I know you waited a while before becoming an active apologist. I know not everyone does. I was just checking out Paleocrat's website. He was received last Easter and he is debating away. It can be a little soon. I thought the same thing about Francis Beckwith. Sure his conversion got quite a bit of attention and he is hot right now. Plus he is trying to promote a new book on abortion. Still it is very quick to go into the fray and defend the church.
How long did Paul wait after his Damascus road experience? I think it was a few years. We get the idea that a convert is to hit the ground running. It is not biblical. In fact today's reading as mass was about leaders in the church. One qualification was "not a recent convert".
Obviously, with the Internet now, anyone can jump right in, gung ho, and be read by thousands of people. When I converted, there was not yet any Internet. I had to go about getting published the old-fashioned way: in an actual magazine, which is 500 times harder. I actually typed what later became my first book on a typewriter. When I got on the Internet myself, it was more than five years after I converted.
Would I have done the same if I had converted in the present time? Not likely. But I'm sure I wouldn't try to present myself as someone whose words carried all that much weight. I'd probably mostly compile older apologetics, because that is pretty much what I did at first, anyway.
Remember, though, that going from Protestant to Catholic is not like Paul going from Christian-murdering Pharisee to Christian. That's a huge difference. Beckwith was president of the Evangelical Theological Society, after all (he had to know something about theology), and had formal theological education, and was a leading Protestant ethicist. He's not like any Tom, Dick, and Harry who convert and go hog wild.
I had been doing apologetics with great vigor for nine years at the time of my conversion. I'd been on the radio as a Protestant. I was a cult researcher and campus and street missionary (even full-time for a while). I had been a serious pro-life activist. So it's not like I didn't know anything. Even so, I confined my apologetics to a circle of friends until the time that I became published over two years later.
I worry not so much about jumping right in, as much as I worry about people being ill prepared for the onslaught that will come against them. They could get disenchanted or burned out due to excessive zeal without sufficient knowledge. I think you can do stuff right away as long as you are well aware of your limits and the impropriety of a novice teaching anyone anything (at least not with any dogmatisim). Know your limits . . .
I think you can do stuff right away as long as you are well aware of your limits and the impropriety of a novice teaching anyone anything (at least not with any dogmatisim). Know your limits . . .
I think this speaks volumes. Especially where I'm at right now. I try to be open to criticism, whether it's right or wrong, which I won't know unless I use it for self analysis.
Presently, I need a change of heart and direction. I love apologetics but I need to get my priorities straight.
What do you mean, Richard? That you are spending too much time doing apologetics and neglecting other things? Very common . . . we all struggle with juggling competing time demands and responsibilities, I think.
Well to an extent yes. But mostly, I've been neglecting the spritual life; coversion and prayer etc. etc. etc...
sorry about the typos
Don't feel alone. I'm sure very many, if not all Christians struggle with that. So, sure, you want to work on it, as we all need to, but just don't beat up yourself and know that God is merciful and understanding of our shortcomings and our better desires and intents.
Randy,
Actually Paul didn't wait at all. Granted, his missionary journies did not begin right away, but "After he had spent only a few days with the disciples in Damascus, he began preachinig in the synagogues, 'Jesus is the Son of God.'" Acts 9:20. Also remember, it took him a while to get back to Jerusalem to see the 12 and get formal instruction. I do admit that his conversion is out of the ordinary.
In Gal 1 Paul write:
15But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased 16to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, 17nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus.
18Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days.
So I think he did wait 3 years before doing any serious ministry. Sure he went to the synagogue but that was part of what educated jews did. The point is he withdrew to Arabia for a while to get his new spiritual bearings.
I don't consider Paul's conversion to be so much different than protestant converts. In both cases all their previous knowledge was useful. It was built on and not discarded. Mark Shea loves to compare the way the New Testament builds on the old to the way Catholicism builds on Evangelicalism.
Fr. Gregory Hogg, an Orthodox priest who used to be a Lutheran pastor, has responded to Josh on his blog. Here is what Josh had written about him:
"Then you've got John Fenton and Gregory Hogg. Fenton and Hogg were high-profile converts who both got ordained in the Orthodox church before the chrism had even been wiped off their foreheads. And sure enough, now they're running around babbling like experts when neither of them have even been Orthodox long enough to celebrate three Christmases on the Julian calendar...and this in a tradition that insists that theology is 90% experience!"
"Past Elder" wrote:
"To expand the idea, it strikes me that Lutheran clergy who convert East always seem to end up Eastern clergy, and those who swim the Tiber end up in church jobs.
"Where is the Lutheran clergy who comes to the conclusion that Lutheranism isn't right therefore his Lutheran ministry isn't right, and converts to what he thinks is right and learns air conditioning repair or something and supports his family like everyone else?
"Seems like a professional church guy class changing his mind about the right company to work for.
-------------------
Then Fr. Gregory Hogg replied:
For the record:
1. When I became Orthodox, I was fully prepared to live out the rest of my life as a layman. The decision to ordain me, and the timing of the ordination, were not mine but my bishop's. Like all ordinations in the Antiochian Orthodox Church, it had to go through a review board.
I agreed to be ordained, of course, as Josh points out. But a number of prominent men were duped or forced into office--Chrysostom's friend and Gregory the Theologian come to mind off the top of my head.
2. I did not seek out either the recent interview on Ancient Faith Radio, nor speaking at the colloquium. I was asked to do both, and agreed. I will do whatever I can, as God gives me life, to serve the Church.
3. Those who've read my writings critical of Lutheranism--all written while I was still a Lutheran--can judge whether I exaggerated the problems I set forth there, or was not sufficiently nuanced. They are no longer my problems, or my business. God give you all wisdom to do what you can.
4. And to Terry, let me say: I know a number of Lutheran pastors who have become Orthodox over the past few years. Here's how we support our families:
Fr. Fenton teaches at a high school and some online classes. I teach 7 classes, at 3 different universities. Two men teach at classical schools. Another cobbles together a living teaching and designing courses for 3 or 4 schools. Still another is retired and supplements his income by working at a retail store.
None of the Lutheran clergy who've converted to the Church in the past 5 years is making anything approaching a living for his family by working as a priest.
But I hope no Lutheran becomes Orthodox by listening to a fool and a newbie like me. Read good stuff, like Khomiakov's "On the Western Confessions of Faith." And most of all, come and see for yourself what the Church teaches, how she lives.
I hope these remarks clarify some points for those of good will.
The unworthy priest, fool, and hopeless newbie,
Fr. Gregory Hogg
-----------------
And then I did:
Dear Fr. Gregory,
Thanks for giving your side of the story. As a constant target of Josh's ridicule myself, I can relate, believe me. I am certainly one who has "good will" towards you.
I'm quite familiar, too, with ministry work often not providing an adequate income (I have four children and my wife home-schools all of them). I've done delivery work to supplement my income as a Catholic apologist where necessary, but then have been mocked for that, as if it were somehow unsavory and not honest labor, honorable to God.
Clergy and other Christian workers have historically often taken on other work to make ends meet. I think that is a sad commentary, but not on those who are willing to sacrifice for the sake of doing work for the Kingdom that God has called them to do (as long as they truly are called and hence qualified).
It is also sometimes implied that royalty income from books is not "real" or respectable income, as if I should be ashamed of it. Josh has even attacked my posting of ads for my books on my blog, as if this is unethical or objectionable. The man just doesn't like me, as far as I am concerned. Or perhaps he is upset because his own seminary career didn't work out. Most if not all of this stuff is purely personal.
Either Josh was called to Lutheran ministry or not. He went to seminary. If indeed he was called, then it seems he has veered from that course. If he wasn't called, then he made a major mistake in discerning God's will, in which case he should take stock of his own life and stop judging everyone else's and whether they are called to some sort of formal, remunerated ministry or not.
One can't win with some critics. But we all must do what we feel called by God to do, mustn't we?, and encourage others to discern God's will for their life's work. God's blessings on you and your work for our Lord.
Randy,
What's interesting about Paul is that his meeting with Peter and the 12 seems to have little bearing on his subsequent teaching. He rarely quotes Jesus in his letters (whether he used quotations in his preaching is another question - the speeches in Acts don't seem to indicate it). He uses his Rabbinic training, his apologetical training in Judaism, and his calling by the Lord as the focal points. I think he does start preaching immediately (I need to dig a little further into Acts - it's not my specialty), and his conversion experience is what makes him an Apostle, on par with the 12 (in his own mind and I would think the estimation of the Church over the years).
I wrote on Josh's blog:
How would it be unreasonable to surmise that Josh is simply ticked off at a Lutheran who moved on to some other Christian tradition? It's the old "traitor" routine.
Why can't we respect others' deeply personal decisions under God? Obviously, as a Catholic I would disagree with both Lutherans and Orthodox as to where the "fullness" of Christianity lies, how to define the "Church" etc., but I feel no need to run someone down simply because he converted to Orthodoxy or to Lutheranism (or both), or whatever.
I may very well dispute his reasons, of course, but I don't have any need to pillory his person and motivations, as Josh seems to have. Has he no respect for clergy at all, for heaven's sake, to carry on as he does? Or does he just have an uncontrolled tongue, no matter who the target may be?
He can say what he wants about me. I'm used to it, and it is pretty much a joke by now (I'm always highly entertained, I know that), but I think he needs to issue Frs. Fenton and Hogg a public apology.
Where is the Lutheran clergy who comes to the conclusion that Lutheranism isn't right therefore his Lutheran ministry isn't right, and converts to what he thinks is right and learns air conditioning repair or something and supports his family like everyone else?
These guys do exist. I saw a protestant pastor interviewed on the Journey Home who was now running a clothing store. Scott Hahn looked at getting into the jewelry business. Many eventually find some minstry work but they don't know it is there when they make the decision.
What strikes me is how bullet proof this question is. If there are such people how would Josh hear of them? He would not. Unless they do some sort of apologetic work they just disappear. But if they do that then they are written off by Josh because, well I am not sure why. Still it seems like a request to prove a tree falling makes a sound when nobody hears it.
I'd have to say I agree with a waiting period even with guys like Beckwith. He may have a great deal of reformed theology and even Roman Catholic theology, but I heard him on a radio interview; and the interviewer (a PT) had more knowledge of the RCC's theology than Beckwith did.
Beckwith was ill-equipped to handle this guy's questions and comments and ended up sounding silly at times. In his defense, he thought he was going to go on this reformed theology show and just tell his story of why he converted back to RCism without having to address theological questions. That seems an unreasonable expectation, but it's what he claimed.
Regardless, at times he didn't sound too intelligent trying to defend the RC view.
.
Why did you turn down The Journey Home?
Randy said: So I think he did wait 3 years before doing any serious ministry. Sure he went to the synagogue but that was part of what educated jews did. The point is he withdrew to Arabia for a while to get his new spiritual bearings.
I'm not sure we can say he waited 3 years before any serious ministry. We know he immediately began preaching Christ in Damascus. He was in an Arabia for an unknown time, then returned to Damascus. We don't know how long he was in Damascus before he went to see St. Peter -- all we know is that it was 3 years from his conversion until he met with St. Peter.
So, St. Paul's example can show that new converts should take time to become grounded in the faith, and it can also show that new converts can and should defend the faith if God calls upon them to do that. Each case is different. Generally it is advisable that new converts take it easy and not leap into the fray so quickly. That's what I did after my own conversion 8 years ago.
Correction: it may have been 3 years that St. Paul was in Damascus after his return from Arabia -- the text is unclear and the 3 years can be counted in different ways -- but it seems to be 3 years from his conversion.
Why did you turn down The Journey Home?
I feel that my conversion story has been presented more than enough (Surprised by Truth, some variant in three magazines, twice on the radio, more versions on my blog) and don't care to be the center of attention in such matters on a TV show.
I'm not saying it is wrong or that no one else should do it. I just don't personally feel comfortable doing that. I didn't like it on the radio much, either, but I was asked, and it was a good opportunity. The aspect of TV takes it one step too far, however, for my comfort.
Speaking of the Journey Home, just this last Monday (Sep 17) in the second half of the show Marcus recommended Dave Armstrong's books/work.
Really, now? I don't think I've ever heard my books recommended on the radio or TV (apart from a radio show I was on myself). That would have been encouraging to hear. Awful nice of Marcus to do that. I'll have to try to listen to the audio.
Yes, I heard that too. He just said "Armstrong's books" when the subject of books showing Catholics how to defend their faith came up. He didn't mention your full name or the titles. It took me a while to realize he was talking about you.
I do think going on that show would give your book sales a boost. Guests are given the chance to promote their current projects.
Dave,
Just for the record, it seems that one of your books also has been recommended on a Catholic podcast called "Catholic in a Small Town", to which, by the way, I don't listen; I saw the link because I listen to other podcasts from the same network.
Cool. Thanks for telling me.
I wasn't Lutheran.
I was Baptist/Mennonite.
I know I won't fit Josh's criteria.
ah well.
I install floors now.
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