Gravatar Disclaimer: I'm not saying this out of some liberal yearning for liturgical anarchy (see my blog if you think I'm liberal).

It is actually unprecedented to have every parish, chapel, and oratory in the Western Church praying the same Missal. Even after Quo Primum (1570), there were still dozens of Missals in the Western Church that were proper to a certain religious Order, a certain Diocese, or a certain territory. I fully understand the reaction against the insanity out there in Novus Ordo land, but I think there is also a danger in stripping all of the Local Ordinary's traditional authority over the liturgy of his Diocese. I think the chaos that came with the imposition of the Novus Ordo upon the entire Western Church, and the (over-) reaction of the liberal lit-niks in customizing and “inculturating” it should show us that are some big problems with the modern model of Roman oversight of the Western Liturgies.

Also, as to your comment about the Orthodox, I understand your point, but consider the fact that if you go to a Ukrainian Orthodox Church and then go to a Coptic Church, you will see quite a difference in liturgy, a difference that was not imposed from above, but which grew organically under the watchful oversight of the Bishops. We once had a similar landscape in the West, and though it was definitely dealt a mighty blow at the Protestant Revolt, it did survive in many places up until 1969. Unless we can somehow recover this, return to our organic, apostolic liturgies, then we this horrible pendulum will continue to swing back and forth between rigid universal uniformity and local anarchy.


Gravatar Think a combination of "the most irritating sound in the whole world" from Dumb and Dumber with the bellow emitted by a pickled Irish midget who was just informed that "last call" was three hours ago, and you're in the ballpark.

I can totally hear it.


Gravatar GFvonB:

I have to take issue with one of your premises. Exactly when and how long was that period of "rigid universal uniformity?" Would that correspond, in your experience, to the period from the conclusion of the Council of Trent in 1565-66 to the end of the Second Vatican Council in 1965? Because I would take issue with the characterization that there has been anything even remotely approaching "rigid universal uniformity" in the Roman liturgy ever.

Local bishops have had plenty of control over the liturgy in parishes, even to the point of dictating the topics of sermons in a certain diocese. And there had been a virtual plethora of local variations and celebrations and devotions which would never be found universally in the Church. I think you have set up a straw man, in re "rigid, universal uniformity." I will grant you, however, local anarchy has most certainly existed, especially since 1965.

I, for one, am not looking for "rigid universal uniformity." I know that Dale is not promoting that, either. Some are looking for it, but I think they will be disappointed by the current synod, if they think that is a possible outcome. And I take serious exception to the notion that there is any organized effort to strip local bishops of their rightful authority over the liturgy. There is a most serious discussion going on about the interpretation of norms for the liturgy, specifically GIRM, and this is healthy, normal, and welcome, IMHO.

Dale, si quaeris amoenam Missam, venite in occasum, ad Aquam-Frigam.

Sanctus Carolus Borromeus,
ora pro nobis!

PS: Crying babies are even more welcome here, and yours will not be alone, I assure you!


Gravatar Vigilate!

ipsissima verba

(singular: ipsissimum verbum)

Sancte Carole [Borromeo], o.p.n.

(vocative case)


Gravatar GFvonB:

I've periodically visited your blog (via Hilary) and I know you aren't a hatchet man of endless renewal.

I think we are in more agreement than the post indicates. I can see how I left the impression that I want hard xerox uniformity, but let me correct that: I do not. I also have no objection to genuine organic developments over time. Nor, to correct an even stronger impression, do I want to strip the bishop of any and all authority over the liturgy.

But.

What I am looking for is a restoration of the idea--the traditional one--that the Bishop is the steward of the liturgy, not its slavemaster. The variations that developed in the classic Catholic and Orthodox liturgies happened over a long period of time--organically--and not at the will and whim of the unaccountable local ordinary. Which, sadly, is what is happening now. Currently, the only corrective mechanism is a change at the top of the diocese.

Which is not how it is supposed to, or should, be.


Gravatar Fr. Stanley and Daniel:

Ah, my law Latin is biting me on the fanny again. Corrections in due time.

BTW, Fr.--Thanks muchly. Though, I must warn you, you haven't heard Rachel in mid-rant. The little angel turns into one great big lung...


Gravatar http://adult.paradise.free.fr hi daleprice 112922719796805285




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