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a few pops??!! sounds like a surefire way to get a few principles sued or their asses beat.
steve n | Homepage | 10.09.06 - 9:28 pm | #

A big fan??? This guy is entirely TOOOO enthusiastic.

How is hitting people with pieces of wood not assault?
marie | 10.09.06 - 9:34 pm | #

That is f*cking ridiculous.

I bet students learn a lot from betting smacked around by an authoritarian.
Original Bill | 10.09.06 - 9:34 pm | #

If you ever want to find out what smacking a kid around really does to that child's psyche, I suggest you read the esteemed Dr. Alice Miller.
http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php
HillCountryGal | Homepage | 10.09.06 - 9:41 pm | #

I'll bet he's a big fan. Probably gets a woodie doing it.
ralph | Homepage | 10.09.06 - 9:43 pm | #

I sat on a search committee to hire a new principal for an elementary school in Illinois....about 1988. One of the candidates came from a school district that still used the paddle. He was "pro-paddle." There was a little used Illinois law that allowed for it. Needless to say, he didn't get the job.
QuestionGirl | Homepage | 10.09.06 - 9:46 pm | #

I got paddled in junior high once, and it didn't scar me for life. It was, however, a thrill for the so-called "teacher" who did it, because he got enjoyment out of humiliating kids.

To this day, I hate him...and this happened a long time ago.
Anonymous | 10.09.06 - 9:46 pm | #

John Aravosis beat his queer cat. Should he be placed in Beat Thy Cat counseling?
Shelton | 10.09.06 - 9:46 pm | #

I went to school in ireland and despite it being illegal we daily got the crap beaten out of us, age 8-12 was the worst school.

I'm talking a grown man bouncing a fist off the side of your head if you were spotted talking in class, Worst I saw was a 12 year old lifted off the ground by a slap. The terror on that kids face looking up at the teacher is somethingI wont forget. A school I later attended had a kid (small for his age) held out a 2nd floor window by his ears. I wish I was joking. He needed stitches by the time that was over.

The thing is all that never improved discipline. The attitude became one of, if your going to take a beating anyway, you might as well do something to deserve it. Its amazing what kids can get used too.
mr moo | 10.09.06 - 9:51 pm | #

Yeah, well, one of the teachers at my Jr. High went batshit insane one day and jumped up and started chocking the one kid who was actually paying attention. Oh, and it was the new kid's first day at our school, too.
That teacher was promptly hauled off to what they then called the "Insane Asylum." Never heard from him again.
HillCountryGal | Homepage | 10.09.06 - 9:54 pm | #

When I was in Jr. High in the 60's it was a badge of honor to get hauled into the hallway and get your ass beat by the teacher who had a custom made hickory paddle with one inch holes drilled into it. The girls thought our checkered ass look cute and the dudes gave you respect if you did not holler out. That's what we need today, more whuppings of young punks.
Shelton | 10.09.06 - 9:59 pm | #

Murray A Strauss' books. He's a leading researcher on corporal punishment in America. Also, did you know that 94% of kids are hit, there is not one state which outlaws hitting of children. That the reason parents think talking doesn't work is because they have to repeat it, but here's the funny thing. You have to repeat hitting the kids too. on avg 9 times for each moethod. So, both are about equally effective except hitting leaves emotional scars.
mike shawe | 10.09.06 - 9:59 pm | #

Shelton
Give me abreak. Hitting children is ineffective and barbaric. we're in the 21st century here.
mike shawe | 10.09.06 - 10:00 pm | #

Give me abreak. Hitting children is ineffective and barbaric. we're in the 21st century here.
mike shawe | 10.09.06 - 10:00 pm | #
---------------------------------
Yeah. School shootings, rapes, murders, drugs, illiteracy, 75% drop-out rates, metal detectors, cops on campus, lockdowns .... shall I go on? And you're worried about a few "pops"? Give ME a break!
Shelton | 10.09.06 - 10:07 pm | #

Republicans are soooooo kinky . . .

Waiting for more revelations on the congressional leather-daddy/silverback gorilla musk nexus
David Charles | 10.09.06 - 10:07 pm | #

Anyone ever get revenge? I saw one person interviewed on TV who bumped into his tormenter on the street years later. The guy was in his 20's, the Brother (it was a religous teaching order renowned for its cruelty) about 50. Anyway he beat the crap out of him and made sure to identify himself to the Brother. He said he felt cured better than all the therapy he had.
mr moo | 10.09.06 - 10:08 pm | #

They still had corporal punishment when I was in elementary school. When I was in the second grade I was, apparently, a little monster. One day my teacher had enough of me being off in my own little world, quietly drawing intricate cartoons while she was lecturing. She decided I needed a dose of the favorite corporal punishment of the day. I remember being rudely yanked out of my reverie when she grabbed my arm, roughly jerked me to a standing position and seated herself in my chair. The hand that wasn't occuppied in administering the Grip'O'Death on my right arm grasped a ping-pong paddle, the instrument of vengence and smiting.

As she pulled me inward, to my planned doom, I remember getting the clearest picture in my mind of the Lone Ranger taking down the bad guys with his fists. As soon as the idea was in my head I acted on it. I reared back and, in my best cowboy style, I gave her a full rounding Lone Ranger left hook. Put the full 42 pounds of me into it. I can still see, all of it in slow-motion, her head jerking back, her glasses flying through the air - tumbling end-over-end, the chair tipping over and her going with it . She ended up lying on her back with her legs spread and straight in the air. She roused herself and got up only to see me dancing around her , showing her my fancy footwork - in the best traditions of the Three Stooges, little fists up, ready to hit or block, inviting her to have a taste of round two. She didn't accept the invitation. She just slowly got up in a daze, gave me back my chair and said something to the effect of "that will be all". That was the last beating I ever got in school.

Today, it would probably get me a one-way trip to GITMO, condemned as an illegal enemy combatant.

If a teacher ever laid a hand on a child of mine, there is no doubt, I would hurt that person. Badly.
Paul | 10.09.06 - 10:10 pm | #

Shelton the few pops dont make any difference.

The kid I saw take the worst beatings is currently in prison. When you have already had the worst that can be dished out to you, you know you can take anything they can throw at you.
mr moo | 10.09.06 - 10:10 pm | #

I saw one person interviewed on TV who bumped into his tormenter on the street years later.
mr moo | 10.09.06 - 10:08 pm | #
-------------------------------------
Yeah, I saw that too. Jerry Springer episode #326.
Shelton | 10.09.06 - 10:11 pm | #

The Ugly Truth about corporal punishment: Beating kids has no demonstrable deterrent effect on delinquent or bad behavior.
In fact, it may have the opposite effect.
If you look at it, many of the same regions and populations that embrace the rod the most, are also the ones that suffer the highest rates of delinquency, truancy, and all around bad behavior.

I have taught classes to adult students in both inner city and small town classrooms, and this discussion always seems to go the same way. "We don't beat our kids enough, that's the problem." But it doesn't work.

Speaking as someone who was beat relentlessly as a child and adolescent, I can tell you that it made me fantasize about revenge, and seek out bad behavior to strike back.

And I learned that the only way to solve problems was thru violence, so I started beating the crap out of my little brother for a while until I matured.

So keep beating your kids, fools, and we get the society we deserve.

BB
Anonymous | 10.09.06 - 10:14 pm | #

If we don't paddle them in school they wont be ready to put on uniforms and fight in Iraqmire. It's just training republican style.
Bangkok-Bob | Homepage | 10.09.06 - 10:22 pm | #

Our fundamentalists are the same as theirs (the Taliban)... corporal punishment is good for the soul/community. We live in a crazy, irrational world, folks.
JustWords | 10.09.06 - 10:31 pm | #

The authoritarian parenting mode is back in full force. Schools have become intolerant and paranoid. It's small wonder that people keep things bottled up until they explode.

Guns are easily available. Where did that kid who just took an assult rifle to school get his, or for that matter the wacko who shot the Amish students? Were they legally acquired? These are the questions I keep waiting in vain for the news media to answer.
Snowball | Homepage | 10.09.06 - 10:31 pm | #

I went to school in Ft. Worth, at Wedgewood Middle school, and when I was there corporal punishment was administered. I had moved to Texas from Oregon and was shocked to find out, after getting in a scuffle with another kid, that we would both receive 5 pops for our infraction.
He cried, I didn't and felt I'd won the fight. That being said, I'm not sure how I feel about it. I got lots of pops the follwing 8 months and thought it was way easier than getting a lecture, get wrote up, 3 pops and the long way back to class.I think the main thing for most kids was the embarassment not the pain.
mike | 10.09.06 - 10:35 pm | #

I cant count the number of times I was paddled in school. But I also wrestled, boxed, played football and rugby.

Do you think it was the paddling that drove me to these violent contact sports? Or do you think the violent contact sports drove me to getting paddled?
go1 | 10.09.06 - 10:35 pm | #

If I ever heard about a teacher hitting my kid, I'd find that teacher and teach him a few things.
Clavis | 10.09.06 - 10:36 pm | #

Clavis: my kid (thank God now out of college and off my payroll!) never got paddled. They were real big on running laps and writing essays.... he was a fairly good kid (esp. for a single mom working a lot of jobs to pay the rent) and I'm in the deep South... Just glad they were a little more enlightened in this neighborhood....
JustWords | 10.09.06 - 10:42 pm | #

If I ever heard about a teacher hitting my kid, I'd find that teacher and teach him a few things.
Clavis | 10.09.06 - 10:36 pm | #

I suspect that reaction is why most schools did away with physical punishment.

Good lord some parents are crazy enough without their kid having been beaten without their consent.

You think school violence is bad now just wait till the child of some loon with combat training is beaten and he opens up on the teachers room with a semi-auto.
CD | 10.09.06 - 10:44 pm | #

anyone hits my kid with anything they're getting DESTROYED!
DKarma | 10.09.06 - 10:47 pm | #

Anyone ever get revenge? I saw one person interviewed on TV who bumped into his tormenter on the street years later.
mr moo | 10.09.06 - 10:08 pm | #

Kind of sounds like the movie "Sleepers". Except the childhood abuse in that movie went way beyond paddling.
Jay Billington | 10.09.06 - 10:50 pm | #

I live in Tennessee and I know personally that there are schools here where students are paddled over the most stupid of incidences. I even got the feeling that the teacher enjoyed doing it. They can be very sadistic.
Kenton F | 10.09.06 - 10:53 pm | #

Usually, when I was in school, I was given a choice.

I could go to detention for a couple hours after school, or I could take 3 pops. It was usually for some dumb prank.

It was my choice. I always chose the pops. Over in 5 minutes, as was any pain associated with it, and my dues to society were paid. I never gave it a 2nd thought, and always was thankful that the vice-principal would give me that choice. I hated detention. I don't feel like it harmed me in any way, but it certainly didn't help me either.

But anyway, I don't think any punishment (detention or pops) changes behavior in the long run. Only positive reinforcement actually changes behavior. But sometimes its very difficult to find the proper positive reinforcement to address the behavior of some of the things kids do (sex in the bathrooms and/or stairwells, drugs, fights, shootings).
go1 | 10.09.06 - 10:54 pm | #

Two words: Gun locks

But Joe Redneck would rather buy a new prop for his bass boat.
deletebush | 10.09.06 - 10:54 pm | #

f our children... if we can't get our parenting "right"... what good are the f'ing children?
being ruled is fun! | 10.09.06 - 10:59 pm | #

I also think that parents have become WAY overprotective of their kids. We live in a world of fear now that didn't exist when I grew up.

I dont think we ever locked our doors (and I lived in a fairly large city), didn't wear seatbelts, rode in the back of pickup trucks, got paddled, played outside without adult supervision in elementary school, rode our bikes to friend's houses and stayed out till past dark in elementary school. Its amazing I lived.

As an example of how bad parents get, just look at the behavior of some parents at little league games when something happens to their kids.

I coach a 6yr old soccer team, and one of the kids shoved another kid to the ground while jockeying for position at practice, and the dad of the kid who got pushed down sprinted onto the field, placed his finger about 2 inches from the face of the other kid, and started yelling at this kid. I was thanking God that the parent of the other kid wasn't present at the time, or there may have been a much larger problem.

Its amazing how fearful we have become of our kids, compared to how it was not too long ago.
go1 | 10.09.06 - 11:02 pm | #

i don't think you're brain works... if it did... you wouldn't have any more questions.
being ruled is fun! | 10.09.06 - 11:11 pm | #

We slaughter Iraqi families, carpet-bomb Afghan villages, and beat our children with clubs in their schools.
You've got to weep for this fucking country.
woj | Homepage | 10.09.06 - 11:11 pm | #

People need to wake up. This is legal and common in about half the states in the US. In states like Arkansas and Texas the stories are appalling of what happens to the children, and disproportionately male and disproportionately black, not that anyone should ever be hit for any reason. People who are against this have to be vocal.
swinger24 | 10.09.06 - 11:22 pm | #

"You! Yes, you! Stand still laddy!"

When we grew up and went to school
There were certain teachers who would
Hurt the children in any way they could

"OOF!" [someone being hit]

By pouring their derision
Upon anything we did
And exposing every weakness
However carefully hidden by the kids
But in the town, it was well known
When they got home at night, their fat and
Psychopathic wives would thrash them
Within inches of their lives.

The Happiest Days of our Lives
Pink Floyd: The Wall

Thank you Roger Waters.
burningbush | 10.09.06 - 11:31 pm | #

If a teacher were to hit my kids (I have two) I would not resort to violence. I would use several other methods that he might find interesting. Like suing his ass. Like suing the school, the district, and the principal. Like contacting the police and the DA and testing whether assault is really a crime everywhere except in school. Like seeing to it that every parent, every news outlet,every fricken person knew who that teacher was and what they had done. No, I would not resort to violence-no matter how tempting. But, I would see to it that it was the last time that it happened to any kid in that district.
rkh | 10.09.06 - 11:35 pm | #

Probably the funniest thing that ever happend at my middle school was when a 7th grader tried to pick a fight with a teacher. The teacher was a jerk but he was also a x-marine and a big guy.

He just stood his ground as the welp punched him in the stomach.

After a few hit the kid seemed to realize he had bitten off WAY more than he could chew.

The teacher picked him up by the belt and shirt collor tosted him out the door leaned back in to bark "stay!" at the class and then order the little thug "march!"

There was no question they were heading for the principles office.

The kid was lucky though if that teacher could have beaten him he'd have probably crippled the kid.
CD | 10.09.06 - 11:37 pm | #

At my school, thirty years ago, they were called swats, and rather than "turning the school around," they were seen as a way to keep your parents from finding out what you'd been up to. Call the parents, or take the swats. Kind of the assistant principal's way of blackmailing the bad kids into letting him beat them.

I'd say it's directly responsible for all them murders I done.
Laszlo Panaflex | 10.09.06 - 11:48 pm | #

I went to school in Midlothian TX and they had corporal punishment. To be honest, it worked on me. I rarely had to get pops, or licks as we called it, but when I did I certainly remembered it and didn't make the same mistake again. The school wouldn't administer licks unless a student had screwed up pretty badly such as cussing at a teacher or getting in a fight. It was a pretty effective deterrent and FAR more effective than detention; God, what a joke that was.

I also had parents that spanked. Yep. I'm a product of those so called abusive parents. Let me tell you something; when it's done right spanking works. My mom usually handed out the punishment because my dad, the big bad Marine and police officer, was just too big a wimp for that. She never smacked me in public and it was never an instant punishment. If I was acting badly in public she would give me one warning. If I continued acting badly then she would tell me that I'm getting a spanking when we got home. That was always enough to straighten me out. She wouldn't cut short her shopping or whatever it was we were doing. No...I had to wait around and stew on it until we got home. Sometimes I would beg and plead saying I would be good. Other times I wouldn't say a thing in the hopes that she would forget about it. None of it ever worked. When we got home it was three (always three, no more and no less) smacks on the butt with her hand.

My point here is that my parents never hauled off and just hit me. It was always a judiciously applied punishment. I could always tell my parents didn't enjoy it and once my spanking was over the matter was promptly dropped. I think they must have read Sun Tzu who said, "A punishment should be swift, severe, and then forgotten." Honestly, waiting for it was worse than the actual event. I'm not some kind of pissed off person who wishes my parents hadn't hit me. There's a big difference between hauling off and smacking your kid in the face when your pissed and handing out a punishment that fits the "crime." It sets up in a kid's mind that specific actions result in specific punishments.

This is a really weird country. Parents today want their kids to act like adults starting around age 3 or 4 yet they never set parameters for acceptable behavior. Punishment today consists of a time out, whatever the hell that's supposed to achieve. Whenever I hear some parent start counting to their kid I just want to knock the ever loving shit out of that adult. Don't count. If you're kid is acting like a shit stain then shut them down on the spot. Counting just lets them know that they can keep doing whatever it is they are doing right up to but never quite at the dreaded 3. I have never once, EVER heard a parent make it to 3.

Okay, I guess I'm just ranting at this point. I'm sure most people will disagree with me on this. I consider myself quite liberal and very much left of center but this is one area where I have to disagree with most of you.
AF Comm Guy | 10.10.06 - 12:09 am | #

corporal punishment has been an effective tool if used properly for how long in human history? Its really simple, if you spank a kid and it leaves a mark for more than a few hours or if you hit a child in anger then its abuse.

I've had this argument quite a few times about spanking a child around 2 to 4 years old and my answer will never change. If getting him to learn that no means no takes a few spanks, I will take that any day over him not knowing what no means, getting lose from my hand one day and running in to traffic. It has nothing to do with breaking a childs spirt as the Dobson crowd would say and all about learning Action = Reaction.
NSAmole | 10.10.06 - 12:13 am | #

Man, I gotta proof read these more often and get my your and you're straightened out.
AF Comm Guy | 10.10.06 - 12:15 am | #

Another example of child protection:

http://video.google.ca/ videoplay...110250157218995
Marshall Applewhite | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 12:37 am | #

[Deleted. Posting under multiple identities is a bannable offense]

Edited By Siteowner
Barnacle Junior | 10.10.06 - 12:39 am | #

AF Comm Guy: time out in his room worked for my son better than anything else. He hated it. Produced results for me. I myself was physically and verbally abused as a child, so maybe I'm bending over backwards the other way... at this point, too late to second guess. But my son is a good person and a productive member of the community, even tho he's very young. At least he's got a job, a house, a new wife, and he's pulling his weight.

Don't worry about the proofreading... most folks, doesn't matter here, and for those of us who were editors in a previous life, we'll cut you some slack, ok?
JustWords | 10.10.06 - 1:09 am | #

burningbush - so appropriate, but I had "Jeremy" by Pearl Jam stuck in my head. It sems pretty obvious to me that corporal punishment leads to some students holding grudges against the school/teachers which leads to some of them going postal.

Having said that, I do think there are approriate times and methods for parents to hit their kids. I completely agree with the poster upthread who said they would rather give a few smacks to teach a young child that no means no than for the child to run out into the street.
MattR | 10.10.06 - 1:09 am | #

Damn, all my comments are getting deleted. Is this something automatic in the software? I'm not posting under multiple names.
Barnacle Junior | 10.10.06 - 1:16 am | #

"How does corporal punishment still exist in our schools?"

Because it is, for some reason, still acceptable as punishment at home.

How it is ok for an adult to slap or spank a kid, but not ok for the same adult to slap or hit some one his or her own size on the arse in an aggressive angry manner, is beyond me.
Anonymous | 10.10.06 - 1:20 am | #

"Used properly" my ass! I grew up in Oklahoma and was a well-behaved student. But one "bad boy" would get paddled almost every day. Everyone in the class would laugh. Is that sick or what? However, in 3rd grade, I got paddled with a 2-inch thick paddle. Why? The teacher left the room and said no one could get out of their chairs except to sharpen their pencil. Of course, when she left, half the class stood in the pencil sharpener line. Well, one girl knocked over the teacher's vase, Everyone ran back to their seat. The techer came back in and yelled, "Who broke the vase?" Well, in those times, to snitch was the kiss of death. So, everyone in the pencil sharpener line got 2 licks with the paddle.

I tell you -- some of these teachers are sadists.
Shell | 10.10.06 - 1:26 am | #

swats? discuss cieling swats, lefthand vs right hand, holes drilled so you can hear the wind whistle as it arcs like a pendulum? or discuss the technique of just using a flick of the wrist to move that 1 x 2 foot by 1 inch piece of wood from a stand still speeding to hit a target 5 inches away?

may as well discus using tazers, cattle prods, or old hand crank telephones.
duncanidho | 10.10.06 - 1:39 am | #

I'd like to ask Bush if he supports corporal punishment since the Bible states "spare the rod, spoil the child".
eric | 10.10.06 - 1:52 am | #

smack my child and I will smack you.
kevo | 10.10.06 - 2:11 am | #

I must give some sympathy to teachers, especially of those run-down schools with students who cause a great deal of mischief during the day. Many times those classrooms are overcrowded and teachers are under pressure by new-fangled teaching methods, concepts,unsupportive principals, adverserial school districts, and unfair No Child Left Behind regulations.
Teachers usually would allow students to dissent but they have neither the time or space to allow for of it in their overcrowded classrooms.
Also, in inner-city schools, students with behavior problems, and/or disorders are often left unaddressed or untreated.
For these reasons a classroom can be more like a pressure cooker instead of a learning environment with the teacher doing the most expediant methos to preserve order.
eric | 10.10.06 - 2:30 am | #

Knowledge really IS power... Buy Bill O'Reilly's "Culture Warrior" book, and learn about the true nature and hidden agenda of the Secular-Progressives...

Liberals are fine (this book doesn't attack them...) and they are certainly entitled to their voice and opinion in this great country of ours -- but the ACLU, George Soros, Howard Dean and the rest of the Far-Left are VERY evil, VERY powerful, and EXTREMELY DANGEROUS, and you should educate yourself on the background (and status) of the Secular-Progressive movement...

Want your parental rights abolished??? Want 60-day jail senteces for people that rape children??? Want ZERO jail time for violent criminals?? Want all drugs to be leagalized??? Want America's right to defend itself (and the tools we use to defend ourselves) taken away??? Don't want ANY judgements made about ANYONE at ANY TIME??? Want adults to be able to have sex with KIDS??? Want open borders ALL THE TIME???Want socialism to reign in AMERICA??? Don't believe in EVIL??? Then the Secular-Progressive movement is for you... But if not, you'd better wise up, and learn about the court battles raging right at this moment, before it's too late, and before you wake up and the AMERICA you know and love is GONE FOREVER!

God bless America!
TheACLUisEVIL | 10.10.06 - 2:37 am | #

A two year old? Someone upthread thinks you have to smack a two year old to teach them no means no? The only two year old I can imagine requiring corporal punishment on the worst day of his life is Baby Huey. Truth is he was a cartoon. Cheeseballs, no one on the planet need to smack a two year old to teach them anything. Well, I guess if you are teaching them that you will hit them if they don't obey you. Cheeses, a two year old.
thebewilderness
----------------------
I think you didn't understand the post. I remember driving in a parking lot one day and a small child almost ran behind my car as it moved in reverse. That parent (who was holding the hands of several other kids) didn't have control of that child (who was throwing a tantrum by bolting away from her and not listening as she called him).
Children have to follow directions for their own good, and in emergency situations like that, if a "pop' is what is called for to get a child to follow directions immediately, than so be it , for the child's own safety.
eric | 10.10.06 - 2:43 am | #

Anonymous and everyone else to answer your question why its not acceptable for adults to settle things in a physical manner: Because our socity has become a collection of wimps. Sometimes very rarely when someone gets out of line and stays out of line the only thing that will help them is to have a good old fashion ass kicking. I've said it for years, there were times I wished my parents had knocked the hell out of me rather than giving me free reign.

Does a child need an asskicking? No thats abuse. Sometimes does a child need the rod? Yes. Sometimes they only need a slap on the hand. Sometimes even less. I taught a 6 month old to stop pulling its mothers hair once but pulling its hair at the exact same moment it pulled on the mothers. In other situations a time out could work, or putting up the toys.

Don't give up the rod just because you had someone use on you in anger rather than love. Or worse you have waited to use the rod until you were angry and you see yourself as being abusive. Guess what...you are.
NSAmole | 10.10.06 - 3:09 am | #

As a teacher I can say that the most effective method of punishing kids is through peer pressure. A kid can wear a spanking like a badge of pride. If you take away 5 min from everyone's recess, or 5 points off everyone's quiz, when one kid screws up, the kid will shape up real quick, unless he (yes >90% of the time it is a he) doesn't want any freinds. Seems silly, but push-ups, sit-ups, etc. are good too. All this said though, behavior starts in the home. If kids aren't sent to school with proper social skills it makes things a lot harder.
ryan | 10.10.06 - 3:23 am | #

Please, someone tell me that TheACLUisEVIL is being satirical, or is deliberately trolling.

Because it would be hard for me to believe that someone could be so stupid and still be able to breathe, let alone use a computer.

I could try desconstructing that screed, but what would be the point. I'd just be feeding the troll.
Stuart | 10.10.06 - 3:25 am | #

the aclu protects individual rights, and yes even criminals have some rights. bill oreilly (and people like him) specialize in blurring these very important lines. if the aclu says "criminal 'a' deserves a lawyer" oreilly will say "the aclu is against punishing crime". its just not that simple. find specific claims about court cases or whatever in oreilly's book and look at the aclu release about the issue, i guarantee oreilly wont have accurately described the aclu's reasons for taking certain positions. if you think the aclu is against any jail time for violent crime, or any of those other things, you are being lied to.

another blurring of the lines: socialism already "flourishes" in america. thats what public schools are, thats what medicare is, etc. nearly all americans are in favor of some form(s) of socialism. if bill oreilly is telling you otherwise, he is lying to you.
Anonymous | 10.10.06 - 3:34 am | #

i dont mind feeding the troll, if thats what im doing, as its after 3 am so theres not too much point in trolling now.
Anonymous | 10.10.06 - 3:36 am | #

Teachers aren't allowed to punish kids, parents aren't allowed to punish kids, and the CJ system is looked down on for punishing kids, mind-altering drugs are looked down on... so what options do we have left? Can we start brainwashing them? Otherwise, I guess we just leave them alone while the scream and holler and attack the other kids right?

"Oh, its just boys being boys" as a gang of four 7-year old boys beats a little 5 year old girl.

"You just have to let them work this sort of thing out" as a big thirteen year old beats up on a little eleven year old.

Of course, schools punish the kids that fight back against their bullies too... Or what happens to be the case in the High School, refuses to punish the bullies whatsoever.

Our educational system is falling apart because no one knows what they hell to do with the kids for fear it will piss off this group or that. And as a society, even parents aren't allowed to discipline their kids beyond "Time outs", which I'm sure SOMEONE out there feels is barbaric.
James (aka Br. SMG of Truth) | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 6:26 am | #

sorry guys, but I am a huge liberal working at a school run by two republicans, principal and vice principal and the school is out of control. I am a 42 year old woman who breaks up fights daily and has to listen to children cursing, being disrespectful and running the school. And don't think they don't know that they run it. It is a lower socio economic area and they have tried to suspend kids, give in-school suspensions, and nothing is working. The situation grows worse by the day.
Like I said, I am a liberal but I have always used spanking to punish my kids. I didn't do it often but saved it for the big stuff. The results, my kids are great. They are well behaved kids. And my 16 year old son, I have never had a problem with him, not one. He's a good kid, who doesn't get into trouble, knows what's expected of him and keeps his nose clean.
I guess where I am going with this is that liberals have allowed the pendulum to swing too far on this issue and we have hurt our children. It's the liberal fault. This touchy feely crap with the kids has got to stop. I went to school with corporal punishment and I turned out fine. So did my husband, my brother... etc. etc. etc. Kids today are not fine. They are horrible out of control and we are in serious trouble if this is our future. You all need to go spend some time at a school before you make any judgements but this "don't use corporaral punishment on kids" has got to stop.
I wish we could use the paddle at our school. Kids know you can't lay a hand on them and so rather than compliance you hear, Fuck you. Hear fuck you enough and you'll be saying, give me something to hit this kid's ass with NOW.
Erica | 10.10.06 - 7:44 am | #

and I just read James post above mine and he's right. Parents can't even punish their own children and our children are in big trouble. And you're not allowed to disagree until you go work at a school for a week. Then you can pass judgement. Until then, believe me when I say that liberal philosophy on children has failed. We need to admit it and change the game, before it's too late.
Erica | 10.10.06 - 7:47 am | #

Coach Cox was laso my woodshop teacher and was also standing at the exit door to J. Frank Dobie high school the day I accidently dropped a lid of weed I had just scored.
Right on the floor...
Righ in front of Coach Cox....

He picked up my bag of weed and told me to follow him.

Brought me in his office and made me an offer, either we go to the Principals office, or I take 5 of his best, with "Loud Lucy", his coaches personal paddle.

Needless to say, I took the ass bustin, and yea, it hurt like a motherfucker and my ass was on fire at about 250 fukkin degrees for a full hour.

But I went home that night and nary a word was ever said.

He kept my lid though.
Jonsey J. Jones | 10.10.06 - 8:11 am | #

I'm more or less on the fence on this topic. I don't personally think a child needs to be swatted, popped, whacked, or thwapped in order to teach them right from wrong or to punish them.
The one question I usually have for the adults who do go in for that sort of thing, is would they accept that method directed at themselves?
Should the police be able to pull you from your car after a moving violation and give you three pops to the back of the legs with a baton instead of giving you a ticket? Should they be able to come into your home and bend you over the couch to deliver a few whacks across the bum if you are involved in a misdemeanor?
Some people might actually be all for it. They might want to take the licks instead of having to deal with court fees and possible jail time.
Anybody have any thoughts on that?
Mayo
Mayo | 10.10.06 - 8:24 am | #

I honestly can't believe some of things people are saying here! How is it that things done to children in the name of discipline are ok yet do the same thing to an adult and it's against the law. Smacking children because you can't think of another way to teach them is just a lack of creativity on your part. Most people remember if they were spanked but usually have no idea what the infraction was- what does that say about what you learned? If you look at the research on spanking and corporal punishment, none of it comes to the conclusion that it's any more effective than any other non-violent discipline style. So, sorry, but I'm going to err on the side of building a strong relationship of mutual respect with my child. If you want to rule your children through fear, so be it, but realize you're no different than the republicans in power right now. Me, I'll go another route and teach my children through less offensive means.

ps. yes, I was spanked as a child and I think I turned out fine, also. The difference is I think I turned out ok despite being spanked, not because of it.
g-mama | 10.10.06 - 9:00 am | #

"Children nowadays are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannise their teachers."
Socrates

As always, there is nothing new in the world. For the people who think that what is going on these days is any different than what went on in days past.....please read some history.
Methods may change, the speed in which news travels may change, and how society judges things may change, but everything basically remains the same.
I'll wager there are no more or less incidents of school violence now than there were hundreds of years ago statistically thinking.
Has anybody noticed there are well over 6 billion people on the planet right now? World population has tripled in under one hundred years.
The internet allows us to hear about something happening in a school a thousand miles away the same day it happens. Years gone by, you may never have heard about it or only heard the myth that was generated by the time the news reached you.
Ignoring history completely, some people honestly believe there was some magical time in days gone by when things were just super-duper.
At least half the nation is calling a man a "monster" and "predator" for making sexual advances toward a 16 year old "boy". It could just as easily be a girl. It makes you think there was a magical time when no man would think of touching somebody that young. History says otherwise. History says that prior to the industrial revolution, a 16 year old "woman" would have been married for several years and probably have a child or two of her own. Age of consent even in puritan controlled areas of New England was 10 years old.
Children worked in sweat shops by the time they were 7 or 8 if not earlier even here in the good old U.S. of A.
It's going to be very interesting to see how the hive mind changes if people like Jan Lundberg are correct. If you don't know who Jan is, congress recently heard Jans comments about the scary events to unfold in the event of a very near oil shock. I think words like cannabalism were used.
Oh boy.....watching the human condition is always fun. Scary....but fun. George Carlin is laughing somewhere right now.
Mayo | 10.10.06 - 9:33 am | #

I wish I had gotten into this discussion earlier, but here goes.

I am a 54 year old male who lives every day with the emotional scars left from a childhood of abuse. Here is a laundry list of some of my more memorable disciplinary sessions:

At the age of seven, I was burned on my stomach and back with a hot clothes iron.

At the age of eight, I was forced to strip naked and was beaten all over my body with a 3' long board fashioned from a 1X2 piece of ash wood while my younger sister watched.

At the age of eleven I was stabbed in the chest with a carving fork.

At the age of twelve I was tied naked to a post in the basement and beaten with the board mentioned above. By that time though, the board had been modified with carpet tacks hammered in at an angle so one edge of the nail heads stood up from the surface like a rasp. I was left tied to the post, bloodied, for the whole night.

These, and many other abuses were perpetrated by my mother who justified her actions by quoting bible verses and saying she was "saving" me from Satan.

Corporal punishment in schools is nothing more than state sponsored child abuse.
Yellow Elephant Safari | 10.10.06 - 10:00 am | #

This is ridiculous!! With all the violence we already have in schools, why are we bringing more violence voluntarily via corporal punishment?

It's teaching the kids that if you run into a difficult situation, violence is the answer. And that's a lesson they should NOT be learning in schools from their so-called teachers.
Skrpune | 10.10.06 - 10:10 am | #

A two year old? Someone upthread thinks you have to smack a two year old to teach them no means no?

What are you going to do with a 2-year old? Reason with him/her to not stick their tongue in that light socket?

Why can't people see the difference between beating, smacking, abuse and spanking? A swift spank on the heavily diapered bottom of a 2-year old certainly is not the same as abuse. It is not the same as belting a child across the face or beating them with a stick.

All that being said, it is never appropriate for a teacher, principal, etc. to discipline children by physical means. Never. I spanked my daughter when she was a child when I deemed it the only way, but pity the teacher who would have ever tried it.
kac90b | 10.10.06 - 10:13 am | #

There is a HUGE difference between abuse and discipline. I think some people fail to realize that and lump any action against a child as abuse.

Let me ask, would it not be MORE abusive to allow them free reign to attack other kids, teachers, and their own parents without meaningful consequences? Will these kids not grow up to lack any respect for authority and be more willing to do whatever they want and harm society far worse than a few swift hits with a paddle?

Of course, I know that I am asking this of a group of people that blame society for the behavior of criminals. Well, what COULD society have done to prevent the criminal behavior? It's NOT just socio-economic status as the two shooters in Colorado were from relatively affluent families going to a good school. Likewise, I believe the student who recently shot his principle was also from a good neighborhood. So then, what is the root of later criminal behavior?

Society has certain norms that must be upheld. If a child attacks another child brutally, is the appropriate response a "Time Out?" What does that teach the child? That you have to sit in a corner for a few minutes for beating up another kid... doesn't seem like much of a deterent to me.

And these same kids will be the ones who later go on to call the weaker kids "fag" and "queer" and torment then with impugnity at the local high school, because the teachers and administrations wouldn't THINK about punishing anyone on the football/basketball team... that only pisses their parents off.

Once these bullies graduate from high school, they go on to do the same crap in college, then they graduate and work their way up the corporate ladder (or political ladder) and relentlessly torment their underlings because no one would dare question them.

So if someone has a better solution than the paddle or time-outs, I'd be happy to hear it.
James (aka Br. SMG of Truth) | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 10:14 am | #

Children are not adults! Anyone who has their own children (or better yet has worked in a school) can tell you that. The argument that you shouldn't be able to spank a child because you couldn't do the same to an adult is poorly thought out. For starters, you are not responsible for other adults. If another adult acts irresponsibly or dangerously they are held accountable, not true with children. Additionaly, adults (at least most) have better reasoning skills than children. It is often impossible to convey complex issues to children as they don't have the life experience to understand what you are saying. Children, for their own safety, need to understand that certain behaviors are unacceptable and will illicit consequences (even though they may not understand exactly why yet).
Ryan | 10.10.06 - 10:14 am | #

...that's a lesson they should NOT be learning in schools from their so-called teachers.
Skrpune | 10.10.06 - 10:10 am | #

Especially the ones who claim to be "huge liberals".
Yellow Elephant Safari | 10.10.06 - 10:17 am | #

Well put Ryan!
James (aka Br. SMG of Truth) | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 10:26 am | #

James (aka Br. SMG of Truth) | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 10:14 am |

James, that's a flawed argument. The "violence is bad so let's teach them that with violence" approach is reactionary in the worst way. It reinforces and validates the original violent behavior. And by the sounds of your post, you seem to allow for only two options: "pop" the kids, or allow them to run free & become the dregs of society.

I am in no way, shape or form saying that there should be no punishment for violent actions, and I'll be damned if I can come up with a perfect solution to how to address schoolyard bullies. But I know for DAMN sure that reacting to violence with violence is not the answer.
Skrpune | 10.10.06 - 10:30 am | #

Ryan,

We're not responsible for other adults? Really now? I could have sworn we were. We make laws for adults. You may not personally write them, but you elect the people who do based on how you think things should be. We're all responsible for other adults. I'm in the military and I'm responsible for all of the adults under my position in the chain of command.
So I'll ask you.....would you be fine with the police dragging you out of your car for a moving violation and giving you a few whacks on the backs of your legs with a baton? You would be in need of discipline since you weren't following the rules so to speak.
As I said before...I'm pretty much in a grey area here. I think different children need different types of discipline for them to respond.
I don't consider a parent who uses physical discipline to be inherently evil anymore than I would view a bear mother as inherently evil for giving a big bear-paw swat to a cub for getting out of line.
I'm really just here to rock the boat today I guess. Maybe I didn't get enough raisins in my bran this morning. Wait....I didn't eat breakfast. There's my problem.
I really just want to hear an adult say they wouldn't mind getting billy clubbed by the police if they deserved it for breaking society rules.
Mayo | 10.10.06 - 10:40 am | #

The "violence is bad so let's teach them that with violence" approach is reactionary in the worst way. It reinforces and validates the original violent behavior.

Properly and appropriately spanking a child is not violent. Beating a child is. Damn. There is a difference. As I mentioned upthread...I spanked my daughter until she was old enough to understand some reason. I never smacked her. I never hit her with anything. I never beat her in rage.

At her current age of 21, she tells me that she never got spanked that it wasn't in response to some pretty inappropriate behavior on her part. She was never spanked after the age of 6 or 7. Didn't need to - the spankings were always accompanied by a stern look and an explanation (even if she was too young to really grasp the explanation).

I am certainly to the left of center on almost every issue, but will not change my mind about spanking.

Of course, I suppose that people who cannot tell the difference between abuse and spanking probably should keep physical contact with their children to an absolute minimum.
kac90b | 10.10.06 - 10:50 am | #

THis is the most ridiculous item of news I have read in a long time. And to equate a paddling in school to anything in the news today is even more egregious.

We have kids today that challenge authority in every way imaginable. I'm a fairly liberal person, but when I see kids in school beating up teachers, cussing them out, stabbings, shootings, etc., and we are complaining about a paddling, we have lost it as a society.

I'm appalled at some of the comments here, implying that a "whooping" damages a kids psyche, self-esteem, etc. When I was a kid, a paddling put a bad kid in his place and showed him who was boss, and we gre up better for it. This is one thing that Dobson says that I agree with...if you're bad, you get paddled. Yes, paddles with holes in them to make them more painful, thick paddles, etc.

We are growing up to be a nation of big pansies, given the tings I've ween on this board regarding getting (Wahhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!) paddled in school.
Eric | 10.10.06 - 10:55 am | #

"My point here is that my parents never hauled off and just hit me. It was always a judiciously applied punishment. I could always tell my parents didn't enjoy it and once my spanking was over the matter was promptly dropped. I think they must have read Sun Tzu who said, "A punishment should be swift, severe, and then forgotten." Honestly, waiting for it was worse than the actual event. I'm not some kind of pissed off person who wishes my parents hadn't hit me. There's a big difference between hauling off and smacking your kid in the face when your pissed and handing out a punishment that fits the "crime." It sets up in a kid's mind that specific actions result in specific punishments.

This is a really weird country. Parents today want their kids to act like adults starting around age 3 or 4 yet they never set parameters for acceptable behavior. Punishment today consists of a time out, whatever the hell that's supposed to achieve. Whenever I hear some parent start counting to their kid I just want to knock the ever loving shit out of that adult. Don't count. If you're kid is acting like a shit stain then shut them down on the spot. Counting just lets them know that they can keep doing whatever it is they are doing right up to but never quite at the dreaded 3. I have never once, EVER heard a parent make it to 3.

Okay, I guess I'm just ranting at this point. I'm sure most people will disagree with me on this. I consider myself quite liberal and very much left of center but this is one area where I have to disagree with most of you"

Well said.
Dnice | 10.10.06 - 10:56 am | #

I can tell the difference between spanking and abuse. They are two different degrees of unnecessary physical abuse. Like the difference between a slap on the cheek and a punch in the nose.

I never had to resort to hitting either of my children, even before the age of 6. A stern look and firm voice have all the effect necessary to teach children that young that they are out of line. Hitting only shows them that it's OK to bully someone smaller and weaker.
Yellow Elephant Safari | 10.10.06 - 11:03 am | #

While I agree there is an age limit to gettng wuuped becasue it's not as effective on a teen like a child. I'm sorry spanking works in the home very well on younger childern. It can be used so they know and understand when you do something wrong there is punishment in return.
Do I think everything warrents a spanking? No, but I do think if used sparingly and correctly without abuse then it's a great tool. I did get my ass beat in gradeschool and acted right afterwards so this barbaric argument is Bullshit. There was nothing else they could of done that would of worked.

As a kid spankings kept me from doing alot more then grounding or anything else. Then again it's not like my Parents had anything to take away becasue we had nothing but our imaginations.

That also isnt to say it works on all kids. My brother didnt fear a spanking he feared getting yelled at. Differnt punishments work for differnt people.
LUCKYTOMEETME | 10.10.06 - 11:12 am | #

"Of course, I suppose that people who cannot tell the difference between abuse and spanking probably should keep physical contact with their children to an absolute minimum.
kac90b | 10.10.06 - 10:50 am"

Geez, how nice of you to imply that anyone who's across the board against physical punishment is a danger to their child! Puh-lease.

There's a HUGE difference between a parent spanking their child in PRIVATE and a teacher "popping" a kid in PUBLIC school. Physical discipline in a public arena is more to intimidate the other kids than to correct the kid being punished. And spanking/popping/hitting a kid in front of his/her peers amounts to physical AND mental abuse.

Here's this for an idea. How about we try teaching the kids through leading by example, instead of corporal punishment? Two quotes come to mind right now:
"Violence begets violence" & "You must BE the change you want to see in the world"

Let's give them the tools to function in society rather than poppin' them one when they do something bad or violent.

Am I currently a parent? No, not yet but I hope to be in the coming years. I don't know whether I'm going to choose to spank my kids or not - I don't pretend to know what it's like to try to raise a child, and I don't pretend to know what I would do in that situation. I am however certain that allowing students to be hit by their teachers is dead wrong, and using violence to punish violence only furthers the cycle.
Skrpune | 10.10.06 - 11:25 am | #

Like I said, most of you lack the creativity to discipline any other way. Fine. Spank away. But don't spank my child. And don't you dare insinuate that because I choose to parent without the rod, I am unable to effectively teach my child right from wrong.
And those of you who say that young children aren't adults and therefore don't respond to reason thus need to be spanked... whoa. In other words, children need to experience physical pain in order to learn anything. Maybe we should apply this to how children learn, say, how to go to the potty. "You wet in your pants, Sally?Whack." So ridiculous. Parenting is about teaching, and teaching using pain is just an inability to figure out other means to the end. There are lots of ways. Read some books. Get some ideas. There are plenty out there.
In the end, I think it comes down to what you want your children to learn in the long run. I want mine to learn to do the right thing because it's the right thing to do, not for fear of being punished if he doesn't.
g-mama | 10.10.06 - 11:38 am | #

g-mama

Very well said. I wish I could have expressed my position on this matter so eloquently.

As I said before, my wife and I never had to resort to physical punishment with our kids and they are now very successful and productive adults.
Yellow Elephant Safari | 10.10.06 - 11:47 am | #

Discipline is not abuse and abuse is not discipline. Hauling of and hitting a child with no warning is abuse, setting ground rules and punishing infractions is discipline. A kid in middle school knows what is expected from him or her. When they broke the rules they knew they got pops. We lock people away for years and execute some murderers, is that abuse too? I am anti-death penalty, not because it's wrong, but because I can't bear the idea that an innocent man might be executed. I would rather suffer ten guilty men go free then one innocent man falsly imprisoned or executed.
Pops was not public, it was in an office with just you and the VP pretty private if you ask me. Sure your classmates might have known you were going to get popped. Now really, the knee jerk reaction that spanking a child is abuse or evil is just ridiculous. A child with no boundries and no discipline isn't a good way to start a person. I do think there are better ways to manage children than pops though. However most of those ideas cost money and apparently investing in our children comes after tax cuts for the rich and big oil, and after billions spent on an illegal war. If children had good teachers, good schools and parents that support them then pops,licks and swats would be left behind instead of the children.
mike | 10.10.06 - 11:50 am | #

It never should have left the schools. It should be an option for parents, which includes a liability waiver to protect the paddler. It works. It didn't kill me when I was paddled in school, or at home.
Anonymous | 10.10.06 - 11:52 am | #

Yup - "turn a school around" means the "stupid" kids know their place. The real lie about America's public schools is that the system teaches children, at a young age, to accept their place in the community's socioeconomic hierarchy.

The affluent children want the kids of the poor to recieve a poor education so that, by comparison, their kids end up with better looking credentials to get into better schools. Elementary schools condition kids to accept their place at the bottom, middle, or top of the class. It has nothing to do with education at all - its really all about control.

Anthony Price just wants to be able to legally use force to make sure kids are "tracked" where the system has decided they belong. Public schools have always done this in America - most teachers, while never admitting it, actively participate in the selecting and promotion of certain kids at the expense of others.

Its really a dishonest system, one that actually serves little or no purpose in today's America.
Anonymous | 10.09.06 - 9:45 pm | #

%100 agree... It is the Corporations response to our turn to socialism in the 30s and 40's... You know, the New Deal... Well Corps got SCARED. and began to "sell the american dream" or "sell the capitalist story".

All the kids who leave school know shit about shit. They can't tell you any political tales, not see any connections between critical issues.

It's like they have had all their brains power has been replaced with "If it's not a part of pop culture, I don't know it".
Krackonis | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 11:54 am | #

Hey... I got spanked when I was bad. Just like other kids. I don't see anything wrong with it. It can teach children to avoid dangerous things, assuming you know how to spank a kid without hurting them.

I can still count the times I was spanked on two hands... I still love my mom and my dad and they are still married and I working on it....

Everythings fine. So, I guess it's not bad if a loving parent knows what they are doing.
Krackonis | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 11:57 am | #

I never suggested that children have no boundries or discipline. Quite the contrary. They need very firm boundaries and appropriate discipline when they cross the line. Any troglodyte can haul off and whack a kid when they can't, or won't spare the time or energy it takes to do it the hard way; teaching by example, being consistent, treating everyone around you with respect and dignity.

Go ahead and beat your kids. But keep your hands off mine or you'll have to answer to me.
Yellow Elephant Safari | 10.10.06 - 12:02 pm | #

"I never suggested that children have no boundries or discipline. Quite the contrary. They need very firm boundaries and appropriate discipline when they cross the line. Any troglodyte can haul off and whack a kid when they can't, or won't spare the time or energy it takes to do it the hard way; teaching by example, being consistent, treating everyone around you with respect and dignity.

Go ahead and beat your kids. But keep your hands off mine or you'll have to answer to me."
Yellow Elephant Safari | 10.10.06 - 12:02 pm |

Bwahahahahahahahaha

You act as if kids are fully developed and respond to the same things that adults do, and that anyone who does spank their kids is a troglodyte.

I can see why conservatives think that liberals feel as if they're elite and know what's best for everyone.

And one of your issues is equating a little spanking for a "beating." People like you take everything to uber heights and compare it to the most dire things.
Eric | 10.10.06 - 12:14 pm | #

Eric, you ignorant slut,

I never said anything about treating them like adults either. Again, I have 2 great kids to prove that my method worked so your derision means nothing to me.

Like I said, beat your kids all you want, just leave mine alone.
Yellow Elephant Safari | 10.10.06 - 12:18 pm | #

Skrpunt: There's a HUGE difference between a parent spanking their child in PRIVATE and a teacher "popping" a kid in PUBLIC school. Before you flame out, please read my first comment, wherein I said that I did not for any reason agree with teachers being physical with students.

g-mama: And those of you who say that young children aren't adults and therefore don't respond to reason thus need to be spanked... whoa. In other words, children need to experience physical pain in order to learn anything. Maybe we should apply this to how children learn, say, how to go to the potty. "You wet in your pants, Sally?Whack." Tell me. Does a two-year old respond to reason? Also, I don't think anybody here is advocating "whacking" their children while potty training.

Get a fucking grip. Spanking is not the same as BEATING somebody. I was spanked as a child. I was never beaten, hit, smacked or abused.

Spanking is usually not a first resort for discipline. But if my young child, too young to understand what I was saying, was doing something dangerous to herself or others, she would get spanked. Like I said earlier, by the time she was 6 or 7 and was old enough to generally reason with, she was never spanked again. But I reiterate...How do you make a reasonable, effective case to a 2 or 3 year old not to do something dangerous?

I'm beginning to wonder if people who cannot tell the difference between SPANKING and ABUSE had horrible miserable childhoods during which they were beaten without mercy.
kac90b | 10.10.06 - 12:29 pm | #

Yellow Elephant,

Well, let's gather here again to discuss when they're adults.

As has been stated on this thread many times, to equate spankings with "beatings" torture, etc., etc., is so over the top. In this age, when kids are OBVIOUSLY, on the whole, getting worse, lazier, fatter, etc., we're worried about...a spanking/paddling?

Get a grip. Get it? Get a grip on the paddle...oh, forget it.
Eric | 10.10.06 - 12:34 pm | #

How do you make a reasonable, effective case to a 2 or 3 year old not to do something dangerous?
kac90b | 10.10.06 - 12:29 pm |

With small children, grabbing their hands, looking directly in their eyes and saying no in a loud voice is every bit as effective as a whack on the ass and only takes a little more effort on your part.

And yes, I do know the diference between SPANKING and ABUSE and stand by my belief that they are the same thing separated only by degree of severity. I have personally experienced both (see my first post on this thread).

I also know the difference between intelligent discourse and throwing insults. You want to try the former for a change?
Yellow Elephant Safari | 10.10.06 - 12:48 pm | #

Yellow Elephant,

Well, let's gather here again to discuss when they're adults.
Eric | 10.10.06 - 12:34 pm |

My kids are adults.

One is 30 years old and the mother of one who is also never spanked. The other is a nationally known classical musician who I will not name here.

Perhaps YOU are the one who should get a grip. On what it means to be an adult.
Yellow Elephant Safari | 10.10.06 - 12:52 pm | #

I received pops several a very few times in school. And I deserved it every time but one. That was in high school for not having a book cover on my book. Total bullshit and it made me hate high school. I was far too old to deal with that crap. But that being said, every other time was a time when it did far more good than harm and I am thankful for it. I turned out pretty good. It was rare that I was touched and it was allways done discretely, with no fanfare to make want the attention, and accompanied with a stern talk as to why I was having to suffer this fate. The pain in my rear subsided rather quickly but my desire to go through that experience helped me to learn that there were consequences to my actions.

I am as liberal as they come, or so I thought, but I will say discussions like this is where liberals get the bad name in the eyes of conservitives. Maybe if little Georgie W had received the discipline that I received we would live in a better world right now. Like I said, I learned that actions have copnsequnces. He didn't. A very rare-the key here is RARE-slap to the ass cab help a kid turn out right.

And just try being a teacher whose students know that you can't touch them. I know a teacher who has severla absolute hellions in her class who say right out loud to her, "you can't touch me and if you do I will tell." They are in second grade and make the other 25 students in her overcrowded classes act like shit too. So give our teachers some tools to help with the kids whose parents aren't as good as yours......
No W NOW | 10.10.06 - 12:57 pm | #

Yellow,

I too have a 40 yr old son who has two kids, niether has been spanked, and both are wunderkinds. One recently discovered a way to harness energy via cold fusion, which was promptly buried by the Bush Admin. The other is a nationally known rock musician, who shall remain nameless, but he plays 20 instruments.

But now that I think about it, there have been many people out there that have succeeded in this or that, and turned out to have...issues. So what's your point?

Bottom line, there are exceptions to every rule. No one is deriding the way you discipline your children, but you seem to think that anything that looks like not sparing the rod is equal to barbaric torture. Again, I say, that notion is retarded, and I would argue that if more kids were spanked when they did wrong, AS KIDS, but didnt' have the capacity to understand what the words mean, this world would be a better place right now.
Eric | 10.10.06 - 1:15 pm | #

To turn out the next generation of brutes, you have to start now. Violence is the answer to every uncomfortable situation. Hit first and ask questions later.

Otherwise you might end up with a generation of peace-loving, diplomatic, candyassed liberals. Can't even imagine what THAT kind of world would be like.
C Quil | 10.10.06 - 1:20 pm | #

Spanking is usually not a first resort for discipline. But if my young child, too young to understand what I was saying, was doing something dangerous to herself or others, she would get spanked. Like I said earlier, by the time she was 6 or 7 and was old enough to generally reason with, she was never spanked again. But I reiterate...How do you make a reasonable, effective case to a 2 or 3 year old not to do something dangerous?

I'm beginning to wonder if people who cannot tell the difference between SPANKING and ABUSE had horrible miserable childhoods during which they were beaten without mercy.
kac90b | 10.10.06 - 12:29 pm | #

This is what I mean by lack of imagination in parenting- just because you can't reason with a 2 year (although, this is not always true) doesn't mean you throw up your hands and let them get away with whatever it is they're doing or resort to spanking. How about physical removing them from the situation? Or removing the object? My toddler learns fine this way. Is it always easy? No. Is it always convenient? No. Is it frustrating? Sometimes. But in the end it's worth it.
And for those of you who keep ridiculing us 'liberals' because we are equating spanking with abuse, I have a question. So what if your child is extremely strong-willed? What if you spank them and they laugh? Do you spank them harder? Do you get something else to spank them with? What if they do the same thing again, then what? The big problem with spanking is not that in and of itself it's so horrible- it's what it can lead to.
And I fully disagree that the world would be a better place right now if more people spanked their kids- do you honestly think people don't spank their kids anymore??? Like, all of a sudden, in February of 1990 everyone decided not to spank. The majority of parents still spank. Hmmm. Maybe things aren't so black and white. Maybe there could be multifaceted reasons why kids "act up" these days?
g-mama | 10.10.06 - 1:34 pm | #

With small children, grabbing their hands, looking directly in their eyes and saying no in a loud voice is every bit as effective as a whack on the ass and only takes a little more effort on your part.

Well, gee. I never thought of that. Listen, that is the way she was usually disciplined. Sometimes her actions called for something a bit more severe and she was spanked. Not beaten, punched, hit, whacked or physically or mentally abused. And I put forth a huge amount of effort to raise my daughter. Probably more than most.

I also know the difference between intelligent discourse and throwing insults. You want to try the former for a change?

I was in no way throwing insults at anybody. You can decide how best to raise your own children. What I do find insulting, however, is the theory that because I spanked my daughter that was akin to child abuse. If you want to talk about intelligent discourse, you might want to consider it yourself.
Anonymous | 10.10.06 - 1:41 pm | #

Revenge? Oh yeah. Mom had a black eye and dad lost a tooth (or three). It was never brought up and they never, EVER dared hit me again. When they died - I celebrated. I spit on their graves every visit and remind them that I'm still here and they're worm food.

Had a teacher in school tried anything like that - he or she would have suffered the same fate. No question. I was, of course, beaten in school when I was too young to hit back. But not after I hit 6' and 220lbs. Cowards.

And isn't it funny how morons who use the tired, old cliche, "there's a difference between spanking and beating or paddling and abuse" are always the ones who do it? Its never those parents or teachers who are non-violent and its definitely NEVER those being beaten. They just know they have been hit by an adult. Stupid people walk among us (and spank children).
Victim | 10.10.06 - 1:41 pm | #

Victim,

Not to belittle your experiences, but, I rec'd spankings as a child. My parent's spanked me. With a belt or a switch, on my ass. That was it.

A Beating, on the other hand, is what I consider a beat-down..being punched, kicked, anything that it obviously meant to physically hurt (i.e., need treatment) a person.

So, I can understand where you're coming from, but, you're wrong. Plain and simple.

There is a huge difference. My parents and I are as close as peas in a pod, and, compared to my friends that were spared the spankings, I THANK GOD that my parents disciplined me in this manner.
Eric | 10.10.06 - 1:47 pm | #

g-mama...yeah I do think that parents use this form of discipline less. WHen a kid can call the cops and cry abuse because their parent's rightfully hit them after doing something, yeah, I think it has stopped.

And yes I do think there is a multifaceted reason for all of the BS today. But I think it all begins at home. And if they learn that there's no consequences for their actions in the home, then that will obviously carry outside the home, and lead to worse behaviour.
Eric | 10.10.06 - 1:50 pm | #

"Like I said, I am a liberal but I have always used spanking to punish my kids. I didn't do it often but saved it for the big stuff. The results, my kids are great. They are well behaved kids. And my 16 year old son, I have never had a problem with him, not one. He's a good kid, who doesn't get into trouble, knows what's expected of him and keeps his nose clean.

Erica | 10.10.06 - 7:44 am"

See, I think physical punishment is bad. I believe it cause untold emotional scars. I believe it teaches a kid that the people that love them cause them pain, among other things. But, I don't generally think that the emotional scars from it keep a person from integrating and becoming a productive member of society. I generally believe those scars manifest themselves more in their relationships, especially romantic ones. How many abused women stay with their partners, because they still love each other? How many emotionaly disfunctional people are out there trying to work through problems in therapy? Why is the divorce rate higher among so-called Christians when they also have the higher rates of physical punishment?

Problems may not manifest themselves right away, it may take decades for some things to surface and then some more decades to work through the problems. Life is too short to risk putting that on your kids. You should try and limit the damage you do to your kids. One good way to start is never physically hurting them.

As far as schools go, I admit that it might achieve a specific goal of certain administrators, but I think it is a lazy way of fixing deep seated problems. You want to help kids? Teach them that someone actually cares about them. Teach them that they can actually have a life to look foward to. Make sure you include all students. The kids at Columbine "slipped through the cracks" by what I've heard. Don't let that happen. Socially isolated students usually didn't get that way overnight. Give the kids their own voice. Use positive reinforcement, and most especially encouragement in all things. It doesn't happen overnight, but it can happen. It takes people that actually care about the kids, though, and it takes some thoughtfulness and creativity, something that seems woefully lacking in education right now.
Abel | 10.10.06 - 2:17 pm | #

Abel, why are you confusing abuse with a spanking? I think that peopel that do that had abusive parents or something, because I simply do not see it that way, and I remember a lot of spankings that I was given, and rightfully so. I have no mental scars to speak of, cause when I got a spanking, I knew I was on the wrong, and afterwards, accepted that I had done wrong and thought twice about doing it again.

And to equate a spanking to an abused woman..that's just outrageous. There is a HUGE difference between the two.

Discipline starts in the home. If they feel they can get away with something with their parents, how can you expect them to be respectful outside the home? And, kids are kids. Give them an inch...

And "talking" to them even after they've run you over a hundred times is them taking a mile. A good spanking is just that...not abuse, not a "beating" or whatever.
Mikey | 10.10.06 - 2:28 pm | #

"Before you flame out, please read my first comment, wherein I said that I did not for any reason agree with teachers being physical with students.
kac90b | 10.10.06 - 12:29 pm"

...and I never said that spanking is always wrong and should never be done. I was responding to another poster who implied that it was either spank or don't discipline at all, and who implied that correcting violence in schools with violence was a good solution.

I'd like to think that I can raise and discipline a child without having to spank him/her. But I am a human and I am also not a parent yet, so I guess the real answer will have to wait until I have kids. I hope that I will try to think of it from the kids' perspective. [Slightly off topic thought - wouldn't the world be a much better place if we all periodically looked at things from a child's perspective?!] Let's say for example that a child has hit their little sister and spanking is chosen as the method of punishment. How exactly does hitting the child teach the child that hitting is wrong? What is that child really learning? And how to you rationalize to a child that certain levels of violence are okay but that others are not??
Skrpune | 10.10.06 - 2:30 pm | #

g-mama...yeah I do think that parents use this form of discipline less. WHen a kid can call the cops and cry abuse because their parent's rightfully hit them after doing something, yeah, I think it has stopped.

Here's some stats-seems the majority (albeit not a huge majority) still spank or at least agree with it.

http://www.smartspanking.com/ sta...statistics.html

And yes I do think there is a multifaceted reason for all of the BS today. But I think it all begins at home. And if they learn that there's no consequences for their actions in the home, then that will obviously carry outside the home, and lead to worse behaviour.
Eric | 10.10.06 - 1:50 pm

And this is I think where we have a disconnect ( not just you and I, but non-spankers v. spankers)- spankers, by and large, seem to have this belief that if you don't spank then there are no consequences. Not in my house.
g-mama | 10.10.06 - 2:31 pm | #

And how to you rationalize to a child that certain levels of violence are okay but that others are not??
Skrpune | 10.10.06 - 2:30 pm |

Correction, that should have been:
...how DO you rationalize...
Skrpune | 10.10.06 - 2:38 pm | #

"Spanking children leaves untold emotional scars..."

It sure does; it leaves them with the attitude forever that they will be punished for doing wrong. It leaves them with an attitude that other peoples property isn't theirs to take and that beating homeless people to death with baseball bats isn't fun or funny.

Too many of todays children will never be punished until they are locked up in prison for life.
Donald | Homepage | 10.10.06 - 2:27 pm |

HUH?? Are you really implying that if you spank your kids, it'll keep them out of trouble & out of prison for their entire lives?? I beg to differ. Having a consequence for a bad action does not equate to wiping out said bad action. Take murder for example. By the same logic, there would be no murders in any state that has the death penalty, and we all know that's not the case.

Corporal punishment is not a deterrent, be it the death penalty or spanking or "whooping" or popping or whatever. We should not be teaching kids that they should be good because they'll be punished if they're bad - we should be teaching them to be good for the sake of being good.
Skrpune | 10.10.06 - 2:48 pm | #

Eric, with all due respect. You are wrong. Plain and simple. The responses complete support my statement that those who spank are the ONLY ones who think there is a difference. The kids sure don't see it. I do differentiate between beating and abuse. World of difference there.

(Now I'm sure some person of limited intellience will chime in that they do not spank but do see a difference. Blah, blah, blah.)

Spanking = beating. Only those who beat kids disagree.
Victim | 10.10.06 - 2:53 pm | #

Corporal punishment is not a deterrent, be it the death penalty or spanking or "whooping" or popping or whatever. We should not be teaching kids that they should be good because they'll be punished if they're bad - we should be teaching them to be good for the sake of being good.
Skrpune | 10.10.06 - 2:48 pm |

Thank you, Skrpune!!!! Well said.
g-mama | 10.10.06 - 2:53 pm | #

Most studies show that spanked children, if done excessively (nebulously defined at best) become convinced that might makes right, or the opposite extreme never form a backbone, metaphorically speaking. When it's done in schools and other institutions it's usually the basically good kid who occasionally screw up that face the punishment, not the hard core who everyone fears.

Kids today are spoiled. Like the rest of us they should wait until their adults and pay a sexy broad to whale the hay out of them.
ysbaddaden | 10.10.06 - 2:56 pm | #

I got spanked once in 2nd grade, in private, for doing something I should not have done. I never did it again, and not for fear of a repeated spanking. Hearing some folks refer to spankings as violence makes me think either they don't understand what the word means, or they have diluted its definition so much as to make it meaningless. If I hug my kids so much it hurts, does that make it violence?

As a parent I don't spank, but that's not so say I wouldn't. Parenting is tough, but abuse is wrong. There are too many reasons some kids are phucked up these days to place blame on any one issue. That is what the right does.

I see too many indulgent, spineless parents who seem to feel (no thought involved) self-esteem is more important than developing a moral coreand they let the kids get away with sanything (often with a chuckle). Truth is, there are many kids who will encounter real violence eventually, due to their mouths or deeds, that would have been avoided with a well placed butt smack (followed by a hug and discussion of the offense).

Corporal punishment (a fifty cent phrase for butt smack) is not a deterrent, but it is a course adjuster.
schtamos | 10.10.06 - 3:25 pm | #

Reading these comments is pretty interesting. Basically, what many seem to be saying is that all these spoiled, bratty children are the fault of liberal parents who don't spank. Hmmm. I guess the horrible state of the world really is the fault of liberals and their failed policies. Liberals really are to blame! Anyone else wondering if these are the voices of the next generation of neocons?
g-mama | 10.10.06 - 3:40 pm | #

And this is I think where we have a disconnect (not just you and I, but non-spankers v. spankers)- spankers, by and large, seem to have this belief that if you don't spank then there are no consequences. Not in my house.

Most parents I know that spank their children absolutely do not have that belief. There are other consequences to bad behavior, but all unacceptable behavior is not equal.

Let's say for example that a child has hit their little sister and spanking is chosen as the method of punishment.

For one thing, if my daughter had siblings (which she doesn't), I certainly would not have spanked her for hitting her little sister. Siblings fight, hit and argue. It's the nature of things.

I don't think spanking is appropriate for every little rule infraction. I said upstream that spanking is appropriate if the behavior is dangerous to the child or others. If she had thrown a knife at her sister, as I did once when my sister and I were little, I would have spanked her. My parents spanked me when I did that to my little sister - I was not quite two, she was a newborn. Pretty sure a time-out (which wasn't common 47 years ago) wouldn't have gotten the idea across.

We should not be teaching kids that they should be good because they'll be punished if they're bad - we should be teaching them to be good for the sake of being good.

What in the world is wrong with teaching children that they will be punished if they are bad? One can, at the same time, teach them that being good and doing good is the preferred way. One does not cancel out the other. There are consequences to both good and bad behavior. Teaching that to your children is part of the extremely hard work of being a responsible parent.

(Now I'm sure some person of limited intellience will chime in that they do not spank but do see a difference. Blah, blah, blah.).... Spanking = beating. Only those who beat kids disagree.

Victim: Obviously, you are speaking from a different point of view than I am. Even I had suffered an abusive childhood, I'd probably feel differently.

I was spanked as a child. Never that I can remember without a damn good reason. And I was never, ever, beaten or abused. Apparently, you were. If you cannot see the difference between the two - and do NOT even start to impugn my intelligence - maybe it's because you were BEATEN. Someone with even limited intelligence should be able to see the difference.

I was spanked or had my hands slapped. I spanked my daughter or slapped her hands when called for. Get this through your head, please. I was not abused. I was not beaten. I was not hit, switched, kicked, punched, belted or pushed. That is abuse, not discipline.
Anonymous | 10.10.06 - 3:44 pm | #

Anonymous, no offense intended. Please do not insult my intelligence either. If you see a difference between spanking and beating - my prayers go out to your vicims. Just for a larf, the next time you "spank" (*snort*) someone, why don't you beat them an hour later and ask THEM to tell you the difference.

We already know YOU can.
Victim | 10.10.06 - 3:56 pm | #

g-mama | 10.10.06 - 3:40 pm

g-mama, I'm not sure if I would go that far, but the comments that are equating a lack of spanking with a lack of discipline are in my opinion a bit narrow in their thinking.

Also, I'm finding there's a large confusion between "discipline" & "punishment." If you're interested, here's a really good link for the AAP (American Association of Pediatricians) regarding the topic:
http://aappolicy.aappublications...trics;101/4/ 723
I also came across another very interesting & disturbing tidbit when looking up corporal punishment in schools: Every industrialized country in the world now prohibits school corporal punishment, except the U.S., Canada and one state in Australia. http://www.stophitting.com/disat...al% 20Punishment

YIKES. Check out the list of countries around the world who have nationwide bans on corporal punishment in schools. It's disturbing that the US isn't on that list. Seriously, we should take a cue from the Netherlands (who instituted their ban back in 1820 ) - stop hitting the kids, smoke a doobie, and chill. Anyone check out the rates of violent crimes in the Netherlands??? Hmmm, mysteriously low even though they're not whooping the kids in school...
Skrpune | 10.10.06 - 3:58 pm | #

gmama: Anyone else wondering if these are the voices of the next generation of neocons?

Who hase said anything about political leanings? Please - liberals have more backbone, at least they used to. Unlike most of the right, and clearly some here, I don't think I've met a liberal in over 20 years. Another tag that has come to mean nothing. Neocons are simply reformed smokers/alcoholics/fillintheblank, repackaged as bullies.

Indeed, the spoiled bratty kids are the fault of their parents (duh). THAT's THEIR JOB AS PARENTS!
Anonymous | 10.10.06 - 4:07 pm | #

Oops. That last "Anonymous" comment was me, kac90b. Why'd it do that, I wonder. Anyway.

Jeeeezus, "Victim." I have no victims and nobody I know needs your pious little prayers. Like I'm sure you really give a crap.

You obviously had some really fucked-up things happen to you in your formative years - and that is too bad - but please, do not assume that your nasty life experiences were the same as everyone else's.

My parents sometimes spanked my sister and I. We also knew every second of our lives, without question, that they adored and treasured us. I sometimes spanked my daughter. She too knows that she is my much beloved and adored.

Since my only child is now 21 and a dean's list biology major who loves her "mommy" and always thanks her for the good life I've provided for her, I don't think I've done too badly by her. Just like I thank my parents for the wonderful, charmed childhood I had. Particularly when I look around and see what other people had to deal with.

Again, one is sorry you had seriously fucked up issues to deal with, but please try to remember that your's are not everybody else's issues.
kac90b | 10.10.06 - 4:10 pm | #

Need we say more? (from the AAP)

"Despite its common acceptance, and even advocacy for its use,(16) spanking is a less effective strategy than time-out or removal of privileges for reducing undesired behavior in children. Although spanking may immediately reduce or stop an undesired behavior, its effectiveness decreases with subsequent use. The only way to maintain the initial effect of spanking is to systematically increase the intensity with which it is delivered, which can quickly escalate into abuse. Thus, at best, spanking is only effective when used in selective infrequent situations."

But you know the AAP... they base their statements on science and fact. And everyone knows that facts have a well-known liberal bias.
(I don't really think the people here arguing in favor of spanking are budding neocons... but after awhile I do start to feel like I'm arguing with the other side.) Maybe we should just get back to something we can all agree on- like the fact that the Bush administration is ruining this country.
g-mama | 10.10.06 - 4:11 pm | #

Indeed, the spoiled bratty kids are the fault of their parents (duh). THAT's THEIR JOB AS PARENTS!
Anonymous | 10.10.06 - 4:07 pm |

Wow. Talk about being easy on the parents- kids don't need to take responsibility for their actions anymore?
I would suggest The Nurture Assumption: Why Children Turn Out the Way They Do by Judith Rich Harris.
I agree with you that it is the parents' job to shape and influence and teach their children, but in the end it's really up to the child. There are multiple influences on children (biggest and most importantly peers) and for parents to be fully blamed (or to take full credit) for how a child acts is, for lack of a less offensive word, naive.
Anyway, I know in your "gut" it feels like since it worked for you and your children it must be fine, I would expect someone posting here to be a little more apt to rely on logic, reason, and fact than gut. But that's me just assuming, as usual.

And the reason I brought up the neocon issue is that, yes, this discussion is political. Here's another one for your library: Don't Think of an Elephant by George Lakoff. Most progressives fall into the nurturant parent category, not the authoritarian one. That's what made me think of it.

Just think- exactly how we feel arguing this issue is exactly how conservatives feel when they talk to us about a myriad of issues. It's depressing. Everyone is so entrenched in their own worldview. Sometimes it feels pretty hopeless. Doesn't it?
g-mama | 10.10.06 - 4:28 pm | #

THIS Anonymous was me:
Anonymous | 10.10.06 - 3:44 pm | #

NOT this Anonymous:
kac90b | 10.10.06 - 4:43 pm | #

Indeed, it is well known that facts have a liberal (meaning generous) bias.

Studies also show that many studies are full of shizzle. Causality? Maybe. Coorelation? Why bother.

I'm with you sister(?), if we're trashing each other, we ain't trashing the Boob-in-Chief. My final word before runnig off to cuddle/whallop the kinder:

Spanking is good: wrong
Spanking is bad: wrong
Spanking leads to brutish kids who will one day abuse their own and others offspring:
wrong
Lack of spanking leads to poorly behaved kids with a penchant for disrespect:
wrong

(How's that for moral relativism at it's finest?)

Lack of
Anonymous | 10.10.06 - 4:43 pm | #

Thanks, anonymous (by whichever name) for proving my point. Which is:

Why is it the people who spank who refuse to see the difference?

Yeah, my upbringing was rough (Southern Baptists, eh what) and my parents were awful. So I guess I'm not allowed to have an opinion? By your logic, those of the Jewish faith aren't allowed to badmouth the nazis because they didn't have an unbiased experience with them. Sweet Jebus, you can't mean that can you?!

Disagree all you want. I think you're wrong. As I am sure you think I am. (Let me guess - "But victim, you really ARE wrong, dammit!")

I'll close with this:

Spank your kids at 4:00pm and beat (not abuse) your kids at 4:30pm and ask THEM to tell the difference.

I LOVE how you're staying away from that one. Must suck to be exposed like that.
Victim | 10.10.06 - 4:56 pm | #

"Victim:"Yeah, my upbringing was rough (Southern Baptists, eh what) and my parents were awful. So I guess I'm not allowed to have an opinion?

Did you get hit in the head with a frying pan much as a child?

Did I ever, ever say or imply that you are not allowed your opinion? I said you can raise your children any way you see fit, and that obviously we are coming from two different perspectives. Read what I actually wrote, asshat. There's no way you can infer that I think you are not entitled to an opinion because you had an awful upbringing. That is what forms YOUR opinions. That is what forms MINE.

Spank your kids at 4:00pm and beat (not abuse) your kids at 4:30pm and ask THEM to tell the difference. I LOVE how you're staying away from that one. Must suck to be exposed like that.

Obviously, you're incapable of comparative thought on this. I'm not staying away from anything. I know my daughter could tell the difference between a swat on the bottom and getting punched in the mouth or kicked in the stomach or beaten on the legs with a belt. We've talked about her spankings. She knows the difference between spanking and abuse. I know the difference.

I have no problem with parents that choose not to spank their children. Read my posts. I feel badly for children that are abused. However, I was not one of them nor was I an abuser.

I've tried to be sympathetic to differing viewpoints and experiences. But if you can read, read this carefully: Your shitty experiences were not mine, nor were they my child's. I can relate to being spanked - I cannot relate to the type of abuse you endured.

"Exposed" as what? Someone who had a great childhood, loved her parents and was loved by them, even with spankings as opposed to someone who was beaten and rightfully bitter about it? "Exposed" as a mother who is loved and appreciated by her only child, even with the spankings? Seek therapy.

I've tried to be reasonable, but you're running off the rails.
kac90b | 10.10.06 - 5:15 pm | #

As tempting as it might be to do otherwise, I'll be the adult here. You (again) refuse to answer the question. I subscribe to the theory that there is a world of difference between beating and abuse. (Read what I wrote, uh, you rear-end chapeau, you.) There is, however, no difference between spanking and beating. You can deny it all you like. Doesn't make it false.

Try the 4:00pm and 4:30pm test and get back to me.

(Waiting with baited breath to see how you ignore THIS one.)
Victim | 10.10.06 - 5:52 pm | #

Try the 4:00pm and 4:30pm test and get back to me.

I can see why you were beaten as a child. And your "victimhood" has made you angry, bitter and stupid. Anyway.

My daughter is 21 and away at university. Sorry, no spanking today.
kac90b | 10.10.06 - 5:56 pm | #

I see.

Name calling? Check

Obfuscation? Check

Sarcasm? Check

Answer the question? *chirp*

Uh, respond to the issue? *chirp*

Um, hello? *chirp*

#shrug# Must be another "spanker" who got exposed.
Victim | 10.10.06 - 6:14 pm | #

I can see why you were beaten as a child.
kac90b | 10.10.06 - 5:56 pm |

And I can see that you're a mean spirited person. That was a low blow and completely uncalled for, not to mention a window into your soul that I didn't really want to look through.

It's scary how we all can be so callous when it comes to the anonymity that online comments offer. I have been guilty of the snarkiness myself at times, but it's a whole new level of snark to say or imply that someone deserved to be abused.
Skrpune | 10.10.06 - 6:17 pm | #

I know I'm coming into this discussion really late, but I want to propose something: is it possible that different methods of discipline are appropriate under different circumstances and with different children? As has been pointed out, some children take getting spanked as a badge of honor while others learn from it and improve behavior and still others become emotionally scarred by the experience. What worked for your infant might not work for someone else's teenager. I'm no big fan of spanking (it was never used with me), but my girlfriend was spanked as a child on occasion and she turned out just fine.
To bring this back to the original topic of corporal punishment in schools, something needs to be done. The schools really are powerless and detention and parental contact don't seem to do anything. I try to always set a good example for my students, but my short time with them can't compare to the negative influences in their lives outside the schoolhouse. I don't think "pops" would help, especially if done in public, but something needs to be done to improve the discipline and attitudes of our children.
Milhouse | 10.10.06 - 8:49 pm | #

I took three swats instead of three days for Senior Skip Day in high school. The paddle didn't damage me, but the fact that my own mother (a teacher at the school) wrote in the absence note "My son missed class Friday because he participated in Senior Skip Day." has ruined my ability to forge long-lasting relationships with women.

Actually, I get a chuckle when I recall the story. I love ya, mom!
Slacker George | 10.10.06 - 9:27 pm | #

g-mama: if your still reading this thread let me ask you, you talk about the strong willed child that rebels after spanking. Do you teach your children that a 2 year old can outsmart an adult? No you spank them again if they keep disobeying, then if they disobey, you spank them again, and rinse, wash, repeat. Eventually your will proves stronger. Its not about breaking thier will, its about teaching right verses wrong. There is no such thing as a strong willed child. Just one that does not understand what no means.
NSAmole | 10.11.06 - 12:26 am | #

Anonymous wrote:
"Indeed, it is well known that facts have a liberal (meaning generous) bias.

Studies also show that many studies are full of shizzle. Causality? Maybe. Coorelation? Why bother."

Am I talking to O'Reilly? Coulter? Bush? You know, there are studies that prove the earth is flat, too. Jesus Christ! Doesn't anyone understand the scientific method anymore? I'm disappointed- and beginning to think there are trolls among us. Sheez.

NSAmole- yeah, I'm still here, although after reading your thread, I'm beginning to question why the hell I checked again. This was exactly my point. It is much too easy for spanking to escalate and cause serious damage. And since it's been scientifically shown (yes, that damn pesky science again) to be less effective than other methods, I would rather use something less degrading to teach my child right from wrong. In fact, one of our big rules is we don't hit other people. (he's only 2, so the sublety of fighting back hasn't been approached yet) Not sure how in the hell I could teach this lesson while spanking him for other infractions. "Do as I say, not as I do!" Yeah, we know how well that works.
As someone who was spanked and also turned out "fine" (whatever the hell that means) I can tell you that whenever I was spanked, I sure as hell wasn't crying in my room about the terrible thing I had done and how ashamed I felt. I was mad as hell! At my parents. I was fantasizing all sorts of things to do to them- I'll run away, that'll show them, etc. The actual wrongdoing was completely forgotten. I certainly don't want my children "learning" this way.
Like I said before, how you parent doesn't really make a difference anyway (see The Nurture Assumption) so I'm going to err on the side of building a strong relationship with my child, one built on love, trust, and respect- not fear.

But by all means, you go ahead and throttle the crap out of yours. I don't have to parent them.
g-mama | 10.11.06 - 9:07 am | #

Milhouse-
I think you're missing the point. It's been shown that spanking is ineffective. So while different children certainly respond differently, spanking logically shouldn't even be an option.
It's like people think that the only options for discipline are to spank or do nothing. There are about 8 zillion parenting books out there and many of them have pretty good ideas- but why put any effort into parenting? It's not like it's important or anything.
g-mama | 10.11.06 - 9:15 am | #

NSAmole- you also wrote, "Its not about breaking thier will, its about teaching right verses wrong."

No, it's about teaching Might Makes Right. And that is not a value I want my children to have. That is part of what makes me a left-wing, liberal, pinko, progressive whatever.

Ok. I'm done. For now.

(But, as Will Farrell said in Zoolander, "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!!!!")
g-mama | 10.11.06 - 9:20 am | #

And I can see that you're a mean spirited person. That was a low blow and completely uncalled for, not to mention a window into your soul that I didn't really want to look through.

You're right, skrpune. That was a low blow and probably beneath me, but not totally uncalled for. I am not a mean spirited person and quite frankly, don't really care if you do or do not want to "look through the window into my soul." Look at his posts attacking me.

#shrug# Must be another "spanker" who got exposed.
Victim | 10.10.06 - 6:14 pm | #

Ah Victim. You're consistent. I didn't reply last night because there was a service-wide outage of cable last night and I had no computer. Hate to disappoint you, but I was not cowering at your taunts, nor was I away beating my daughter. Who, by the way, thinks this whole attack on me is slightly nuts.

There is, however, no difference between spanking and beating. You can deny it all you like. Doesn't make it false.

Your opinion. Not mine. Your background and experience makes you fundamentally incapable of seeing the difference, as my background and experience makes me fundamentally see a difference. YOU can deny it all you want, doesn't make it true or false.

I find it interesting that in an earlier post you said you were brought up in the southern baptist church. Back in the 70s at my high school, there was a rather large population of southern baptist student, a few of whom were good friends of mine. I remember particularly being at a girl's house when she was (actually) BEATEN, with a belt, for the offense of dishonoring the lord by wearing jeans. Scared the shit out of me and I never went back. Most of the people I know who were beaten, as opposed to being spanked when younger, came from fucked-up families who belonged to fundie churches. Any connection there? Beat your children for the lord?

There is no point in spanking teenagers or kids in grade school. If they are old enough to understand the words coming out of your mouth, there are much more effective means of discipline. If you will take the time to read my earliest posts, I say that spanking is not the first resort and is only reserved for dangerous or harmful behavior. Never appropriate for everyday, run-of-the mill being a kid behavior. Not appropriate for older children.

Your continued insistence on believing that I am or was a child abuser led me to make a low comment. It is a gross mischaracterization of an issue that is every parent's to decide - whether to spank or not. But again, my saying that you should have been beaten was a low blow.

Your ignorant demand that I respond to your every "challenge" and equating the swatting of a child on the bottom with beating them on the head with a board beggars my experience. MY experience. YOU were abused and obviously it has had a rather telling affect on you. I wasn't abused and that has had a rather telling affect on me.

But quit calling me a child abuser. Coming from someone who, from the sounds of it, really was abused, you should know better.
kac90b | 10.11.06 - 10:05 am | #

kac90b- "There is no point in spanking teenagers or kids in grade school. If they are old enough to understand the words coming out of your mouth, there are much more effective means of discipline. If you will take the time to read my earliest posts, I say that spanking is not the first resort and is only reserved for dangerous or harmful behavior. Never appropriate for everyday, run-of-the mill being a kid behavior. Not appropriate for older children."

First off, let me say that I can't believe you're still responding to Victim, who obviously has issues (for obvious reasons). Save your strokes. It's really a lost cause, isn't it? I think most rational people wouldn't by any strectch of the imagination call what you did child abuse. I certainly don't.

That said, I do take issue with your statement above. It's been proven that pretty much any parenting technique is always more effective than spanking, regardless of age. And since you bring up age, how young is too young? Or would you spank a 6 month old if they got into the liquid drano? (in my opinion, when young children get into these sorts of dangerous situations, it's usually because the parent isn't paying close enough attention- happens to all of us, but I'm certainly not going to spank my child for my lapse of attention) I used to believe that it was appropriate to spank a young child when you really needed to get a point across that something is dangerous, etc. But I found better ways. That's all I'm trying to say. Is that there ARE better, more effective ways so why stick to spanking. The argument, "I was spanked, and I turned out ok." isn't a valid argument.
I'm sure your daughter is lovely and you have a great relationship. My parents spanked me and I hold no grudge, either. We're very close (well, except for the fact that they are Bush supporters, but that's another story ).
But just because things turned out ok in the end doesn't mean we shouldn't look for better ways to do it. Studies are done. New information is available. Times change. The status quo sometimes needs to be examined.

ps. how do you teach young children that hitting is wrong if you have hit them in the past? Just a question. Not being snarky. Maybe you didn't have that rule? We do, and I am at a loss for how this would be done. (I'm hoping your answer isn't "do as I say, not as I do")
g-mama | 10.11.06 - 10:35 am | #

i was paddled in high school. i was so humiliated that as soon as i turned 16 i quit high school and do not to this day regret my decision to drop out.
yeah a few pops probably did change the complexion of his school...any kids with problems just quit. all you got left are the barbies and kens.
Jenny'O | 10.11.06 - 11:16 am | #

g-mama: And since you bring up age, how young is too young? Or would you spank a 6 month old if they got into the liquid drano?

You know that no responsible parent would have liquid Drano anywhere near where a child could get to it. And, obviously, spanking a 6-month baby is not under any circumstances appropriate.

There are many effective disciplinary actions for children. Shortly after my daugher was put into public daycare at the age of 3, she told me, in response to my telling her to pick up her toys, "Fuck you, Mommy." Obviously, she'd heard some older kids at the daycare (or some place) say that. Did I spank her? Certainly not. I went into another room so she couldn't see me laughing (not an appropriate response either) and then told her that was not a word that children should say.

I was spanked, and I turned out ok." isn't a valid argument.

Neither is "I was beaten, so nobody should ever spank their child" a valid argument. I have said over and over that I reserved spanking for dangerous situations where I wanted to make absolutely clear that her continuing those actions would get her or someone else injured. Time-out was not immediate or forceful enough, in my opinion.

I think that spanking children under the age of 2 or 2 1/2 would be pretty ineffective. Also, I doubt there are that many dangerous situations they could bring on themselves, in the ordinary course of things, that would justify that.

how do you teach young children that hitting is wrong if you have hit them in the past? ..... Maybe you didn't have that rule? We do, and I am at a loss for how this would be done. (I'm hoping your answer isn't "do as I say, not as I do")

It is a fine line there. I don't recall my daugher ever hitting somebody. However, I didn't ever spank her without explaining (whether she understood or not) why I was doing it. Spanking was not done in revenge, or anger, or for the hell of it. I think she knew she was being disciplined and that one did not go around hitting people just for fun.
kac90b | 10.11.06 - 12:49 pm | #

I can tell you that whenever I was spanked, I sure as hell wasn't crying in my room about the terrible thing I had done and how ashamed I felt. I was mad as hell! At my parents.,/i>

Interesting. I don't recall ever being mad at my parents when they spanked me. Knew I pretty much had it coming. And yes, I would sit in my room and be ashamed of my behavior, because it had to be really bad before my parents spanked me and I knew that. I was "mad" as hell" but at myself.

I was spanked, yet I have never in my life been physically afraid of my parents. I knew they were not going to beat me, or spank me for the slightest little infraction.
kac90b | 10.11.06 - 1:17 pm | #

Damn. Sorry about the absence of tags above.
kac90b | 10.11.06 - 1:26 pm | #

Amazing. You again launch the straw man of me somehow alleging you (or anyone) hit someone over the head with a board. Jeez, do you speak English?

I'm LONG since over my issues (other than the grave spitting - that just feels good ) And, yeah, the church going stuff probably had a lot to do with it.

I would direct you to your own recollection of the beating with a belt for wearing jeans story. I assume you think that's wrong. But what you did was right? I've been a prosecutor for 22 years and I hear every criminal offer an excuse for their behavior that usually begins with how much more wrong someone else was in a wholly unrelated case.

Look, do what you want. Defdnd it all you want. The truth is spanking is beating. Spanking isn't abuse (never said it was). The mere fact you have some sort of arbitrary rules regarding

(1) how many times you strike,

(2) at what magic stroke of midnight on a birthday its okay to hit when at 11:45pm it wasn't because she was only 2 1/2, and ( I assume) that

(3) hitting a child is okay as long as you don't use a weapon

shows me that you are indeed in need of counseling. I had mine and *ahem* turned out just fine.

Good luck with yours.
Victim | 10.11.06 - 2:45 pm | #

The truth is spanking is beating.,/i>

My last comment to you, Victim: Damn. You're stupid.

22 years of prosecutorial experience, eh? And you never learned to properly fisk an argument? Maybe some of us paid more attention in law school.
kac90b | 10.11.06 - 2:50 pm | #

My last comment to you, kac90b:

Good luck and my prayers to you and any children you encounter.
Victim | 10.11.06 - 3:11 pm | #

Oy. I'm having a problem with close tags today.
kac90b | 10.11.06 - 3:11 pm | #

I'm sure your daughter is lovely and you have a great relationship.

Thank you, g-mama. She is and we do. You've been a voice of reason in this debate.
kac90b | 10.12.06 - 10:08 am | #

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