HaloScan.com - Comments

A republican racist? get outta here!
murph | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 4:58 pm | #

He's going to start claiming he's the tar baby; he's sticky enough.
ysbaddaden | 05.16.06 - 4:59 pm | #

well he's off to a good start.

wow. just wow.
smokeyJoe | 05.16.06 - 5:00 pm | #

He also used the term "segregate" earlier in the conference. But to his credit, he managed to avoid using the term "niggardly".

"If I sit silently, I have sinned" - Mohammad Mossadegh
THE MOSSADEGH PROJECT

truth | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 5:01 pm | #

You're doing a heck of a job, Snowie!
Howard Dean | 05.16.06 - 5:02 pm | #

Remember racism doesn't exist to Tony. Here it is in his own words on video.

http://getintheirface.blogspot.c...git- midget.html

LOL. This guys' an Aryan... Even if he doesn't know it yet.
Nate | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 5:03 pm | #

*sigh*
Reason | 05.16.06 - 5:03 pm | #

What's next, Mr. Snow? Pickaninnies? Bucks? Mammies? Don't know nothin' 'bout birthin' no babies?

I said this when he accepted the job. It will not be long before his history of making racist, or at least racially insensitive, remarks will eventually force him from this position.
Gregory | 05.16.06 - 5:04 pm | #

Criminy, what next?
citrus | 05.16.06 - 5:04 pm | #

Aloha, Nate.
Gregory | 05.16.06 - 5:04 pm | #

Tony has the hots for Condi.

Even their names rhyme.
ysbaddaden | 05.16.06 - 5:04 pm | #

In referring to a thorny question regarding President Bush's illegal NSA domestic spying programs as a "tar baby," Tony Snow is just the latest conservative to show why the Republican outreach effort to African-Americans seems doomed to fail. He joins a long list including Ken Mehlman, Senators George Allen, Trent Lott and Jim Demint, Governors Matt Blunt and Haley Barbour, Fox News' own John Gibson, and of course, President Bush.

For the details and recent history, see:
"Snow White."
AvengingAngel | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 5:06 pm | #

Ok I'm willing to give him a break. He didn't seem AT ALL to mean it as a racist put down. He just meant "intractable embrace" or something colloquially better-sounding than this (too pedantic).
Yes of course it is a racist insult and he should realize that this job isn't as forgiving a MUTHA as the luvin' TAR-BABY of FAUX news he enjoyed.

'nuff said the better
Willie Buck Merle | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 5:07 pm | #

Hi Gregory... How's things?
Nate | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 5:08 pm | #

any one wonder why GW's approval ratings among minorities are in the single digits???
freaktown | 05.16.06 - 5:08 pm | #

Willie... Watch link above where he talks about racism on camera.
Nate | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 5:09 pm | #

This is a common phrase from a Brer Rabbit story; I have never heard it used in any other context.
Jesse Holmes | 05.16.06 - 5:09 pm | #

We could be witnessing the shortest tenure as White House PressSec in the history of the office.
Nicho | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 5:09 pm | #

He needs to shut the fuck up.
Lori | 05.16.06 - 5:10 pm | #

Unintentionally offending people is hard work!

The Extremist Rantings Of A Mainstream Progressive
frizzle | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 5:12 pm | #

I love how at the end he uses a poll to support the 'data mining' and then proceeds to tell off another reporter for bringing up a more recent poll saying that national security can't be run on polling
Fylbert | 05.16.06 - 5:12 pm | #

Nice how in one "response", he managed to work in the following memes:

1. USA flash poll says people 65+% of Americans don't care about a program I cannot confirm exists
2. Cannot confirm or deny (and neither can the POTUS)
3. It's not my place to fill you in or clarify anything; I'm only the Press Secretary
4. "Again..." (as in "Let me return to previously-regurgitated talking points")
5. "If you go back and look..." (as in "The President's position has always been consistent. If you were properly educated on this topic, you wouldn't have even bothered to ask your stupid question. Oceania has *always* been at war with Eurasia.")

And let's not forget the "tar baby" remark. This guy is totally living up to the Bush standard. Heckuva job, Snowy!
John Clavis | 05.16.06 - 5:15 pm | #

I hates me my republicans, but I'm willing to give Snow the benefit of the doubt here... it's pretty obvious that he is referring to the great Uncle Remus story of Brer Rabbit and the Tar Baby (see http://www.otmfan.com/html/brertar.htm). It's a great story, and one I like to refer to in my conversations when I can. Heck, even PZ Meyers of Pharyngula has a recent post in which he refers to the same story: "which reeks of pleas not to be thrown in that there briar patch, Br'er Fox" (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/03/ the_dawkinsdennett_boogeyman.php). I don't see anything racist in his blog.

The point is this -- stay focused, and be shrill about the things that count. My judgement is that this doesn't count for much, and I doubt that Snow's even of the upbringing where that would be a potential slip of the tongue he has to monitor in polite company.

Snow has, and will have, much more to answer for... pounce on that.
gordonsowner | 05.16.06 - 5:17 pm | #

The same obfuscation, the same lies, the same spin just another media clown representing the whitehouse.
Fred | 05.16.06 - 5:17 pm | #

Nicho | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 5:09 pm

LOL. He is up against tough competition as well.
citrus | 05.16.06 - 5:18 pm | #

Wow. That effort was terrible. He came in below my already low expectations.
m | 05.16.06 - 5:18 pm | #

i think snow is going to be a ticking time bomb for this administration if this outburst is standard procedure. onething about scottie was that he just kept saying the same damn thing again and again, and only rarely did he loose his composure. the clips we see hear on crooks and liars are his major meltdowns, and even then he's still pretty together. scottie was a slippery snake, but this radio wackjob is going to blow it. i can just see it now. am i crazy or is this ridiculous era finally coming to an end. when can i start to believe my eyes and celebrate?

PS: i was recently trying to find out a little about mr. amato, but he doesn't have a wiki. can you believe that? i mean, he played with ringo, someone make him a wiki!
actual | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 5:18 pm | #

Save the outrage for something a little more serious than this. His use, while weird, was not offensive in context. Citing a Random House web page is hardly authoritative. You can find plenty of other legitimate references (e.g., http://www.bartleby.com/61/63/T0.../T0046300.html) which do not ascribe this meaning.
ddp | 05.16.06 - 5:19 pm | #

Why does Tony Snow not want to hug black people and why does he hate America? That is a well know racial slur.
uppity kitty | 05.16.06 - 5:19 pm | #

this has got to be a distraction strategy. "Hey look at me over here, I'm saying tar baby".
Freedom From | 05.16.06 - 5:19 pm | #

Maybe it is a reference to the B'rer Rabbit story, but isn't that reference alone rascist since the story mimics the vocal patterns of slaves?

Why hasn't Uncle Tom sued Uncle Remus who could've sued Bugs Bunny yet?
ysbaddaden | 05.16.06 - 5:19 pm | #

OH COME ON LETS BE SERIOUS

A "tar baby" is something that sticks to you like tar, needs your complete attention and grows and grows no matter what you do!!

THE FACT THAT SOME ASSHOLE USED IT AS AN INSULT YEARS AGO DOESNT MEAN THAT IT SHOULD NOW BE REMOVED FROM USE!! GET OVER IT AND STOP LOOKING FOR RACIAL INSULTS IN WHATEVER U SEE AND HEAR. YOUR MAKING YOUR SELF LOOK LIKE DERSHUWITLESS DURING THE IMPEACHMENT TRIAL!!
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 5:20 pm | #

Maybe it was purposeful. To feed the culture warriors on the Right. Since they can't handle real news, right-wing talk show can now spend tomorrow spewing venom about "the oppressive word-police of the politically correct Left." And ignoring the real issues. Maybe Snow will drop nuggets like these every time to feed that Fox-feed strawman culture war.
House of Bush, House of Saud | 05.16.06 - 5:21 pm | #

UU. was right, he is a uniter

unite the country into fucking hating this fucking administration and the bought and sold (or pressured at best) complicit rubberstampers in congress
tofubo | 05.16.06 - 5:21 pm | #

If people react to this strongly, and they have reason to, the right will start harping about being PC and being taken out of context.
krotop | 05.16.06 - 5:23 pm | #

This was deliberate usage.
This administration is using everything they have to try to appease the moronic majority that the "whites" need to reclaim America.
Make no mistake, this was done on purpose. Bush is smirking right now. RIGHT F'ING NOW!
Targa | 05.16.06 - 5:24 pm | #

Ya all doan git it does ya? Mr. Snow is 'evergisin' da base'. Wake up and smell the lynchin' homer.

This is what American is: Racist to the bone.

Did the presser git on him...nah, dey all racist fucks too.
.
A. Citizen | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 5:25 pm | #

"hug the tar baby"... HOLY FUCK!

from now on, I'm going to use the term "wax the cracker".

Good is bad. Bad is good.
Why does George W. Bush and his minions hate America?
Targa | 05.16.06 - 5:25 pm | #

I think the problem is that Snow is supposed to be a professional speaker, otherwise why would he have been given such an important public relations post? Realistically, we all know why he was assigned to the job, but let's play devil's advocate for a minute. To be press secretary, you have to have charisma, and the ability to think on your feet. Using statements such as "tar baby" is just asking for trouble. I know the origin of the term, but in 2006 if you say that term to the average person on the street, what do you think they are going to think it refers to? Snow should try to be as innocuous as possible, especially early on. I mean, that is common sense. Does the Bush administration really want added stress right now? Sheesh. Unless, like another poster above said, it is distraction, which would make sense in a warped, BushCo sort of way.
citrus | 05.16.06 - 5:27 pm | #

Negro, Please.
Cato the Yankee | 05.16.06 - 5:28 pm | #

It's so hard to find good help these days.
Captain Kangaroo | 05.16.06 - 5:29 pm | #

"tar baby" as I know it comes from Joel Chandler Harris' tales of Uncle Remus. The tar baby is a baby made of tar and each time you hit it you get stuck. Ultimatly you cannot get loose. Iraq is a "tar baby". I have never thought of the term as racist.

I don't like Snow but I don't think his use of the term was recist.
Henry | 05.16.06 - 5:30 pm | #

Nate, ok I watched it. He is just #45845985948 of the racists I've learned to tolerate so far in my life (heh). If he is a stand up guy he will address all of his ludicrous comments by tomorrow's meeting. Also as an aside, I wonder if he would have used the term if answering a question from a non-white (Susan Malveaux, a TOTAL FOX BTW).

I'm guessing probably not... even 'the decider' isn't that THICKHEADED.

05/16/2006
SUSAN MALVEAUX: What is the president's response to your use of the phrase "Tar baby"?
TONY SNOW: Well Sugah, he like me believes that racism is just a bunch of hooey from all those New Yawk Joos. Say child, why don't you come up to the house tonite for some good ol' GOP fried chicken and peas?

sorry :P
Willie Buck Merle | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 5:30 pm | #

Yep, the C&L chorus that posts here are getting a wee bit blood thirsty having a throw-down on ANY and ALL reports thrown on this blog, regardless of their severity.

By seeing this idiot use a phrase, which in his context was harmless, you, the hatemonger C&L reader just has to freak out and cry your liberal version of "henny penny!" but in reality, you need to CTFD (calm the fuck down) because it was dumb. If anything, the attention should be placed on...whatever the topic was he was talking about..not taht I cared!
ironchef | 05.16.06 - 5:30 pm | #

I don't have an OED in front of me, but I'm guessing the origination of Tar Baby is from the Uncle Remus stories, which, in 2006, could be interpreted as derrogatory and racist. Whether or not Tony Snow meant it as anything racist, which I can't believe he would, it is still horrific that he would use this word.
Lean more about the stories of Uncle Remus here: http://www.uncleremus.com/
kathotdog | 05.16.06 - 5:30 pm | #

I guess Kiss a Lepper might be better..Colbert would have been a better choice W !!
jack meoffer | 05.16.06 - 5:32 pm | #

it is still horrific that he would use this word. - kathotdog

Horrific? Uh, why? Wouldn't something like "..no WMD's here!...none under here!" be horrific? please...
ironchef | 05.16.06 - 5:33 pm | #

Hey Jesse, never seen the classic Richard Pryor Chevy Chase SNL clip, when Pryor was interviewing for a job. One of the racial slurs Chevy used was "Tar Baby".

Part of it went like this...

Pryor: Honkey

Chase: Nigger

Pryor: Dead Honkey

Chase: You got the job.
Greg | 05.16.06 - 5:33 pm | #

Get over it.

You're just as stupid as the people who were pissed at the guy who said "niggardly."

God, this is stupid. Harping on this makes you look and sound stupid.
Blomi | 05.16.06 - 5:34 pm | #

im less concerned with what words he is using and more concerned why we even have a press conference to answer questions when all that is asked gets dodged and dismissed.

what's the point?
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 5:35 pm | #

He also used the term "segregate" earlier in the conference. But to his credit, he managed to avoid using the term "niggardly".

even though niggardly is a perfectly acceptable term that means miserly

hopefully you were being sarcastic
Blomi | 05.16.06 - 5:35 pm | #

Hug the Tar Baby...oh shit.LOL
byrdchest | 05.16.06 - 5:35 pm | #

My 2 cents: No big deal. He might be even purposely baiting people that want to jump on him for something. He knows it wouldn't hurt GW for the press secretary to take a little heat.

By the way, that poll is a crock of shit and if our liberal media weren't so damn busy spending their war-profiteering dollars, maybe they'd conduct a legitimate one.

Why the bullshit, "I can't confirm the existence of the program crap?" Does anyone believe for a second that this information (collection of millions of Verizon et al. phone records)would be useful in catching terrorists?
Original Bill | 05.16.06 - 5:36 pm | #

Ahem...testing.

From now on...

He's Tony Slur.

Ferris out.
Ferris | 05.16.06 - 5:36 pm | #

I second the motion, Ferris.
Targa | 05.16.06 - 5:37 pm | #

Using that descriptive phrase wouldn't get him fired by bush. He could stand up there fire off a round of shotgun shells at an old man and still keep his job.
Marge | 05.16.06 - 5:37 pm | #

When you don't have a producer bailing your ass out............seems like it awfully hard not to get sandbagged by the truth.

Snow is a dolt just like the rest of them
Chris | 05.16.06 - 5:38 pm | #

OPP, how can I explain it
I'll take you frame by frame it
To have y'all jumpin' shall we singin' it
O is for Other, P is for People scratchin' temple
The last P...well...that's not that simple
It's sorta like another way to call a cat a kitten
It's five little letters that are missin' here
You get on occassion at the other party
As a game 'n it seems I gotta start to explainin'
Bust it
You ever had a girl and met her on a nice hello
You get her name and number and then you feelin' real mellow
You get home, wait a day, she's what you wanna know about
Then you call up and it's her girlfriend or her cousin's house
It's not a front, F to the R to the O to the N to the T
It's just her boyfriend's at her house (Boy, that's what is scary)
It's OPP, time other people's what you get it
There's no room for relationship there's just room to hit it
How many brothers out there know just what I'm gettin' at
Who thinks it's wrong 'cos I'm splittin' and co-hittin' at
Well if you do, that's OPP and you're not down with it
But if you don't, here's your membership

Chorus:
You down with OPP (Yeah you know me) 3X
Who's down with OPP (Every last homie)
You down with OPP (Yeah you know me) 3X
Who's down with OPP (All the homies)

As for the ladies, OPP means something gifted
The first two letters are the same but the last is something
different
It's the longest, loveliest, lean-- I call it the leanest
It's another five letter word rhymin' with cleanest and meanest
I won't get into that, I'll do it...ah...sorta properly
I say the last P...hmmm...stands for property
Now lady here comes a kiss, blow a kiss back to me, now tell me
exactly
Have you ever known a brother who have another like ah girl or wife
And you just had to stop and just 'cos he look just as nice
You looked at him, he looked at you and you knew right away
That he had someone but he was gonna be yours anyway
You couldn't be seen with him and honestly you didn't care
'Cos in a room behind a door no one but y'all are there
When y'all are finish, y'all can leave and only y'all would know
And then y'all could throw the skeleton bones right in the closet do'
Now don't be shocked 'cos if you're down I want your hands up high
Say OPP (OPP) I like to say with pride
Now when you do it, do it well and make sure that it counts
You're now down with a discount

Chorus:
You down with OPP (Yeah you know me) 3X
Who's down with OPP (Every last lady)
You down with OPP (Yeah you know me) 3X
Who's down with OPP (All the ladies)

This girl ah tried to OPP me
I had a girl and she knew that matter-of-fact my girl was partner's
that
Had a fall out, disagreement, yeah an argument
She tried to do me so we did it in my apartment, bust it
That wasn't the thing it must have been the way she hit the ceiling
'Cos after that she kept on coming back and catchin' feelings
I said, "Let's go my girl is coming so you gotta leave"
She said, "Oh no, I love you Treach" I said, "Now child please"
You gots to leave, come grab your coat, right now you gotta go
I said now look you to the stairs and to the stairwindow
This was a thing, a little thing, you shouldn't have put your heart
'Cos you know I was OPP, hell from the very start
Come on, come on, now let me tell you what it's all about
When you get down, you can't go 'round runnin' off at the mouth
That's rule number one in this OPP establishment
You keep your mouth shut and it won't get back to her or him
Exciting isn't it, a special kinda business
Many of you will catch the same sorta OPP is you with
Him or her for sure is going to admit it
When OPP comes, damn-- skippy I'm with it

Chorus:
You down with OPP (Yeah you know me) 3X
Who's down with OPP (This whole party)
You down with OPP (Yeah you know me) 3X
Who's down with OPP (This whole party)

Break it down!
Cato the Yankee | 05.16.06 - 5:38 pm | #

The Slurmiester
jack meoffer | 05.16.06 - 5:38 pm | #

--Using that descriptive phrase wouldn't get him fired by bush. He could stand up there fire off a round of shotgun shells at an old man and still keep his job.
Marge | 05.16.06 - 5:37 pm | #

LMAO!!

sadly, you're prolly right.
byrdchest | 05.16.06 - 5:40 pm | #

Oh, I can't wait until the nitwit points to a reporter and says, "You, the black one," or "You, oriental lady."
valerief | 05.16.06 - 5:41 pm | #

Oh, I can't wait until the nitwit points to a reporter and says, "You, the black one," or "You, oriental lady."
valerief | 05.16.06 - 5:41 pm

Well, they MIGHT could be at the back of the press room... or in another room altogether... probably.
Targa | 05.16.06 - 5:42 pm | #

maybe he is a gay racist xenophobic klansman?

sounds right for one of the decider's choices. when he wants to tell the blacks what he thinks, he appoints yet another person to insure that they will be denegrated.

smart move for bush. what is next, back to africa again? maybe mexico?

amazing
oldtree | 05.16.06 - 5:42 pm | #

"You, morons."

This means YOU.
Blomi | 05.16.06 - 5:42 pm | #

I also only heard tar baby used in the context of the Brear Rabbit.

I just took it to mean that he doesn't want to get himself in a situation he can't extricate himself from.

You can blame the man for a lot of things, but in this case, racism is pushing it.

So "tar baby" is really a racially loaded term? Boy is my face red. Funny story, actually...

Not to long ago I ended a response on a discussion board with with the comment "I'm done kicking the tar baby now."

I seriously had no clue that it could be interpreted as a racial slur.
Oops! You'd think someone would have said something.

Anyway, the pot (being me) will refrain from comment... especially on judgements of color. (The pun was there. I had to take it.)
Mostly Harmless | 05.16.06 - 5:42 pm | #

Cato the Yankee | 05.16.06 - 5:38 pm

I had no idea you penned that tune.
I doubt many folks who visit this site did, either.
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 5:43 pm | #

To be press secretary, you have to have charisma, and the ability to think on your feet.

Did you not pay attention through the whole Scott McClellan tenure?
RR | 05.16.06 - 5:43 pm | #

Mostly Harmless | 05.16.06 - 5:42 pm

Ok, so it that an admission that perhaps you aren't the most viable candidate for Presidential Press Secretary?
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 5:44 pm | #

hey ironchef how about not worrying about what we write or think....i'm sick to death of puke repugs telling this public how to think so shove it ...moron
rb,bushisaliar | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 5:45 pm | #

He's much smoother than Mclellan but gets rattled if questioned repeatedly. Love that part where he uses a poll and says security shouldn't be decided upon by polls.

Is there a special place in hell where they grow people like Mclellan, Snow, publicists, and movie producers?
srgtick | 05.16.06 - 5:46 pm | #

seems these are the times where being racist is becoming socially acceptable and people will not only condone it but defend it as well. just look at many of the comments on this board.
john x | 05.16.06 - 5:46 pm | #

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/tar+baby

Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

"something from which it is nearly impossible to extricate oneself "

though slang (below) seems to give it more definitions, i always knew it to mean the same thing tony snow does,, a sticky situation that just gets worse when u try to fix it..

Just who is it that decided they can change the use of our English language and its definitions? same with the word "gay" which has always meant, "happy" ..and nothing more!!!

*****************************
Tar Baby

the doll smeared with tar, set to catch Brer Rabbit (1881); hence transf., spec. an object of censure; a sticky problem, or one which is only aggravated by attempts to solve it(colloq.);
a derog. term for a Black (U.S.) or a Maori (N.Z.).
something from which it is nearly impossible to extricate oneself.
n. a "sticky problem" (20th century use).
A Black person (used in the U.S., 1940s).
A derogatory term for a Maori (used in N.Z., 1950s).
A Negro baby. Cf. Tar pot (sense 1) (U.S. colloquial, mid 1800s-present).

**************************

Even gay has changed over and over. It started out as "happy" , then it meant "homosexual" as a slur.. now kids today use "gay" in almost every sentence that comes out of their mouths.. to mean "stupid" or "ridiculous" or "lame"...

While we are asking for our country back, could I also inject we ask for our language back too?

P.S. "anyways" is NOT plural
BJ | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 5:48 pm | #

"Oopsie! Thought I was still on Fox ." Isn't Tony Snow the guy that said "racism doesn't exist anymore???
brian | 05.16.06 - 5:49 pm | #

Of course he does.

It's part of the whole "code" thing of republicans, which even white democrats are happy to further: surround an insult with "plausible deniability", and it's all good.

Just standard white folks for you.
cdj | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 5:50 pm | #

Blomi, congratulations, I think you've figured out sarcasm. Don't feel too embarrassed, truth frequently makes posts that require brain activity for understanding.

Unscientifically, although it looks like several of the posters here would not have used the term "tar baby" themselves, the majority of folks here figure there are bigger fish to fry. So, claims of shrill left-wing chat rooms (certain to be forthcoming from trolls) are hyperbole.

I am finding the "intentional use" argument very compelling, myself. Kind of reminds me of Rush Limbaugh on Monday Night Football. He was trying to make himself the story.
Original Bill | 05.16.06 - 5:50 pm | #

must say that while it's same spin as usual, i find snow much less odious a character than scotty...
james madison | 05.16.06 - 5:53 pm | #

kathotdog | 05.16.06 - 5:30 pm | #

By the way, your assessment is totally off the mark and it is not horrific he used the term.. it is more like he's educated and well read then the general uneducated public whom are not.

Younger generation needs to learn to pick up a book, or two..or three..
BJ | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 5:53 pm | #

Come on now...he clearly meant it in the terms of "a sticky situation". Let's just calm down. You guys need to quit taking things so damn seriously. Most people have better things to do with their time...in fact, I need to go nigger rig my car right now.
The Decider | 05.16.06 - 5:54 pm | #

He slipped up. Sorry, but if we start going crazy over that now then we're gonna have very little credibility when he actually does start getting retarded.
Zach | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 5:54 pm | #

The groups, in order of power, who refer to CNN CBS and ABC as the "Liberal Media"

KKK
Neo-Nazis
Fox News
Bush Administration

Good company to be in Tony Snow, movin on to be the official Press Secretary is a hell of a step up. I look forward to your letter of resignation
50 Blue States | 05.16.06 - 5:54 pm | #

The only racism I've seen lately is on so-called liberal blogs like this one.
dee ray | 05.16.06 - 5:55 pm | #

"seems these are the times where being racist is becoming socially acceptable and people will not only condone it but defend it as well. just look at many of the comments on this board."

Total crock of shit. No one here is defending racism. They're claiming what he said wasn't racist.

Huge. Gigantic difference.
Derek | 05.16.06 - 5:55 pm | #

I'm perfectly willing to let Tony Snow publicly demonstrate his knowledge of figures of speech. Yes, it could be considered racially offensive, but clearly that is not the manner in which it was intended. I agree, lighten up. Tony Snow is going to give us MUCH more than this in months to come.
Dennis | 05.16.06 - 5:56 pm | #

When Helen Thomas asked a question, Tony Snow said:

"Let's try to segregate the story here..."

So, he also (albeit subliminally) mentions segregation during his press conference.
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 5:56 pm | #

BJ, could you blow chimpy so that we can impeach him already?

And since when are books that are full of racist stereotypes an important part of being "literate" or getting a good education?

You are an uneducated fool to think that we should all read that crap that demeans and insults large groups of Americans.
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 5:57 pm | #

must say that while it's same spin as usual, i find snow much less odious a character than scotty...
james madison | 05.16.06 - 5:53 pm | #

Maybe its because Tony isn't as fat and sweaty?

By the way, the test of the "intentional use" theory is if the "liberal media" picks this up and starts talking about how offensive this was.
Original Bill | 05.16.06 - 5:58 pm | #

I think we shouldn't be so wrapped up in the potential "racism" of the term since we all know the proper context.
What we SHOULD be focusing on is that in his very first press conference, Snow admitted he can't tell the truth because it'll get him into trouble.
------------------------------------------------
But clearly it's much more fun for folks to clutch their pearls indignantly over Snow's phraseology.
wtf | 05.16.06 - 5:58 pm | #

He should be fired.

The Racial Slur Database:
Tar Baby Represents: Blacks Reasons/Origins: Skin color. From the "Uncle Remus" (Br'er Rabbit) story.
http://www.rsdb.org /

List of Ethnic Slurs
Tar baby (U.K.; U.S.; and N.Z.) a black child.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Lis...of_ethnic_slurs

Go into a meeting and throw around the term "tar baby".

Assuming you have meetings and there are African Americans or someone from HR attending.

Kiss your job goodbye.

This isn't some blogger or a network hairdo. This is the Press Secretary of the White House.
onehandle | 05.16.06 - 5:58 pm | #

Dee ray, don't get out much?
Original Bill | 05.16.06 - 5:59 pm | #

How about we just proclaim everyone an asshate and just get along...
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 5:59 pm | #

WHAT HE SAID TAR BABY?

THAT MOTHER FOCKER CRACKER! Are we back to 1950's again? Are we back to being a nation of white crackers? I say nay, I say lets stop them now before they get the white robes out followed with burning crosses.

My guess they have their robes and crosses ready,...FOCKERS
IN THE COLD | 05.16.06 - 6:01 pm | #

Let me preface this by saying that I abhor the Bush Regime.

I also do not think that some should be vilified for using an expression in a way that was clearly not meant to be derogatory.

If I had more time I would find a way to include 'niggardly' in my comments in a way that was nuanced and witty.

Beware the language police.

Let me bookend this by saying again... I abhor the Bush Regime and all it represents.

Best to you all.
Thomas | 05.16.06 - 6:01 pm | #

It's Tony's sticky situation. much ado
apeman | 05.16.06 - 6:01 pm | #

But clearly it's much more fun for folks to clutch their pearls indignantly over Snow's phraseology.
wtf | 05.16.06 - 5:58 pm | #

And, when you say "clutch their pearls", what does that imply?
Original Bill | 05.16.06 - 6:01 pm | #

I don't feel comfortable in this "gotcha" type of assault. I'd rather you look at the substance of what he was trying to say and pick apart the falsehoods or discrepancies thereof. This post just weakens the foundation of ligitimate criticisms by going off in this silly tangent, IMHO.
cetylovx | 05.16.06 - 6:03 pm | #

Aw com'on. The tar baby in the Uncle Remus story was a clever strategem, not a racial slur. I applaud the tar baby, as I do Little Black Sambo, the clever South Indian who outwitted the tiger out to eat him. These are both exemplary examples of high intelligence and should not be construed by anybody as derogatory. I remember a couple of years back that somebody nearly got fired over the use of the word 'niggardly', a word meaning 'stingey' from a Norse root that has no connection to the root 'niger', Latin for 'black'. Perhaps I should object to Lemon Pledge, as I am half Polish, or to any italic typefaces since I am half Italian. Oy, the ignorance!
VJB | 05.16.06 - 6:03 pm | #

He can't possibly be ignorant of the derogatory nature of that term. Sounds like a ploy to get Tony on the front page to distract from other Bush failures.
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 6:03 pm | #

Bush should have his own TV Show

"Fall Guy"
USSA | 05.16.06 - 6:03 pm | #

very OT. I'm not a conspiracy guy, but anyone check out the video sequence on MSNBC of the "airplane" hitting the Pentagon? Watch it a few times. Ecspecialy the first part. I don't see a plane. It looks more like the trail from a missle. Like I said, I'm not big on all the Charlie Sheen 911 conspiracy crap, but this is to wierd.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12818225/
Greg | 05.16.06 - 6:05 pm | #

Happy Snow Day, ya tar baby ya!
bibimimi~☆ | 05.16.06 - 6:06 pm | #

truth 05.16.06 - 5:01 pm |

I picked up on that "segregate" thing too! Where is the mind of Tony "racism no longer exists" Snow at...

Of course Tony Snow was not trying to be offensive, and I'm actually somewhat heartened that a member of the Bush administration can use a metaphor - and not a sports metaphor, either! That being said, the term "tar baby" is unfortunately pretty loaded. While I'm sure someone has cued in Snow by now about his choice of words, context is everything and I don't see how anyone could think he's using the term as a racial slur.
Batocchio | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 6:06 pm | #

Ok, so it that an admission that perhaps you aren't the most viable candidate for Presidential Press Secretary?

Well, I don't think I could lie through my teeth for a living anyway. Bad for the Karma.

My self deprecating comment was meant to point out that people were blowing this whole thing out of proportion.

You gotta pick your battles.

We have enough actual problems to be outraged about like... ohh... I dunno... The breach of privacy Snow's trying to cover for.
Mostly Harmless | 05.16.06 - 6:06 pm | #

Are we really going to abrogate a perfectly good expression, and a fine specimine of cultural heritage, just because a bunch of racist knuckleheads have hijacked a word? Puh-leeze, I mean, anyone for Freedom Fries?
Geoff | 05.16.06 - 6:09 pm | #

Oh my god, what a fricking racist moron. The guy cant finish a complete thought. Maybe it's all the hate that keeps boiling up in his head from his black heart. Segregation AND TarBaby in the same press conference. That has to be some kind of record. Half of what comes out of his mouth is nonsense - literally, it's half a sentence, then change topic, then call on the next reporter. Could he be any more useless?
Geoff | 05.16.06 - 6:11 pm | #

I understand those who refernce the Uncle Remus stories for the context of the term "tar baby". My grandmother would read me these stories when I was too young to read.

Mostly, I heard the term in the mid to late 60's in the American South, directed at blacks as a slur. Recently I have heard the term used as a slur against Arabs. I would think that Mr. Snow, fine Southern gentleman or not, would understand that the derogatory usage makes this analogy a poor choice.

Was this usage intentional? I have no idea but I do think that Snow is a second rate hack, which makes him over qualified to serve in the buschco White House.

Having been called a "paddy" in England, I understand how certain "harmless" are anything but.
Gregory | 05.16.06 - 6:11 pm | #

I don't think any serious case can be made that Snow is a racist because he used the term "tar baby." As others have already pointed out, it was simply a reference to Uncle Remus/Bre'er Rabbit. Making a fuss about dubious examples of latent racism only distracts attention from the many overt examples of real racism embraced by this administration.

Although it doesn't establish him as a racist, his use of the term "tar baby" most emphatically does establish him as a moron and a lousy press secretary! There is no escuse for the White House Press Secretary not anticipating a firestorm of criticism for using such and incredibly loaded term.

What a dolt!
Chesire11 | 05.16.06 - 6:13 pm | #

no personal attacks

Edited By Siteowner
Geoff | 05.16.06 - 6:14 pm | #

The media is gonna focus on his weepy "momemnt", not the fact he got off on the wrong foot saying something stupid.

I feel bad he had to go through what he did but I know a couple cancer survivors that don't advertise they beat their disease. They don;t wear wristbands. They donate money to foundations and attend functions.

This may sound crass but the yellow wrist band sticking out was his life jacket today and he used it.No one will remember anything else he said today because he cried and looked human for a couple of minutes.

Lastly, I saw Susan Mal comment on how refreshing it was he said "I don't know about any of that" when asked a question. She also said other reporters cried with him joining in the moment and loved him.

The Tar baby thing will drift away....
Andy | 05.16.06 - 6:15 pm | #

Say what you will, had Bush hired him, Colbert wouldn't have said "tar baby!"
Chesire11 | 05.16.06 - 6:15 pm | #

I am sorry to speak this way: but is he out of his fucking mind?

R2K
Alex | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 6:15 pm | #

"very OT. I'm not a conspiracy guy, but anyone check out the video sequence on MSNBC of the "airplane" hitting the Pentagon? Watch it a few times. Ecspecialy the first part. I don't see a plane. It looks more like the trail from a missle. Like I said, I'm not big on all the Charlie Sheen 911 conspiracy crap, but this is to wierd."

If their is one law that needs passed now it is that all surveillance cameras be hires. These grainy videos are so 1980s. Doesn't matter if it is a footage of plane, a missile, or a some guy holding up a video store, get some good video. Also in the same law no more streaming video that makes it difficult to review and scrub.

That being said, I am still not convinced. How big was this airplane? From what I understand the Pentagon is 3 or 4 stories, I would think that the airplane/missile in the video would be taller. Now it could be gouging the ground in which case it would be lower, but that is either a small airliner or it is a missile.

On topic. I am not ready to label Tony Snow a racist. Maybe it was just a poor choice of words, he should of said I am not ready to embrace that sticky mess.
Gil Grissom | 05.16.06 - 6:16 pm | #

oh come on - this is "news"??

Not a peep about Klever Karl being indicted on Saturday (http://informationclearinghouse.info/ article13038.htm) and we have our knickers in a knot over a nearly forgotten tale of BrierRabbit?!?!?
biff | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 6:17 pm | #

There's a few antisemites here. Of course they're too pussy to admit it.
Cato the Yankee | 05.16.06 - 6:18 pm | #

biff,
The second that Rove is actually indicted then we will be talking about nothing else.

Just killing time, waiting for the main event to start.
Gregory | 05.16.06 - 6:19 pm | #

I'm beginning to wonder if this tar baby wasn't really a red herring.
Robuzo | 05.16.06 - 6:20 pm | #

I say we run him outa town on a rail.
Canuck Stuck in Muck | 05.16.06 - 6:20 pm | #

lets call him snow baby
actual | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 6:25 pm | #

Come on, it's clear from the context that he's not using the phrase with any racist connotations.

Like someone earlier in the comments said, pick your battles. This ain't one of 'em.
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 6:25 pm | #

He slipped up. Sorry, but if we start going crazy over that now then we're gonna have very little credibility when he actually does start getting retarded.
Zach | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 5:54 pm | #

Zach, people,. who the fuck old are you anyway?

He did NOT slip up! it is a common enough term to many adults. geeze!!!

*******************************
The only racism I've seen lately is on so-called liberal blogs like this one.
dee ray | 05.16.06 - 5:55 pm | #

ahhhh wrong again.. there is no racism if only some ignorance.. which we see plenty of on the right..

**********************

Huge. Gigantic difference.
Derek | 05.16.06 - 5:55 pm | #

couldn't agree more.. I'm flabbergasted at the ignorance

*******************************

When Helen Thomas asked a question, Tony Snow said:

"Let's try to segregate the story here..."

So, he also (albeit subliminally) mentions segregation during his press conference.
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 5:56 pm | #

give me a fucking break.. this is why so many people laugh at liberals, you make jack asses out of yourselves fueling ridiculous accusations like this.. prove he said segregation instead of separation..

if it was meant as sarcasm..it's a little hard to tell when u post as "anonymous" and there are so many ridiculous serious comments like it here..

**********************************
onehandle | 05.16.06 - 5:58 pm | #

you are wrong, he shouldn't be fired, maybe you should grow up, get the fuck off the blogs and pick up a damn book and get an education in the English language..
************************************

Dumbshits it was not said or meant in a racially provoked manner. If you think it was, then you are very young, or very stupid, or both.

If you are a sincere liberal, don't ya think maybe you should use some common sense and really fight about the important things? Get all fired up about the environment? The ploys they are using already towards the November election? 2008?

If you come off sounding fucking stupid like you are in this thread, some of you, then who is going to pay attention to you when it's a really serious situation? a realistic situation?
BJ | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 6:26 pm | #

At which point in the video does the record-getting-bumped scratch noise happen?
Captain Awesome | 05.16.06 - 6:26 pm | #

Good grief, despite being with Fox News, Snow always seemed to be at least an intelligent, articulate guy. Now that he's working for Bushitler, he's already turning into a moronic, drooling toady!
Darth_Cheney | 05.16.06 - 6:27 pm | #

Does it bother anyone at all that he and others are now using the "I can neither confirm nor deny" talking-point?

That's spook lingo. He's a PR guy. Or is he?

In other words the administration--potentially anyone in it--feels that national secrets are theirs, not ours. Blurring the line between who's in the intelligence business is strike one. Placing everyone outside the administration as complete outsiders to the affairs of the nation is strike two.

Shitting on democracy every damn day...you're out. Way out.
Bit NOLA | 05.16.06 - 6:27 pm | #

what a rocker
rend | 05.16.06 - 6:27 pm | #

Hey, it's not like he called Les a tar baby though he did go with the more formal, "Lester" and he called Lance Armstrong, Lance Anderson. Maybe he can have a press gaggle after the press conferences to apologize for his malpropisms during the press conference. It's hard to go from critic to suck up in such a short time. Hang in there, SnowJob, you're just getting your legs under you as part of this unbelieveably corrupt regime.
paul Miller | 05.16.06 - 6:27 pm | #

Okay, so he said a phrase that can be used as a slur, in a way that was obviously not intended to be a slur. Making a big deal out of non-issues like this only serves to drown out your voice when there is actually something that needs to be highlighted.

Should be be offended when someone asks for crackers? What if I develop a chink in my armor? My god, earlier I cleaned my floor with Spic-and-Span! I own a coon skin cap!

See? It's just as stupid as this.
blahblah | 05.16.06 - 6:29 pm | #

I give Snow three months tops. He is in way over his deluded head. He thought that the world was like Faux News, that he was a to-be-pampered star in his new job.
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 6:29 pm | #

Big fucking deal.

So he used an antiquated term that 'could be' interpreted as racist -- and here's the key -- in CERTAIN CONTEXTS.

So what?

I say we call a spade a spade here and allow that unless someone is expressly using an innocuous term in an offensive way, then we're not going to jump all over them for it.

Also, unless you are an actual member of the supposedly offended group, then you don't get to complain.

PS: When are them darkies gonna get over that whole 'slavery' thing anyway?
Bobby Jones | 05.16.06 - 6:30 pm | #

You have to excuse Tony.
It was a slip of the tongue.

He meant to say "Porch Monkey"
Plug | 05.16.06 - 6:30 pm | #

The reason Snow uses such language is he in company of people that think nothing of using that and far more racist language.
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 6:31 pm | #

Bit NOLA | 05.16.06 - 6:27 pm |

Like Bit NOLA, I'm more concerned about the ridiculousness of someone essentially saying, "There's no reason for you to be worried about a program that I can neither confirm of deny the existence of." Never mind that the President already acknowledged its existence. This does not do wonders for Snow or Bush's "credibility."
Batocchio | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 6:33 pm | #

ESPN won't use that reference for a linebacker.
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 6:33 pm | #

Mostly, I heard the term in the mid to late 60's in the American South, directed at blacks as a slur. Recently I have heard the term used as a slur against Arabs. I would think that Mr. Snow, fine Southern gentleman or not, would understand that the derogatory usage makes this analogy a poor choice.

Gregory,

I do have to admit my own ignorance on this one (A curable disease in this case. Because now I know)

As a northeastern city brat, my exposure to southern racism is limited to second hand accounts.

So, you're absolutely right. Crappy choice of words.

Racism is a huge problem, and not just in our country. It needs to be dealt with and should not be tolerated.

To quote Tom Lehrer, "I know there are people in the world who do not love their fellow human beings, and I HATE PEOPLE LIKE THAT!"

Still, how does quibbling over a bad turn of phrase solve anything, especially when said in this context? I still have to allow for benefit of the doubt.

In the grand scheme of things, there are more important issues at stake right now.
Mostly Harmless | 05.16.06 - 6:35 pm | #

They should hire Stephen Colbert.
Magma Report | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 6:35 pm | #

That was a deliberated attack on African-Americans. He’s saying he isn’t a n-word lover... not going against the white populace.

I would like to see him wiggled out of this.

This reminds me of the white woman saying she doesn't want the gorilla children from Katrina in her school.

Bush chose the right Press Secy.
tHeGaMeOfLiFe | 05.16.06 - 6:35 pm | #

"I'm beginning to wonder if this tar baby wasn't really a red herring."

A red herring? That stinks.

Seriously from what we he trying to distract us?
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 6:35 pm | #

There's a few antisemites here. Of course they're too pussy to admit it.
Cato the Yankee | 05.16.06 - 6:18 pm | #

Plenty of the, I can attest to that.

*****************

biff,
The second that Rove is actually indicted then we will be talking about nothing else.

Just killing time, waiting for the main event to start.
Gregory | 05.16.06 - 6:19 pm | #

Rove's pending(?) indictment concerns me. If he only gets indicted on the same thing Libby did, lying to the grand jury, then the right wing will brush it off to their audience. It would be so much better if we could get either of them, any of them on the actual case,

INTENTIONAL OUTING OF A CIA AGENT IN RETALIATION OF WILSON'S FINDINGS ON YELLOW CAKE.

...or even if we can add to the case, how the info on Plame got to the white house in the first place.. who outed her on that end? it would be very useful to know, from a political point of view..
BJ | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 6:35 pm | #

Oh...c'mon! It's an allusion! It's also a Disney cartoon and part of a theme park ride. I think Tony Snow's a big a douche as the next person, but this is just overly sensitive idiocy. Let him screw up in his own time. If history has taught us anything, it is that members of the Bush administration eventually will. There's no need to dig for dirt with which to smear him.
Frank | 05.16.06 - 6:39 pm | #

Yes, he used the term in its original meaning, from the Brer Rabbit story. There was no racial element to it, and you'd have to bend his comment into a bowtie to find one.

Don't leap all over someone -- even some nimrod from the Bush "Nimrods'R'Us!" Administration. It's a cheap shot, and dilutes the CrooksAndLiars reputation and impact.

Even though it's easy, even though it's a gimme -- when someone uses a phrase like this, or the word "niggardly" -- if they use it correctly, let it stand! Don't argue against correct word-usage, just for small points.

- Tom
TKel | 05.16.06 - 6:39 pm | #

It's a literary reference to The Uncle Remus Tales. Any one making a big deal about this is just looking for a reason to pick on Tony Snow. BELIEVE ME, there will be MUCH worse things coming out of Tony Snow's mouth in the near future than this. Personally, I don't think Snow is cut out for this job, and this little flub is just a small example of things to come. Remember: the WH press corps will fall all over themselves to try to be Tony's favorite so that they'll get called on more, and that will go on for several weeks, regardless of what the WH does. -
10sfg | 05.16.06 - 6:39 pm | #

Liberal hypocrites.
Jackboot | 05.16.06 - 6:40 pm | #

O/T but yet the same T.

Defense: Gov't Manufactured Enron Case
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ 20060...HNlYwMlJVRPUCUl
sphinx | 05.16.06 - 6:41 pm | #

In the grand scheme of things, there are more important issues at stake right now.
Mostly Harmless | 05.16.06 - 6:35 pm | #

You, and others, have noted that there are more pressing problems in the world, but this is the topic of this thread. I will be happy to start slagging off Rove just as soon as he is perp walked, but this is all we have at the moment.

For those who think this is just some harmless relic from the past I would suggest that you find a black person that you do not personally know and greet them with this term. I suspect that you will not find them amused in the slightest.

Anyway, c'mon Fitz.....
Gregory | 05.16.06 - 6:41 pm | #

If they're not collecting the name, address, description, personal information, etc. then why bother? What can they do with only a number?

Seems to me this is simply meant as a chilling effect, not to serve any real intelligence purpose.
James (aka Br. SMG of Truth) | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 6:42 pm | #

He was using the term correctly and competently. Just as if he'd used the term "niggardly," there is nothing wrong with it. There are plenty of other things to get outraged about when in comes to Bush and his servants of evil, but when ignorant word patrol starts up, it drives me nutty. Snow used the word properly without any racist connotations--end of story--not a problem in my book.
D | 05.16.06 - 6:43 pm | #

Whether Snow intended it or not, some people are getting distracted from the more serious issue here- the confirmation or denial of the surveillance program. As another poster pointed out, use of the phrase "can't confirm or deny" is the far creepier rhetorical device.
Robuzo | 05.16.06 - 6:43 pm | #

O/T but yet the same T.

Defense: Gov't Manufactured Enron Case
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ 2
sphinx | 05.16.06 - 6:41 pm | #

Lest anyone forget be advised; the Enron malfeasance took place during the Clinton administration.
Jackboot | 05.16.06 - 6:44 pm | #

For those who think this is just some harmless relic from the past I would suggest that you find a black person that you do not personally know and greet them with this term. I suspect that you will not find them amused in the slightest.

Context is everything, genius.
Now, I'm going out to smoke a fag.

In Britain.
Bobby Jones | 05.16.06 - 6:44 pm | #

This is from random house addressing a question asked them in 1999.

I have come across the term "tar baby" recently. For example, a recent newspaper editorial mentioned the Clinton impeachment as a "tar baby" they'd have to get rid of before the 2000 elections. Another article, on a drug-policy Web site, mentioned the "medical marijuana tar baby" as an issue that the FDA had to deal with. What does the expression mean, and where does it come from?
The tar baby is a form of a character widespread in African folklore. In various folktales, gum, wax, or other sticky material is used to trap a person.

The folktale achieved currency in the United States in written form in one of Joel Chandler Harris's Uncle Remus stories, a collection of stories based on African-American folklore, narrated by the fictional Uncle Remus, a former slave. In the story "Tar-Baby," the character Brer Fox makes a doll out of tar, which he places by the road to entrap his enemy Brer Rabbit. Brer Rabbit talks to the doll, and when it doesn't answer, he hits it, and gets stuck in the tar. The more he struggles with it, the more he is entangled in it.

This story has led to the figurative use of tar baby in the sense 'an inextricable problem or situation', sometimes with the nuance 'something used to entrap a person'. Both the examples cited in the question show the use of this sense, which appears to be first used in the early twentieth century.

The expression tar baby is also used occasionally as a derogatory term for black people (in the U.S. it refers to African-Americans; in New Zealand it refers to Maoris), or among blacks as a term for a particularly dark-skinned person. As a result, some people suggest avoiding the use of the term in any context.

Now understand I am NOT a Bush supporter, in fact I would have a month long celebration if someone in the 3 letter agencies IE:CIA, FBI etc...had the BALLS to investigate him and he ended up facing the charges of treason he is undoubtedly guilty of!

But trying to change the meaning of words because a few racist assholes used it in a derogatory way is just wrong. Or should all crackers be forced to change their name? Ol Snow job is obviously becoming a WH mouth piece already, but I do not believe that was meant in any way to be a racial slur...and America is already becoming dumb enough without encouraging more ignorance. Besides people, with all the truly ominous, immoral and illegal activities this administration has committed do we really want to give them ammo tto use in saying it's just more liberals assaulting the conservative morals???
PO'd Vet | 05.16.06 - 6:45 pm | #

Here we go again.

I grew up in the South, and loved Joel Chandler Harris' stories as a child.

"The stories, which began appearing in the Atlanta Constitution in 1879, were popular among both Black and White readers in the North and South, not least because they presented an idealized view of race relations soon after the Civil War," according to Wikipedia.

Yeah, yeah, I know. Wikipedia.

And no, I wasn't alive just after the Civil War, but the stories were still popular in the South until I was a kid in the 60's.

It was different then. The stories were not politically incorrect back then. Today, I would not read them to my child because to some they DO represent racial intolerance. It's kind of like the Dixie Flag debate we had the other day.

Like it or not, "tar baby" comes from those stories and means something that you're stuck with that you really wish you weren't. But I'm pretty sure Snow didn't mean it to be a racial slur.
pol | 05.16.06 - 6:45 pm | #

Bobby Jones,
Since you are well versed in English, genius, you will understand what I mean when I refer to you as a prat.
Gregory | 05.16.06 - 6:46 pm | #

Two possibilities:

1) Unintentional usage of "tar baby" and "segregate" - indicates Snow is not skilled enough for this job, very insensitive and possibly has racist tendencies.

2) Intentional usage - too scary to contemplate.

Considering this is the primary mouthpiece for the WH, this is not too minor a point for discussion.
.
Bushrabie | 05.16.06 - 6:49 pm | #

Here's a fun activity for all of you who defend the usage of the phrase "tar baby" ---

Assuming you know ten African-Americans well enough to ask them, go get their thoughts on the history and usage of these words. While you're at it, you might as well ask them to cover other terms for you so you won't look foolish in the future.

The fact that such a phrase rolls out of Tony's mouth so unthinkingly tells me that he must be incredibly racially insensitive and likely does not have a circle of friends who might ever call him up on it.
dr old | 05.16.06 - 6:49 pm | #

Tony Snow is a shit baby.

The gaggle loves they shit babies.

(They feed they lion)
Bit NOLA | 05.16.06 - 6:50 pm | #

Oh, I can't wait until the nitwit points to a reporter and says, "You, the black one," or "You, oriental lady."
valerief | 05.16.06 - 5:41 pm | #

A reference to that piece from The Daily Show? I think it was around the time of the election? God, that made me laugh.

I noticed the term when he used it, but I agree with others here that we have bigger fish to fry. It merits a chiding at the level of "Hey Tony, you should know better," but not much more.

Should be be offended when someone asks for crackers? What if I develop a chink in my armor? My god, earlier I cleaned my floor with Spic-and-Span! I own a coon skin cap!

See? It's just as stupid as this.
blahblah | 05.16.06 - 6:29 pm | #

Not if you say it in a honky-tonk bar.

I'm also reminded of the Woody Allen bit where he hears "Jew" when people say "I'm fine, thanks; and you?"

I'd put the use of "tar baby" below the use of "niggardly" on the spectrum of passive-aggressive-and-possibly-subconscious race-baiting. Though I hadn't noticed that he used "segregate" as well, so maybe there's something there. Maybe he doesn't realize how his private thoughts can leak out in his public speech, especially under pressure. But even so, let's not give them what they would like, which would be to make a big flap out of this.
snoozer | 05.16.06 - 6:50 pm | #

Walk into a black bar and start throwing around "niggardly" and "tar baby". Try to duck the punches while you explain the references.
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 6:51 pm | #

Assuming you know ten African-Americans well enough to ask them, go get their thoughts on the history and usage of these words.

Nice of you to ASSume that no one on 'teh Intarweb' could possibly, actually BE black.

Yes, BLACK. B-L-A-C-K.

I am so fucking sick of white liberals trying to define what does or does not offend us.
Bobby Jones | 05.16.06 - 6:52 pm | #

For those who think this is just some harmless relic from the past I would suggest that you find a black person that you do not personally know and greet them with this term. I suspect that you will not find them amused in the slightest.

See, that is a very different context. In that case, the intention behind the statement is clearly derogatory. In this case it's debatable.

Ok. Last comment from me.

My fingers sticking to the keyboard.
Heaven forbid my pillow bursts when I try to get unstuck.
Then I'd be feathered to boot.

...

I'm just full of bad puns today.
Mostly Harmless | 05.16.06 - 6:53 pm | #

Oh good grief.... what a ninny....
Tony Snow, chief foot in mouth orator and latest slimy mouthpiece for Bushco. Not on the job a month yet and he's already making Scotty start looking good by comparasion.. OK, maybe thats a stretch....

I am inclined to share those posters who are making the claim this is not that big a deal in the greater scheme of all the ball-wrecking the Bush administration has done these last (what is it, six years, now? Gee time sure flies when you're having this much fun...NOT!!!)

ON the other hand, this supposedly intelligent man is THE mouthpiece for this administration... One would think (if only out of self preservation) that he might be up on alternative definitions including negative slang connotations on analogous phrases he likes... 'Tar baby', hell I know the negative definition and not the briar rabbit connection and I'm not a big shot mouthpiece for politicians...

But, barring that bit of common sense or researching on his own part, one might presume he would have some young staffing lackey to warn his dumb ass before he makes statements which WILL rightly or wrongly be taken the wrong way by a significant percentage of this nations populations....

Hmmm, ON the other hand...
He is working for Bush... OK, never mind any of that commone sense or researching business I mentioned...
When it gets this ridiculous I tend to recall the last line from the movie 'Chinatown'.... If you will permit me to paraphrase....
'forget it folks, it's Bushco'...
Jack Damage | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 6:54 pm | #

Wow, so you folks are more focused on his choice of words than what he REALLY said? And the Democrats wonder why they don't win elections...

Come on people. The war is against BUSH and his programs, not against some phrase that certain people find disagreeable. Get your heads out of your arses and FIGHT the REAL FIGHT dammit!

You get bogged down in this PC shit too much and I assure you that the Republicans will walk all over the Democrats again in 2006 & 2008. Haven't you figured out yet that not everyone is so hung up on PC like the Democrats are?

Get with it people!
James (aka Br. SMG of Truth) | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 6:54 pm | #

Bobby Jones,
Since you are well versed in English, genius, you will understand what I mean when I refer to you as a prat.

Oy, your posts are so tedious. Much like Chinese Water Torture.
Bobby Jones | 05.16.06 - 6:54 pm | #

What a dumb fuck?
nonbeliever | 05.16.06 - 6:54 pm | #

He sure gets flustered easily. I hope they eat him alive.
donitacurioso | 05.16.06 - 6:54 pm | #

Context is everything, genius.
Now, I'm going out to smoke a fag.

In Britain.
Bobby Jones | 05.16.06 - 6:44 pm | #

Thank you. With all the pressure that's been building up over this issue, someone needed to put their finger in the dike.
snoozer | 05.16.06 - 6:55 pm | #

Sad, really, when a bit of Americana ends up being seen as 'racist'. As has been pointed out by others on this thread, it's from the Uncle Remus stories, the Black Aesop of our age. And, if I remember it correctly, B'rer Fox didn't try 'hugging' the tar baby, he hit it and got stuck.

I don't think I'm a racist, not consciously, although anyone who flat out insists they're not 'racist' is either a liar or self-deluded; there is something hardwired into us all that makes us suspicious of the Other, the Unknown, the Scary People. It doesn't help to try eradicating faked 'racism' like taking issue with the tar baby. In Britain, there were a small minority of people who objected to children in pre-school being taught the rhyme 'Bah-bah Black Sheep' because that was supposedly racist. The strongest opponents to the call to have the nursery rhyme eradicated from our kindergartens came from, thankfully, black parents who felt embarrassed. And - by the way, for some historical perspective - the rhyme was written hundreds of years ago, before the importation of sheep with white wool; in the British Isles, the traditional native sheep is... black.

Let's concentrate on real racism, the sort that actually kills people and makes lives miserable, rather than worry about the Political Correctness of old children's stories.
nonny mouse | 05.16.06 - 6:55 pm | #

he also used the word "segregate" with a hand gesture. probably some tipping of the hat to the racist demographic.
person | 05.16.06 - 6:55 pm | #

"Tony Snow is a shit baby.

Bit NOLA"

LMAO!
Pete | 05.16.06 - 6:57 pm | #

"You know, Tony's a good liar,
but, you know,
he ain't no Condoleeeeeezzza."

- Earthquake
Bobby Jones | 05.16.06 - 6:58 pm | #

Well put nonny mouse!

I also agree with donitacurioso... Tony Show will have white hair in a year, tops. He also screwed up and had to correct himself when he said "alleged program".
James (aka Br. SMG of Truth) | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 6:58 pm | #

and maybe this also that other great rove tactic: make a spectacle to deflect attention from his poor preformance. a spectacle which can be easily denied and used to scream "liberal moonbats".
person | 05.16.06 - 6:58 pm | #

Um, the story of the tar baby is being lived out right here in the comments.

By the way, doesn't Brer Rabbit get away in the end? Seem to recall a briar patch....
Tony Snow was there....
And you were there....
And you....
Bit NOLA | 05.16.06 - 6:58 pm | #

haha, you tell 'em bobby jones...stupid white liberals.
Lane | 05.16.06 - 6:59 pm | #

Wow, so you folks are more focused on his choice of words than what he REALLY said? And the Democrats wonder why they don't win elections...
James (aka Br. SMG of Truth) | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 6:54 pm

It's who they are James. They are the ones who make up the majority of today's hijacked Democrat party. They are ugly, snide and trivial little bugs. As long as they control the Democrat party, Democrats will lose.
Jackboot | 05.16.06 - 7:01 pm | #

nice emphasis on "neither confirm.. NOOOR deny!" wtf was that supposed to convey?
person | 05.16.06 - 7:01 pm | #

You have to understand that at Fox it's just part of the culture. Like, "she's had hair like that since she was an itty-bitty Tar Baby", or "Al Sharpton gotta mouth like a big ol' Tar Baby."

The GOP like Fox, isn't concerned about the 8% of pro GOP they get from the 15% of the population that is black.
Screw Bush | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 7:02 pm | #

james: What is there to discuss? Snow didn't say anything, except his own pundit feelings on various subjects. Isn't he supposed to be talking for the president, not himself?
person | 05.16.06 - 7:03 pm | #

My fingers sticking to the keyboard.

Mostly Harmless | 05.16.06 - 6:53 pm |

I understand what you are saying, with regards to context. In my experience, when I hear "tar baby" the first thing I think of is not Uncle Remus. I have to agree with others that we are flogging a dead horse here, but what else would we do as we sit waiting for our flight.

Anyway, less porn and you might not have to worry so much about those feathers....
Gregory | 05.16.06 - 7:04 pm | #

I'm as true blue a leftie as it gets and I say, pick another reason to rough up Tony. There will be plenty of opportunities. What he said was not racist and not even coarse or impolite. Go after him on this and we only lose credibility.
Maezeppa | 05.16.06 - 7:06 pm | #

But person, you forget that Fox News is the President's news outlet. So when he talks for himself he IS talking for Bush.

Basically, all it requires is an absolute denial of all reality and a blind faith in the president... at that point anything can be justified... It's sort of like modern day fundamentalist Christianity.
James (aka Br. SMG of Truth) | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 7:06 pm | #

Hey, alright, jerkboot turned up, my favorite fake veteran. Ready to discuss the various claims that you've made, my little friend?
Gregory | 05.16.06 - 7:06 pm | #

James (aka Br. SMG of Truth) | 6:54 pm

What else need be said?
Pete | 05.16.06 - 7:07 pm | #

Ahhhh, only now is the strategy becoming clear: Drop a few choice phrases and the liberal opposition will get distracted and turn on each other.

The genius of it!
.
Bushrabie | 05.16.06 - 7:07 pm | #

We need to just be grateful he didn't refer to his tiny white penis.
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 7:08 pm | #

With all the pressure that's been building up over this issue, someone needed to put their finger in the dike.

Only if the lesbian gives you permission - otherwise it is rape.
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 7:09 pm | #

Wow, Tony is really pretty lousy under pressure. He basically admits the program exists at the end of that clip. He says something to the effect that people may be worried more because of how the program is being spun than actually run. You mean the program whose existence you can neither confirm nor deny Tony?
DrSinker | 05.16.06 - 7:10 pm | #

According to the Uncle Remus story Br'er Rabbit was tricked into punching the Tar Baby, and became inextricably stuck. Having fallen into the trap, be begged his enemy to do whatever he wanted to him, but "Please don't throw me in the briar patch."

His nemesis did exactly that, and thus he was able to go free. Then he proclaimed that he was "Born and bred in the briarpatch" and ran off.

The reason his enemy was tormenting poor Br'er Rabbit was that he was considered "uppity."

Who would torment a rabbit for being uppity? That would be the evil Br'er FOX.

Where is Tony Snowjob from? FOX news.

Coincidence? I am just asking.

Visit the Schapira Blog, http://schapira.blogspot.com, What we know so far ...

... and tell 'em Big Mitch sent ya!
BigMitch | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 7:10 pm | #

I have to agree with others that we are flogging a dead horse here..

Damn, now lets not get PETA pissed off too!
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 7:11 pm | #

Interesting programme on tellie this afternoon, caught the last half of it. See, in Britain, they still have television aimed at schools; you get programmes on engineering and physics and maths and English and all sorts of educational stuff. This one was a black rapper who uses the term 'nigger' (constantly referred to as the 'N' word) in his rap music.

So he was shown around a museum of slavery in Liverpool (I think it was) and talked to some history buffs about the origin of word and the impact it had over different times, and to a group of school kids who - strangely enough - felt it had to be a bad word used to insult people when one of them heard one white boy use it to insult another white boy.

I don't know if the rapper has decided not to use 'nigger' in his lyrics anymore, but at least here it's getting an intelligent hearing, on public television. Beats the hell out of 'Jeopardy', dunnit?
nonny mouse | 05.16.06 - 7:14 pm | #

Anyonymous,
A dike is not a lesbian but it is a homonym of a dyke which is a lesbian.
Pete | 05.16.06 - 7:14 pm | #

Damn, now lets not get PETA pissed off too!
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 7:11 pm | #

I didn't say how the horse died or whether cheval is on tonight's menu.....
Gregory | 05.16.06 - 7:15 pm | #

Jesse Holmes | 05.16.06 - 5:09 pm

Stop the bullshit. The whole Uncle Remus and the Tar Baby thing is racist. I don't care how Disney whitewashes it.

First the story is filled with overt racism, plantations, bad English, massa this massa that, and constantly making a mockery of happy, dancing slaves.

Second Brer Fox made the tar baby in the racist likeness of a Black baby. This is why the Brer Rabbit was fooled.

Don't even try to say these racist fucks from long ago were politically correct. I can see it now back in day little white kids all snug in their beds begging mommy to read the funny story. Oh, Mommy please read the n-story again. It’s terrible.

Here is some of the original text from Joel Chandler Harris and wife (1848-1908 )from Uncle Remus, and the Tar Baby

"He come mighty nigh it, honey, sho's you born--Brer Fox did. One day atter
Brer Rabbit fool 'im wid dat calamus root, Brer Fox went ter wuk en got 'im
some tar, en mix it wid some turkentime, en fix up a contrapshun w'at he
call a Tar-Baby, en he tuck dish yer Tar-Baby en he sot 'er in de big road,
en den he lay off in de bushes fer to see what de news wuz gwine ter be. En
he didn't hatter wait long, nudder, kaze bimeby here come Brer Rabbit pacin'
down de road--lippity-clippity, clippity -lippity--dez ez sassy ez a
jay-bird. Brer Fox, he lay low. Brer Rabbit come prancin' 'long twel he spy
de Tar-Baby, en den he fotch up on his behime legs like he wuz 'stonished.
De Tar Baby, she sot dar, she did, en Brer Fox, he lay low.

"`Mawnin'!' sez Brer Rabbit, sezee - `nice wedder dis mawnin',' sezee.

"Tar-Baby ain't sayin' nuthin', en Brer Fox he lay low.

"`How duz yo' sym'tums seem ter segashuate?' sez Brer Rabbit, sezee.

"Brer Fox, he wink his eye slow, en lay low, en de Tar-Baby, she ain't
sayin' nuthin'.

"'How you come on, den? Is you deaf?' sez Brer Rabbit, sezee. 'Kaze if you
is, I kin holler louder,' sezee.

Get the fuck out of here with I don't see why this is racist bullshit.
tHeGaMeOfLiFe | 05.16.06 - 7:16 pm | #

DrSinker | 05.16.06 - 7:10 pm |

DING DING DING!!!!

We have a winner!
Pete | 05.16.06 - 7:16 pm | #

Didn't Glenn Greenwald cast some serious doubt on that WaPo/ABC poll showing 63% of Americans were 'okay' with the NSA domestic phone spying program?

I think he said the guy who did the poll aggressively polled about impeaching Clinton but has refused to do one on Bush.

I.E. that the guy was partisan and the poll was suspect.
Gust | 05.16.06 - 7:16 pm | #

Let's assume the horse died of natural causes and there was no foul play. Oops, I just confused the horse with the donkey!
Bushrabie | 05.16.06 - 7:17 pm | #

Please, for pete's sake, leave the homos out of this. Haven't we offended enough people already?
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 7:17 pm | #

This topic is utterly pointless to discuss or even criticize. Can't all you liberals find something better to do with your time, like actually contributing to the governtmental process instead of criticizing everything about it.
Lane | 05.16.06 - 7:18 pm | #

Now looky here, nonny mouse.
We do not use words like THAT around here.

'Programme' and 'tellie,' indeed.

Scandalous!
Bobby Jones | 05.16.06 - 7:18 pm | #

To preface this post, I'm a liberal democrat, and I understand the meaning that could be derived from this statement.

But to be fair, the way that Snow was using the term was a reference to a sticky situation -- something that is difficult to get out of. In Joel Chandler Harris' "Uncle Remus" (see http://xroads.virginia.edu/~UG97...s/tarbaby.html) , the "tar baby" is a doll covered with tar. Brer Rabbit comes by and speaks to it, but the tar baby doesn't answer. Brer Rabbit gets angry and hits the tar baby, and sticks to it. The more Brer Rabbit struggles to get free, the tighter he sticks to the tar baby.

So, that's all. But, I think Snow should be aware of all connotations of a phrase, and avoid using ones that are controversial.
Vaughn D. Taylor | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 7:18 pm | #

As an African American and a Democrat, allow me to disagree with several posters here and state my opinion: Snow's words are entirely worthy of attention and criticism.

While it may not be on par with the many dozens of other Republican scandals at hand, this incident should not be overlooked and dismissed.
J | 05.16.06 - 7:19 pm | #

Um, the story of the tar baby is being lived out right here in the comments.

I know! Isn't it deliciously ironic? In the story Brer Fox outwits the usually wittier Brer Rabbit by using a tar baby to lure him into being captured by the fox. The key part of the story is that Brer Rabbit cannot understand that the tar baby is made of tar and is not a real baby. He gets upset because he falsely perceives that the tar baby is dissing him by not talking back when spoken to, so he gets emotional and angry -- EXACTLY like the folks here who cannot distinguish between a literary reference and a racial slur! They are getting drawn into proving themselves to be "more sensitive" to alleged racial slurs when there's really nothing there.

http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 7:22 pm | #

Come on, so of you guys would scream "unfair" if Snow would have said, "I ain't gonna toss you out no watermellon on that one, "masta.'"
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 7:23 pm | #

Next you guys are gonna be saying that it is wrong to burn crosses too.
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 7:24 pm | #

Bobby Jones - divvint be like that, hinny, doos mee heed in, as they say round these here parts. Transplanted Yank I may be, but funnily enough, I had to look at it twice when you said you were popping out to smoke a fag, didn't get the gay side at all! I've been here too long.

I think the phrase 'tempest in a Royal Daulton teapot' springs to mind. As a white liberal, I do understand the anxiety caused by trying too hard not to offend anyone - inevitably leading to offending everyone. I just try to depend on my common sense and hope I get it mostly right most of the time; best anyone can hope for, really.
nonny mouse | 05.16.06 - 7:25 pm | #

Yes, it's harmless. Now where's my DVD copy Song of the south. Oh wait it's not available anymore because it's FUCKING racist, neo-cons!
klaus | 05.16.06 - 7:26 pm | #

I'm guessing the origination of Tar Baby is from the Uncle Remus stories, which, in 2006, could be interpreted as derrogatory and racist.

I suggest you stay off of the "Splash Mountain" ride at Disneyworld then. You might get offended. It's curious that none of the hundreds of thousands of people who ride that ride every year have a problem with it.
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 7:26 pm | #

And I suppose last night when the POTUS said he was going to launch a "South of the Border Taco Patrol" that it was some type of "racist" statement too.

Geeeezzzzzz, that's a classic American advertising slogan. Aren't you morons literate in the classics?
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 7:27 pm | #

Now where's my DVD copy Song of the south. Oh wait it's not available anymore because it's FUCKING racist, neo-cons!

Just what's "FUCKING racist" about Song of the South?
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 7:27 pm | #

It's only racist when a Republican says it...DUH!
Lane | 05.16.06 - 7:27 pm | #

neo-cons. Even if it's not racist it's a stupid obscure out-moded phrase to use once let alone twice. Who the hell drops an eighty year old racist term like that into their speech and thinks they're actually communicating?

The last I heard somebody use the term Tar Baby, I smashed my victrola.

It confirms again that conservatism is just a holding place where all the loutish clods incapable of bringing their minds out of the 19th century can gang together and pretend that the unloutish are bullies.

How many of you "unoffended" defenders are black?
klaus | 05.16.06 - 7:30 pm | #

That's white privilege is about: not having to worry or be bothered by saying whatever the fcuk you want whenever the h*ell you want. No matter the history of the term or the slur.

Indeed such privilege enables you (i.e., the whiteman) to pontificate on when a slur is a racial one or not; is racist or not; or is whatever the hell you want it to be (or not).

Impeach Bush!
ProfMKD | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 7:31 pm | #

Come on, so of you guys would scream "unfair" if Snow would have said, "I ain't gonna toss you out no watermellon on that one, "masta.'"

Typical. Of course, he didn't say that did he? What he said was not offensive, so you make up a quote and then say we should be offended by it. It seems that most of what we are supposed to be concerned/angered/offended over by the Bush Administration is just fabricated by the angry left. Is there not enough offensive reality that you can quote instead of making up stuff? Life must be good indeed that you have to make stuff up to get offended over.
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 7:31 pm | #

sad how anybody would WANT to justify this. apologize and move on, otherwise you're just saying it was meant to antagonize.
person | 05.16.06 - 7:32 pm | #

Lillywhite has it correct. Snow was making a literary reference to a famous tale about Brer Fox outwitting Brer Rabbit with a figure made of sticky tar. The rash and smug Rabbit could not help but take offense at the silent Tar Baby and, demanding a proper "hello", proceeded to slap it with each of his paws until he was stuck and easy prey for the Fox.

I've often thought of our foolish involvement in Iraq as a hubristic slap at a Tar Baby--a trap.

Please make note of your rush to judgement so that you do not undercut your credibility on other issues.
California | 05.16.06 - 7:33 pm | #

You have a new job as the PR flack for the white house. You botch your first effort and on your 2nd you use obtuse language that only a cracker would be comfortable with. In the Bush White House where incompetence is served three times daily... well done dickhead.
klaus | 05.16.06 - 7:35 pm | #

Look at the poll that appeared the following day [...] something like 65% of the public was not troubled by it.

Snow apparently reversing course on the polls don't matter when it comes to governoring or decidering.
Turk Meister | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 7:36 pm | #

ProfMKD,
So why can't black people or hispanics or anyone else have the privilege of saying what they want as well?
Lane | 05.16.06 - 7:36 pm | #

klaus, way to prove your point by calling white people crackers...you now have no clout in any argument you try to make you racist.
Lane | 05.16.06 - 7:39 pm | #

I suppose you morons would be screaming "racism" if he'd a called a reporter a "stupid fuckin' WOP too!"

Get over it and get with the administration's program. You are either for us or against us...
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 7:39 pm | #

An inanimate doll covered with tar is indistinguishable from a black person... that's comedy gold. link.
klaus | 05.16.06 - 7:40 pm | #

Only could read the first few...if the others are in the same vein, it says a lot about the ignorance in this country. Buy a dictionary for christ's sake.
mikee | 05.16.06 - 7:41 pm | #

All my life, over 50 years, I have ONLY heard that term used when referring to African American children, by racists. My whole life! And yes, I'm familiar with the Remus books.

To hear this coming from the WH spokesperson is disturbing, at least to me.
Anonymous # 34,598 | 05.16.06 - 7:41 pm | #

There are many more transgressions from this administration that are FAR more serious. That term is from a famous story, and was used in that context. Don't make the mistake of compromising credibility over something like this. Ther are far more serious things to bitch about from these jackasses.
John | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 7:43 pm | #

exactly. my racist relatives use it. the ONOLY place I've heard it.
klaus | 05.16.06 - 7:43 pm | #

Next you will be saying that there is something wrong with honoring indians with a baseball team with a stupic fuckin' grin on the hat too or a football team dedicated to the proud heritage of "redskins."

Of course, I am still waiting for a pro sports team to call itself the "Fightin' Jews" or the "Darkies"
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 7:43 pm | #

Ther are far more serious things to bitch about from these jackasses.

But we're just waiting for rove's indictment to come down.
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 7:44 pm | #

is there a website that posts daily press briefing video? that would be a great service...

thanks
anon | 05.16.06 - 7:45 pm | #

But we're just waiting for rove's indictment to come down.
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 7:44 pm | #

Jackboot | 05.16.06 - 7:45 pm | #

AAAAAAAAARGH! This is so dumb. I notice that Think Progress and C&L both link to the same, single source to make the point that "tarbaby" is supposed to be offensive, an online word-of-the-day Q&A posting from 1999 that claims that the term has "occasionally" been used as a derogotory term for black people. With this country's history, try to find me a word that *hasn't* been used as a derogatory word for black people. But since "SOME PEOPLE say the word should be avoided" (I wonder if those are the same "some people" Preznit Bush and Fox News anchors are always referring to?) that's all the excuse we need to pile onto Tony Snow.

Tony Snow, by virtue of his person and his position, will give us plenty of good reasons, instead of this stupid one, to pile on. Now quit with the race hysteria.
cerebrocrat | 05.16.06 - 7:46 pm | #

1.8% of this websites posts come from republicans. Sadly, almost 50% of the posts in this thread think that to complain about this is ridiculous. Move on and find something else to whine about.
Lane | 05.16.06 - 7:48 pm | #

Stories from Google News referencing the term "tar baby":

1. LDS Upset With Media's Reporting Of Mormonism

... Mormon fundamentalism is a "tar baby" that the LDS Church is stuck with and will ultimately have to deal with. ...

2. Blair has no joker left in reshuffled pack

... Iraq continues to be the tar baby for both Bush and Blair, and very likely their successors. ...

3. Keep an eye on case

... Federal prosecutors may be mimicking Brer Rabbit stuck to Tar Baby. ...

4. The American Dream is Weaponized

... Almost buried in the confusion is a poisoned tar-baby ...

5. The Letter

... Regulations are like Uncle Remus' tar baby. ...

6. Steel wills behind softwood deal

... "What president is going to want to put his or her political capital on the line for something that is such a tar baby?". ...

7. Fatal balance: An Ice Age falls on the newsroom

... But he clams up like the Tar Baby and clutches his cards to his vest. ...

8. Chuck Schumer: Cry the beloved country

... So tightly bound to its fortunes, Mr. Schumer explains, they can be likened to a connection rivaling that of the tar baby. ...

And that's just a small sampling of recent references to "tar baby" in new stories from all over the world. None of them racist. How is it that all of these reporters managed to use this literary reference in all of those stories and no one flooded the editorial offices with letters of indignation? For someone to think this is a racist allusion rather than simply a literary reference shows them to be more of an uneducated knee-jerk Chicken Little than anything else.
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 7:51 pm | #

All my life, over 50 years, I have ONLY heard that term used when referring to African American children, by racists. My whole life! And yes, I'm familiar with the Remus books.

Please show me where it is used in that context anywhere.
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 7:52 pm | #

I suppose you morons would be screaming "racism" if he'd a called a reporter a "stupid fuckin' WOP too!"

But he didn't say that! Again, I can only guess that there is so little wrong with the Bush Administration that you are forced to make things up to get offended over because they are so perfect otherwise!
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 7:56 pm | #

I don't hate negroes. I even have a negro friend.
SnowJob | 05.16.06 - 7:58 pm | #

Hey, Bobby Jones, you were right. It's just words, sticks and stones and all that.

When Lane and Lilly White invite you over you can have a big laugh about it. Oops, my bad, I think it unlikely that either would invite you to their house.

We know we will have hit rock bottom on this thread when the freeper trolls start with the "Heritage, not Hate" bs from the David Duke crowd.
Gregory | 05.16.06 - 8:00 pm | #

'How you come on, den? Is you deaf?' sez Brer Rabbit, sezee. 'Kaze if you
is, I kin holler louder,' sezee.

Get the fuck out of here with I don't see why this is racist bullshit.
tHeGaMeOfLiFe | 05.16.06 - 7:16 pm | #

-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------

Then I guess Alice Walker is one of the most racist pieces of shit ever to walk the earth.

You know Alice Walker, the author of The Color Purple?

It's funny because she actually had difficulty getting the book published in the first place because morons like you thought the way she presented the verbal dialogue and thought process of poor, black folks in the south was indicative of her own (and by extension their) stupidity and lack of education as a writer.
Derek | 05.16.06 - 8:01 pm | #

"The origination of Tar Baby is from the Uncle Remus stories, which, in 2006, could be interpreted as derrogatory and racist."

By someone dying to find something to interpret as derogatory and racist. There is nothing whatsoever offensive in the Joel Chandler Harris stories. Documentation is not derogation, and documentation is what Harris saw himself doing with respect to the slave folk stories and the dialect they were told in.
cerebrocrat | 05.16.06 - 8:01 pm | #

Wow I haven’t heard that term in a long time. When your last name is Snow and you work in the Bush White House, you need to pay particular attention to anything that can be considered well….

When he mentioned The Tar Baby, am I the only person who immediately thought of the ginger bread man from Shrek?
Aaaahh wizzers on you guys!
Richard | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 8:02 pm | #

drop him off in the middle of east st louis, mo for a little sensitivity training
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 8:03 pm | #

I notice that Think Progress and C&L both link to the same, single source to make the point that "tarbaby" is supposed to be offensive, an online word-of-the-day Q&A posting from 1999 that claims that the term has "occasionally" been used as a derogotory term for black people. With this country's history, try to find me a word that *hasn't* been used as a derogatory word for black people.

Yep. The left's propensity to claim alleged racism in words where none exists have meant that every word used to describe African-Americans has been twisted into something supposedly "racist." First it was "negro", then "colored", then "black". Now those are all "racist" description. I'm waiting to see how long it is until "African-American" is claimed to be racist.

Oh wait. I didn't have to wait very long: quote "I have nothing against black people, but I refuse to use the term African American because I believe that it is racist towards black people."
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 8:03 pm | #

Now if a democrat had said "Tar Baby" they would have been crucified him/her. Just like Hillary when she said plantation.

Don't eat yellow snow!
(_)_) | 05.16.06 - 8:04 pm | #

Why be so niggardly with your condemnation? (Hey, there's another dangerous word: "condemnation." Sounds too Christian.) The English language is to be used. Smart people use it smartly. Other, less enlightened people, make up the meaning of words or phrases to suit their ideology.
Greg | 05.16.06 - 8:05 pm | #

Actually, I think he was referring to the brer rabbit story about the tar baby.

I don't remember the specifics, but the moral was not to hug it.
Horace | 05.16.06 - 8:09 pm | #

honkey
cracker
whitey
white boy
peckerwood... there

they're just words so, no big deal
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 8:09 pm | #

Bush should have his own TV Show

"Fall Guy"
USSA | 05.16.06 - 8:10 pm | #

I weigh in on this being a counterproductive distraction.
And wrong.
The Brier Rabbit stories are from the African American slave tradition. Brier Wolf is the one with power, dumb as nail. Brier Rabbit is without much muscle, but able to out-clever Wolf at every turn. He uses the tar baby to his advantage. It's an effective, historically rich, practical and unique metaphore: The problem which becomes all the more intractable the more you engage with it.
Like trying to stir racist hysteria against a man who's already an obvious baboon as it is.
Tom | 05.16.06 - 8:10 pm | #

Maybe I'm just a big southern apologist since I was born and raised in the Georgia & South Carolina with an amazingly racist extended family. And yes, there a hundreds of other items that show the White House undermining the U.S. Constitution - but I would think that many people would find Tar Baby an offensive word.
kathotdog | 05.16.06 - 8:11 pm | #

Lane | 05.16.06 - 7:36 pm

You do and you try your best to hide behind "it's folk lore," "we're just kidding," 'oh, did I offend you," you're too sensitive" or "what's the big deal" comments.

Expect to be read when people are in the 21st century hating the covert racism while you are wishing for the good old days between the 16th and 19th century when the only ones who had feelings were white people.

Lame, Who are you to tell people when and when not to feel offended?

Racism is the foundation of the US.

You have African-Americans telling you that its offensive and still some of you spew out what they should feel.

UN-FUCKING-BELIEVABLE!!!!!
tHeGaMeOfLiFe | 05.16.06 - 8:12 pm | #

Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 8:09 pm

Shit, get a fucking life. When have you heard a higher up in the oval office use these terms?

Stupid is too good a word to use for your 2nd grade nonsense.
tHeGaMeOfLiFe | 05.16.06 - 8:14 pm | #

Tony Snow must be 130 years older than he looks. Was he readin' Uncle Remus and drinkin' Dr. Fosters Cure-All Medicine Juice when he was just a young boy? Ohh, Dem was duh dayze.

Anyway here's the story:

http://uncleremus.com/tarbaby.html

and here's another story with some obvious racial overtones:

http://uncleremus.com/negro.html

I'm sure this kind of material was knee slappin' funny back in 1878 but it proves how isolated Tony must have been for all of his life.

Anyway I'm sure at least *some* of his friends are black and he uses phrases like this around them *all* the time and they are *never* offended!!

He's a boy in a bubble! Can't wait to see what he says next!
Kevo | 05.16.06 - 8:15 pm | #

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Lis...of_ethnic_slurs
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 8:17 pm | #

Intent is not the only issue in these situations. It's judgement. And avoiding the use of words that conjure subjects and imagery that distract from the message is part of his job as a communicator.

Having said that, poor choice of words can be revealing of actual insensitivity and prejudice.

"If I sit silently, I have sinned" - Mohammad Mossadegh
THE MOSSADEGH PROJECT

truth | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 8:18 pm | #

tar baby:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/d...p? term=tar+baby
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 8:19 pm | #

What an idiot! I am stunned! Hmm, so who will *Bush choose as his next mouthpiece?

Tar baby?

OMFG!
Seldona | 05.16.06 - 8:20 pm | #

thank you "tHeGaMeOfLiFe"

this sums it up exactly...
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 8:22 pm | #

I'm no apoligist to the GOP, but as long as i've known, the tar baby was the trap that got br'er rabbit after he hugged it in that ol' story from the south. Maybe in the original story it was a racial comparisson.

Snow Job needs a little time to learn how to say nothing like McClellan, lets just be happy Scotty is gone for the time being.
Gert | 05.16.06 - 8:24 pm | #

honkey
cracker
whitey
white boy
peckerwood... there

they're just words so, no big deal
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 8:24 pm | #

i'm sure

nigga
black'y
jigaboo
mammy
ace of spade
and others all have a dictonary meaning too

...but you only hear people use them when they want to be racially condescending...

...this was not a slip of the tounge... reference or no reference

tony snow is a pompass, elitist, ass hole...

..has been for some time now...
truthseeker | 05.16.06 - 8:30 pm | #

even the press people n the room cackled when he said that...

this boy is in over his head & a ticking time bomb...

oh yea, like a lot of closet racist (elitist)...
truthseeker | 05.16.06 - 8:34 pm | #

"...but you only hear people use them when they want to be racially condescending..."

You're right. Tony was talking about the possible existence of an NSA spying program then, mid-sentence, remarked that he'd rather not hug a black infant.....
Derek | 05.16.06 - 8:38 pm | #

I suppose you morons would be screaming "racism" if he'd a called a reporter a "stupid fuckin' WOP too!"

But he didn't say that! Again, I can only guess that there is so little wrong with the Bush Administration that you are forced to make things up to get offended over because they are so perfect otherwise!

Lilly, did you read the entire sentence? It starts with the word "If," indicating that the writer is positing a hypothetical situation. The writer was quite definitely not claiming that these words were actually used by anyone.

In fact, the only person here making up something to be offended by is you.
Sneaker | 05.16.06 - 8:42 pm | #

Actually, as some comments have already pointed out, a tar baby is also used by Africans as a surrogate for the "trick that tricks the trickster"--a trap.

Not necessarily a slur, but I am sure PC enforcers (I wonder how well-read they are sometimes) don't like it and it probably shouldn't come out of Snow's mouth.
xin | 05.16.06 - 8:46 pm | #

By saying it Snow hugged it.
CD | 05.16.06 - 8:51 pm | #

Tar Baby is one of Sade's best songs.. on the Promise album.. along with Punch Drunk & Maureen. Probably her best album imho
Jethro Stone | 05.16.06 - 8:54 pm | #

Brier Wolf is the one with power, dumb as nail. Brier Rabbit is without much muscle, but able to out-clever Wolf at every turn. He uses the tar baby to his advantage.

Read the story again. Harris's stories are far more sophisticated than you give them credit for. The power of this one is that the fox uses the tar baby to trap the supposedly more clever rabbit. He can't catch him in a fair race, so he tricks him and catches him by playing off his own sense of self-righteousness ("How dare this baby not reply back anything when I'm talking!").

Quote: "The story opens with Brer Fox creating the Tar-Baby as an attempt to capture Brer Rabbit once and for all. This story is perhaps the first story in which the reader sees a dual side of Brer Rabbit. Instead of the victimized underdog, we learn of the many 'affronts' that Brer Rabbit has committed within the animal community. We also learn of his prideful nature when he insists that the Tar-Baby is remiss in ignoring 'respectubble folks' like himself."
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 8:57 pm | #

tHeGaMeOfLiFe | 05.16.06 - 8:12 pm

Be offended all you want. There will be no apology for the comment he made. There is nothing wrong with referencing to a metaphor to explain your situation.

"The Brier Rabbit stories are from the African American slave tradition. Brier Wolf is the one with power, dumb as nail. Brier Rabbit is without much muscle, but able to out-clever Wolf at every turn. He uses the tar baby to his advantage. It's an effective, historically rich, practical and unique metaphore: The problem which becomes all the more intractable the more you engage with it."

Be offended all you want but just because you're offended by someone citing text to explain their position does NOT make what they said wrong. In no way was Snow making a racial slur...read his quote, it wouldn't even make sense in the context of what he said to make a jab at a different race.
Lane | 05.16.06 - 8:57 pm | #

For anyone interested in Mr. Snow's past comments on various topics, here are a few gems:

"But the history of science teaches that today's cocksure theory is tomorrow's crackpot superstition."

"Sure, science involves trial and error. Scientists refine theories each day. But as they do, they help us grasp more clearly the wonders of the world and the universe." (Note, see above comment for contradiction.)

"Investigators have discovered that dogs can laugh, which can't be too big of a surprise."

"Over the last two years, terror has become the background radiation of our lives."

"The art of being sick is not the same as the art of getting well."

"The Kyoto treaty is a fraud and a catastrophically bad deal for the United States."

There are more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quote.../ tony_snow.html

The URL is hilarious when you read the context of his comments.
citrus | 05.16.06 - 9:00 pm | #

To be fair, IMHO, he used the phrase correctly, though there are much better ways of saying "I'm not going to let you trap me"

From Wikipedia:
The tar baby was a trap -- a human figure made of tar -- used to capture Br'er Rabbit in a story which is part of American plantation folklore. Br'er Fox played on Br'er Rabbit's vanity and gullibility to goad him into attacking the fake and becoming stuck.

He truly was an idiot to use this phrase, the Bush Admin. is already known for not caring about anyone other than NeoConz, and this will just fuel the racism fires.
"What a Bonehead"
Stevis | 05.16.06 - 9:05 pm | #

Um Guys, why do you think Disney has never released Song of the South on tape or DVD? The whole bluebird on my shoulder thingy remember? Tar baby, briar patch, too offensive. In fact go to Disneyland, ride Splash Mountain, the whole tale of the Briar rabbit is told minus the tarbaby he was caught in. Which by the way kinds destroys the whole story. So when they opened the ride, people were like WTF? Why bother?
strawberry | 05.16.06 - 9:07 pm | #

Stories from Google News referencing the term "tar baby":
[...]
And that's just a small sampling of recent references to "tar baby" in new stories from all over the world. None of them racist. How is it that all of these reporters managed to use this literary reference in all of those stories and no one flooded the editorial offices with letters of indignation? For someone to think this is a racist allusion rather than simply a literary reference shows them to be more of an uneducated knee-jerk Chicken Little than anything else.
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 7:51 pm | #

In the back-and-forth on this thread, I haven't seen anybody rebut this. Anybody?

I hope Jon Stewart makes a joke about it and we can move on. Maybe it belied Swow's private bigotry or at least insensitivity, maybe not. If he'd been talking about Katrina I might have read more into it, but at the time I assumed he was just reaching for a metaphor and made a bad choice.
snoozer | 05.16.06 - 9:08 pm | #

let me offer it this way for the great mass of "explainers" amoung you...

HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN MORE SENSITIVE TO THE WORD... SEEING AS HOW HE IS NOW (ONE OF) THE VOICE PIECES OF THE ADMININSTRATION AND ALL TO THE 'MERICAN PEOPLE OF ALL RACES. NOT JUST WHITE PEOPLE.

everybody makes mistakes... he will probably make more i'm sure... but this "oversight" or "slip" or intellectual literary reference (what ever u want to call it) WAS NOT BECOMING OF MR SNOW...

that's it... simple...

no race card or exposing him as a kkk member or anything like that...

just calling it as we (I) see it...

stop defending Tony for a bonehead stupid racist remark on his first outing...

p.s. live a life (flood victim, disabled, ethnic minority, poor, etc.) as someone else for a day and go thru the subsequent trama they have... and then go expose yourself to things like...

words, yes words...

that are used referencing those times...

come back to this blog and then tell us if you were offended by their use or not...
truthseeker | 05.16.06 - 9:09 pm | #

PO'd Vet- amen
petomai | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 9:12 pm | #

he screwed up and rightfully deserves the ire of those who were once beaten shortly after hearing that phrase uttered...

insensitivity has no place on the world stage...

haven't we had enough ignorance (def. to be void of knowing something) in the white house...
truthseeker | 05.16.06 - 9:15 pm | #

We lost all our gigs back in 1982 when we changed our band name to "Guitar Babies." It was Berkeley...
Steven Strauss | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 9:17 pm | #

If Snow truly meant to offend with his comment, which I don't think he did, then he should apologize. But, I really think that we should concentrate our efforts on bigger things. Let's not get bogged down in what the new press secretary has to say -- it makes us sound like whiners. We have mid-term elections to deal with, and we need to toughen up our skins a bit if we want to take back Congress and the White House.
Vaughn D. Taylor | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 9:18 pm | #

Wow, glad someone spoke up about the "niggardly" reference. Geesh, "niggardly" is on my senior English list, and I try to use this example as a great teaching tool about learning language and the power of it all. I also use it as a great example of how ignorance/misinterpretation can get in the way...ie: the firing the the Wash. DC. aide for using it, and he was black! (He got reinstated btw.)

It has NOTHING to do w/ the demeaning "N" word referring to blacks.

"Tarbaby" though? Hmmmm...don't know any other reference to it than early black folklore, completely derogatory. (Guess I'll have to go do some etymological research.)

I don't think it's a good word choice for Tony to have used...but then again...should I be surprised?
I mean, the guy basically thinks there's no such thing as racism!

jmo
M Mays | 05.16.06 - 9:27 pm | #

Holy Uncle Remus and Song of the South! As a 38 year old man born, raised and living my entire life in the United States, I've actually never heard or read this particular phrase used in any other way except in a racist way, so it surely startled me, too. It's surely a damn rarity even among hardcore racists, too. Who the hell throws out this anachronistic phrase in their everyday lives? What a strange world Snows lives in.
- - - - - - - - - - - -

I don't know what world Tony Snow lives in, but I bet he's got a library card. My vocabulary is totally alien to shopkeepers because of my weird reading habits. But I have to admit, I'd never assume the job of Press Secretary knowing what strange language I tend to think in. Press Secretary has to be pitch perfect in the popular idiom, and he just went all antique store on America.
peepeeray | 05.16.06 - 9:17 pm | #
Steven Strauss | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 9:27 pm | #

stop explaining away what he said. that's what blogs are for. to speak out.

go post your war, economy, borders, immigration, leaks, corruption, disaster mismanagement comments somewhere else.

this was posted as a racial item by John and should be talked about as such.

too bad if it makes you feel uncomfortable.

imagine how uncomfortable the black reporters in the room felt when he said this.
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 9:28 pm | #

Snowjob isn't going to last .... Mark my words ~~

He is going to have a nervous break down or a stroke .
Dailykos will ban u | 05.16.06 - 9:30 pm | #

Am I the only one who heard Snow inadvertently confirm the existence of the program when he said in the last few words of the clip, "That may have to do more with the way it's being spun than the way it's actually.... go ahead."
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 9:31 pm | #

Good post, truthseeker.
RR | 05.16.06 - 9:37 pm | #

looking at some of your comments there has to be repub spies on this site.

i can't believe true liberals or progressive thinking people would defend his use of this term.

even if he was ignorant to the possible listeners intereptation tells you everything you need to know about this man.

he is insensitive.

a good poll question for his supporters (on this site and others) would be:

do you think tony would have made that "intellegent" reference showing his vast knowledge of american literature, if his audience was made up of all black reporters?
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 9:40 pm | #

Um Guys, why do you think Disney has never released Song of the South on tape or DVD?

That's not true. I have a Disney brand VHS copy of it that I bought in London a few years back. Here's a picture.
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 9:41 pm | #

As a 38 year old man born, raised and living my entire life in the United States, I've actually never heard or read this particular phrase used in any other way except in a racist way

So quote several of them if there are so many. I can't seem to find them. I think you are making it all up.
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 9:43 pm | #

this was posted as a racial item by John and should be talked about as such.

Except that it wasn't racist.

http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 9:45 pm | #

Lily White, you bought it in London, try getting one here. I used to work at a video store and they released it once very early on in the history of video movies. But when we tried to buy replacement copies they said that they wouldn't re-release it like all their other classics.
strawberry | 05.16.06 - 9:46 pm | #

And like I said go to Splash Mountain, NO TARBABY! RR you around? You've been there.
strawberry | 05.16.06 - 9:49 pm | #

"Tarbaby" though? Hmmmm...don't know any other reference to it than early black folklore, completely derogatory.

I'm assuming the "early black folklore" is the Harris stories. Please explain how the use of it in The Wonderful Tar-Baby Story is "derogatory."
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 9:51 pm | #

Snow will die from the stress or quit right after the elections this year. After that Bush will post the job on Craigslist.
Less than zero | 05.16.06 - 9:51 pm | #

I have been on Splash Mountain. No tar baby.

And Disney is supposedly reconsidering the moratorium on Song of the South, but to make it more politically correct for its release.

In fact, if I remember correctly, they subverted the old Uncle Remus stories completely. In the original story, it was Br'er Fox who trapped Br'er Rabbit, wasn't it? IIRC, in the Disney version, it was the other way around.
RR | 05.16.06 - 9:53 pm | #

I used to work at a video store and they released it once very early on in the history of video movies.

So there you are. You too, agree that it's false to claim that "it has never been released."
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 9:56 pm | #

Lilly White i'm just getting caught with the conversation from everyone...

and i'm trying to understand your position, i really am...

but i have to ask why you are so uncomfortable discussing Tony's use of this word as a recial slur?

i think a few people above gave him an out by saying that it wasn't so much overt racist as it was "covert" of hidden.

this (hidden racism/discrimination) is by the way just as dangerous as overt acts in many ways because it is much harder to identify and correct. also many victims of hidden biases will tell you that they never really do well in environments where this is allowed to florish... cause many times they are the only ones to see it... and the antagonisers often find out about it when it's too late...

anyway... the question...
truthseeker | 05.16.06 - 9:58 pm | #

excuse me "caught up" not "caught"..
truthseeker | 05.16.06 - 9:59 pm | #

In fact, if I remember correctly, they subverted the old Uncle Remus stories completely. In the original story, it was Br'er Fox who trapped Br'er Rabbit, wasn't it? IIRC, in the Disney version, it was the other way around.

You are wrong. You remember incorrectly. Watch it yourself.
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 10:00 pm | #

Yeah, RR, I heard that too, the music was wonderful, I had the LP as a child. But I have mixed feelings about updating it. Racism is a painful reminder of where we came from. We need to accept, it not sweep it under the rug.
strawberry | 05.16.06 - 10:05 pm | #

Man, is he awful or what? I'd fire this Snow guy. He makes someone who's not credible look even worse, if you can believe that!
éverdade | 05.16.06 - 10:07 pm | #

I think Tar Baby is a character in Uncle Remus stories which are African in origin and also have Bruh Rabbit and Bruh Fox (Brier)as characters.

The Tar Baby is actually a doll made of sticky tar and represents a problem thats hard to get rid of. Google Tar Baby for much more detail.

If it has been used as a racial slur its been misabused and misunderestimated. I think poor Tony Snow used it properly and was probably surprised to hear it was controversial............

But don't worry he will screw up soon.
drlee | 05.16.06 - 10:08 pm | #

Lane | 05.16.06 - 8:57 pm

You don't read or comprehend too well.

It's obvious you're a racist repug.

Are you related to David Duke or Pat Robinson. Maybe you're a first generation from your bother and sister.
tHeGaMeOfLiFe | 05.16.06 - 10:09 pm | #

Lilly White, you don't think tarbaby is a derogatory term? OK, so here's an assignment for you, fly to Los Angeles, take a cab to Watts, find a busy street corner, and tell the first person you see with a small child that he/she is the cutest tarbaby you've ever seen and then come back here and report their reaction. I used to hear tarbaby when racists referred to African American children. I was offended then, I'm offended now.

That's not the context Tony Snow used it in is it? You do the same but use the term "monkey" OK? See what will happen to you. "Monkey" used to refer to a simian is without racist overtones. Same for "tar baby" used to refer to an situation that you are not involved in will draw you in and get worse if you mess with it (like Iraq?). There are a lot of innocent words that could be used as you describe and they would provoke a reaction. I could refer to a garden tool used for weeding without problem, but if I called you by that name you would get offended. It'a all in the context. The context of Tony Snow's comment was without racism.
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 10:09 pm | #

Sorry White, it's offensive, insensitive and that is why NO ONE but a brainless pin dick would use that term, even in private. And anyone who would defend the term and use a moniker such as Lily White is a racist pin dick also. And before you go there, yes I am a bitch, I love to have sex and believe me I can defend myself, so call me a ho if you want to. You won't be the first troll to do so.
strawberry | 05.16.06 - 10:15 pm | #

Tony Snow = Amature and not too bright.
éverdade | 05.16.06 - 10:15 pm | #

amateur
éverdade | 05.16.06 - 10:17 pm | #

...even if he didn't mean it in the sense that its history represents, rest assured the general 30% of the redneck population who still supports chimpy, will read loud and clear what he "really* means, *wink*.

It will display Snow's connection with the average joe, and confirm what many of them think, but are afraid to admit publicly; those damn tarbabies are just no good.

I mean come on..many liberals get bent out of shape over certain words, just like the neo-cons, but this one is just ridiculous..either the guy is an idiot, or he just doesn't care.

I mean "TARBABY?" HAHAHAHAH
Destardi | 05.16.06 - 10:17 pm | #

lilly no one is denying your position... but you are also avoiding our positon...

ok his context was purely literary...

but you have to answer to why he would feel comfortable using this... given it's historical usage... as a racial hammer...

if he doesn't know it can be understood this way... the prez is in deeper trouble that...

think someone a few pages up used the term ignorance...

btw, ignorance of racism doesn't erase the racism... it's still racism/discrimination...
truthseeker | 05.16.06 - 10:18 pm | #

Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 9:51 pm

This isn't Black folk lore you dummy. It's white racist folk lore asswipe.
tHeGaMeOfLiFe | 05.16.06 - 10:22 pm | #

Mountain out of a molehill. Concentrate on things of substance. Brer Rabbit -- derived from African American folktales.

The point you are making is not entirely clear.
cl | 05.16.06 - 10:22 pm | #

but i have to ask why you are so uncomfortable discussing Tony's use of this word as a recial slur?

Because there was no racism in his use of it. It's a wonderful metaphor for a situation that you have no business messing with and if you do becasue of your own hubris, you will get drawn deeper and deeper into it so that you will have difficulty getting out again and might instead be trapped (Vietnam? Iraq? Iran?). Do you have equal problems with "Don't throw me into the briar patch" too? That too is often used as a metaphor for a punishment that is no punishment at all. It's from the same story.
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 10:24 pm | #

I think that people in high level communications positions should have sense enough just not to use some terms.
I know the Joel Chandler Harris story and know that "tar baby" isn't a racial perjorative in that story. Also, the real point of the story that's worth quoting, is at the end in which B'rer Rabbit laughs at B'rer Fox and says, "Born and bred in the briar patch."
I have used the term "born and bred in the briar patch" in writing, but would never use "tar baby" simply because I know that plenty of people find the term offensive regardless of its literary legacy yada yada yada.
This was just dumb, and anybody born and bred in the briar patch of public communicatins should have known better.
shotsi | 05.16.06 - 10:25 pm | #

By the way, when I said Snow is awful, I wasn't even thinking of the tar baby comment. His answers were awful as a whole. The tar baby comment was just plain boneheaded.
éverdade | 05.16.06 - 10:25 pm | #

Eh, in context of the Uncle Remus story - I don't think the comment was racist at all - but it WAS an example of political tin-ear-edness because there ARE contexts in which this term is a slur.

What I find far MORE offensive is the vile and DISGUSTING arrogance of the way the WH is choosing to deal with the data mining story.

By saying he will neither 'confirm or deny' the story - he is CONFIRMING it. That is to say - if a reporter had asked Snow to confirm something utterly preposterous (such as Cheney donating his entire fortune to charity) - you can BET it would have been denied.

Clearly, this WH is acting so high an mighty because they feel CONVINCED they have wrangled imperial control over our nation, are above the law, and can do whatever the hell they want to with impugnity. Snow wasn't even TRYING to mount a reasonable defence of the WH's criminal actions, he's just spouting off obviously meaningless BS.

Man - all I can hope is those chumps in the WH don't have as much firepower to back up their hubris as they think they do.
-bee | 05.16.06 - 10:27 pm | #

Well, now that we've played the cancer card, had our liz bumiller it's scary to ask tough questions and minstrel show moments, what do we do for our next number?
Coop | 05.16.06 - 10:27 pm | #

They're gonna rip his fookin' head off. And they should. He's fox slime. It's not their job to make shrub look good.
Coop | 05.16.06 - 10:30 pm | #

This isn't Black folk lore you dummy. It's white racist folk lore asswipe.

Typical liberal racism. Denying that anti-bellum slaves and their African ancestors had any oral literary tradition. Harris may have invented some of the stories, but the "tar baby" story comes from African-American folktales. It's not his own.

Quote: "But an article Harris read on African American folklore in Lippincott's, which included a transcribed story of "Buh Rabbit and the Tar Baby," reminded him of the Brer Rabbit trickster stories he had heard from the slaves at Turnwold Plantation."
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 10:32 pm | #

Useless without transcripts
Echo | 05.16.06 - 10:35 pm | #

lilly do you think tony would have used this term in front of black reporters?
truthseeker | 05.16.06 - 10:37 pm | #

Unfortunately, my porno name is "Tarbaby Woodside". I don't consider my parents as serious racists, but in a 70's-ignorance sort of way, it must have made sense to name their little black dog that.
As far as Tony Snow goes, he actually makes me miss Scott McClellan, and I seriously disliked that pasty fucker.
Absent Mindful | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 10:39 pm | #

When these rich privileged fuckers get in their little cabals and conversate, these racist comments flow like water.

It's rather hilarious he didn't even recognize it to be a problem.
WolfBane | 05.16.06 - 10:40 pm | #

My grandmother used to call Brazilian nuts "Ni**ger Toes"... but you sure as hell don't hear anyone referring to them as such, now. Rarely do you hear anyone refer to making a mistake as "popping a boner," either.

Anyhow. He probably didn't use the phrase with the **intent to slur** but he knows damn well what "tar baby" means to most people.

What a jackass.
EconAtheist | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 10:41 pm | #

Oh, so he done helped them po pickininnys out of the goodness of his heart, eh, miss lilly? Ain't that right? Well, they'd be plum lost without a nice white man like him to help 'em find there way in dis world. Lawdy, that's fo sure!

Screw you, scarlet. We know how he meant it. We know how you mean it. We caught Barb's act in Houston post-Katrina. The whole Klan is just rich white trash. So's the party. So's the movement. Pick up your "bedding" and go.
Coop | 05.16.06 - 10:43 pm | #

Has anyone bothered to think that Snow might be deliberately pushing buttons on the left here? Despite the frothy claims of many, he *hasn't* actually said anything racist. But sure, freak out, react like he's Satan himself, because that's sure to get your position heard by those who *need* to hear it. And if he ever *does* screw up, well, just keep shouting wolf and we'll see how well that goes.

On one forum I read someone proclaiming at length his own intelligence before going on to blame Snow for his not having ever heard of the Remus' tale.

Do you *seriously* want to say that your ignorance is the responsibility of Snow? Aren't there, y'know, *real issues here* that could be better served by this attention?
alex dante | 05.16.06 - 10:48 pm | #

alex i like what was posted earlier... this post was made to talk about this issue...

there are posts for the war and immigration and other issues...

don't think tony had covert political "slam" intentions... if anything covert racism...
truthseeker | 05.16.06 - 10:56 pm | #

The whole Klan is just rich white trash. So's the party.

There's only one Klansman in the Senate and he's a Democrat.
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 10:56 pm | #

Has anyone bothered to think that Snow might be deliberately pushing buttons on the left here--alex dante

IF Snow's remark WAS made with some obvious ill intent - it probably would have been as a 'shout out' to Bush's vast racist base.
-bee | 05.16.06 - 10:57 pm | #

what about all the klans men and women that don't wear sheets?
truthseeker | 05.16.06 - 10:58 pm | #

About 5 years ago, Bush and Cheney both refered to Pakistanis as "Pakis". Some things never change.
Gary | 05.16.06 - 11:01 pm | #

lilly do you think tony would have used this term in front of black reporters?

In a previous comment I documented many many recent uses of this phrase in news articles. It's quite common. Do you claim that those reporters were using it to appeal to racist readers?
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 11:03 pm | #

About Toni Morrison's novel "Tar Baby":

[S]ee "Tar Baby and Womanist Theology," by Karen Baker-Fletcher, an assistant professor of Theology and Culture at Christian Theological Seminary in Indianapolis, which analyzes Toni Morrison's well-known novel (you guessed it), Tar Baby:

"Tar has funky qualities. It is thick, black, sticky, shiny, and powerful in its ability to hold things together. It is a symbol of black women's cohesive power. There is something very earthy about tar. It has body. Tar comes from the earth and is ancient. It has an elemental quality... One might employ Morrison's 'tar baby' metaphor to represent black women as the tar women of the church, who hold churches together." ....

In Tar Baby, Morrison reenvisions the African origins of the Southern folk tale of Br'er Rabbit. She explores the wealth of black women's spiritual and creative heritage. According to Morrison, the "tar baby" of Southern folklore originates from a myth of a "tar lady" in ancient Africa. She was originally a powerful symbol of black womanhood. For Morrison, the tar lady is a black woman who holds things together; she is a builder and cohesive force. If a mythological, pre-Christian ancestor of black women was a "tar lady," what is the meaning of such mythology for black womanhood? Morrison suggests that myths that are African in origin have been reinvented from one period of history to the next by blacks and whites, so that we must uncover the original meaning of myths to consider seriously possible meanings for today's world.

Source
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 11:15 pm | #

If the name fits....

Tony Snowjob
> | 05.16.06 - 11:15 pm | #

It is just like Bush..., select an idiot and his rating falls even farther "TAR BABY" should never be a phrase used by anyone, esp. someone in the public eye.
Martha | 05.16.06 - 11:15 pm | #

That is a great screen grab. He looks like Max Headroom, frozen like that.
Anonymous Source | 05.16.06 - 11:16 pm | #

lilly, appeal to racist readers?

two things:

1) i don't think you answered my question... would he use that phrase with black reports? just your guess...

and...

2) his intent really is not the issue i have... the fact that he felt "comfortable" using it and was "not sensitive" to the millions of black americans that do care about what happens in the country.. is...

did he feel more "at home" using the term and speaking in front of so many people that look like him?

the last thing blacks expect (use to at least) from the white house are racist slurs...

it just messes up the focus on the serious matters and reminds them of how easy it is for non-blacks to get away with slights of hand...

would he have been so loose with the term in front of an all black group of reports?
truthseeker | 05.16.06 - 11:17 pm | #

Lilly, I am adult enough to acknowledge that my memory of the movie is more than three decades old and faulty, and you are absolutely right about the Br'er Rabbit/Fox part of the Disney story.

Thank you for linking to the movie. I always loved it as a kid, unaware as children are of the tainted overtones it has. I just appreciated the music and the animation.

However, I do wish that you would be a little less specious with your statements. Several people have said that Snow probably meant no racist overtones when he said it. However, the phrase DOES have racist connotations, despite his innocent intent. Like your analogy of using the word "monkey," or displaying the Confederate flag, it shows a lack of sensitivity to the segment of population that takes offense to it.

My kids thank you for the clip too. They have never seen it.
RR | 05.16.06 - 11:22 pm | #

Or maybe Stanley I. Kutler's "vast racist base" at Salon.com?

Or maybe James Joyner's "vast racist base" at Outsidethebeltway.com?
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 11:24 pm | #

come on lilly... u should know better...

black people use of certain terms and phrase amoung each other is much more endearing than when someone of the majority race uses it...

this is the point...

terms or words or phrases or hand jesters or eye movements or body language... pick your item...

were used in a demeaning way by people who looked down on others as less than human... animals in some respects...

it's the way the term was used during that period in our history not the WORD itself...

when tony said "tarbaby" it caused people to question his USAGE... to aks why... that's all, question his usage of a previously primarily used "racist" word...

now to the point of being a racist...

would he have said that in front of an all black group of reports?
truthseeker | 05.16.06 - 11:24 pm | #

IF Snow's remark WAS made with some obvious ill intent - it probably would have been as a 'shout out' to Bush's vast racist base.

So Toni Morrison was giving a 'shout out' to her "vast racist base" when she wrote her novel "Tar Baby"?

Or Michael Scheuer's "vast racist base" at antiwar.com?

Or the liberals' "vast racist base" at the "Ruminate This" blog?
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 11:24 pm | #

Sorry, those last two comments of mine were out of order ("too many links"!). "The first shall be last, and the last shall be first."
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 11:25 pm | #

i don't think you answered my question... would he use that phrase with black reports? just your guess...

There are African-American reporters who work the White House Press Office and who were in the room today.
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 11:27 pm | #

Perhaps tomorrow he can find a way to work in Lil'Sambo, Tom Joad and Money Changer into his press briefing. They are also literary references and not at all the same thing as spic-n-span or chink in armor. How moronic and illiterate can a person be exactly "bla bla".
uppity kitty | 05.16.06 - 11:27 pm | #

NO
Che Gueverro IV | 05.16.06 - 11:30 pm | #

Like your analogy of using the word "monkey"

It all depends on context. Are you seriuosly claiming one can never use the word "monkey" in any situation without it being racist? Surely it is OK to use it to refer to a simian? Much as Snow's use of "tar baby" to indicate a "sticky situation" is a non-racist use. I can go to Home Depot and ask "Where can I find a hoe for less than $25?" without a problem. But I can't go downtown and ask a nearby policeman that.
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 11:33 pm | #

would he have said that in front of an all black group of reports?

Are the numerous links to (many liberal!) journalists I have posted also using the term as an undercover racist term?
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 11:36 pm | #

That's the first I've ever heard the phrase "tar baby" referred to as being a racist term. Personally, I think it's kind of ridiculous. I'm no Bush or Tony Snow fan. Far from it, in fact.

But give the guy a break. Let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill, which isn't really much of a mole hill. Assuming "mole hill" isn't considered to be a racist term. Not that I know of. Of course, I had never known "tar baby" to be such. Strange.
The DrewL Bucket | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 11:38 pm | #

lilly, your black writers examples aside... just because others have said it doesn't make it right...

tony presents himself as another aloof priviledged white who only knows how to talk in one direction... down his nose...

we all want to give him some benefit of the doubt but it just rolled off his tounge too easily...

USAGE
blacks use of a "racist" word doesn't carry the same meaning because he or she can look into the eyes and at the skin of the person using it and know that it is not to demean... for God's sakes they are in many ways the same... anyone elses intent has to be questioned...

call it a silent brotherhood or sisterhood and it's not unlike any other socially (organized) group

this being said... there are still some blacks who absolutely hate certain words being spoken at all...

hey free country...
truthseeker | 05.16.06 - 11:38 pm | #

Did anyone noticed that it was OK for Snows to use the USA TODAY poll which sait that 65% don´t have a problem with the NSA Data Base, but a second later when confronted with other poll numbers he insisted that "we are not going to make our policy on the base of poll numbers"...

Sounds familiar.
proudnottobeamerican | 05.16.06 - 11:42 pm | #

lilly, you still avoid the question...

i do hav sympathy cause you seemed to have stepped in it in this post...

but i said ALL BLACK group of reports, would Snow have rolled that term so easily if the entire group was black?

not the one or two in the room from BET, Black Enterprise etc.?

c the point is... again...

racism does not have to be overt to hurt... unintentional or ignorance is just as damaging...

if he had been in a room full of blacks he would have tried to be more careful with his language... maybe even throw in some slang here and there (which is equally offensive)... but he would have been AWARE...

Snow was clearly unaware and amaturish . he was insulting.
truthseeker | 05.16.06 - 11:49 pm | #

Don't worry Tony we got what you meant. Yes'um sar, we ez shore did!
america, f*ck yeah | 05.16.06 - 11:50 pm | #

blacks use of a "racist" word doesn't carry the same meaning because he or she can look into the eyes and at the skin of the person using it and know that it is not to demean...

Neither Michael Scheuer nor Stanley I. Kutler are black. Both are white. Why do you excuse them?
Lilly White | 05.16.06 - 11:51 pm | #

TAR BABY IS NOT A RACIAL SLUR!

Ugh. I hate seeing fellow democrats get this confused. Tar baby isn't a bad word. It's used in many stories (African stories and Br'er Rabbit) where a tar baby is used to trap a certain person.
Clay | 05.16.06 - 11:54 pm | #

lilly, excuse them?

read my post... i said black writers aside... "more people having used it doesn't make it right"
truthseeker | 05.16.06 - 11:54 pm | #

I am Tony Snow's age and the ONLY use of the term TarBaby that I have ever been aware of is referring to a black baby as a racial slur. He was taunting us on the left. Quit kidding yourselves!
Iowan | 05.16.06 - 11:56 pm | #

honkey
cracker
whitey
white boy
peckerwood... there

they're just words so, no big deal
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 11:57 pm | #

Yawn. Tar babies. Oreos. Twinkies. Crackers. Border hoppers. Who gives a shit? Quit being so sensitive. There are more important issues to talk about like the war, deficits, and healthcare.

Same idiots who bring up this petty tripe are the ones so concerned with gays or polygamy. Politics these days are so trite. Kids.
Paleo-democrat | 05.16.06 - 11:57 pm | #

Truthseeker, I admire your fortitude, but question your sense of fruitfulness.

If you seek concessions to a common ground, I'm afraid you're going to be sorely disappointed.

And Clay? "Tar Baby" is considered a racist epithet in the black community. Whether YOU consider it to be is not really at issue here.
RR | 05.16.06 - 11:57 pm | #

People! Read the stories of Asani. The way Tony Snow used the term "tar baby" was exactly how it was used in that story. Just because the term was used as a racial slur once by someone doesn't mean that it's always a racial term.

(If I say "spuds" is a racial slur for the irish, whenever someone refers to someone as a "spud" does that make them racist? No.)
Clay | 05.16.06 - 11:59 pm | #

P.S. RR, I'm black.
Clay | 05.16.06 - 11:59 pm | #

Is it still okay to say "chink", as in "chink in the armor"?

How about "niggardly"?

What a joke this whole "issue" is.

This whole "issue" is quite a joke.
r | 05.17.06 - 12:00 am | #

Paleo-democrat, et al,

why do white people have trouble talking about issues of race?

not trying to b insulting... just curious...

it's real...

and it's certainly not something you expect coming from a white house representative...

i think that's why this piece was posted...
truthseeker | 05.17.06 - 12:03 am | #

thanks RR...

but i'm not really looking for concensus...

just trying to get an obvious defender of Snow's to answer a simple question...

i think once answered we are fairly done and can go to sleep...

would Snow have used that term if he was in ffront of an all black group of reporters? and why or why not?

if it was so meaningless...
truthseeker | 05.17.06 - 12:06 am | #

discrimination is a joke if it's never been used to deny you:

a job
housing
a love interest
hospital care
fairness in court
safe passage while driving,

and of course the list goes on and on...

come on dems.. where you at!!!
stand up for the little people right!!??

this must be like what Dr. MLKing felt when he asked his white christian brothers and sisters for help during the civil rights struggle...
truthseeker | 05.17.06 - 12:13 am | #

Hug the tar, baby.

Press secretary eats asphalt on his first week.

Great start.

Uncle Ream-us | 05.17.06 - 12:17 am | #

Jeez - I'm beginning to think maybe Snow used the term intentionally as a means to divert people away from discussing the actual content of his answer- which seemed to be a flaunting of the WH's law-breaking in America's face.
-bee | 05.17.06 - 12:19 am | #

truthseeker,

Plenty of white and Asian people are denied jobs and admission to college due to race-based discrimination.

It's called affirmative action.
th5 | 05.17.06 - 12:20 am | #

i'm out...

much love...
truthseeker | 05.17.06 - 12:20 am | #

From right here at Crooks and Liars:

"Flint": Bush was always stupid for grabbing the "tar baby" of Iraq in the first place.

"Rebellion To Tyrants: FLUFF UP YOUR FEATHERS AND HEAT UP THAT TAR BABY!

"Flint" again: OBL wasn't involved in Iraq until GWB was stupid enough to grab the "tar baby" with both hands like the fool that he is.
Lilly White | 05.17.06 - 12:32 am | #

Didn't y'all read Uncle Remus in grade school?

"Brer Rabbit kept on asking her why she wouldn't talk and the Tar-Baby kept on saying nothing until Brer Rabbit finally drew back his fist, he did, and blip--he hit the Tar-Baby on the jaw. But his fist stuck and he couldn't pull it loose. The tar held him. But Tar-Baby, she stayed still, and Brer Fox, he lay low. "

Tony Snow makes a metaphorical literary reference (a rarity in the Bush White House!) and he gets accused of racism.

As many other have pointed out, a tar baby is from the Uncle Remus Brer Rabbit story. It's something that sticks to you from which you cannot get free. It's an innocuous metaphor.

There's an administration stomping all over the Constitution and we're trying to find fault with Tony Snow's metaphors.

Sheesh.
ZenX | 05.17.06 - 12:32 am | #

how fast would tony snow have been replaced if it had been an "anti-semitic" offense?
person | 05.17.06 - 12:34 am | #

More here at Crooks and Liars who love the "tar baby" phrase:

"COLORADO BOB": Abramoff is a "Tar Baby" there's alot of crooks stuck to him.

"Flint" again (who must therefore be a flaming racist according to some people here): "Bush was arrogant and stupid enough to grab the tar baby with both hands."

And an "Anonymous": "The mainstream media and the DC politicians are stuck to their Iraqi tar baby."
Lilly White | 05.17.06 - 12:38 am | #

The Snow Job has begun.
impeachthechimp | 05.17.06 - 12:43 am | #

Someone upthread mentioned how Snow Job used polls to make a point then flip flopped and said they don't use polls wehn it went against his talking point memo....

All I will say is "meet the new hack..same as the old hack..."

And throw in some tears and quivering lips and you can melt the brainless drones that ask him questions in a heartbeat. The lemmings jumped off the cliff today.

Press Secretary press conferences and the media bleating out stupid questions like Les Kinsolvingaproblemwithmybrain are nothing more than actors in Chimpy's Truman Show. Go ahead Tony and black em out...who cares. They suck. Crawl into your little bubble and hide.

Tony is a no different becasue he spews the same bullshit with a little more class plus he has beaten cancer which provides him with some sympathy when things get rough and he has to lie. Stay puff marshmellow boy just sweat and spewed sheet.

In my view, that yellow wrist band he was wearing was saying "you can't touch me" to the spineless bleating cowards farting into their cheap fold up chairs. I think it was a calculated Rovinian move to make people feel guilty if they hammrred him with a question.

I know several cancer survivors who you wouldn't know were ever sick. No wrist bands, no books, no stories. Just strong willed positive people. They are professionals who go on with their daily lives thankfull they have seen another sunrise.

Good for you Tony. You made it but if your life realy has changed, whers your soul if you took on this job ?
Andy | 05.17.06 - 12:49 am | #

Sorry White, it's offensive, insensitive and that is why NO ONE but a brainless pin dick would use that term, even in private.

Arianna Huffington must be a "brainless pin dick" then: "But the Democrats sit idly by, their thumbs otherwise engaged, while the administration's Iraqi tar baby grows stickier by the day."
Lilly White | 05.17.06 - 12:49 am | #

Miss Lilly's still trottin' out that Robert Byrd Klan thing. Chile, I do declare. How long ago did he renounce that, 50 years ago? 60 years ago? That's what I thought.

Tell it to the Black Republican Congressional Caucus. Oh, that's right. He retired.

We've still got testimonials from trash like trent lott ringin' in our ears sayin' hows we wouldn't of had all these negra problems if we'd just voted for ol' Strom Thurmond for President in '48 when that damned fool Harry Truman went and integrated the Army.

Screw you, scarlet and all your ignorant white trash ways and your heritage. The only place the Stars and Bars belongs is in Museums, on Reenactment Battlefields and behind the drummer at Lynyrd Syknyrd Concerts.

Can the Dixiecrat crap before ya start. They're either long gone or republicans. They've been repos for 40 years. If a repo don't sweep dixie, he don't have a prayer of becomin' President.

No bigots. No bush.

Now ain't you got some sheets on the line?
Coop | 05.17.06 - 12:50 am | #

How long ago did he renounce that, 50 years ago? 60 years ago? That's what I thought.

And "Story of Mr. Rabbit and Mr. Fox as told by Uncle Remus" was written in 1879. So Byrd has been off the KKK wagon for less than half as long as "tar baby" has referred to a situation from which it is difficult to extract oneself!

You are pretty selective in what you find offensive. I find voluntary members of the Ku Klux Klan far more offensive than a literary metaphor.
Lilly White | 05.17.06 - 12:58 am | #

AWWWWWW TONY...
WHY NOT????????
WE'D LOVE TO SEE YA HUG ONE!!!!!
raymond | 05.17.06 - 1:11 am | #

Nice try, Miss Lilly. The people you're defendin' we're up there behind that White House Podium on their first day, just proud as punch to be representin' King George all official like, citin' those examples like they was quotin' scripture.

And you're really bad at talkin' yourself outta self-inflicted jams you've gotten yourself into and I find current/active defenders of repos with Klan-like views whether they don a sheet or not to be about as vile as it gets so spare me the bogus outrage. You couldn't find a leg for 50 miles in any direction.

Your boy screwed up. So did you. Let it go.
Coop | 05.17.06 - 1:14 am | #

I would ask why progressives are throwing punches or energy into Snow's tar baby.

Im in the camp that is familiar with the expression as part of folklore, and vividly illustrative just as expressions are from Aesops or Grimms. Im not aware of a racist history to the expression, but have sometimes wondered if it had one, and were I Presidential spokeman, Id not have used it.

Second, for those who are wondering if a racist provocation was offered by Snow on purpose, especially in light of recent events, I certainly can suppose that's possible. But I would argue strenuously that this is a battle we should not engage in. Certainly racism is a battle worth fighting but this is just another example of the GOP calling the tune to which we squabble with our fellow citizens. Have we nothing better to engage?

The other day a clip of Delay listing the issues which he felt were important in the upcoming election rendered so transparent the hollow and ill conceived priorities of those in power. With the country in so much real trouble, not one of the issues he offered was substantive. Instead there were the tempests in the polluted teapots we are familiar with, so called moral values and such bile.

It is time to stop allowing our discourse to be guided into this mire. Ultimately, I would be interested in learning about whether the expression "tar baby" is offensive to african americans, so that I can educate my speech. But in the meantime I would rather focus on, say, Katrina, or the horrible injustice of black men rotting in prison, stuff like that.

Who cares what these fools say? Only those who are caught by the tar baby.
roman | 05.17.06 - 1:14 am | #

I apologize for not reading all the posts, and I may be providing information already registered here. But maybe not. Anyway, here goes:

The expression "tar baby" may be condescending in a way (which I'll explain in a moment), but it is not overtly racist. While I don't remember all the details (and don't want to cheat by researching the matter on the web), the "tar baby" comes from a story by the late, and late nineteenth/ early twentieth century [?], white southern folk-tale writer (originator, adapter, mere recorder? I don't know) Joel Chandler Harris. The tar baby was a sort of sticky (there's the key concept), tar-coated, scare-crow-like mannequin set up as a trap designed to catch the pesky Brer Rabbit.

Some considerations concerning Harris and his work: Harris's characters were mostly southern blacks, and his stories are presented as being their folk-tales. There is some controversy about their provenance. And, yes, Harris is a racialist, but rather more in the condescending style of the southern aristocracy and educated classes of the time-- e.g., Stephen Foster, whose work("Old Black Joe," "Massa's In The Cold, Cold Ground," "Old Suwannee River," etc.) was also mostly about southern black folk and, though frequently maudlin, was occasinally quite moving-- than in the vicious, hateful, white-supremacist style of, say, a confederate revivalist or of a typical NASCAR Nation representative of today.

Those who consider the use of the term overtly (or even covertly) racist, are making an error of the same category as those who think the word "niggardly" (admittedly similar etymology to that of the racist term "nigger": think Latin "niger", "Nigeria", etc., e.g.) is a racist slur. If anyone was fired over its use-- as I read in one post-- then that was a sad result of the same kind of ignorant misunderstanding.

The term "tar baby" is obviously awkward and best avoided. As an individual well to the left of the left of the Democratic Party and very interested in racial issues myself, I wouldn't use it (nor "niggardly" either, for that matter, for the same reasons), as its use clearly suggests something of a tin ear for others' sensitivities, however misdirected those sensitivities might be.

Let's not strain so hard to assume there is a blaze whenever we think we detect the slightest puff of smoke. Why don't we give this one a rest? Thanx, WSB
William S. Berry | 05.17.06 - 1:17 am | #

It's a problem that you don't want to fix because fixing the problem creates more problems. Nothing says that faster than "tar baby". I grew up in the South, and I've heard a lot of ignorant folk use a LOT of different words for black folks, but I have never heard anybody use the phrase "tar baby" in reference to a person rather than a problem.

Go figure.
"Tar Baby" totally legit. | 05.17.06 - 1:17 am | #

We all know that the three Rs of Republicanism are "R"ich, ultr-"R"eligious, "R"acist. But I still think we're going too far with this tar baby thing.
Lilly | 05.17.06 - 1:18 am | #

Oh, please.

No matter the origin, calling some*THING* a 'tarbaby' is no offense. It's a useful metahpor that doesn't draw on any of the racist elements that are present in the story that it originates from.

Go direct your energy at the important issues. Making hay over this just confirms you as a bunch of knee-jerk PC lefties in the eyes of those who would prefer to see you that light.
anachronism | 05.17.06 - 1:25 am | #

Look, Snow got off easy his first day. That's just natural. He got to play the cancer card. Lots of people have had cancer. Lots more know people who've had it. Everyone has a human reaction to that. He's also not Scott McClellan, so that's a big plus.

However, he did say I'm not going to presume to declassify the program which is tantamount to confirming its existance. He also said the tar baby thing which, let's face it, is not going to help a White House and a Party known to be less than sensitive to people who don't Play Polo or dig Larry the Cable Guy.
Coop | 05.17.06 - 1:28 am | #

The people who choose to see us in that light already vote repo anachronism.

My, my. That's an apt name for you. Since we've established that you've no trouble with tar and that you're a bit of a dinosaur as it were. Go find yourself a tar pit and fall in it.

Cheerio.
Coop | 05.17.06 - 1:33 am | #

"hug the tar baby"... HOLY FUCK!

from now on, I'm going to use the term "wax the cracker".

OMG!!!

This is as bad as my black friends boss calling him a script monkey out of anger and comparing him to Indians!!

he can say all he wants to about what he "meant" but in the context of my friends boss and Snow their choice of words makes it hard NOT to lean towards one direction.

thx
YouCantHandleDaTruth | 05.17.06 - 1:43 am | #

My dad and I were stunned when we heard Tony Snow's "Tar Baby" comment today live. We were even more stunned (though we shouldn't be anymore) when the media failed to mention it throughout the day. My dad, who is a little old fashioned, stated "well that does it for him! He's gone!" Not so with the media we have today--the "liberal elite" (joke) media who find it okay to side with typical (and more frequent) Republican racial slurs. The Republicans themselves won't police such language of course (because so many of them were brought up that way). So naturally--it "never happened". Our only excuse we could figure out for the media THIS time is that Snow did that crying act, which I found very staged/fake (I have had a serious life threatening illness so I don't want to hear it!). The mainstream CONSERVATIVE media stinks.
john | 05.17.06 - 1:50 am | #

The only context that I've EVER heard that term use in, and it hasn't been five times in my whole life, is racist. I accept no excuses whatsoever for a White House Press Secretary using that term. The fact that the term is repugnant and insulting to some people is every reason why no one should use it. That is not an extreme stance - it's called being thoughtful, compassionate, decent, mature - and for Tony Snow in his position, listened to by the entire word - responsible and a gentlman, which he apparently is not.
C.P.T.L. | 05.17.06 - 1:55 am | #

Question for some defending SNOW.

Had he come out and used the word nigger and was rapping it around something nice in context would that be offensive?

Why is the racially derogative term "tar baby" LESS offensive then? Because YOU know it to be placed in another context?

To those who are defending him would you mention a "tar baby" in a board room full of black people? If not then you're full of shit.

Thanx
YouCantHandleDaTruth | 05.17.06 - 1:58 am | #

Tar Baby
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Tar baby)
Jump to: navigation, search

For the novel by by Toni Morrison, see Tar Baby (novel).

For the character Br'er Rabbit, see Br'er Rabbit.

According to [1]:

"The tar baby is a form of a character widespread in African folklore. In various folktales, gum, wax, or other sticky material is used to trap a person."

In Southern black speech in the 19th century, the word "baby" referred to both a baby and a child's "doll." Thus, the expression "tar baby" meant a tar doll or tar mannequin. For an example of such a character in popular American culture see Br'er Rabbit.

The term also has a negative connotation. Again, according to [1]:

"The expression tar baby is also used occasionally as a derogatory term for black people (in the U.S. it refers to African-Americans; in New Zealand it refers to Maoris), or among blacks as a term for a particularly dark-skinned person."

The dual connotations associated with the term have resulted in many issues for public figures that attempt to make use of the term to refer to a sticky situation. [2] [3]
[edit]

References

1. ^ a b Maven's Word of the Day: Tar Baby, February 12 1999, accessed May 16 2006
2. ^ Stearns County commissioner: "I screwed up", Tim Post, Minnesota Public Radio, March 29 2006, accessed May 16 2006
3. ^ Seabrook Official Accuses Mayor Pro-Tem Of Using Racial Slur, Click2Houston.com, October 5 2005, accessed May 16 200
kaphtziel | Homepage | 05.17.06 - 2:06 am | #

Had he come out and used the word nigger and was rapping it around something nice in context would that be offensive?

Why did you defend the ex-Klansman Robert C. Byrd when he said he knows many "white niggers"?
Lilly White | 05.17.06 - 2:17 am | #

The expression tar baby is also used occasionally as a derogatory term for black people

In spite of challenging people to produce a reference numerous times in this thread, I have yet to have a citation for such use. I think it is bogus and make up. All you can come up with is a pseudo definition, but with no usage ever cited.
Lilly White | 05.17.06 - 2:20 am | #

"...How many of you "unoffended" defenders are black?
klaus | 05.16.06 - 7:30 pm | # ...."

BOOYah!!!

A white person saying that term isn't offensive is like a man saying pregnancy isn't painful.

There's something wrong with America when it's ok for a WH spokesperson to use racial slurs in commentary no matter what the intent.

Now I dont beleive in pinning someone with racist title with stupid wording UNLESS the wording is overt or UNLESS they show it in other past "covert" actions.

In Snows case hes; 1.) republican, 2.) He worked for one of the most racist networks on TV, 3.) he's the one that said racism was all but gone and 4.) he uses the term "tar baby" in a press conferrence.

Snow like Lott shades towards racist in my book.

Thx
YouCantHandleDaTruth | 05.17.06 - 2:25 am | #

Had he come out and used the word nigger and was rapping it around something nice in context would that be offensive? Why is the racially derogative term "tar baby" LESS offensive then? Because YOU know it to be placed in another context?

"N----r" has only one definition only and that definition is offensive. "Tar baby" used as he did is not offensive as it refers to a sticky situation. It's the same as "monkey" used to refer to a simian at the zoo. It is not offensive in that context. Used to refer to a person it is. Context is everything.

Note that you used "n----r" in your comment quoted above. Were you being racist when you used it? Were you trying to oppress someone? Were you appealing to your racist readers by sending a coded message of hate? Or does context matter?
Lilly White | 05.17.06 - 2:25 am | #

how's this one lilly?

(from http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/...?date=19990212)

February 12, 1999

tar baby

Several people have written:

I have come across the term "tar baby" recently. For example, a recent newspaper editorial mentioned the Clinton impeachment as a "tar baby" they'd have to get rid of before the 2000 elections. Another article, on a drug-policy Web site, mentioned the "medical marijuana tar baby" as an issue that the FDA had to deal with. What does the expression mean, and where does it come from?

The tar baby is a form of a character widespread in African folklore. In various folktales, gum, wax, or other sticky material is used to trap a person.

The folktale achieved currency in the United States in written form in one of Joel Chandler Harris's Uncle Remus stories, a collection of stories based on African-American folklore, narrated by the fictional Uncle Remus, a former slave. In the story "Tar-Baby," the character Brer Fox makes a doll out of tar, which he places by the road to entrap his enemy Brer Rabbit. Brer Rabbit talks to the doll, and when it doesn't answer, he hits it, and gets stuck in the tar. The more he struggles with it, the more he is entangled in it.

This story has led to the figurative use of tar baby in the sense 'an inextricable problem or situation', sometimes with the nuance 'something used to entrap a person'. Both the examples cited in the question show the use of this sense, which appears to be first used in the early twentieth century.

The expression tar baby is also used occasionally as a derogatory term for black people (in the U.S. it refers to African-Americans; in New Zealand it refers to Maoris), or among blacks as a term for a particularly dark-skinned person. As a result, some people suggest avoiding the use of the term in any context.
kaphtziel | Homepage | 05.17.06 - 2:28 am | #

Did you see him squeeze out a little crocodile tear for the Press Corp? They ate it up. They make me as sick as the Cons who own them. They're as guilty of treason as any Con is.
Brawlin_Dem | 05.17.06 - 2:36 am | #

No matter how the term was used, I despise Tony Snow. I hope he says a lot of things that will make things even worse for Chimpy (if that's possible).
neptune | 05.17.06 - 2:38 am | #

To be fair, Brawlin Dem, he was speaking of his battle with cancer last year.

As someone who had my own cancer scare and watched my sister battle leukemia, I am not going to sit in judgment against anyone expressing emotion over that subject.

Facing one's own mortality is an emotional issue. Let's give the man credit for honest emotions, at least on that subject.
RR | 05.17.06 - 2:42 am | #

kaphtziel, the two actual usages you cite (impeachment and medical marijuana) are of the benign "sticky situation" variety. The person then goes on to say it is used as a derogatory term, but yet again does not give any usage citations. Which is my point. No one has yet to cite a usage of it in the sense of referring to someone as a slur even though there are plenty of people here who claim to have seen it used that way. (Note: I have seen a usage where a person who is hard to get rid of is referred to as a "tar baby", but that is a subset of a sticky situation).
Lilly White | 05.17.06 - 2:48 am | #

WOW - he used the terms "tar-baby" and
"segregation" in his first press conference. Glad to see Fox News more up the White Houses ass more than ever!!!
Scott | Homepage | 05.17.06 - 2:51 am | #

lilly

that one was from random house publishers online. if you could show me another definition of the term online that is more authoritative- just send me a link- and I would love to check it out. I have no agenda here, I just want to know the real defition of the term...
kaphtziel | Homepage | 05.17.06 - 3:01 am | #

Can one of the big blogs at least mention that here the admin is taking the stance that it is "just numbers" no identifiable info that is being tapped.

Please bring the following to awareness. No credit is needed.

If you call 911 ... they have your address and name. This is housed in a database that goes with each phone number. So therefore, the governement already has access to what the numbers mean. This new survailance program is only seperated by the .2 nano seconds that it takes light to travel from one database to the other. It *used* to be a database of nouns. People, places and things. *All they needed was the database of verbs!* Now they know what all the people and places are actually *doing**.

The only place in the world where you can 1 find the name of who owns a number... (lots of people can do that).. and then actually know the names / dates / times / of who that person is talking too.

There really is nothing *worse* that we could give up in an age of communication.
Opnotan | 05.17.06 - 3:16 am | #

lilly, you wanted an example other than my own word on this, so here you go:

blackcommentator.com/tar_baby_pr.html
Anonymous # 34,598 | 05.17.06 - 3:17 am | #

"...truthseeker,

Plenty of white and Asian people are denied jobs and admission to college due to race-based discrimination.

It's called affirmative action.
th5 | 05.17.06 - 12:20 am | #...

And could you PLEASE be just a little more ignorant? We need more ignorance about programs in America.

Thanx
YouCantHandleDaTruth | 05.17.06 - 3:18 am | #

The South will fall gain!
impeachthechimp | 05.17.06 - 3:20 am | #

Bobby, Bobby, Bobby

Thanks for sharing your feelings about "stupid white liberals." Had to ASSume you were talking about me, since it was my post you quoted.

You're Oh for three there, but thanks for playin.
dr old | 05.17.06 - 3:20 am | #

"...Had he come out and used the word nigger and was rapping it around something nice in context would that be offensive?

Why did you defend the ex-Klansman Robert C. Byrd when he said he knows many "white niggers"?
Lilly White | 05.17.06 - 2:17 am | #..."

Thanx for answering yes or no to a yes or no question. (sarcasm)

Lilly, it sounds like you're apologizing for Snows comments now.

Thx
YouCantHandleDaTruth | 05.17.06 - 3:32 am | #

Lilly,

In case my last link didn't help with your social education, here's another:

From Slavery To Self-Defamation: An Interpretive History Of The "N Word"

"These epithets spread out from Virginia over all America, like a metastasizing disease:.....tar-baby....."
Anonymous # 34,598 | 05.17.06 - 3:42 am | #

"...Note that you used "n----r" in your comment quoted above. Were you being racist when you used it? ..."

yes, I was being racist because I'm a blind black KKK member who wears a lot of clothing to cover up my skin color (Dave Chappelle).

Now that I've answered your question how bout you answer mine?

Thanx
YouCantHandleDaTruth | 05.17.06 - 3:43 am | #

lilly, you wanted an example other than my own word on this, so here you go:

That's the usage I mentioned where a person who was hard to get rid of was referred to as a "tar baby" and in that sense too it is not derogatory. I want a usage where a person is called a "tar baby" as a racial epithet. I still haven't seen one. This one is pretty close in that it doesn't refer to a "sticky situation" at all. It's just used seemingly as a term of disparagement, though it's hard to tell as the guy's writing is crap. It's hard to make out if it's satire or if the guy is just an idiot.
Lilly White | 05.17.06 - 3:51 am | #

Success! Here are some actual citations using "tar baby" as an epithet.

http://kpearson.faculty.tcnj.edu...ry/ tar_baby.htm

1948- S. Lewis’ Kingsblood Royal: -- "I didn’t know she was a tar baby."
-- "Don’t be so dumb, can’t you see it by her jaw?"

1959- M. Shadbolt’s New Zealanders: -- "What a hide, though-"
-- "Those tar-babies and that fellow in the sweater."
Lilly White | 05.17.06 - 3:56 am | #

Lilly, it sounds like you're apologizing for Snows comments now.

There's nothing to apologize for. There was nothing racial about the use of "tar baby" as a literary metaphor for a situation that is difficult to extract yourself from that you didn't have to get involved with in the first place.
Lilly White | 05.17.06 - 4:01 am | #

Oh give me a f-ing break. He did not mean anything racist by it. (I'm a liberal too, ok?) This reminds me of when someone in D.C. said niggardly, and people got up in arms over it. You're all pretty f-ing sensitive. This is why liberals are hated by so many out there- stupid shit like actually entertaining people's irrational racial/social sensitivities.

Get over it, pussies.
Dana | 05.17.06 - 4:02 am | #

Tony has spent so much time in the right-wing Snow globe of Faux News that he has no clue about life out here in the real world of diversity. I mean, if Disney didn't think "Song of the South" was rascist, you would see excerpts on its television show. You don't.
Wonder if any Sunday morning pundits will ask Republican candidate for governor Lynn Swann, an African-American, what he thinks of Snow's reference. Oh, right, they only ask African-American Democrats embarrassing questions.
Pennsylvanianne | 05.17.06 - 4:03 am | #

Now that I've answered your question how bout you answer mine?

What question?
Lilly White | 05.17.06 - 4:04 am | #

From what I've always read, the original use of the "tar baby" came from Central-West African folklore, and represented something so god-awful sticky that it would be impossible to extricate oneself from once becoming mired in it's infernal gooiness. On top of that, the tar-baby is rude, insulting, and insolent beyond belief, taunting you into wanting to slap it in anger. This of course is a giant mistake, as once you've done this, it will be impossible to ever get away from. Tar-baby became an even more popular folklore tradition in North America among the slaves. Yes, it was an ethnic slur: it was code for "Whitey". Think about it, you've got some undeserving sonuvabitch lording it over you, making you work your ass off, insulting you, treating you as something less than human, and it takes every fiber of your being not to do the obvious thing, haul off and belt the bastard in the teeth - but you know that once you do that, you're hopelessly mired; there IS no escape. It's just not worth it, no matter how tempting. It's a shame that such an awesome metaphor for white supremist authority got turned into an ethnic slur directed against the folks who invented it. Frankly, though, I'd never heard of it used as an insult to African-Americans. I'd only ever heard of it in the traditional context of an inescapible entanglement. Frankly, we all ought to be using "Tar-Baby" as THE term for the War on Terror, or just return it to it's venerable usage to describe abusive Whitey.
Uh... | 05.17.06 - 4:08 am | #

Dana: "Get over it, pussies."

I don't let anyone tell me what to "get over"...so...right back at ya'.
Anonymous # 34,598 | 05.17.06 - 4:19 am | #

Dana, not sure what you meant; who're the pussies, and what should they be getting over? The word-usage police, or the right-wing Tony Snow apologists? Frankly, I love antiquated speech and usage, and I also despise everybody associated with Fox News and the current administration, so I'm confused.
Uh... | 05.17.06 - 4:25 am | #

Lilly, who seems to need much proof, I say this to you;

Some of us have said that we have been witnesses to this term being used as a racial slur. I have heard this usage many times, and have a personal reason to be offended by it.

Are you calling me a liar?
Anonymous # 34,598 | 05.17.06 - 4:27 am | #

Uh... Your story sounds nice, however...
a 'faggot' once meant 'a bundle of twigs', but I don't call my gay friends 'faggots'. I bet you don't either.
Anonymous # 34,598 | 05.17.06 - 4:39 am | #

On top of that, the tar-baby is rude, insulting, and insolent beyond belief, taunting you into wanting to slap it in anger.

Um, no. The tar-baby of the folklore tradition is always a passive doll. It's the person who gets caught in it who exhibits such pride and insolence that he can't resist poking his nose somewhere where it doesn't belong. The whole point is that the person entangled in the tar baby did not need to get involved in the first place were it not for his arrogance. The person who gets angry and can't resist hitting the poor innocent and passive tar baby is the bad guy of the stories.

Have you read Harris's version?

http://www.uncleremus.com/tarbaby.html
Lilly White | 05.17.06 - 4:42 am | #

a 'faggot' once meant 'a bundle of twigs', but I don't call my gay friends 'faggots'. I bet you don't either.

And Tony Snow didn't call anyone a "tar baby" either did he?
Lilly White | 05.17.06 - 4:44 am | #

And Tony Snow didn't call anyone a "tar baby" either did he?

Ever heard of the term "double speak"? I don't know what was in Tony Snow's mind, and neither do you.

And that comment wasn't directed at you anyway. That's why I began that post with the user-name Uh....
Anonymous # 34,598 | 05.17.06 - 4:53 am | #

"Uncle Remus" took a scary monster boogeyman and made it onto a doll. Louis Pendelton in the Journal of American folklore in 1886 ( I believe 1886. I don't remember which volume it was) has an article in which he recounts his childhood fear of the tarbaby. He was horribly afraid of meeting it "in the swamps and lonely places" because, if you even saw it you were lost. It's grin was so insolent you wouldn't be able to keep from hitting it. And when you hit it your arm would sink in and you would be stuck to it forever, dragged about by this monster tarbaby.
I'd never heard the term "Tar-baby" used as a racial insult until I read tonight's postings. My wife looked at me funny when I told her that and mentioned that she'd definitely read it used that way before. That part of my posting doesn't mean I doubt that it's been used that way. I'd just never heard it, having missed the SNL sketch with Chevy Chase and Richard Pryor (even though I'm old enough). For something way more offensive than the N-word in terms of origin, which is saying a lot, "faggot" ended up entering slang terminology during the Age of Reason in England, when even though by then the idea of burning witches at the stake was considered archaic and barbaric, they were still burning convicted homosexuals at the stake. That's a seriously ugly term, considering it's slang origin is based in torturous death. Also, Lilly, I'm refering to Tony Snow's use of metaphor and the reaction to it on this forum, not saying he called anybody a "tar baby". Although I'm always happy when people hate Tony Snow.
Uh... | 05.17.06 - 5:09 am | #

Christ! This administration is smarter than I thought. Now they've got the liberals on here fighting amongst themselves! 'Divide and Conquer' working beautifully by the use of a single stupid phrase. Guess it won't be long before we're as united as all the Democrats! *sheesh*
Spanky | 05.17.06 - 5:21 am | #

I wonder if next week the administration will have an entirely new set of hassles to deal with . . . .

Iran to require oil payments in euros
------------------------------------
TEHRAN, May 15 (UPI) -- Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad announced Friday that in July Iran will abandon dollar payments for its oil and natural gas exports in favor of euros.

The move comes amid a standoff between Tehran and Washington over Iran's nuclear fuel enrichment program. The Bush administration insists the program is cover for a nuclear weapons program, a charge that Iran denies.

All current international oil transactions on the New York Mercantile Exchange and London's International Petroleum Exchange are priced in dollars.

Middleeastforex.com reported May 13 that Ahmadinejad announced the change Friday during a visit to Baku, Azerbaijan.

Many political observers see the decision as an attempt to pressure Washington, which is attempting to line up other U.N. Security Council members to act against Iran for its nuclear policies.

Iran has also proposed establishing a euro-based Iranian oil bourse to compete with NYMEX and the IPE. The proposal was first put forward in the beginning of the Third Development Plan (2000-2005), and began to receive serious attention in 2005.

Some observers speculate that the Iranian switch to euros could negatively affect the dollar, as many central banks from oil importing nations could choose to stock up their currency reserves with euros rather than dollars.
Nancy Fulton | Homepage | 05.17.06 - 5:24 am | #

Everyone, everyone, look, this discussion of the term 'tar baby' is just one huge tar baby, its better not to even discuss it.

Wait, what?
Anonymous | 05.17.06 - 5:28 am | #

Uh...,

Lilly was actually responding to my post, which was a response to your previous post. Heh. Confused?
Anonymous # 34,598 | 05.17.06 - 5:42 am | #

The GOP loves to maintain its second class citizens.

Snow job’s tar babies reminds me of Reagan spokesperson Larry Speakes, who repeatedly joked about AIDS from 1982-84. In three separate press conferences over a three year period at the beginning, and well into, the AIDS crisis, Ronald Reagan's chief White House spokesman joked and laughed off questions when reporters tried to make serious inquiries about the AIDS epidemic.

Got keep someone in the back of the bus to hate.
Cynic in Chgo | 05.17.06 - 6:58 am | #

Good Lord, the guy selected an imprudent euphemism, he's not a racist and you all know that.....you just can't handle that he's not the beady-eyed whipping boy McClellan was; I suppose the White House dog is racist too?
voice of reason | 05.17.06 - 7:37 am | #

Tar baby? What does this mean? Forgive me for being 20 years old and having no earthly clue as to what this means. It's embarrassing but hey, I just read Brear Rabbit when I was like two and barely remember it.

Could somebody help me out?
Lola | 05.17.06 - 7:41 am | #

This is the first conference with Snowjob I've seen. My immediate observation is his pace and hooww slooowww heee taaalksss. This is an added bonus for the Bush Administration: Not only does he know how to "deal with reporters" (supposedly), but also he chews up a hell of a lot more time than sputterin' Scotty did.
An American in Europe | 05.17.06 - 7:48 am | #

You morons are so funny. Anything to grasp on to to smear thw White House. You all are a bunch of asshole losers
T Cox | 05.17.06 - 8:22 am | #

I think I speak for all of us when I say, "What the fuck?"

Does Snow think that shit is even REMOTELY appropriate? Hello, lose the white robes, wake up and smell the 21st Century.

(Lola, the term "tar baby" is a MEGA derogatory term used against blacks. It originated in the Uncle Remus stories, if I remember correctly, but during the past 50 years at least it was a racist slang term. In other words, it's nt just racist, it's OLD SCHOOL racist.)
5by5 | 05.17.06 - 8:34 am | #

Being European the phrase "tar baby" means exactly what it means - something that you attack and get stuck to.

I first met the phrase in the Brer Rabbit stories as a child - and I understood it then.

In London if we called any black person a "tar baby" as an insult they'd look at you like you had gone mad - they wouldn't understand.

This is yet another example of how political correctness is destroying the english language by removing any phrase that could possibly be offensive to anyone.

Has anyone read "Harrison Bergeron" by Vonnegut? - this is the kind of blinkered world we are heading for unless we realise that SOMETIMES a spade is a spade and not a racial epithet ...
drk | Homepage | 05.17.06 - 8:47 am | #

Come on, people! It doesn't sound like it, but maybe Tony Snow DID mean that as a racial epithet. Who cares? We've got issues to deal with that're a hell of a lot more important than anything having to do with Tony Snow. Remember Iraq? Afghanistan? Osama bin Laden? Health care? Corporate fraud? The environment?

This kind of crap is exactly what Karl Rove is HOPING we'll focus on -- enough distractions from the real issues to make the U.S. public think the only problems with the Bush Administration are superficial ones.
Brendan | 05.17.06 - 9:02 am | #

"...Now that I've answered your question how bout you answer mine?

What question?
Lilly White | 05.17.06 - 4:04 am | # ..."

1.) Would you mention the term "tar baby" in a room full of blacks.

2.) If Snow would have mentioned the word nigger in a benign context would that be ok too?

3.) If not, why is mentioning any other racial slur in a benign context ok?

Thanx
YouCantHandleDaTruth | 05.17.06 - 9:07 am | #

Hey that's not fair. I was banned from this esteemed shithole for dropping the N bomb.
Cato the Yankee | 05.17.06 - 9:09 am | #

I (colon) Tony Snow.
Cato the Yankee | 05.17.06 - 9:10 am | #

As someone from the Deep South who also happens to belong to a bi-racial family, I would not use the term "tar baby" -- even tho in the story the tar baby is the clear winner.

It most certainly is a divisive metaphor, as evidenced by the many posts in response on this blog.

If he's ripping off politically incorrect folktales, how about this li'l dittie?:

Tony, Tony White as Snow
How does your garden of white-lies grow?
Thirty pieces of silver buys your ticket to Hell
And pretty soon you'll have to go.
kablooie | 05.17.06 - 9:27 am | #

The Story of Brer Fox and Tony Snow

..."'I'm gwine ter larn you how ter talk ter 'spectubble folks ef
hit's de las' ack,' sez Brer Rabbit, sezee. 'Ef you don't take
off dat hat en tell me howdy, I'm gwine ter bus' you wide open,'
sezee.

"Tony Snow stay still, en Brer Fox, he lay low.

"Brer Rabbit keep on axin' 'im, en de Tony Snow, he keep on
sayin' nothin', twel present'y Brer Rabbit draw back wid his
fis', he did, en blip he tuck 'er side er de head. Right dar's
whar he broke his merlasses jug. His fis' stuck, en he can't pull
loose. De tar hilt 'im. But Tony Snow, he stay still, en Brer
Fox, he lay low.

"'Ef you don't lemme loose, I'll knock you agin,' sez Brer
Rabbit, sezee, en wid dat he fotch 'er a wipe wid de udder han',
en dat stuck. Tony Snow, he ain't sayin' nuthin', en Brer Fox, he
lay low.

"'Tu'n me loose, fo' I kick de natchul stuffin' outen you,' sez
Brer Rabbit, sezee, but de Tony Snow, he ain't sayin' nuthin'.
he des hilt on, en de Brer Rabbit lose de use er his feet in de
same way. Brer Fox, he lay low. Den Brer Rabbit squall out dat ef
de Tony Snow don't tu'n 'im loose he butt 'er cranksided. En den
he butted, en his head got stuck. Den Brer Fox, he sa'ntered
fort', lookin' dez ez innercent ez wunner yo' mammy's mockin'-
birds.
Udon Nomee | 05.17.06 - 9:33 am | #

Having watched the interview - it seems quite obvious from the context that NO RACIST intention is behind the speech act.

Clumsy, foolish and inappropiate maybe - but racist - no.
drk | Homepage | 05.17.06 - 9:37 am | #

Accusing someone of racism for using the term tar baby is just the sort of liberal idiocy that cheapens the term racism and helps get people like Bush elected.
Rick | Homepage | 05.17.06 - 9:41 am | #

i'm back and i have a minute...

rick, et al,
i think what we came to last night was that it simply showed his lack of sensibility to his listening audience.

this conclusion was drawn by assuming he would not have said that had he been in front of a room of all-blacks... he would have been more "sensative" to his language usage.

does that immediately make him racist? dunno, but we'll definately be watching.

at a minimum the ease at which he used it blinds his minority viewer (black in particular)to his message.

as far as racisim or discrimination...

it's no secret that there are those who participate in r or d activities by ommision. even by being ignorant or unwilling.

something like "repeating a word they heard in the comfort of family" was common and i believe it continues today.

intent or not it still hurts those who were subsequently abused or damamged immediately after by the aformentioned persons.

bottomline: he showed somes signs that we (race hater watchers) should watch closer.
truthseeker | 05.17.06 - 9:56 am | #

I don't see how it could possibly be idiotic to avoid a negative, discredited characterization from the past that does indeed offend (at least it would be offensive to my stepfather, my step-siblings, their wives and children and my cousins -- and by extension, it would cause me to blush in embarrassment at the use of such a term, especially by someone who draws a taxpayer-funded salary.)

Until you admit that the United States is in fact one big multi-racial family, Rick, you may not realize that compassion is what is needed in public discourse, not more of the same old B.S. when it comes to acknowledging failed racial stereotypes. Or are you not one to blush at such things?
kablooie | 05.17.06 - 9:59 am | #

Lilly White:

> 1.) Would you mention the term "tar baby" in a room full of blacks.

Only if no racial or derogatory intention was behind the speech act. If I was trying to explain the "Tar Baby Principle" or discussing old folk tales then this would be appropriate language.

> 2.) If Snow would have mentioned the word nigger in a benign context would that be ok too?

I hate the N word and don't think it should be used - ever. It hurts my ears to hear rap music that frequently uses the N word. The intro to Aphex Twin "Window Licker" video offends me.

BUT - if we were in a sensible discussion about the N word and its uses, and in using it I had no racist intention behind the speech act - yes.

> 3.) If not, why is mentioning any other racial slur in a benign context ok?

If we cant discuss this without offending someone - where are we?

I believe that the inentionality behind the speech act is of paramount importance.

If I use a word to insult anyone - then that is not good - but to avoid the word altogether - even in meta-discussions about the meaning and nature of the word - is bad.
drk | Homepage | 05.17.06 - 10:10 am | #

I am confused about the links in the original post, specifically the three articles linked through the words "people" "being" "fired." None of those articles describe situations where people were fired - they just describe situations where people called for someone to be fired or to apologize for using the term. Am I missing something, or is this meant to be intentionally misleading - leading us to believe that people have been fired for using this term, when, in fact, no evidence exists to support that claim?
Roger | Homepage | 05.17.06 - 10:12 am | #

drk, u seem to be reasonable...

i have a question...

why do white people have a problem discussing issues of racism and discrimination?

that one really baffles me...

even amoung supposed liberal or progressive thinking folks...
truthseeker | 05.17.06 - 10:15 am | #

What's he doing in that picture, the Robot dance?

Are we not men, we are Devo.
ysbaddaden | 05.17.06 - 10:33 am | #

tHeGaMeOfLiFe:

Chandler-Harris just popularized the Brer Rabbit story; he didn't write it. This story is a part of American folklore & to claim it is racist seems disingenous. And swearing at fellow Democrats will get you nowhere.
Jesse Holmes | 05.17.06 - 10:40 am | #

OOOOOOOOOO another liberal that takes offense to something totally unrelated! WOW, thats a new one!
Duu | 05.17.06 - 10:42 am | #

Hey C'mon. Even ol Strom Thurmond had a mulatto child from a Negress. We's all libertated nows.
No Dice | 05.17.06 - 10:44 am | #

PLEASE. Lets not get too worked up about this. This is another example of how we look like fools. He wasn't using it in a derogatory sense, though it has that stigma. PLEASE PEOPLE!!! Lets move on. I feel like the "General" from Monty Python - "Silly....Just silly." And then the knight shows up and hits you all over the head with the rubber chicken. You deserve it.

-Warn
Ward | 05.17.06 - 10:56 am | #

honkey
cracker
whitey
white boy
peckerwood... there

they're just words so, no big deal
Anonymous | 05.16.06 - 8:09 pm |
---------------------------------
Exactly.

I have yet to meet a white person who is HONESTLY offended by any of these words.

Also, since we're on the subject, how about the clear double standard when it comes to white people and black people using racial slurs?

A black person can say nigger, jigaboo, and some columnist even called Colin Powell a spearchucker. WTF? If he were white, he'd be fired and blackballed (o no, is that racist?)

I hear black comedians say cracker honkey etc all the time, and then go on to say nigger this nigger that. (And don't give me that shit about nigger-nigga. If a white person even said nigga, it's the end of the fucking world.)

Hey man, you got that new NWA album?
Yeah, man, I love Niggaz With Attitude!
What are you racist, you fuckin cracker?

Let this tarbaby shit go people. You make yourselves look almost retarded by harping on it so much.
Blomi | 05.17.06 - 10:56 am | #

blomi & ward, why do you have problems talking about or reading about issues of racisim (or discrimination) ? why should everyone have to quiet down regarding this?

it is very very real for anyone who has been victimized by it... blacks, disabled, women, arabs, etc.

blomi, black people feel comfortable saying slurs to and among each other because they have never been the oppresor in this country... mostly always the oppressed...

the rub is that particular word usage by the majority was almost always followed by some harmful action... for someone to so smoothly roll over that draws a lot of suspicion to them and their character
truthseeker | 05.17.06 - 11:05 am | #

I know! What if we stop speculating and try to figure out what happened. Let's try using... FACTS!

There are two ways to use this term. From the OED:

b); tar-baby, (a) the doll smeared with tar, set to catch Brer Rabbit (see quot. 1881); hence transf., spec. an object of censure; a sticky problem, or one which is only aggravated by attempts to solve it (colloq.); (b) a derog. term for a Black (U.S.) or a Maori (N.Z.)

So now it only remains to be determined: was Tony Snow using the word in its first sense or its second sense? Well, let's think. Does Tony Snow even know the second sense of the word? Keep in mind, he has probably not seen many more black people in his life than he has Maori people. After all, he is in the privileged class.

References to old books may seem obscure to you and me, but they would be less obscure to Tony Snow than the exigencies of daily life in lower middle class America, which we know from observation are an unknown territory to the Yalies and Princetonians that populate Washington DC. (Remember George Bush the first, who by his marveling at the electric eye in the checkout line revealed that he had never been in a grocery store before.)

The uberclass practices a different sort of racism. They don't spend their formative years hanging around the sort of simple folk who call black people gigaboos and spend the odd Saturday night burning a cross or dragging someone to death behind a pickup truck. That's small potatoes, and these people have amply proved that they are not about to mess with potatoes that are small.

Instead, they have starved and disenfranchised black people on a national scale. They drowned a whole city of them. Some of the stragglers they are rounding up and sending off to war, and the rest they are putting into prison to make rich the prison industrialists. We mustn't apply our smalltown standards to these colossi; they are altogether a different class of people.
Smarten up, y'all, damn. | 05.17.06 - 11:09 am | #

wow. you guys are really reaching. i don't like the administration either but to call this guy a racist when he obviously didn't mean it that way is disingenuous.

/no wonder they call you "whiney liberals"...jesus.
Anonymous | 05.17.06 - 11:21 am | #

thx drk for your response and I wont post the NWord again.

Sry mods, if I can edit it out I would.

thx
YouCantHandleDaTruth | 05.17.06 - 11:29 am | #

"...the rub is that particular word usage by the majority was almost always followed by some harmful action... for someone to so smoothly roll over that draws a lot of suspicion to them and their character
truthseeker | 05.17.06 - 11:05 am | # ..."

Right on, right on
YouCantHandleDaTruth | 05.17.06 - 11:33 am | #

No wonder they want to kill the tv feed at those things

Anytime you bush apologist/right wingnuts want to compare who has the franchise on racism in this country (conservatives vs liberals)...bring it on...

There are racist dems, but racist liberals? If a person subscribes to the notion that are a true liberal then that is an impossibility. Liberal by its definition:

"Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.

Tending to give freely; generous: a liberal benefactor.
Generous in amount; ample: a liberal serving of potatoes.
Not strict or literal; loose or approximate: a liberal translation.
Of, relating to, or based on the traditional arts and sciences of a college or university curriculum: a liberal education."

Snow f'ed up, everybody knows it, even you right wingnut apologists... He did fill in shows for Limbaugh "black qb lover" Rushie...(Donovan McNabb's #1 fan club member) maybe they have the same keys to the same locked Palm Beach Country Club restroom where racial jokes are almost required... Is Snow a racist? Who knows - bushies & wingers will say "No" of course... Snow was a described "liberal" at one point in college...but deviated (obviously)...looks like the money & power won over in the end and the good ol boys hooked themselves another one...

The good ol boy network of corporate america...how many times have you heard a racial joke...from a boss or colleague? Did you laugh? Did you give an uneasy smirk or smile feigning approval? Did you follow up with a joke of your own? Did you state how you felt (that it was inappropriate)? Its sad that its classified as an "HR violation"... Common sense loses again...and so goes the never ending chain of letting things continue on...as they are (Politically correct - term of the right wing used to debase the empathy for civil sensitivities or if you will "caring of others" emotions)

My Great grandfather came here in 1912 from Northern Italy, he was called every slur in the book...but unlike many families in the South of the U.S....Black & White included, the racism was not passed down through the generations in ours...he saw the stupidity in it...too bad it didn't stop in other families...

I recommend the book to sane members of the C&L forum...http://www.thinkingpeace.com/Lib/ lib067.html
right wing hater | Homepage | 05.17.06 - 11:38 am | #

Snow may well be a closet racist - even an openly racist Republican idiot (is there another kind?), but, stretching his use of "tar baby" is a bridge too far.

Google the term - hell, look it up in Wikipedia. All the references are as he intended.

It's a racist slur only in the minds of those who use victimization as an excuse for rap lyrics.

FWIW - I'm a liberal in the sixties mold. My first vote was cast for JFKennedy and my most recent for JFKerry. I hope to live long enough to see universal health care, a welcoming immigration policy, same sex marriage and the maturing of liberalism from its sophomoric obsession with words.
Tony | 05.17.06 - 11:49 am | #

Isn't it likely that Snow deliberately chose to use this phrase to describe his relationship with the media? In fact, it is illuminating if he did so (in my view, he surely must have), since he has now cast himself as Br'er Rabbit [the trickster] when he does finally touch a news story and engage the media. The media are in turn cast as Br'er Fox, the predator. He has set himself up as the trickster who ultimately outwits the predators by getting them to throw him into the briar patch (his native environment).

Snow's use of the phrase is brilliant on several other levels as well. One is that it provides instant fodder for the anti-PC trolls, and another is that sticky, quagmire-like news stories are tar babies designed by Br'er Fox (the "liberal media") to entrap Br'er Rabbit (Snow, and by extension, the President). The media had better wake up and take notice. He's taunting them. Br'er Rabbit always gets away!

Snow wants there to be a buzz about this.
rasmus | 05.17.06 - 12:02 pm | #

Well, let's face it, he's in the communication business. Communication is about being understood. Being clear. Saying what you mean, and meaning what you say.

Regardless of WHO got offended for WHATVER reason, if he MEANT "a situation almost impossible to get out of; a problem virtually unsolvable", then that's what he should have SAID, instead of trying to paint clever mental images with potentially inflammatory and sometimes derrogatory references to fictional characters from folktales. I don't think that's too much to ask...
Udon Nomee | 05.17.06 - 12:07 pm | #

And with regard to ethnic comedians using "slurs" in their comedy material, since some of you can't figure out the difference, allow me to enlighten you:

When a black man uses the word "nigger", "cracker", "honky", etc., in whatever context he happens to use it, you know exactly what he means and intends. If it's intended to be a joke, used in jest, though you may be offended (that's up to you), you know his intention. If he intends to disparage your ethnic heritage or origin, you'll know that, too. Without question.

That is the difference.

At this point in American race relations, it is almost impossible for a white man to use the word "nigger" in jest, without a lingering air of doubt as to how exactly he really meant it, and a question in the mind of the white man as to whether it was REALLY clear that he was joking... That's just how it is.
Udon Nomee | 05.17.06 - 12:25 pm | #

Turds for Bush
Herbert Hoover | 05.17.06 - 12:26 pm | #

"...no long at Fox News..."

How can you tell?
reset | 05.17.06 - 12:34 pm | #

It's nice to know I wasn't the only one who did a double take about that term. Everytime I think this administration can't get any worse they sink to a new low. Anyone else feel like you're in a Dali painting when you listen to these guys?
gr8shoes | 05.17.06 - 12:37 pm | #

I hear the repubs are aggressively reaching out to all "tarbabies" of voting age, now that latinos are no longer in vogue.
Satiric Phenomenologist | Homepage | 05.17.06 - 1:02 pm | #

I have no love for Tony Snow, but it's apparent to me that he meant the "tar baby" remark in the "sticky situation" context from the Uncle Remus tales. I think we should save the ire for the spin to come and leave this be.
rogar131 | 05.17.06 - 1:04 pm | #

When a black man uses the word "nigger", "cracker", "honky", etc., in whatever context he happens to use it, you know exactly what he means and intends.

In the case of "cracker", what if he's talking about saltines, or graham?
rogar131 | 05.17.06 - 1:08 pm | #

Pretty weak point.
I hoped you would pick your battles a little more carefully.

Your begining to sound a little more like that cry baby Arivosis over at America blog...
john | 05.17.06 - 1:35 pm | #

i cannot for the life of me get over how many of you who r self proclaimed liberals want to just "brush over this and move on"...

it's incredible... !!!

the man used a term that is considered by some (a disproportionate number of whom vote overwhelmingly dem) racial... plain and simple...

you have to question this... and u cannot look lightly over at least two solid generations of slavery that included amoung others name calling, indentured service, rape, maiming and even murder...

not in a 3rd world country folks but here... in this one...

as far as i'm concerned any sign or symbolence of that tone or behavior needs to be found out and exposed... a racist should never be made to feel comfortable amoung us...

you're right there are other matters of seemingly more importance.... however this post was put up to discuss this matter and i think everyone who has an opinion should be allowed to express it until John decides to take it down...

don't discourage people from discussing race and discrimination... it's real people! very real!
truthseeker | 05.17.06 - 1:39 pm | #

can someone answer for me... two questions...

1) would snow have used that same "harmless" term in front of a group of all blacks? and why?

2) why do white people have trouble discussing matters of racisim and discrimination?

as u can c i've been checking back periodically to c if there are updates...

sorry for pestering for those who really care to participate and not excuse...
truthseeker | 05.17.06 - 1:43 pm | #

Well, miss lilly, I do declare! I thoughts y'all were done with this foolish talk about tar babies and such! Lawdy! That's why I let ya off the hook last night when I coulda just gone on sittin' on the veranda, just a rockin' and a fannin' myself, enjoyin' my mint julep and let ya finish buryin' yourself alive out yonder under the ol' Juniper tree.

So who was it that launched the spirited defense of Byrd's use of the term white nigger, miss lilly?

That's what I thought.

Snow's wounds were self-inflicted. So are yours. You're in a hole. Stop digging.

Snow screwed up. So did you. Let it go. Unless you're doing a revival of Hair, you don't go around singin' "I'm a...... colored spade.."
Coop | 05.17.06 - 1:48 pm | #

two questions...

1) would snow have used that same "harmless" term in front of a group of all blacks? and why?

2) why do white people have trouble discussing matters of racisim and discrimination?
truthseeker | 05.17.06 - 2:10 pm | #

Well it's certainly not the first time he's used this particular turn of phrase. To wit:

"Most congressional Republicans are guilty of appalling cynicism and silence. They figure Clinton has hugged the tar baby in the Balkans and they want to watch him writhe."

(http://www.jewishworldreview.com/tony/ snow040599.asp)

http://www.jewishworldreview.com.../ snow040599.asp
nebbisher | 05.17.06 - 2:11 pm | #

look closely at this so called plane crashing in to pentagon its been edited you can still see the grey line of something lasts a second or 2 after the explosion what a cheep stunt
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12818225/
Anonymous | 05.17.06 - 2:14 pm | #

I highly recommend the book "Sundown Towns" by James Loewen. It might give the apologists a little perspective, and remind all of us of how the 'banality of evil' sometimes slips in quietly under the cover of darkness, when we are asleep and unaware.
Anonymous # 34,598 | 05.17.06 - 2:20 pm | #

But when you are playing cards, you still call the suit "spades".

The point is that some words that we consider racial slurs have more than one context. "Tar baby" happens to be one of them. That the literary allusion comes from a text that carries its own racial baggage doesn't change that. Joel Chandler Harris was actually adapting tales from the slaves themselves, and the tar baby story has roots in actual african folktales. I still contend that Snow was intending to reference the literary "tar baby". If a black man calls another man an "Uncle Tom" is it the same as if he is alluding to Harriet Beecher Stowe's character in less pejorative ways.
rogar131 | 05.17.06 - 2:23 pm | #

rogar131, in some cases, comparisons just don't count, and should be avoided.

I am always watchful of attempts to water down the racism that is alive and well in this country still today. It's in my, and everyone's, best interests.
Anonymous # 34,598 | 05.17.06 - 2:29 pm | #

tarbaby crybaby

I think tarbaby may be a good nickname for snow job.
Anonymous | 05.17.06 - 2:34 pm | #

since it was harmless... step up to the plate and answer this for Snow...

would Snow have used that same term in front of a group of all blacks? and why?
truthseeker | 05.17.06 - 2:36 pm | #

voice of reason - "he's not a racist and you all know that"

No, I do not know that. And, neither do you.

truthseeker, your question is such a good one. Clear, concise, and cuts through the BS. And the apologists, who seem to believe that they just know what is in Tony Snow's mind, haven't touched it yet? Hmmm.....
Anonymous # 34,598 | 05.17.06 - 2:49 pm | #

Gee, why do white folks seem so uncomfortable discussing matters of race, particularly around people of color.

I think I'll defer to Miss Lilly as she's our resident expert on Southern Folklore and Oral History and will no doubt delight us with rich tales of Blacks and their shameful treatment of their white slaves and other fables of the reconstruction, so without further adoo, I give you Miss Lilly.
Coop | 05.17.06 - 3:11 pm | #

I dont think it was intentionally racist, but it was extremly poor judgement for a WH press sec.
burningbush | 05.17.06 - 3:15 pm | #

"...would Snow have used that same term in front of a group of all blacks?"

Yes, probably.

"...and why?"

Because he's in the elite and he doesn't realize the lumpen have been using it as a slur.
Smarten up, y'all, damn. | 05.17.06 - 3:16 pm | #

Someone should inform Danny Glover (the anti-Bush black activist) that he is a bigoted, anti-black racist because he went and, ignorantly, narrated "Rabbit Ears: Brer Rabbit and The Wonderful Tar Baby" released on May 15, 1995. Available on VHS from Amazon.
Skandal | 05.17.06 - 3:16 pm | #

Political Correctness is making Democrats look stupider by the minute. ANd boy are y'all dumb!
Charles Butler | 05.17.06 - 3:17 pm | #

Check this article out, at least the first paragraph.

http://www.texasobserver.org/sho...p? ArticleID=478

Beloved Molly Ivins uses the same term here in much the same context. Was she wrong? I don't think she was, and I feel I am being logically consistent. My feelings about how much a turd Snow is doesn't change that.

Just so I am clear, I am a big fan of Ivins, and not of Snow, but I think both were using the term in the same way, and neither should be hit with bogus calls of racism. If Snow is indeed a racist, let's stack up some real evidence, ok?
rogar131 | 05.17.06 - 3:19 pm | #

Lilly -

Everbody else - 1,000

Some people love to waddle in stink. Let Lilly have all it wants.

Some fools just love being fools and repugs.
tHeGaMeOfLiFe | 05.17.06 - 3:31 pm | #

definatly been edited
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12818225/
you see something that looks like a plane not first second but 2 second then it goes sonic it would have stayed constant
Anonymous | 05.17.06 - 3:32 pm | #

Political Correctness is making Democrats look stupider by the minute. ANd boy are y'all dumb!
Charles Butler | 05.17.06 - 3:17 pm

Oh please repug. PC has nothing to do with common sense and respecting feelings. Which the repugs lack all three. You repugs are a stoopid hording bunch.

Go back to your site and praise your decider, jerk.
tHeGaMeOfLiFe | 05.17.06 - 3:38 pm | #

I respect tHeGaMeOfLiFe's feelings so much I just wanted to inform him he's a dumb shit.
Anonymous | 05.17.06 - 3:48 pm | #

rogar131 - perhaps it's all about perspective:

alternet.org/blogs/peek/35175/

Then again, maybe it's all about the true history of racism in this country. Let's not turn a blind eye. Hate often has a soft voice.
Anonymous # 34,598 | 05.17.06 - 3:50 pm | #

That's layin' it all on the line there, anonymous. 3:48pm. Ya just don't see stones like that outside the repo party much. I stand before you and piss on you in salute of such courage.
Coop | 05.17.06 - 4:09 pm | #

Gee, I hope that wasn't too subtle. Those guys can have problems with metaphor and imagery.
Coop | 05.17.06 - 4:12 pm | #

anon, thanks for actually reading my posts and replying with evidence. I agree it looks bad. All the more reason we should ferret out the real offensive stuff and not nit-pick literary metaphors, since that knee-jerk stuff can cut both ways, and has nothing to do with substance.

I realize this position on the "tar baby"-gate has given me some strange bedfellows, and I just want it to be said that 95% of the time I'm totally with the C&L gang, and I think my book addiction may have something to do with this particular stance. I tend to take it personally when symbols are corrupted. I feel sorry for the druid or whoever created the swastika.
rogar131 | 05.17.06 - 4:20 pm | #

rogar131, I have that addiction as well, and I'm not looking for a cure! I'll not live long enough to read every book I have in my house now, not to mention the ones that haven't even been written yet. lol!

I also agree with you on the particular sadness of symbols being corrupted. I hate when someone (or some group) co-opts a harmless symbol, and makes of it a hateful thing.

Peace.
Anonymous # 34,598 | 05.17.06 - 4:32 pm | #

Totally with you there Anon. I just bought copies of "Ivanhoe" and "Le Morte Darthur" today, and who knows when I will actually get around to reading them.

I'm glad we found some common ground here. I hated feeling like I was agreeing with some of the trolls around here.
rogar131 | 05.17.06 - 4:45 pm | #

Whats the record for shortest carrer as a White House Press Secretary?
I think we may have a new winner.

eb
eb | Homepage | 05.17.06 - 4:47 pm | #

all i'm offering gang is a look at what might be on a persons mind before and as they are speaking publically...

and i don't/can't support the literary arguement because it is irrelevent... because no one os disputtiing the definition... we all know now where "tar baby" originates...

i've been at this almost since the post opened...

THIS IS ABOUT POOR JUDGEMENT AND TASTE AND A LACK OF SENSITIVITY FOR A PERSON IN A VERY INFLUENTIAL POSITION...

he chose a phrase in front of people help felt "comfortable" around... that's key...

only one person has said that he would use it in a room full of blacks... not sure if they believe that or are poking fun...

for one i don't believe it because he would have been "sensitive" to the audience...

i believe some one summed it up nicely above... Snow is a pompus, elitist who cavalierly used a racist phrase...

that my friends is a RACIST TENDENCY...
truthseeker | 05.17.06 - 4:51 pm | #

Yeah, sure, right, they're gonna fire him. They won't even fire rummy for christ sake! Why would they fire tar baby? They're too fookin' dumb to get it anyhow.
Coop | 05.17.06 - 4:54 pm | #

This reminds me of what happened to Captain America. In the 1940's he had a white kid assistant named Bucky. Right before Capt. America was put in a deep freeze Bucky died. When CA was defrosted he got a new assistant, a black guy he also called Bucky. Marvel Comics got letters pointing out that that could be considered a racial epithet. They changed the name of the character. This was forty years ago. We haven't so much stepped forward since then but backwards.

Public outcry of racial sensitivies is not new, even if the offense was unintended. The movie Birth of a Nation (1915),received protests over its depiction of the races in its original release. Back in the 1950's a New York TV station tried to show a movie serial from the 1930's called Darkest Africa on TV. The plot was a mad scientist stretching natives to an unnatural size to be his army. When they weren't threatening white people they were running around screaming and rolling their eyes. Public outcry caused this station to remove it immediately.

We can no longer see Bugs Bunny torment this one African kid, who would hunt him with a bow and arrow. During WWII Warner Brothers had a cartoon banned because it was a satire of a Disney movie, and was called Coal Black and de Sebbin Dwarves, and it hasn't been seen since then.

So although that doesn't prove Snow did anything deliberate, these sensitivies are not new, and is just an example of how much things change how much they stay the same. It also says watch your step.
ysbaddaden | 05.17.06 - 4:57 pm | #

truthseeker, the fact that Snow has a history of making what I, and many others, consider to be racist comments, gives weight to your argument.

The man is well educated (in NC no less). He knows precisely what he is doing. He has always very carefully measured his words. This case is a good example of why I often say know your enemy.
Anonymous # 34,598 | 05.17.06 - 5:02 pm | #

Anonymous # 34,598,

zactly!

this guys personal speaking history bears this out...

i gotta run gang...

but all i want 1) his defenders and 2) those who want to avoid this kind of subject.... to see...

is that racism is sutle but is still suggestively damaging non the less...

a means to keep others outside...

i think, and this is just my opinion based on all your denfenses of him, that he clearly told any black person listening... "i don't give a f*** about you... i can say and do what i want"

and to those in the great southern hills and valleys of our country... "hey boys i'm one of you"

that my friends is RACIST... intentionally or not

now ask yourself... have i done something racist or bigotted lately towards someone else?
truthseeker | 05.17.06 - 5:18 pm | #

truthseeker, see ya'.

rogar131, let me know what you think of Le Morte Darthur, if you ever get around to it. I have thought about reading that one myself. Oh well, maybe someday! I always get sidetracked by the Social Sciences.
Anonymous # 34,598 | 05.17.06 - 5:25 pm | #

Hahahaha. What a hilarious humliation for Snowjob, and only within days of starting on the snowjob! Hahaha. That's the intellectual capacity (sic) of the DumbFUX-News Corp. crowd! Maybe Chimpy should replace Snowjob with the cretinous Glenn Beck of the Cretin News Network's own "Headline News". Michael Savage would make a great replacement for Donald Dumsfeld, and why not put Master of Delusion and Dumbed-Down Dipshit-think Hugh Hewitt in as Sec. of Education, and Billy Black-Baby-Abortionist/Casino Sucker/Femdom Fanatic Bennett in as Sec. of Treasury? These Repugs are hapless, they can't do anything, except lie, cheat, steal, fuck up, and destroy!

Doin' a heckuva job already, Snowjob! Try to watch out for those Freudian slips though from now on, OK, Snowy? Heckuva job. Go home and relax, have a Martooni, and enjoy one of those Al Jolson movies you like so much.

Oh, and Snowjob, Hug The Tar Baby, baby! Hug The Tar Baby! You know you want to! Go ahead, Hug The Tar Baby, Tony! You'll be OK. Just Hug That Tar Baby, Tony! It won't rub off on you, unless you want her too. No, just kidding Tony, you can do it, go ahead, Hug The Tar Baby. You want to.
(He's probably thinking, like Chimpy, about Condi. These right-wing dudes are pathetic, man. Sad.)
impeachthechimp | 05.17.06 - 5:39 pm | #

The guy just got hired as the White House Press Secretary for Christ Sake. Even this White House, especially, this White House would assume he can string more than two words together with a modicum of skill.

He wrote speeches for daddy. He's spent his professional life shilling for the reptilian agenda. He knows what he's saying and he knows why he's saying it. He didn't just become a neo-fascist last week. He's been at it a while, so miss lilly and the rest of you nitwit apologists can stuff a sock in it and spare me this shite about "it doesn't necessarily have to mean that," and whatever other "I didn't mean it, mommy" defenses that don't get a five year-old off the hook let alone a grown man on the job because it's just pure unadulterated horsebrithume.

The repos have a race problem. The answer is in the mirror.
Coop | 05.17.06 - 5:39 pm | #

"only one person has said that he would use it in a room full of blacks... not sure if they believe that or are poking fun..."

I am not poking fun. I believe that he does not know the second, colloquial sense of the term. I believe that he only knows the first, "literary" sense of the term. And that is because the two usages are class-based. And he's emphatically in the upper class.

"for one i don't believe it because he would have been 'sensitive' to the audience..."

That presumes that he could be sensitive to an audience of regular people. I submit that he could not. I submit that he is barely aware that regular people exist. This is one more instance of the same state of affairs that explains how George Bush, riding in a helicopter over flooded New Orleans, could look out the window and say, "I can't imagine what it's like to be sittin' on a roof wavin' my arms yellin', 'Somebody come git me!' Heh-heh-heh!" No, he literally can't imagine it. Couple days later it's "Brownie, heckofajob." Little disconnect, there? Maybe a touch of the profound schizophrenia? You'd think so if it were your neighbor saying it, but it's not your neighbor, is it? He's not crazy, he's just never poked a toe out of his Yale bubble. He literally doesn't know what's out there, even when he's looking right at it.

Their obscenely privileged position has separated the ruling class from most of the world. They are so far above us that they don't really know we exist, much less how we talk.

So don't kid yourself: Tony Snow would not have knowingly used a slur and created a little hassle for the regime. He had no idea there was any such thing as the second usage of that word. So it wasn't poor judgement on his part. He couldn't make a judgement because he didn't know.

These people are not racists, they're uberracists. They are above insults and white sheets--that stuff is for plebes. They do not even notice us except inasmuch as we represent an exploitable resource (cannon fodder, prison labor).

But never mind, carry on. I suppose we've got to do something while we wait for them to finish starving us out. Why not amuse ourselves by inventing little mythologies about their spokesmouthings?
Smarten up, y'all, damn. | 05.17.06 - 5:51 pm | #

Anonymous | 05.17.06 - 3:48 pm

It's still more than what I think about you, dripdic.
tHeGaMeOfLiFe | 05.17.06 - 5:51 pm | #

The word has at least two distinct meanings. Since I doubt he meant the racist one, this is really style over substance. I can't hold anyone accountable for a different definition of a word than the one they intended.
steve s | 05.17.06 - 5:53 pm | #

What's his job, steve?

You'd expect a carpenter to know a finish nail from a roofing nail wouldn't you? You'd expect a plumber to know a snake from a PVC elbow fitting, wouldn't you?

He works with words. Words matter.
Coop | 05.17.06 - 6:03 pm | #

I don't believe the webmaster posted this to uncover what the definition of tarbaby is but rather to ask why Tony Snow would use this.

As Random House notes, "some people suggest avoiding the use of the term in any context."

I think the answer is he used it because it is part of his vocabulary.

So as far as I see it the Press Secretary has racist words as part of his everyday speech.
CallItLikeISeeIt | 05.17.06 - 6:19 pm | #

The word has at least two distinct meanings. Since I doubt he meant the racist one, this is really style over substance. I can't hold anyone accountable for a different definition of a word than the one they intended.

So true.

From the Urban Dictionary:

"Style": 6. high grade crystal meth
I just smoked 5 grams of style, I'll be tweakin' for a week

"Substance": See drug/drugs
He's addicted to a substance, which explains his random acts of insanity.

"Word": 8. Used to express an agreement or affirmation.
Carl: Yo, you want some of these Funyuns?
Phil: Word.

"One": 5. means goodbye, spoken as a true gangsta
"You leavin? Aight one bro."
Lilly White | 05.17.06 - 6:27 pm | #

I don't believe the webmaster posted this to uncover what the definition of tarbaby is but rather to ask why Tony Snow would use this.

As Random House notes, "some people suggest avoiding the use of the term in any context."

So as far as I see it the Press Secretary has racist words as part of his everyday speech.

YOU just used it. Since Random house suggests avoiding the use of the term in any context, I can only conclude that you use racist words as part of your everyday speech. Therefore you are racist.
Lilly White | 05.17.06 - 6:31 pm | #

"The last whipping Old Mis' give me she tied me to a tree and -oh, my Lord- she whipped me that day. That was the worst whipping I ever got in my life. I cried and bucked and hollered, until I couldn't. I give up for dead, and she wouldn't stop... I stop crying and said to her, "Old Mis', if I were you and you were me, I wouldn't beat you this way." That struck Old Mis's heart, and she let me go, and she did not have the heart to beat me anymore." -Sarah Douglas, Federal Writers Project interview
perspective | 05.17.06 - 6:46 pm | #

"I was a lady's maid. I'd wait on my mistress, and I'd knit socks for all the folks. When they would sleep, it was our duty -us maids- to fan them with fans made out of turkey feathers -feather fans. Part of it was to keep them cool. Then, they didn't have screens, like we have today, so part of it was to keep the flies off. I remember how we couldn't stomp our feet to keep the flies from biting, for fear of waking them up."
-Mattie Mooreman, Federal Writers Project interview
perspective | 05.17.06 - 6:51 pm | #

"I get to thinking now how Wash Hodges sold off Maw's children. He'd sell them and have the folks come for them when my maw was in the field. When she'd come back, she' raise a ruckus. Then, many's the time I seed her plop right down to a-setting and cry about it. ...She said, "O, Lawd, let me see the end of it before I die...."
-Lulu Wilson, Federal Writers Project interview
perspective | 05.17.06 - 6:55 pm | #

"Outside of the Fort were many skulls lying about; I have often moved them one side out of the path. The comrades and I would have wondered a bit as to which side of the war the men fought on, some said they were the skulls of our boys; some said they were the enemies; but as there was no definate way to know, it was never decided which could lay claim to them. They were a gruesome sight, those fleshless heads and grinning jaws, but by this time I had become used to worse things and did not feel as I would have earlier in my camp life."
-Susis Baker King Taylor, Union Army nurse, from Reminiscences of My Life in Camp with the 33rd U.S. Colored Troops, Late 1st South Carolina Volunteers
perspective | 05.17.06 - 7:02 pm | #

"I'se been working for owner three years, and made with my children two bales cotton last year, two more this year. I'se a flat-footed person and don't know much, but I knows those two bales cotton fetch enough money, and I don't see what I'se got for them. When I take my little bit of money and go to the store, buy cloth, find it so dear, dear Jesus! -the money all gone and leave, children naked. Some people go out yonder and plant cotton for theyself. Now they get big piles of money for they cotton, and leave we people way back. That's what I'se looking on..."
-Old Grace, worker on Sea Islands plantation, demanding better terms from planter
perspective | 05.17.06 - 7:07 pm | #

"When we prepare for a journey, when we enter on a new undertaking, when we decide on where to go to school, if we want to shop, to move, to go to the theatre, to eat (outside our homes) we think quite consciously, "If we can pull it through without some white person interfering."
-Jesse Fauset, The World Tomorrow (New York), March 1922
perspective | 05.17.06 - 7:12 pm | #

"Men and women are not made on trains and streetcars. If in our homes there is implanted in the hearts of our children, of our young men and our young women, the thought that they are what they are, not by environment, but of themselves, this effort to teach a lesson of inferiority will be futile."
-Nannie Helen Burroughs
perspective | 05.17.06 - 7:16 pm | #

"I was de slave of John Johnson. Dey was good to de slaves, and I had no trouble. We always lived in de yard behind de house in a small one-room cabin, a pretty good place to live, I reckon. ... Yes, de Yankees was bad, dey burn't everything in deir way and stole cattle; but dey didn't come near our place.
-Mary Johnson, Federal Writers Project interview
Another Perspective | 05.17.06 - 7:27 pm | #

Look I know the bastards in the administration are not most of our cup of tea but it is obvious that Snow was referencing the story with the implications contained therein (a difficult situation that once embroiled becomes worse with efforts to disengage).

If people automatically make a racist connection then that is both sad and