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The Lack of Prayer to the Holy Spirit in the NT as an Analogy to the Invocation and Intercession of the Saints and Angels ("Adomnan")
[7 June 2008]
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2...t-in-nt-
as.html
This is a good argument to keep handy in the Apologetics tool belt. It is a double whammy, on one hand they accept it but it is not in Scripture, yet it would be undoubtedly heretical for them to deny it.
Thanks Adomnan!
Dave now needs to start a list, similar to the no less than "50 errors of Luther" but in this case have a list with issues such as the one about Praying to the Holy Spirit.
Dave,
I'm happy to see you found the argument I advanced useful. Your careful review of the Biblical data lends it real cogency.
You're welcome, Nick.
It's a classic, Adomnan, and the type of argument I love a great deal. Thank YOU.
+J.M.J+
I wrote about this a number of years ago (the article is a bit old and may need to be cleaned up and updated a bit):
Pray to Whom?
http://home.earthlink.net/~mysti.../
pray2whom.html
Yes, there are some Evangelicals who say that one should not pray to the Holy Spirit - only to the Father in Jesus' Name. An online search would probably produce a few examples.
We know a Messianic Jew who told us, more than a decade ago, that there was something "irregular" about prayer to the Holy Spirit. Even though he certainly believed (and still believes) that the Holy Spirit is God.
(We haven't discussed this with him in a long time, so we don't know whether he's changed his mind. Could be, though; he's since earned a Masters' at a Presbyterian seminary)
As for addressing the holy Angels in prayer, I do believe there is some Scriptural basis for this in passages such as Psalm 103:20-21 and 148:1-2, as I explain in the article.
In Jesu et Maria,
Rosemarie,
Really excellent article. Thanks!
I had a hunch that some sola scriptura evangelicals would reject prayer to the Holy Spirit (and even prayer directly to Jesus Christ) as unbiblical. Your research shows that such opinions are in fact held.
And given those psalms you mention, there's arguably more biblical evidence for praying to the angels and the "hosts of heaven" than to the Holy Spirit.
In the Bible Church/Plymouth Brethren assembly I grew up in, we didn't pray to the Holy Spirit and we didn't Worship Him either, removing verses from songs that did so. The Elders of course believed these things to be unbiblical.
And this is the main reason I requested conditional baptism when entering the Church.
Very interesting, Chad. Now, I'm very curious as to how many Protestant groups take this line. Church of Christ might be another because they pride themselves on believing only explicitly "biblical" things.
How, then, do any such groups have a Bible, since the books of the NT are never listed in the Bible itself?
+J.M.J+
Just an example of pages that argue against prayer to the Holy Spirit:
http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/c...ad1/
r00417.html
...and against prayer to Jesus (the first says it is like a "faux pas"):
http://www.accuros.com/thornbush...llen/
lu11_1.htm
http://www.biblelife.org/
praypro...rayproperly.htm
http://www.a-voice.org/main/voice038.htm
All of these sites profess a belief in the Trinity, either in the article or in their "Statement of Faith." Apart from that I don't know much else about them.
In Jesu et Maria,
There are apparently more groups than I originally thought.
I couldnt find where to look on the Church of Christ pages, but I DID find this on an SDA page:
+++++
http://www.sdadefend.com/Spiritu...ion/Pray-
HS.htm
Should we pray to the Holy Spirit?—No, we are told to pray to God, and we are also told we can pray to Jesus. But we are never told to pray to the Holy Spirit. This is because it is His work to move on our hearts to repent, pray to God, and seek guidance, help, and answers to specific needs and emergencies.
Should we pray for the Holy Spirit?—Yes, we earnestly need to pray for help from the Holy Spirit! But it is urgent that we pray in the proper way, in a manner which agrees with God’s Inspired Writings—or we could encounter serious problems.
+++++
I dont know if this represents 'official' SDA beliefs, but at least one of them believes this.
The funniest thing is that most of the Google searches I made turned up Catholic web pages encouraging prayer to the Holy Spirit 
A beautiful demonstration of the utter failure and danger of Sola Scriptura.
Venerable John Henry Newman would be proud of this topic.
This is great. Enough material for another paper! 
Thanks especially to Rosemarie for her work on this (and again to Adomnan). Kudos and bravo!!!
+J.M.J+
Thanks, Dave.
Actually, there's at least one more Bible verse where angels are addressed. However, it's in a Deuterocanonical portion of Scripture which Protestants don't recognize as God's word, of course. Anyway, here it is:
O ye angels of the Lord, bless the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever. - Daniel 3:58, the "Song of the Three Young Men"
In Jesu et Maria,
Yes; I was thinking possibly of a paper along the lines you suggest:
1) Men talk to angels.
2) What's the difference if they are in heaven or on earth when this happens?
3) Scripture shows conversation with dead men (Transfiguration, Saul talking to the dead Samuel, etc.)
4) Therefore we can ask angels to pray.
+J.M.J+
I've been thinking that the next Protestant objection would probably be: "Psalm 148 also says 'Praise him, sun and moon: praise him, all you stars...' - are we supposed to pray to the sun, moon and stars now?
I don't know if this is the best answer, but I'd probably reply that prayer involves talking to personages in the empyrean Heaven. The sun, moon and stars are neither actual persons nor are they in the empyrean Heaven. So, addressing inanimate objects in God's material creation, as Psalm 148 does, is not really praying, while addressing the holy Angels of God is a form of prayer.
In Jesu et Maria,
Oh, and it sounds like it's going to be a good paper, Dave! I look forward to reading it.
I also like the remarks about "calling on the Name of Jesus" meaning praying to Him. Makes sense! Wish I'd thought of that one when I wrote my article.
In Jesu et Maria,
A lot of this stuff actually goes back to my old papers compiling biblical proofs of the deity of Jesus and the Holy Trinity, dating from 1982 (eight years before I converted). The "calling on his name" passage comes from that, although I added more cross-references that I recently found, too.
Dave & Adomnan,
(please read this first paragraph humorously and with mock indignation)
Seriously? As much as I typed, and THAT'S all you put in there from me? I wrote the lion's share as I was interacting with Adomnan, Jonathan, Ben M, AND Dominicanis, and that's all I get? 3 puny sentences? And they weren't even good sentences!! What's up with that? Dominicanis shows up at the end, enters 1 or 2 comments, and he gets 8 stinkin' paragraphs. Why do I even bother?
(end of humorous mock indignation)
So let me get this straight. Dave, Adomnan, and nearly the entire Bible loving world agrees with my assessment of why it's ok to pray to Jesus and the Holy Spirit (since all 3 are fully God yet fully distinct, praying to one is like praying to all 3), yet you contend there's no Biblical support for it? That praying to all 3 violates sola scriptura? That's ridiculous! Since the Scriptures support praying to God and God is the Trinity, Scripture, therefore, supports praying to Jesus & the Holy Spirit. If I'm not mistaken, both Dave and Adomnan agree with that.
But there is no such connection between the heavenly saints and God. Therefore, praying to heavenly saints is NOT sanctioned by Scripture. Even Adomnan agreed that some things that aren't specifically condemned by the Bible are still disallowed. Psalms 103 and 148 don't even come close to supporting praying to an angel or heavenly saint. They merely state that the angels and heavenly host are praising God.
How do they praise God? We don't know! They might be singing songs; they might be playing harps; they might be playing soccer; they might be praying for people on earth (yes, I fully acknowledge they MIGHT be doing that); they might be lying prostrate worshipping God; or they might be doing something we've never heard of. We don't know!! Scripture doesn't tell us. To speculate they're praying for us is exactly that, pure speculation.
Dave said, We have the angels in heaven and what many commentators think are dead human beings ("24 elders") offering the prayers of the saints to God in Revelation 5:8 and 8:3-4. We have dead men praying for those on earth in Revelation 6:9-10.
Carrying a bowl of prayers is NOT necessarily praying for us. The heavenly saints in Rev 6:9 aren't praying for us (that we know of), they're simply asking God how long until He judges the wicked. That's a pretty big difference.
.
In the end, my position completely and accurately aligns with sola scriptura; in other words, I'm not contradicting myself. There IS Biblical support for praying to Jesus & the Holy Spirit (although I don't think I've ever prayed directly to the Holy Spirit), therefore it CAN be done; but there ISN'T Biblical support for praying to heavenly saints, therefore it SHOULDN'T be done.
I've thoroughly enjoyed discussing this with everyone, and now I'll finally turn my attention to the question James has been asking about honor due to Mary.
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Carrying a bowl of prayers is NOT necessarily praying for us.
What are they doing with them, then? If they can't hear our prayers, why would they have the "prayers of the saints"? God just gave it to them to watch for a few hours while He was occupied with something else?
The heavenly saints in Rev 6:9 aren't praying for us (that we know of), they're simply asking God how long until He judges the wicked. That's a pretty big difference.
Not at all. As I have noted in several papers, these are imprecatory prayers, often seen in the OT. Praying that evil will be judged is a prayer. This shows concern for those on earth, coming from those in heaven.
There IS Biblical support for praying to Jesus & the Holy Spirit (although I don't think I've ever prayed directly to the Holy Spirit), therefore it CAN be done;
Indeed, there is direct biblical support for praying to Jesus (I found six examples). There is no direct or explicit biblical support, however, for prayer to the Holy Spirit. The evidence is deductive, based on other passages.
but there ISN'T Biblical support for praying to heavenly saints, therefore it SHOULDN'T be done.
The biblical evidence for prayer to the Holy Spirit is of the same type or sort as asking the saints to intercede: both are based on deduction from other data.
All of the essential elements to deduce the intercession of the saints are present in Scripture. I've outlined them above and have gone into more detail in many papers and in my books.
You have to dismiss it because your system doesn't allow it. But you need to get beyond your system and traditions of men (that irrationally forbid things and stunt spirituality) and get more "biblical."
And you are silly with the mock indignation LOLOL
Grubb: Dave, Adomnan, and nearly the entire Bible loving world agrees with my assessment of why it's ok to pray to Jesus and the Holy Spirit (since all 3 are fully God yet fully distinct, praying to one is like praying to all 3), yet you contend there's no Biblical support for it? That praying to all 3 violates sola scriptura?
Adomnan: I think it's okay to pray to the Holy Spirit only because prayer to the Holy Spirit is present in the Church's tradition. It is not taught in the Bible.
If I agreed with your principle of sola scriptura, I would not pray to the Holy Spirit.
You are being inconsistent. On the one hand, you say we shouldn't pray to saints and angels because doing so "is never sanctioned in the Bible, nor is it encouraged." The same is true of prayer to the Holy Spirit, which is neither sanctioned nor encouraged in the Bible -- in fact, it's never mentioned.
Your fellow sola scriptura believers who refuse to pray to the Holy Spirit are at least consistent. You are not.
If you accept that prayer to the Holy Spirit is legitimate even though the Bible never enjoins it, then you cannot consistently reject prayer to the saints because of the lack of a biblical injunction.
I want to reiterate what I stated at the end of my paper on this: that what's under critique here is an extreme version of sola Scriptura that Protestants themselves call SOLO Scriptura (the radical "Bible Alone" position). I wrote about this years ago, citing Protestants like Bernard Ramm.
The mainstream view holds that sola Scriptura is the only infallible authority. It doesn't rule out doctrines that are deducible from Scripture and based on implicit evidences only.
So what Grubb seems to disagree with us about is whether there is even indirect evidence of intercession of the saints. He obviously thinks not. We think there is enough, and I have compiled all I could find in many papers.
So it really boils down to a disagreement on the strength of the evidence about the saints over against the Holy Spirit.
But to be fair to our Protestant brethren, we mustn't collapse extreme versions of sola Scriptura (the solo thing) into the thing itself.
These ones you say are "consistent" are that, but to a radical extreme version of SS.
Dave: These ones you say are "consistent" are that, but to a radical extreme version of SS.
Adomnan: I agree, but I'm also trying to point out the inconsistency (and so invalidity) of Grubb's specific argument that one ought not pray to saints because it's "never sanctioned" in the Bible.
Of course, Grubb is welcome to make other arguments against prayer to the saints based on his reading of the Bible (and he has), but he can no longer consistently argue against invocation of the saints on the grounds that the Bible does not instruct us to do it, unless he's also prepared to reject prayer to the Holy Spirit as unbiblical.
It's always harder to defend a falsehood. That's why I don't envy these guys arguing against biblical truths in these cases.
but there ISN'T Biblical support for praying to heavenly saints, therefore it SHOULDN'T be done.
Didn't we already address the basic absurdity of this position, even apart from Adomnan's observation that you are only using it on an ad hoc basic? The Bible doesn't say we can drive cars or use computers either. Does that mean they are forbidden?
You say these things, but you don't really mean them. You are unprincipled, pulling this principle out like a trump card out when you don't like something and ignoring the same principle when it suits you. I don't know how we're supposed to argue against a position when you're not even going to respect basic logic and the law of non-contradiction. Might as well just say that you're going to be Protestant whether it makes any sense or not, which I think is very close to the truth.
The Father is God
Jesus is God
The Holy Spirit is God
Therefore prayers addressed to any and all of the three persons of the Trinity is valid; although the normal pattern is to address the Father in Jesus through the power of the Spirit.
But, Christians who have died and gone to heaven are not God; therefore all prayers to them are invalid. Therefore prayers to Mary and the saints is wrong. The RCC prayers to Mary are much more than just "asking her to pray for you." It is clear violation of 1 Tim. 2:5
Hang in there Grubb!
address the Father in Jesus through the power of the Spirit.
OOPPPS - address the Father in Jesus name through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Rev. Temple:
But, Christians who have died and gone to heaven are not God; therefore all prayers to them are invalid.
How does it follow from the fact that they are not God that prayers to them are invalid? How does it follow from the fact that there is only one Mediator between the divine and human natures that no one else can intercede for us? Is this game "I win because I say so?" That's not much fun for anyone else.
address the Father in Jesus name through the power of the Holy Spirit.
That's true, although you were more right the first time, in that we are actually in Christ Jesus through His consubstantiality with us.
Grubb:
I've been trying to construct what the best argument for your position would look like, and I came up with the following argument. You could argue that the ability to pray to God and worship God is a pure matter of grace that we have no ability to access outside of God's revelation. Therefore, anything pertaining to prayer or worship must only be what can be found in revelation. If it can't be found in the Bible, then it must be forbidden. This is because access to God is only through grace and divine condescension, and any attempt to gain such access outside of revealed channels would be an attempt to reach God through human effort outside of God's grace. Would it be a fair statement of your position that prayer and worship is a matter of grace and therefore cannot extend past what God has condescended to reveal?
Ken: Therefore prayers addressed to any and all of the three persons of the Trinity is valid; although the normal pattern is to address the Father in Jesus through the power of the Spirit.
Adomnan: As a sola scriptura believer, shouldn't you stick to "the normal pattern' in the Bible? Why should you resort to what you consider abnormal forms of prayer, nowhere taught in the Bible?
After all, Jesus gives us specific instructions on how to pray. Who are we to deviate from those instructions?
Certainly you wouldn't condemn someone who refused to pray to the Holy Spirit because it's not in Bible, would you? If so, on what grounds would you condemn them?
Would it be a fair statement of your position that prayer and worship is a matter of grace and therefore cannot extend past what God has condescended to reveal?
You need to understand where this goes. Is speaking in toungues a valid form of prayer or worship? What about electric guitars? Can they be used in worship? What about applause? Liturgical dance? Big screen videos?
If your default answer to questions about worship and prayer is "No" then you are going to be condemning a lot of protestant groups. Most protestants do believe in freedom of worship. That is that the form of worship is not mandated by God but is a matter of personal taste. Their position on icons, relics, and prayers to saints is and exception. If it was not a Catholic practice then many would likely say it was OK. Pretty much the only worship questions protestants are agreed on is that Catholic practices are bad.
You need to understand where this goes.
I am aware of where that road can end, but at this point, I just want to know the direction. What is it that makes prayer and worship different from other human activities in Grubb's mind? If it is that these activities are to be directed only to God personally, why? In thinking this over, there are not obvious answers to those questions in my mind, so I thought I should at least ask.
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