Dave:

It's been said that while the written torah text is holy, it is the concepts in the oral torah whcih are holy. Thus how profound your inyan: "The idea here is not to confuse the description of something with the thing itself." We could also apply this concept to the english word 'staff' which is wielded by a leader, or the governing body of an organization which is also a 'staff'. One tangible and one ethreal--both nonetheless very real. Both are one and the same. Nu?
bartalmei | Homepage | 05.12.08 - 7:18 pm | #

The English word staff has both meanings as do shevet and matteh. The difference seems to be that sense of staff as "group of officers" developed much later in English.

See here:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.....php? term=staff
Dave (Balashon) | Homepage | 05.12.08 - 7:41 pm | #

This stuff about 'mateh' and 'shevet' sound an awful lot like the riddle given here, in balashon's comment section:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...00235026371757/ and
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...45275678290082/
(Bartelmai: think 'club,' too.)
Phil | 05.13.08 - 7:19 am | #

Another related word is 'dagul' of Shir haShirim 5:10--rendered by some as 'chiefest'. The word is also used in the Zimra Adir-Hu (e.g., dagul hu) translated by some as 'preeminent'. Perhaps this is the idea (in both cases) of the ruler over the 'rulers of thousands' refered to in Shemot chapter 18. In this vein, peradventure, a dagul could be considered leader of the military unit (degel). This same concept is related in Yeshiyahu 11:10 inasmuch as Moshiach is alluded to as ensign (nes) thus they are one and the same.
Bartalmei | Homepage | 05.14.08 - 8:59 pm | #

The criticism of the translation as "standard" misses the fact that in the past the term "standard" also carried a meaning of a division of people, in fact a division according to rank which might have been what was intended in these old translations which certainly would have taken cognisance of the Septuagint translation.
Dr Colin Naturman | 05.21.08 - 2:28 am | #

Interesting about standard - but do you have any examples of that usage? I didn't see any in the Online Etymology Dictionary, which usually does a good job of covering historical usage.
Dave (Balashon) | Homepage | 05.21.08 - 7:24 am | #

An example would be the usage in Commonwealth countries of "standard" for a division of school students according to year before the term "grade" replaced it.
Dr Colin Naturman | 05.21.08 - 10:33 am | #

In a similar vein of thought: the word "ensign" means "flag" or a naval officer responsible for "flagging the ship"--one again--one and the same:

http://www.etymonline.com/index....php? term=ensign
bartalmei | Homepage | 05.28.08 - 8:45 pm | #