How old is your oldest?
Both of mine play outside for hours. I check on them about every 30 minutes or so. But they're nine and almost-13. They can leave our yard and play across the street or next door without telling us IF THEY STAY OUTSIDE. If they want to go IN a neighbor's house, they have to come ask us.
I think a lot of it is that we as a society don't know our neighbors anymore. When I was growing up, we were in and out of each other's houses all day long. Our parents socialized, and watched out for each other's kids.
A lot of people don't do that today.
I agree that I don't really know my neighbors. I live in an apartment complex (of fourplexes) but we only know the upstairs neighbors.
My oldest is seven, so that has something to do with it. And they do play outside a lot, but there is a lot of paranoia about letting them play outside without keeping a constant eye on them. We got some new neighbors a couple of weeks ago -- a couple of old guys -- and I really don't like the way they look at my kids.
I know I'm paranoid, but even if we lived in military housing, I'd never let my kids play like I did when I was younger.
You're both right about not knowing the neighbors being a major source of anxiety.
Abductions are not more common, I think, it's mostly a greater awareness and perception of it. Stranger abductions, despite the screamings of nanny-state morons, are actually not very common. The vast majority of abductions are by non-custodial parents who are not a danger to the children (not to minimize a real problem).
Unfortunately, we all (me too!) fail to internalize reality. Realistically, your kids are in far more danger riding in your car than playing outside, but the perception is different. The difference is in the degree of control ones feels - we feel like we control our destiny when we drive, but we can't control others.
But a banjo helps ease the anxiety.
Hi. Interesting question. I was just discussing this with someone not too long ago. I think we agreed that there is BOTH more media coverage AND more danger. The population is more dense. People are taking a more "whatever floats your boat" attitude toward morality. The internet gives perverted minds a place to fester and get even sicker. I think there are a lot of factors that contribute. Being the mother of three girls, I would NEVER, EVER, EVER let them go off on their own- even if we knew all of our neighbours. Most sex crimes against children are committed by people who know the families. It is my opinion that the only safety comes from God and an eagle eye.
Reguarding the idea of children needing more medical care, it is my opinion that preventative medical care necessitates more medical care. Children get too many vaccinations too fast and end up with ear infections, allergies, autism, and other conditions. I think their immune systems get over-taxed. In addition, I think pollution, particularly in urban areas, breeds more respiratory illnesses and allergies as well.
Hello Lindsay. Thanks for dropping by.
I think you touched on a very important theory: that people seem to be taking a more laissez faire attitude with morality. However, I guess that's part of the natural progression (regression?) of society. Our parents said the same thing growing up, as did theirs, as did theirs, ad nauseum.
However, this is the first generation of folks with the internet and teh internets can be a place that fosters some of those particular weirdos that we parents really fear.
On medicine: I've heard those arguments and I'm still trying to decide whether or not I agree. I don't disagree completely, but I've not seen enough evidence to convince me. We had some friends at Fort Huachuca who were vehemently anti-vaccine. One of them has boys who are autistic and she and the other friend are crusading against vaccinations.
I feel for them, but I wonder if rather than that one thing being the problem if it wasn't a combination of several factors. I can't answer that, but I can pray for their families.
Ken, the only way a banjo can help with anything is when used to club a banjo player.
Great topic, Cullen.
I remember block-wide games with all the neighborhood kids, with even childless couples allowing free passage through their yards, as long as you stayed out of the garden and didn't annoy the dog. The standard child retrieval system was for the mother to go out onto her front stoop and sooeeeeee for the child like Tom's Aunt Polly.
I think that besides the natural fear of parents for their child's safety, we're seeing additional unhealthy fear of a child's having any difficulties whatsoever. We've lost the distinction between protecting kids and sheltering them. Children need to stray from shelter and learn to negotiate a tough world, and instinctively they try to do this - they take risks (some much more than others). They climb trees, ride bikes too fast, and test themselves in a hundred ways. Rather than accepting that as natural and balancing it with the proper mode of caution, parents sometimes just clamp down entirely too hard - instead of learning controlled risk, and learning how to balance boldness with discretion, the kids simply learn to fear any risk-taking at all.
Oh - the big thing about the video games you mentioned? It's not so much that they turn kids into oversized gummi bears, but that they have reset buttons. Anything can be instantly undone without consequence. It works very well, in fact, with the deadening of a healthy sense of adventure and risk. Rather than a world of others that may snub, reject, insult, or buffet (and from which they are shielded at all costs), the kids get a world in which they are the only active agent, one where everything can go their way all the time and where they can safely toss a tantrum if they are crossed in the slightest.
This is not to put down such games - I grew up on them and am still known to run the ol' baseball simulator. It's a criticism of the approach. My folks insisted on my learning to fend for myself whenever I could, so I naturally carried that into the vids - if I lost a guy early because I was dumb, I didn't start over, I determined to see how far I could get in spite of it.
Sorry for the novel, here. That's what you get for making me think. =)
On the medical part: It has been demonstrated that there is absolutely no correlation between vaccines and autism, and no correlation between vaccines and suppressed immune systems.
As for air pollution and respiratory illnesses, not really.
I'm open to the idea (unproven and I've never seen any evidence) that keeping kids away from germs and such leaves them more vulnerable later in life, but I'm reminded of the (most likely apocryphal) comment from an army doctor's reply to a northern-born recruit who noticed that recruits from the south seemed to get sick more often than those from the north: "No, it's just that the ones from the north who were going to get it already died."
Come over to the dark side, Cuuuullllennnn...
I took Alex to the doctor once for a check-up, and when his doctor saw his legs, with their childhood scars and bangs and bruises, he commented that he hardly ever sees little kids with legs like that anymore. Most parents don't allow them to do the things that cause them.
He said he appreciated my "letting" (like I could stop him) him just "be a boy." I laughed and said I had bumps and bruises just like that -- it wasn't a boy thing.
This IS a great topic.
I don't know if there actually IS more danger now, but that is certainly the perception. It probably is just more awareness, given the information age we live in, but being aware has certainly made us more careful.
And not just with the playing outside. It's seatbelts and car seats; bike helmets and elbow pads.
I am not saying these things are bad. It is just an increased awareness of what COULD happen that makes us do everything possible to protect them from that rare but horrible outcome.
I remember leaving the house on summer mornings, hopping on my bike and not setting eyes on my mother until lunch time, then setting out again until dinner. She had no idea where I was at any given moment.
I also remember trick-or-treating all over town...my parents didn't know everyone I visited. I remember riding in the back of my dad's pickup with the dog, or in the back of the station wagon...no seatbelt. And when I was on that bike, my head was bare. We drank from the garden hose. We ate sugar.
But once so-and-so's sister's friend's neighbor's nephew's kid fell off his bike and died, or was abducted, or was diagnosed with hyperactivity due to sugar overload, we scared ourselves into overprotecting our kids.
In some ways, I think this is good...they ARE safer. I couldn't imaging letting my boys ride in the car without seatbelts, and I always made them wear their bike helmets. But in so many ways it is sad. They will never experieince the same wonderful freedom and joy of being a kid that we had. And I agree with Nightfly, I think this does negatively effect their learning in some areas.
When I was five years old, I lived in Great Falls, Montana. On the Air Force Base there. My towel, safety pinned around my neck, and my imagination made me Superman. My imagination alone made me Spiderman.
There was a playground near our military housing unit -- it was like row houses, four townhomes to a unit several units to a "block" -- and every one or two housing sections had their own little playground. The one near us was at the bottom of a hill and they had leveled the ground for the playground and built a cinder block wall, maybe four feet tall, against the highground to stop the hill from eroding into the playground.
When coming down from our housing area, there were stairs that you would walk down to get into playground. But in my five-year-old mind I was either Superman or Spiderman. I never used the stairs and without fail I would leap from the wall. With or without cape, without fail, I would land poorly and scrape something. Sometimes pretty nastily. Sometimes that would end my play day.
I definitely don't fear this for my kids. Heck, I want them to go through this. I just have so much anxiety about Robert Child Rapist ... I seriously don't know how to overcome that.
On the medical thing ... Ken, that is pretty much how I feel (even on the autism thing although I hadn't read any studies proving one way or the other). It's just really hard to tell that to friends who have children who are autistic and are convinced that "undertested" medicine caused this.
'Fly, I have no problems with video games. Heck, I don't have many problems with any diversions like TV or movies, video games, etc. I have a problem with them being used as a baby sitter. But I'm really beginning to think that we're keeping our kids inside more because of our own paranoia rather than kid's not wanting to go outside. I'm sure there's some of the latter though.
Banjos are good ... kindling.
I must have come in right on the edge of the safety craze, because my experience seems to fall between some of the commenters here and what we perceive now: we played on our own, but our moms always knew where (whose house, which park, etc.) we were.
Could be influenced by my 100%-suburban upraising too, I suppose. We trick-or-treated on our own, but all of the candy had to be checked when I was younger. Didn't have a bike helmet until I went to college, but we always had to use our seatbelts.
My nephews live in a reasonably small town but they seem to be governed by basically the same rules that my sister and I were. And my kids probably will be, too. Although we do have the "up-armored" car seat and stroller ready for the baby...
Great topic, Cullen! Good comments too ...
I will now add my own novel to the mix:
When I was little, a boy my own age who lived in my neighborhood disappeared from his front yard. Never to return again. At least not alive. They found his body - 7 or 8 years later - but he was long dead. His murderer is now in jail for life. This event completely changed our small town. He was in his front yard, his mother turned away for a second - and he was GONE. Obviosuly the predator had been keeping a close eye on the events in the yard and knew when she turned away from the window... You know, it was every parents worst fear.
It was ... one of the freakiest things I can think of ... and made a HUGE impression on me at the time.
Our parents didn't keep us inside - I still spent the majority of my childhood outside AT ALL TIMES - but they did set up a neighborhood phone check-in system with all of the neighbors (again, with the knowing-your-neighbors thing - which I think is a great point). I remember my mom on the phone with a neighbor asking her to do a head-count of the kids in the backyard.
This would NEVER have occurred if that little boy hadn't disappeared.
I don't remember the fear of the adults somehow infecting our little lives. They didn't inhibit us from playing outside - (which is kind of eerie when you realize that the murderer lived in our neighborhood and went undetected and uncaught for many years - and nobody else was molested or vanished or killed - creepy) - but nothing happened to any of us.
We did have a bunch of "stranger danger" classes at school where cops would come and teach us how to bite and scream and hit - and teach us about bad people and how they acted.
Those "stranger danger" classes were really effective. I was not an urban child, I grew up surrounded by nature - and not too many strangers - but I still remember a lot of the points they made. It became very real to all of us because of our small friend who had vanished.
Those stranger danger classes are great. They get tons of that at school here and I'm thankful for that.
I still worry about my oldest (and I guess this is where knowing your kids plays a huge role) because she's so trusting of anyone and is one of those types who's "never met a stranger."
I'm not sure is there's a happy medium. Every community is different and no one answer will work for everyone. Part of this is going to be my acceptance that I'm just not ever going to feel comfortable regarding my children leaving the house ever again.
"I'm just not ever going to feel comfortable regarding my children leaving the house ever again"
Parenthood in a nutshell.
"...because she's so trusting of anyone and is one of those types who's "never met a stranger."
And isn't it a double edged sword?
On the one hand you want your children to be outgoing, friendly and trusting. You don't want to raise an intorverted, paranoid, distrusting kid who will likely turn into a troubled adult, but you want them to have a healthy fear of strangers and to keep themselves SAFE. Where is the line?
As I said above, there is just no clear cut right or wrong answer to this.
Red, I am so sorry about that tragedy. It must have been devestating to your town. And obviously, it's things like this that have gotten us to this place.
Oh God, I didn't mean to be callous to what your shared Sheila ... I guess I was driving on topic. I am also sorry that something like that happened.
Ken: As I am learning more day by day.
Shannon: It is a double-edged sword. I do want her to be outgoing and friendly while maintaining a healthy degree of fear. And she's getting better.
The real problem here, I think, is going to be further reaching. She not only overshares and is overfriendly with people, but she seeks a lot of validation from these people (and people in general). Phrases you'll hear my DN1 say: "Did I do this right?" "Did I do good?" "Am I smart?" "Was I the best?"
It's not like we don't give her praise, but she just doesn't seem capable, right now, of validating her own acomplishments. For now, I just want to give her what she seems to need and hope this is just a phase.
But it certainly throws the whole strangers being "danger close" into a scary perspective.
Paraphrasing Aaron Sorkin: As long as I came home at the end of the day, my parents were OK even though they had no idea where I was or what I was doing.
As for having more kids out and about, there were simply more kids, Cullen. I'm the oldest of 8. People don't have big families like that any more. There was always someone around that knew what to do in the event of an emergency. Cuts, bruises, scrapes, and sprains didn't qualify.
Rob - good point, much-overlooked.
Sheila - that is dreadful. I am so sorry to hear it.
Cullen - obviously I have no problem with the mighty genre of video games. Scroll my archives and you will see the stray screenshot of the many disassembled Stormtroopers who crossed my blade. =P
Ultimately, there's no way to protect them from everything, and that's the devil of it. You can prepare and be responsible and raise a great, smart, streetwise kid, and still lose him to random violence or accident. And sometimes it's no-one's fault at all. All you can do is give them a good shot, and see that they're happy and healthy.
Cullen -
You're aware of all of this, though - you sound like a very conscientious parent, and aware of your daughter's personality - and what might need to be shaped, or what she might need help in. That's great! I don't think my parents had ANY awareness of the dangers that could be out there - and how I might fall prey to them, or whatever. You know? I think your awareness is amazing.
I remember watching that horrible video of Carlie Bruscia just calmly going with that stranger at the gas station - what struck me was her docility - she just walked off with him ... and it's like: this child grew up with Amber Alerts, and milk-carton announcements - and yet when push came to shove, a stranger comes up to her, says, "could you come hlep me with something?" or whatever he said - and she walked off with him to her death. Where was her survival instinct?
There's the whole Point A lesson - which I learned in self-defense classes as a kid, but also as a young woman - when I took a class in it. Fight to the death, if you have to, at Point A. But do not let anyone move you. Don't let anyone move you to a Point B. The cop who taught me the self-defense class I took in Chicago said, bluntly, "Girls don't get raped at Point A. They get raped at Point B. So die at Point A - fight at Point A - but do not let anyone move you." I have never forgotten that.
I've used the Point A/Point B lesson as an adult as well. Only once, thank God, but it worked. The guy figured it wasn't worth it to drag me off forcibly - and I made such a screaming scene that he backed off. They're looking for docile people - it's horrible, but it's true.
Donald Sensing wrote a terrific post in response to the Bruscia tragedy, cullen - with amazing advice on how to handle this horrible topic - - If you're interested I can dig it up.
This is one of my pet topics, obviously. Even though I don't have kids. That little boy disappearing made me aware, forever, that I needed to be on my guard. Never trust ANYONE. A horrible lesson to learn - but who knows if it ever saved my life? You know?
Thanks for the compliment, Sheila. I would be interested in that article, if you don't mind tracking it down.
It's weird ... you know I never thought of stuff like this until I became a parent. And especially having little girls, I'm acutely aware of all the abduction stuff, but I try and keep an eye open for what the crime levels are like in different areas of the city and the like. Another thing I never really thought about.
I think, too, that the media-frenzy surrounding abductions gives a false sense of how often this happens - You know?
But the whole Internet thing is what really creeps me out. A friend of mine has a teenage daughter - a good kid, no problems, good student - but one night my friend checked out her daughter's My Space page and her daughter had posted all these pictures of herself in a bikini. Now - they weren't inherently sexual - it was just a 13 year old wearing a bikini, big deal - but my friend suddenly saw how the freaks and pervs of the world would see it and she made her daughter take the pictures down.
It's horrible to think like a person who has a dirty mind - but sometimes you have to.
Here's the Sensing piece:
http://www.donaldsensing.com/
200...608055980311129
He has daughters as well - and as a young girl I can say that some of this advice was SO important for me as a kid. My favorite one is about the rudeness.
"It is not merely okay to be rude to persons who make you fearful or suspicious of their intentions, it is required. Your safety is paramount."
Anyway - best of luck, cullen - sounds like you're doing all the right things. 
Sorry - one more thing: the reason I say that one about rudeness is my "favorite" one is that it is the lesson I have most needed to keep in mind. To this day.
We're supposed to be polite, right? We're not supposed to hurt people's feelings, right? That is so engrained in us from a young age.
Recently I was alone on an elevator - the doors opened - and a creepy guy got in - and I just got a bad feeling, man. This bad feeling just washed over me. I would be alone in the elevator with this guy for over 30 floors if nobody else got on. I just - felt this flash of alarm so before the doors closed - I jumped back out and let him go off alone in the elevator.
Now he may have just been an unfortunate-looking man and he may not have been creepy at all and I might have hurt his feelings.
But I trusted my gut and got the hell off that elevator.
I'm not really a paranoid person - I don't live in fear - but when my gut tells me: FLEE - I listen.
Even if it makes me seem rude.
I'll stop now.
Hey, don't worry about long comments, I really enjoy your input. And thanks for the link.
It's funny (in a personal way) that you bring up the "must be rude" point. My younger daughter will have no problem with this at all. She has no problem being the nicest, sweetest, most polite thing on the planet -- when she's trying to get her way. But she also has no problem being as rude as possible when she's not getting her way. I'm sure this will translate for her later.
Those steps from the article are fantastic.
I so agree about Sensing's piece. Very helpful.
And the point about the rudeness is:
It's not about being rude when you're not getting your own way. We all know how to do that. It comes naturally. But how do we be rude when someone is being NICE to you?? Or when someone is doing nothing - like the creepy guy in the elevator? How do you be rude to the nice smiling person who comes up to you at the playground and says, "Hi! I lost my puppy and I'm really upset ... could you help me find it?" How do you just know to RUN as FAST AS YOU CAN away from that nice friendly person?
It takes training to be rude in that situation.
Still lurking, but I have to say that this whole conversation ought to be printed and archived. There's so much good stuff here. Have to print out that Sensing piece for later, too.
I understand. I'm just saying that my younger daughter's going to have a much easier time of it than my older daughter.
'Fly, yep. I think this thread is going to be my impetus to start a "Favorite Posts" section.
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