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Jocelyn, it is his wedding, it's his marriage and he's going to have to live it the way he thinks it's appropriate. Perhaps it's the groom's father that needs some flexibility?
Brian, it his wedding but they're not paying the lion's share of making it. But even if they were, this is about showing respect for the man who you say you love. Since this is our only 'must have' I think it's pretty selfish of two young people to expect a 79 year old man to compromise his values.
well not for nothin' but it's THEIR wedding - so unless YOU are paying for the food I don't see how you have any real say in the matter
sure it would be great if they wanted it the way you want it... but apparently that's not the case
you say: "We have always made our affairs kosher and don't see any reason to stop now..."
but the fact of the matter is it's NOT actually YOUR affair...
there now that THAT is settled... next chapter please!! 
but Allen isn't orthodox so not eating kosher that day isn't really compromising HIS values, right!! it's no different than any other day
how about offering kosher for the people who require it? I'm sure there is a kosher caterer who could do just those meals - if it's THAT important to you guys you could see to it that their food is kept separate
kitty, I think we were typing and posting at the same time, cuz you missed what I said to Brian. We *are* paying for the food, but it's their attitude that's upsetting more than anything. Think of Fiddler on the Roof when Tevya says he can't bend anymore or he'll break. Allan has that sort of feeling.
kitty, those meals are usually awful. They come in like frozen dinners and that's how they're served to maintain the kosher integrity...not attractive. And it singles those guests out as 'different' - I hate doing that to people. The whole purpose of having it kosher is that *everyone* can eat and be comfortable. Remember I said this is difficult to explain?
no I mean a REAL kosher CATERER - if you can have an entire event catered kosher with decent food surely you can get a small amount of good real kosher meals catered
again not for nothin but ANYONE who has dietary restrictions might from time to time have to feel a little 'different' - that's just life
BUT if you guys are paying for the food I would say 'we're doing it kosher OR you can feel free to find another way to pay for the food' - that seems fair to me
it's not like you're asking for weird ethnic food...
Jocelyn, I hate to say what everyone else is saying because I can see you're not happy about it, but it IS their wedding and not your business how they want to handle the money you are helping them with. 
Allen is not Tevya, this is not the 1800's, this is 2009. Do you never go to events where there are orthodox and kosher people there?
If you do, what do you do then?
Is the question really getting a supervisor for kosher or that Leah doesn't want ALL supervised and kosher food at her wedding? Since she has suggested the frozen meals, it sounds like it isn't that she doesn't want ANY kosher food, just not all.
Since you are paying for the food and this is so important to you and Allen, get a supervisor to cook fresh kosher food for you guys and anyone else kosher and then a regular caterer for the foods Leah and Mark and the other non-kosher guests would like to have.
I've gone through two weddings in the last couple of years as you know, both my kids`got married.
It is NOT worth it to create this kind of drama. It is THEIR wedding, despite you helping with money. It's very nice of you to offer money but telling them what exactly to do with it is way over the line. There is enough drama with weddings without this kind of thing, I know, I stayed way in the background as much as I could and there was STILL lots of drama to be had. Don't add to it over something that won't mean much years from now.
Cory has still not forgiven her mother for insisting on so many things that Cory didn't want. She insisted on cooking herself, which Cory didn't want. She insisted on the venue, which Cory didn't want. They fought over the her dress, they fought over a lot of stuff.
Cory ended up having the kind of wedding she wasn't that thrilled with and no bride should ever have to say that.
You and Leah are going to have a relationship for a long long time. Save the battles for something much more important than food at their wedding. Like how often her nice, understanding in-laws will see the grandchildren.
kitty & Amber, if it were only that easy. When you bring a kosher caterer into a non kosher facility, that kitchen becomes off limits to regular food preparation, as the kosher caterers have to bring in *everything* up to and including their own ovens. I'm not talking about places that have separate kosher kitchens because frankly the kids didn't like any of those places. That would have made life easier for all of us.
Anyway...because of bringing everything in, the costs are considerable as you can imagine, and of course the kitchen is then able to only produce kosher meals. So it's one or the other I'm afraid.
This shouldn't have been an issue in the first place. Mark grew up in our home and knows how we do things - it isn't like we pulled this out of the air. It's the ONLY thing we've put our foot down about and we're the ones paying for it. As for the rest, when we had Leah's father and his gf here for dinner last Friday, and we were discussing costs and details, I told her I thought she was nickel and dimeing herself and I didn't want her to do that. She seemed relieved to hear that. We want them to have a beautiful day that's memorable for all the right reasons.
This argument isn't about kosher food as much as it's about money. *sigh* There is no question that having a kosher affair will cost more and Leah would rather have that money to spend on other things, while we just disagree. I can't explain it any better than that. There is one possible alternative, and that would be to serve fish. The only problem with that is - Mark hates fish and won't eat it. Does the groom have to eat at his own wedding? LOL.
why can't the kosher food be made in a kosher kitchen and brought in?
if that's not an option than I say you tell them either it's kosher or they'll have to find another way to pay for the food
Well, you certainly have the option of pulling out your money. But is that something you really want to do?
Remember, your son is being pressured from 2 sides right now. Who should he go along with? His parents or his bride?
To be clear, I'm not siding with him (or them). I'm just trying to show you the other perspective.
kitty, keeping kosher ain't easy or simple. *grins* That's why anyone who wants to convert to Judaism deserves a medal...and needs to have their head examined. lol.
Now I'll try to answer your question, and please remember that I'm not the one with all the jewish education. Allan where are you when I need you!
We can't just bring in a few dinners. What would they be served on? No kosher caterer will allow plates and cutlery etc. out of their supervision [nor are they allowed to] because they don't know what they will be exposed to. And the kosher keeping guests wouldn't accept those meals as kosher for the same reason. Those airline style meals are sealed for that reason.
Is that as clear as mud now?
What's really interesting is that I have a feeling if Mark were marrying a gentile girl this wouldn't be a problem and she would be trying really hard to respect our wishes in this area. Just a thought.
Does that mean you cannot eat at a non-kosher restaurant or a gentile wedding or anyplace like that?
"ask what's his name - he'll tell you" - uhm, you weren't referring to *me* by any chance, were you?
I have a very different take on all this. I don't think it's about money and I don't think it's about kosher food.
I think it's about power: the dynamics of female relationships, who gets and retains Mark's deepest affections and who has the power to make decisions about the wedding. I suspect if it wasn't about kosher food it would happen over something else; anything else.
You can't ask, expect, or assume that Mark knows better and should say something - that's not fair to him. Of course he knows the situations BUT he's in a no win situation: if he supports Leah then he risks alientating your and I's affection and disappointing the 2 of you. If he backs you and I then he'll always be a "momma's boy" in Leah's eyes - she has probably told him, more than once, to cut the umbilical cord, "man up" and stand up to his parents. So he says and does little [but probably quietly prays that this will somehow resolve itself...but he knows better].
I'm not sure that there's gonna be an easy, fair, or amicable resolution to the wedding preps. Shrink wrapped airline meals [with accompanying plastic plate and cutlery] is just insulting to those who follow dietary laws; not serving kosher food [besides being a "hard limit" for you] means some people will not attend [and will cause you awkwardness because you'll have to tell them in advance that they are welcome to attend but don't touch the food].
Is there a way out? I think so. I think you need to be creative without "submitting". Accept that she has to have control over the menu - and tell her so [it is HER day]. And you have to let her know [again] that it's not about the money or the food - it's about being inclusive and making sure everyone feels comfortable equally participating - the weirdness of servers delivering shrink wrapped meals will set those recipients apart from others and may lead to unnecessary questions, embarassment, and awkwardness. If everyone has the same meal and plating then everyone's being treated equitably.
So here's my suggestion - why not have a "green" wedding. Minimize your footprint. Serve vegetarian food; organic even [kosher of course]; there's lots being done with tofu and other products - most have the kosher symbol. Have the invitations printed on recycled paper; use local in-season flowers...you get the point. She gets to show of how progressive and earth friendly she is and you get a kosher simcha.
I like what Lev says and I think there is truth to that.
As to my question, I think it was worded badly; obviously you cannot eat at non-kosher restaurants or eat food at gentile weddings. I mean, I'm assuming. So I guess I was trying to ask, what *do* you do in situations where there isn't a choice? Do you just not eat at all? Do you not attend gentile weddings because the food is not kosher? Are there exemptions? I'm just curious, the whole kosher thing is a topic I know next to nothing about.
Also, you said if Leah were gentile, you think she'd be more understanding. I don't know about that; I know that planning the food at my wedding would be *very* important for me if I had gotten a chance to really plan my wedding. When I was 18 the first time, I didn't care because I was so young and I let the older women decide all that for me.
Then when Dan I are married, we just reserved a room at a nearby restaurant afterwards and everyone ordered what they pleased.
But Lucy, my daughter, wanted what she wanted. She met with several top caterers for our area and ended up hiring a chef who had done events for Arnold Schwarzenegger and some other famous people I can't remember now. Not that she's a fan of the Govenator, just that the chef has some serious catering rep and that kind of thing is important to *her*. It wouldn't have been to me, but it wasn't my wedding; it was hers.
Anyway, the food at her wedding was THE most expensive part of it and her wedding was quite expensive overall, in every way. Again, not the way I would have had it but it was her wedding. Oh she made sure she had foods for both vegetarians and carnivores but other than that, she chose the menu that she wanted.
Her husband's family is Jewish, although I'm guessing they are not kosher since I never heard a word about it and I didn't see any trays brought in. *Anywho* I can tell you right now what Lucy would have said if her husband's parents would have tried to dictate the menu on behalf of any family that WAS kosher.
They would have gotten a gracious but very firm, "no". As it was, she shot down their requests for some other ideas that were traditional for his family's side, like the chair thing. Which I so TOTALLY wanted them to do but Lucy said no to all that kind of stuff, too.
And I guarantee you that if Jake had tried to pressure her in favor of his parents' requests...I don't know that they would have gotten married. As Lev says, I think she would have lost all respect for Jake.
And it wasn't just Jake's parents' requests; I got shot down on some of mine, too. Which again was her call, although I was disappointed a little.
So...I don't know about your musing that a gentile girl would be more acquiescent than Leah is being. I haven't noticed most brides being very open to input on their weddings from anyone, period; no matter what the religion is or the relationship is.
Okaaay. *taking a deep breath* I think you guys really are getting some wrong impressions. The ONLY demand - if you want to use that word, that Allan and I have made, is that the couple use a kosher caterer. That's it.
The top kosher caterer in the city caters at all four of the venues they are considering. But it definitely will be more expensive than serving non kosher food - no question about that. The caterer does gorgeous work. It's not as though we're forcing them to serve hot dogs [sorry kitty. lol] and french fries. We don't want to dictate the menu. Leah's a pretty level headed girl and I really don't think she'll go crazy but we're willing to risk it.
They aren't paying for the wedding so I think we're allowed 'some' input in an area that matters a great deal to my husband. We won't threaten to withdraw money...wow, I hope the situation doesn't sink to that level. What they first panicked about wasn't the food, it was the choice of venues. They thought they wouldn't be able to have their choice of any of the places they wanted if they had to use a kosher caterer and instead of checking, made a huge fuss. After Leah's sister [a former wedding planner] informed her otherwise] and Leah made a phone call, that issue was resolved and everything was fine until she started getting prices and realized how much more money a kosher affair was going to cost. She thought there was x dollars to spend and if we had to spend so much more on food then there would be that much less to spend on everything else. WE never told her that, but we finally found out that contrary to what he told us on Friday, her father told Leah there are x number of dollars coming from him and that's it. Now we understand! We might end up reaching a little deeper into our pockets it's true, but if that's what it will take to make them happy and I guess make us happy too, then that's what we'll have to do.
phew. And we haven't even met her mother yet. o_0 !
Amber, when Allan and I got married he told me he wanted a kosher home. His parents were alive as were my grandparents and he has as I've mentioned before, Orthodox cousins, and none of those people would have eaten in our house if it hadn't been kosher. We wanted a home that everyone could eat in and we also wanted to bring our children up knowing about their heritage.
Now, do Allan and I keep kosher outside of the house? No, we don't. Is that hypocritical? Yes, it is. Everyone finds the accomodation that works for them. Allan could go back to his Orthodox roots very easily. I don't come from that background and haven't the slightest desire to live that kind of life.
You asked what happens at gentile affairs when observant Jews are invited. Those dreaded airline meals! That's if the celebrants notify their caterer that there will be X number of Orthodox Jews attending and the catering people presumably know their job. Allan and I have been the object of misguided segregatiion
Allan and I have been the object of misguided segregation a couple of times [once was at a Muslim wedding - that's a whole other story] and we felt soo embarrassed and everything else that Lev discussed, not to mention how terrible the food was. {shudder}
Lev, no, you weren't 'what's his name'- Allan was. Would I risk being that disrespectful? Allan on the other hand, doesn't come here.
As usual you have a wonderful grasp of the situation, except I really don't want him tied to me. But he does need to step up and stop being her sub! It makes me insane when she doms him and he just lies back and lets her. ARGGGHHHH! As my husband keeps telling me...he must like it. I guess.
I love the idea of a green wedding! I'm going to drop it into the conversation during Shabbat dinner tomorrow and see what the response is.
Beyond that, I'm butting out. I really am not a meddler and I hope to follow my MiL's lead.
"I'm going to keep my mouth closed and my pocketbook open."
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