Was trucking along well with Kirk G. Until he came to defense of McBrien. At the expense of Fr. Pacwa, Hahn, Madrid, Kreeft, my man Mark Shea. All of whom tie themselves in knots to maintain that shining goal known as Orthodoxy. While McBrien is the very embodiment of the Aging Post Vatican II Rebel. Who really did a number on we Cradle Catholics in high school and college curricula. To the point that many of us need to read Shea, Kreeft, other newbees.
Captain Marvel wins by a knockout, and Dale hits another grand slam.
If Catholicism is big enough to hold St. Francis of Assisi, St. Ignatius, St. Francis Xavier, Mother Theresa, St. Augustine, St. Thomas, and the Little Flower, it's certainly big enough to hold Peter Kreeft, Patrick Madrid, and Bill Cork.
I read McBrien Catholicism on the way into the faith and became a Catholic despite having read it. A doorstop would be too high of dignity for it.
I have heard hundreds of people thank the new apologists for helping them to come to the church or to return to it.
I wonder how many people have thanked Fr. McBrien for the same thing.
The information on McBrien's book (and the meaning of a mandatum) was really helpful.
One question, though: Why is McBrien still allowed to teach theology?
Jim:
Thanks much!
"Here comes everybody" is an excellent summary for me.
That, and one Lord, one Faith, and one Baptism.
Gerard:
My interest in McBrien is the equivalent of the fascination of viewing a fly in amber: it's interesting to see state of the art Catholic theology, circa 1968. Kinda like those times you stumble across episodes of "Streets of San Francisco" or "Maude" at 3:45am--you just have to watch in astonishment for a while.
Jeff:
Oh, probably a few owe McBrien their faith--a handful of folks who really think what they have is all there is. If that doesn't make you sad, nothing will.
My fear is that a lot more owe McBrien for the present perilous state of their faith. As Dr. Kreeft says, "a Catholic college is a great place to lose your faith."
He should know, being the last orthodox Catholic on the faculty at BC (Fr. Lamb is leaving for Ave Maria in Florida).
Someguy:
The short answer is that the bishops aren't enforcing the mandatum. Like the prochoicers say about abortion, it's a private matter between a theologian and his bishop.
We need a public liturgy for the conferral of a mandatum on a theologian.
{Applause}
{Sustained Applause}
Next time Bill picks on me can I call you?
While we're at it, can anybody tell me if this pope would pass a mandatum muster? Seriously? I mean, Richard McBrien hasn't been kissing any Korans in public lately...
Maybe he can get an education in moral theology from St. Blog's own resident advocate of mass murder. Oodles of credibility there.
Mark: Do you think Joseph will change his mind by having someone constantly picking the scabs off of old wounds? Or do you think that he's any more beyond the reach of God's grace than the rest of us sinners?
Joseph: While studying the Catholic faith as an Evangelical, I was profoundly impressed by this Pope's commitment to expounding Scripture. His methodology alone did much to overcome my prejudicies about the faith.
One could argue that the Koran episode was imprudent (and given recent Vatican statements about Islam that looks like the right call). But even aside from the special grace that comes with his office, I can't imagine a better teacher of the faith.
What do you think?
Kudos, Dale.
Someguy:
Your gracious reply to Joe is a fine effort and I commend you on it. But Joe doesn't regard his advocacy of mass murder as an "old wound". He regards it as Solid Christianity and is without remorse about it. He also regards the Pope as The Enemy. The only "wound" here is that I have repeatedly pointed out the gross hypocrisy of Joe's presuming to be an expert on True Christianity while advocating positions directly contrary to the commonly received moral teaching of the entire Christian faith. The only pain Joe feels is over being publicly criticized for publicly advocated monstrous evil in the name of Christ. He feels no pain for advocating the evil itself. More's the pity.
Shea, I have never promoted myself to be an expert on True Christianity. You, however, constantly promote yourself as a defender of the One, True Faith merely by the fact that you are a professional apologist. You reinforce that image by trying to define who is "Catholic" and who isn't. For example, Sean Hannity is a "cultural" Catholic. Fr. Thomas Doyle is a "protestant". Who's busy defining whom? And for what purpose, except to blunt any legitimate opposition to your Lewinsky-ite devotion to this pope?
Shea, how long do you think you can deflect serious criticisms of this pope's malfeasant governing of this church by bringing up side issues, devising moronic excuses and assulting other people's character? Only the sycophants in your "amen corner," who confuse theological fidelity with Christian behavior, refuse to see your tactics.
The emperor is naked, Shea. Wake up, already; your morning alarm rang eight hours ago.
Mark: For your own spiritual good, I respectfully suggest not confusing feelings towards a person with his words (which themselves may hide a more complex reality than anyone can guess).
Joseph: What do you think of what I wrote above? If you mean by "malfeasant" a wish that the HF would have done more in terms of church discipline (insert current headline here), I share that wish.
That said, I realize that at half his age, I have about a quarter of his energy on my best days. He has an awesome responsibility; and I am trying to remember to pray for him more often than I do because of that.
someguy, I wish this pope would do less teaching and more doing. Anybody can write anything they want (witness the whole blog phenomenon). And, rememeber, this pope was a former philosophy professor, and academics have a peculiar affection for big words and concepts. But actions -- or lack of same -- speak far louder than words.
Under this pope's governance, church leaders offer more sympathy and compassion toward child molesters, terrorists, murderers and dictators than toward their victims. That is an abomination regardless of who sits in Peter's chair.
Now, I know full well the pope personally abhors child molestation. But why hasn't he, for example, excommunicated Paul Shanley, the outspoken advocate of "man-boy" love? Is it because Shanley doesn't threaten the pope's authority directly (unlike Absp. Milingo, who "converted" to the Unification Church and married)?
What about his abolitionist attitude toward capital punishment, which violates both Scripture and Tradition?What about his excessive concerns with geopolitical issues (cf, the legal status of the church in Greece, the wording of the EU constitution) at the expense of administrative ones that are rightfully his responsibility?
someguy, teaching is more that just writing proclamations. People also teach by example, and I'm afraid this pope offers a rather poor one. George Weigel himself, the pope's most glowing biographer, even says that administration is not one of his gifts. Perhaps not. But after a quarter-century in office, don't you think it would behoove any pope to develop such talents for the sake of the people to whom he was called by God to guide?
I'm afraid -- like most intellectuals, poets and actors -- that this pope is infatuated with the sound of his own voice. He seems to believe that his brave words alone destroyed Communism as an effective geopolitical force. No doubt he played a critical role. But without the political (and, yes, economic and military) wherewithal of Reagan and Gorbachev, Communism would still threaten civilization today.
When God calls this pope to account, he will have much to account for, sophisticated words notwithstanding.
For your own spiritual good, I respectfully suggest not confusing feelings towards a person with his words (which themselves may hide a more complex reality than anyone can guess).
Huh? I've been quite frank about the fact that Joe is eminently dislikable. But what has that to do with the fact that he publicly advocates mass murder without apology or retraction? Surely, if there's somebody who cannot separate his personal hatred of a person from his analysis of their words, it's Joe. I can't count the times he's wished for me and various others to burn forever in hell. He prophesies such things on a regular basis and once expressed a fervent hope that my plane would crash as a prelude to my eternal damnation.
When I engage in conversation with Fundamentalists they tend to resort to a handful of techniques: misrepresenting Catholic teaching, twisting my words, ignoring large chunks of the evidence, and acting as though they are theological geniuses speaking to primitive life form incapable of intelligent thought.
Come to think of it, those are the same techniques used by America, Bill Cork, and Co. when it comes to fairly addressing the New Apologists. (Oh, and don't forget the personal attacks, such as labeling some of us as anti-Semitic simply because some of us don't think "Reflections on Covenant and Mission" was an infallible document.) So who are the real Catholic Fundamentalists?
>Come to think of it, those are the same techniques used by America, Bill Cork, and Co. when it comes to fairly addressing the New Apologists. (Oh, and don't forget the personal attacks, such as labeling some of us as anti-Semitic simply because some of us don't think "Reflections on Covenant and Mission" was an infallible document.) So who are the real Catholic Fundamentalists?
I reply: Carl what do you expect from an Eccumenical Fundamentalist?
I can't help noticing that Bill's response to this Blog reminds me of some of the answers I got from Radtrads I butted heads with on the Envoy-blog.
He makes specific attacks on others But when his attacks are refuted point by point instead of offering a counter point he just dismisses what his critic wrote & repeats his unfounded charges.
How pathetic? It's like reading one of Gerard's posts with just a little less testosterone.
BTW the Gerard I just refered too IS NOT "Gerard E".
Just to be clear.
So... um...
How 'bout those Patriots?
Mark: I meant that as a reminder to myself as well. Honest.
Okey doke.
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