Dave,
Good ones....but I'm sure that all of the quotations have been taken out of context and you only have a few....oh wait, there are that many.
Have you written anything on the Joint Statement on Justification? I have not read the statement itself, but your work on this makes it seem that there is a larger disconnect here.
Thanks.
I haven't written directly on that, but I liked what I saw. I've always said that a sophisticated, historically conscious Lutheran or Reformed position on soteriology is a lot closer to us than a lot of people seem to realize.
It's the low church / Baptist strain that is truly a radical "faith alone" position (and "Bible alone" also).
Dave, how can you say our soteriology is closer to Protestant soteriology than most realize?
There are irreconcilable differences/distinctions, your final quotes showed that clearly. Issues like imputed righteousness, eternal security, attacking free-will, low-view of the sacraments, no judgment according to deeds, relaxed moral standards (eg divorce), etc are flatly un-Biblical and condemned by the Church...yet they are central themes in Protestantism.
I read the joint statement a while back and it basically said "we agree that we disagree" and listed "common ground" that was really not an issue and didnt really penetrate the surface.
Im not saying all Protestants are bad or have bad intentions, in fact I believe the average Protestant, if they were questioned, actually holds views closer to Catholicism and would be horrified to hear what the original "Reformers" actually advocated.
Big discussion; I'll have to refer you for now to my relevant papers. Mostly I mean that there is consensus in concrete, practical terms (as I have often observed): both sides believe in sola gratia, and the necessity of good works in the Christian life. Most of the discussions that take place on the general topic are far less useful than cooperation in fighting real social evils and our own ridiculous spats and dissensions in Christian circles, and the scandal that this causes in the world's eyes, thereby lessening evangelistic and apologetic success (as Jesus and Paul predicted).
I don't deny any real soteriological differences. You see me fighting against them in the very paper above this combox.
Dave:
I looked up your reference to Clement of Rome where he talks about being justified by "works not words," etc, and I was wodering what you thought of this statement of his just a few lines later:
"And so we, having been called through his will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves orthrough our own wisdom or understanding or piety or works which we have done in holiness of heart, but through faith, by which the almighty God has justified all who have existed from the beginning, to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen."
A verse earlier he says that all those "glorified and magnified" did not get that way by "the righteous actions which they did."
This seems to indicate exactly what Protestants believe...we are not jusfitied by works, but by faith. Your response? (please, no links! 
PS, the references there in Clement's 1st Letter to the Corinthians are 32:3-4.
Yes, of course. We are justified by God's grace, not by self-generated works. This is the patristic and Catholic understanding. The difference is that we do not pit works against faith, as if they were antithetical.
The point with the Clement quote is that Protestants would be very reluctant to express things in that way at all. But Paul does. James does, and Catholics do, because we understand (with Paul) that faith and works are not in intrinsic opposition to each other.
I'll be adding these passages you mention and some others to the post and my book, to give a fuller picture of Clement's views. They are entirely in accord with Catholic soteriology.
The Clement of Rome section has been greatly expanded, along with much humor in the "RPS" sections.
These citations are entire, just as they appear in the book, because of the complaints of "anonymous." Most in this paper are shortened as much as possible for the sake of brevity and concision, but most are considerably longer in the book itself, especially in later fathers, because their thought is more complex and developed.
The way the book is coming along, it looks like it will be well over 400 pages. But you'll be able to get it for only $1.36 as part of the 11 e-book package deal, or for $3.00 as a PDF file from Lulu. You can also buy it as a paperback for $16.95.
Great article, Dave! I loved the "Revised Protestant Standard" ["RPS"] readings. Everything dovetails perfectly with the Augustine sermons I’ve been perusing lately.
And speaking of…. Here’s a few more quotes from Augustine, just for good measure.
From the Works of Saint Augustine, A Translation for the 21st Century:
This first quote shows, I think, what a keen sense Augustine had of the profound importance of his office as shepherd of souls.
“[God] terrifies me, he doesn’t allow me to keep quiet. He demands of me what he has given me. He has given it to me, after all, to spend, not to save.” -- Sermons on the New Testament, Serm.125:8:1, vol. 4, pt. 3, p. 259, ISBN 1565480007 http://www.amazon.com/Sermons-94...e/dp/
1565480007
These quotes show Augustine’s very explicit teaching on the necessity of faith and good works in order to enter into eternal life.
“Don’t worry brothers and sisters; you will receive. Ask, seek, knock, you will receive, you will find, the door will be opened to you. Only don’t ask, see, and knock just with your voices, but also with your morals; do good works, without which you certainly have no business to lead in this life. Wipe out you sins by daily good works.” -- Sermons on the New Testament (51-94), --- Sermon 77B:7:1, ISBN 0911782850 http://thumbsnap.com/v/HW07cO3o.jpg
http://books.google.com/books?as...F-8&sa=N&
tab=wp
“Hope in him, you whole assembly of the new commons, you, a people being born, which the Lord has made. Strive to be brought forth in health, not fatally aborted. Look, mother Church is in labor, see, she is groaning in travail to give birth to you, to bring you forth into the light of faith. Do not agitate her maternal womb with your impatience, and thus constrict the passage to your delivery.” -- Sermon 216: 7:2, ‘TO THE COMPETENTES’
“In that life, which we are now toiling away to earn our rest in, which Truth promises to give us after the death of this body or even after the end of this world, we are never going to sleep, just as we are never, of course, going to die.”
-- Sermon 221:3:1, ‘ON THE HOLY NIGHT.’ Date, about 400.
“There are debts; that’s a general statement, and we never stop getting into debt. We admit that we need to be forgiven every day; but we ought not, for that reason, to relax comfortably in shameful behavior, in misdeeds and crimes, as though we had nothing to worry about.” -- Sermon 229E: 3,
“This is what defines our faith, the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. You can live, provided you live; that is, you can live for ever, provided you live a good life. Don’t be afraid of dying a bad death; be afraid indeed, but of living a bad life. What astonishing perversity! Yo
cont...
“This is what defines our faith, the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. You can live, provided you live; that is, you can live for ever, provided you live a good life. Don’t be afraid of dying a bad death; be afraid indeed, but of living a bad life. What astonishing perversity! You are all afraid of what none of you can escape, and you don’t do what you certainly can do. To avoid dying, you can do nothing; to live a good life, this you can do. Do what you can do, and you will have no reason to fear what you can’t do.” -- Sermon 229H:3, Preached on the Tuesday after Easter. Date: after 412 A. D.
“But if you want to attain to a life that is everlasting and blissful, have a temporal life that is good.” It’s good in its work, it’ll be good in it’s reward. But if you refuse to do the work, how can you have the face to seek the reward? If you can’t say to Christ, ‘I have done what you commanded, ‘how will you have the nerve to say, ‘Pay me what you promised?’” -- Sermon 229H:3:5, p. 298.
Sermons (184-229) ISBN 1565480503 http://www.amazon.com/Sermons-18...e/dp/
1565480503
Strangest sounding 'Calvinist' I ever heard in my life!
Excellent, thanks!
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