First, the usual spelling is "free rein" which literally means -- nothing like unschooling! -- to take a systematically broken, trained, gussied, harnessed and bit-wearing beast of burden and just temporarily loose the master's driving hand on the reins.
"Giving the horse his head" in this way is certainly not anything like actual freedom and sovereignty. The master is in complete control of the whole relationship and will withdraw the limited moment of so generously allowing the horse to have its own head.
It's more like closely supervised recess at compulsory school, for about 20 minutes if the boy is lucky.
So a horse's half hour of "free rein" doesn't happen until the horse has been thoroughly schooled, is no real form of freedom or self-determination, and literally doesn't even take place between members of the same species! -- it is a subjugating relationship, much like forms of human employment used to be. Certainly not natural, free, powerful, wild, autonomous, and certainly nothing like unschooling.
On top of which, I marvel at this comtemporary alternate use "free reign" racheting up our culture's unexamined assumptions about the imperative to control kids like animals, lest they "run roughshod" (another domesticated horsey metaphor) over parents and teachers and society. A child with "free rein" used to be a worrisome enough implication, a cautionary tale against permissiveness -- but now the fear is darker yet, a sovereign child! Ill-equipped yet with free REIGN! Ruling not just himself but his home and family, a child king, dictating by whim, a destructive reign for the whole kingdom and himself. It's a world gone mad!
(Historically there actually was a Mad King, come to think of it, King Ludwig, wonder if that all gets mixed into the power of this child-control story somehow, too?)
Colleen, if you are rethinking your own attraction to unschooling and you follow the kinds of advice you're hearing from mothers who don't think it works, can you guess where you'll wind up?
And what if instead, you follow the travel plans proferred by unschooling moms like Holly and me, Stephanie and Nance? Isn't it like you'll wind up in a completely different place?
This isn't about the inherent behavior problems of children, how they must be disciplined out of their faults and foolishness. Unless you believe it IS, in which case it will be.
It really is that simple. We create our own reality, which is a tremendously powerful truth.
I'm an older Mom with a 13 yo (also homeschooling, not having embraced the moniker of unschooling, more eclectic, IMO.) I tend to side with Sherri. I figure that at 51, I've got a little more perspective and experience under my belt than my 13 year old and part of being his parent is to lay down some ground rules of not only how to exist in our family unit but how to exist in this world. And while I struggle always to make him feel that he is heard, free reign is not an option.
I remember reading "Raising a Son" by Don Elium and his talking about limits. I will paraphrase and just say that what Don says is boys need limits -- they need to know what the rules are, who sets them and how those rules are reinforced. I'd have to grab my book for the exact terms he uses so forgive me for the translation.
I don't have the time at the moment to go into everything he says but you can read some of it for yourself here: http://www.raisingafamily.com/
fa...fatherhood.html
It's written with a father's perspective but has some great points for mothers as well.
Just so you know, I'm in the same boat at the moment and dealing with so many issues with my son, so I do feel for you and appreciate and respect your honesty of sharing all this on your blog. I don't know if I could bring myself to verbalize some of the fears I have for my son growing up in this world as it is today.
One of the things Don says on his website is this --
Don Elium: It's very hard. The first thing you want to see in your child is a reflection of yourself. The second thing you want to see is them doing the things you never got to do.
The biggest mistake a parent can make is raising your children the way you were raised. The second biggest mistake is raising the children the opposite of the way you were raised. Why? Because with either of those methods, you're not really listening to what the kids need, which could be some of what you got and some of what you didn't get. If you listen to what kids need, they show you the way.
Q: So what is it that kids need?
Don Elium: The Number One need is to be loved and appreciated for the unique person they are. The Number Two need is to belong. When a family discusses, uses everyone input, and does things together, that fills the need to belong. But it's not just about the kids' needs, it's about asking "What does this family need, including me, right now?"
Ok, too much and too long and I apologize for that -- gotta run and get my younger one up for school.
Hope things improve for you.
Best,
Susan
i'm right there with you. somedays are so incredibly difficult. how are you working on getting yourself unstuck so that you can be where you want to be? would love to hear what others are doing.
What Holly said . . .in spades . . .
Sorry, I have to disagree with Sheri there. The way I see it, if I'm ever in the position of having to tell my child what to do, then I better have a damn good reason for it - not just 'that's the way it is.' In fact, when I look at our daily interactions (as an unschooling family) I am almost never in that position. There's always time and room to take her needs and desires into account. Parenting is not about controlling another person or getting my way. It's about working together and making compromises and showing each other that we care enough to do that. Punishment, in my opinion, is a form of bullying. It's a way of showing someone that you have power over them. You may think you're teaching your child a lesson, but what the child is really learning is that you don't think they're worth the time and effort to try and see things from their point of view and work through it in a positive and productive way. In the end it damages your relationship. Colleen, have you read 'Unconditional Parenting' by Alfie Kohn? If not, you should definitely check that out. It's a very reassuring and inspirational book.
*h
Think of it more as a partnership, you are learning and growing together. There has to be mutual respect and give and take.
Sorry to have to be the one to break this to you...(not to dismiss any advice JJ is willing to offer)
There is no effective guide to parenting a teenager. You just gotta do the best you can.
Of course the grisly details would help, but I don't want to pressure you...I know how traumatizing these experiences can be.
At the end of the day, he's not a little kid anymore and if you think he should know better, then he should.
(Of course, I'm surmising here...you really didn't give me much work with.)
If you think that his behaviour warrants "traditional" parenting (ie...removal of privileges, extra chores etc...) then so be it.
I'm not sure I totally understand the whole non-coercive parenting to begin with.
I mean, I get the theory but after 20 years of parenting, I'm not so sure it's all that practical.
Sometimes you just gotta tell your kids what to do because that's the way it is.
Hope this rambling helps.
You rang?
Take a deep breath and enjoy the fabulous beauty around and the memories that you are building together as a family. Jerry will come to appreciate the memories and the efforts that are made. Non-coercive parenting is a goal worth attaining; wish I knew the secret. I do think that mutual respect and understanding may be a key; but he is 12 and growing into his own person.
Hugs from Sacramento
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