We also see it in roots like "descent" = ורד, "birth" = ולד, "deliverance" = ושע from which we have things like יָרַד, יֶלֶד, יֶשַׁע, but from which we also derive הוריד, נולד, הולדת, הושיע, הִוָּשע, etc. The examples are numerous. It seems Aramaic does the same, as we see with words like יְקַר (we see אוקיר in Is 13:12).
Note that there are nonetheless some roots underlyingly beginning י, such as ישר (which derives מישרים, not *מושרים), also יצת, יצב, יצע. These roots can be confusing because in non-qal forms they are found with a dagesh in the second letter of the root, where the yod has been assimilated, and so may be confused for having נ as their first root letter.
I am interested (but haven't found yet) if there are any roots that are biblically used as both beginning י and ו. Rabbinically?
There is some fairly good proof that in Northern Israel yayin was pronounced yeyn in the northern dialect.
http://onthemainline.blogspot.co...brew-
bible.html
ולד appears in the Torah in Genesis 11:30.
In Biblical Hebrew, we find that roots that were historically I-yod behave by analogy as I-waw, e.g. הוביש "dry out", from historical root yb$ (hence יִיבָש). the same tendency occurs in Aramaic, wherein we find מונקא 'she nurses' from root ynq.
Kutscher discusses yayin as yen. I mentioned it here:
http://www.balashon.com/2006/06/bet.html
Apparently Northern Israel was closer to the Phoenician tribes where they spoke that way (including Ugaritic).
don't have time to explain why i'm asking, but in modern hebrew how does one say grape juice (the real thing, not grape drink)
thanks for the clarification on r. breuer and sefer shemot. i will change it when i can
only bilingual? she's already six foe heaven's sake. when do you plan to introduce her to ugaritic, akkadian, arabic, etc.? :)
Ari -
In modern Hebrew we say מיץ ענבים - mitz anavim.
And as far as other languages - let's work on these two first...
Since the classical Hebrew word for grape juice is תירוש, any chance of a post on its derivation? (It doesn't seem like it would be related to any of the other ירש roots, though the Gemara (Sanhedrin 70a) homiletically associates it with ראש and רש.)
The word תירוש is probably derived from the historical root y-r-$ while ירש is derived from historical root w-r-th (hence הוריש). The historical root is also attested in Arabic.
I don't know if I'll do a post about it, but there's a very comprehensive section about tirosh in this article:
http://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/h...handle/2123/
482
pages 104-114
There's actually very little I could add...
well now that tirosh has been brought up, this is why i asked about grape juice: i was in machne yehuda looking to buy grape juice. i went from to store asking for mitz anavim (which is what was natural to me). everyone kept on trying to sell me grape drink (that purple-colored sugar water thing israelis consume). finally in one store i started getting upset and i explained to the shopkeeper i can't use this for kiddush. his response, "ah, ata mitkaven le-tirosh" and then he have me what i needed. since then i have called it tirosh and that is what i have since (incorrectly?) taught my son.
a few weeks ago we were by friends for shabbat and his brother who lives in israel asked me why i call it tirosh and not mitz anavim. i told him he's just an american ex-pat and does not know anything. he said tirosh is just a brand, but mitz anavim is the product.
is it possible some israelis use the commercial name tirosh for the product mitz anavim the way americans regularly say kleenex for tissues, vaseline for pertroleum jelly, etc.?
or am i just plain wrong and this is one more proof i am teaching my son a corrupted jargon hebrew?
"Arabic word for boy - walad, which in Hebrew becomes yeled."
Which became "lad," perhaps?
Speaking about wine. Is it just a etymological coincidence that Wine comes indirectly from the Vine?
No, it is not; vine is derived from wine...
I have often wondered about Yeda (knowledge) and Veda (as in the Vedas). According to the Wikipedia on Vedas the word comes from the Sanskrit "vid-" to know and means "knowledge". The English word "wit" is derived from it.
What do you all think?
... and as far as I know also the word idea is related. Maybe also the latin root vidēre, "to see".
Another argument in favor of an Indo-European origin for "wine" and "yayin" is the possibility that it comes from an Indo-European root, I think wendh, meaning "turn" or "twist." According to this theory (which I read somewhere, but cannot remember where), the word originally meant "vine," and later came to mean "wine," and was borrowed by Semitic, Kartvelian (Southern Caucasian, e.g. Georgian), and other language families. But I have also seen a theory that it was Kartvelian originally.
Regarding the possible connection between Semitic ידע (originally ודע) and Indo-European "weid" (source of "Veda," "wit" and "video"), it is one of the examples that supporters of Nostratic cite as evidence for a common origin between Indo-European and Afro-Asiatic. I don't know to what extent those who do not believe in Nostratic would say that it could be an early borrowing.
Would this "turn/twist" word be related to "wind" (verb or noun)?
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