Overall great work.
As I read I was reminded of the fact we have Guardian Angels in a sort of "reporting back" to the Father role (eg Mat 18:10). It is not a leap to say this angel responds to our pleas for help, even if we dont realize they are there.
An other relevant passage: Luke 16:19-31 is a goldmine for the dead saints (in this case Abraham) being aware of what is going on and able to intercede.
I cant wait until White addresses Rev 5:8; 8:3-5 and 6:9...that is IF "time permits" (but I wont hold my breath given the quality of this recent "critique").
On a side note, the picture of the statues of the Pretend Reformers I notice the letters IHS which I knew had something to do with Christ and after googling it found out is the first three letter of the name Jesus in Greek (Iesous) , so that was pretty cool to learn. And to stray completely off the topic (what do you expect after reading anti-Catholic "reviews"?) I learned that the variation to IHS which is JHC is what led to the ridiculous and offensive "Jesus H Christ"...back on topic!
"As a result of the Fall, Heaven was CLOSED against men.” However, through Christ, the “KINGDOM OF HEAVEN” ( and thus the COMMUNION OF SAINTS) has been RESTORED!
And Christ’s final command to his apostles was to preach kingdom of heaven i.e., preach Christ and his saints.
This is because the "kingdom of heaven" inasmuch as it is a “kingdom,” includes the inhabitants!
http://www.biblestudytools.net/L...932&
version=kjv
“But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: FOR OF SUCH IS THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.” Matt. 10:14
“And this gospel OF THE KINGDOM shall be preached in all the world” Matt. 24:14
"Amen, I say to you, wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, THAT ALSO which she hath done SHALL BE TOLD FOR A MEMORIAL OF HER." Mark 14:9
"Timotheus came from you unto us, and brought us good tidings (euaggelizo) of your faith and charity" 1 Thess. 3:6.
Euaggelizo = same word used of the "good news" of the Gospel! Thus there is a "good news" of the saints "faith and love," a kind of "gospel" in and of itself!
http://www.biblestudytools.net/L...097&
version=kjv
As rightful members, WE NOW HAVE ACCESS TO, AND COMMUNION WITH, OUR heavenly kingdom!
“And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom” Mark 15:38
http://www.biblestudytools.net/L...665&
version=kjv
“heaven was opened” Luke 3:21
And saw heaven opened” Acts 10:11
“Hereafter ye shall see heaven open.” John 1:51
“After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven.” Rev. 4:1
“And the temple of God was opened in heaven” Rev. 11:19
“…the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened” Rev. 15:5
“And I saw heaven opened” Rev. 19:11
Moreover, the Saints (Christ’s body), REIGN WITH HIM! There is no “DIVISION IN THE BODY, but now, only “EQUAL CONCERN FOR EACH OTHER.” (1COR. 12:25)
“Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be HANDED OVER TO THE SAINTS, the people of the Most High.” Daniel 7:27
“We shall also REIGN WITH HIM” 2 Timothy 2:12
http://www.biblestudytools.net/L...821&
version=kjv
“To him that overcometh will I grant to SIT WITH ME in my throne, EVEN AS I ALSO OVERCAME, and am SET DOWN WITH MY FATHER in his throne.” Rev. 3:21
“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them…and they lived and REIGNED WITH CHRIST a thousand years.”
http://www.biblestudytools.net/L...362&
version=kjv
Heaven is family. But where there is no COMMUNION, there is neither heaven nor family.
Alas, there are those who not only refuse “TO WELCOME THE BROTHERS,” but even cast those who do " OUT OF THE CHURCH.” 1John 1:10
Dave, As far as I see it, there are three reasons that prayer asking Saints in heaven to intercede for us is right and proper:
1) The scriptural arguments that you make.
2) The witness of the Church fathers (starting with St. Justin Martyr and Origen) as well as the earliest of the liturgies which all have intercessory prayer in them.
3) All of the thousands of documented miracles throughout history that occur because of intercessory prayer. I mean, if intercessory prayers are so inherently wrong and downright evil as White portrays why does God choose to answer so many of them?
In reading his critique, I was struck by twothings. One, he still misapprehends the purpose of your book. Two, I am amazed how factually challenged White's argument against praying to saints is. Perhaps if he would have become a lawyer like John Calvin, he would have known of the axiom, "Contra factum non valet ulla argumentio."
I have no interesting on getting into a discussion/debate on Catholic doctrine on these issues. But I´ve been to Geneva, and those statues of Calvin in company are pretty impressive. The park in which they are situated is nice as well, and overall Geneva is a nice city.
Of course, having statues of four of the leading founders of the Reformed tradition smack in the middle of Geneva is pretty ironic considering the Reformed tradition´s iconoclasm. Maybe White forgot that those statues probably make Calvin spin in his grave. But then again, so too would the doctrines of the Reformed Baptists.
I can see how this could get very repetitive. He is always talking about how long your writing is. Now he reviews some very concise arguments and complains that you are not providing enough details. He wants the protestant objections to be better stated, which basically means longer. Then he wants all the scripture behind the Catholic position explained in full, again meaning longer. When you do provide the longer version he ignores it because he does not want to get into a written debate.
You just have to assume that people are paying attention and if they are reading both blogs they will see all White's objections are dealt with. Hopefully this will mean more sales or your book. They say there is no such thing as bad publicity.
Dave, didnt you mention that praying to saints in heaven just has a very very long history going back to the first centuries of christianity?
I remember seeing once a roman tombstone of a little girl who had died, which had a message written by the parents asking the little girl to pray for them.
Thanks to all for the wonderful comments. I have a lot less time now to write, having begun a new full-time job today to help our financial situation. But I'll do my best. I'll only have maybe 3 hours a day on weekdays (after my family goes to bed) and more on weekends as necessary. But I'll have more need for rest on the weekends too.
Note that I have added (at the top of the post) White's completely ridiculous response to my humor in posting the four statues photo. He thinks I intended that tweaking as a serious argument! LOL
The second half of his "reply" is posted at the end of my paper above. It's probably all we'll get from him. He'll just move on to the next topic where he thinks he can exercise sophistry and breezily dismiss my argument yet again.
It's good to hear that your financial circumstances are, God willing, going to be improving. I suspect that any time lost to work will be compensated by having the problem of money less pressing on your mind 
God bless you.
Excellent Post Dave!
"Let's examine this argumentation. First, the objection would be based upon a lack of biblical evidence, along with the positive biblical prohibition against contact with the dead."
Acts chapter 9
36 And in Joppe there was a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas. This woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.
37 And it came to pass in those days that she was sick, and died. Whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber.
38 And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppe, the disciples hearing that Peter was there, sent unto him two men, desiring him that he would not be slack to come unto them.
39 And Peter rising up, went with them. And when he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber. And all the widows stood about him weeping, and shewing him the coats and garments which Dorcas made them.
40 And they all being put forth, Peter kneeling down prayed, and turning to the body, he said: Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes; and seeing Peter, she sat up.
Seems that Peter is not aware of "the positive biblical prohibition against contact with the dead"
Gilbert
I have a question for Dave or anyone to answer. Dave said: The correct description is "asking saints to pray, or intercede for us. They, in turn, go to God, Who answers the prayer (or doesn't, as the case may be, if His answer is "No"!).
When I pray to saints I pray for them to literally do whatever I'm asking for, not to go have a meeting with God and mull it over (unless I'm specifically asking for their prayers or intercession). But I do this knowing that the reason they can answer my prayer is that they're alive in Christ. All that they do is through the divine power of God; because they are in heaven they can't do anything God doesn't will them to do.
For example, if you're at work and a customer or co-worker asks you to do something you don't go running to the boss to check with him unless its something really big or unique. In most circumstances you already know what you're supposed to do and you go do it.
That's how I see saints. Is this in line with Catholic teaching?
As long as you understand that any power from these saints is from God (as you indicated anyway), then you're okay. It is God Who grants the requests through His power.
Say you ask a saint for a miracle of healing. They can only bring this miracle about by interceding with God. Otherwise, why bother asking them in the first place? God performs the miracle. So it is a choice between us asking God for the miracle, or a saint. Since the Bible teaches that more righteous people have more powerful prayers, then it is better to ask them to pray.
But because these saints have much power, too, Catholics speak the language of "obtain for us". Even that, however, means "please obtain for us from God . . ." And that goes back to the "intercessory principle" of James 5:16-18.
Warning-another long comment from someone who should get his own blog...
From James White’s blog entry “A Quick Example of Armstrong’s Argumentation: “I mean, if prayer, an act of worship in Scripture, is to be offered to anyone but God, surely there will be overwhelming evidence found in the normative practice of the Christian church, and in the writings of the early leaders of that church, the New Testament.”
Aside from the scriptural evidence that Dave has supplied us that demonstrate that intercessory prayer is proper (as well the testimony of several passages in books of the Bible that Mr. White rejects as non-canonical) the most obvious retort to this bit of sophistry is that the early Christians didn’t need to pray to a saint in heaven because the apostles (at least most of them) weren’t dead at the time that the books of the NT were being composed. Since Hebrews and Revelations were among the last books of the NT to be written, they would be the books that most likely contain references to the Catholic doctrine of prayer to saints which- lo and behold-Dave shows are there.
From James White’s blog entry continued: “You will remember that back in the days of the Reformation a common complaint made by the Reformers was that Rome's defenders were sophists, men who tried to look wise while promoting the most amazingly incoherent statements.”
An abbreviated internet tiptoeing through the early history of the Church reveals the following incoherent sophists of Rome that James White must be referring to:
St. Gregory Thaumaturgus “aka the Wonder Worker for those who do not read Greek like James White does ” [213-275(?)]
St. Gregory was a pupil of Origen and the first recorded recipient of a visitation by the Blessed Virgin Mary who, during that appearance, who explained to him that God asked her to appear to him and help him understand the nature of the Holy Trinity. Not only did the Mother of Our Savior appear to St. Gregory, but she further directed St. John the Evangelist to proceed to teach him the nature of the Holy Trinity. The following Creed (the precursor of the Nicene Creed) is what was dictated:
There is one God, the Father of the living Word, who is His subsistent Wisdom and Power and Eternal Image: perfect Begetter of the perfect Begotten, Father of the only-begotten Son.
There is one Lord, Only of the Only, God of God, Image and Likeness of Deity, Efficient Word, Wisdom comprehensive of the constitution of all things, and Power formative of the whole creation, true Son of true Father, Invisible of Invisible, and Incorruptible of Incorruptible, and Immortal of Immortal and Eternal of Eternal.
And there is One Holy Spirit, having His subsistence from God, and being made manifest by the Son, to wit to men: Image of the Son, Perfect Image of the Perfect; Life, the Cause of the living; Holy Fount; Sanctity, the Supplier, or Leader, of Sanctification; in whom is manifested God the Father, who is above
all and in all, and God the Son, who is through all.
There is a perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty, neither divided nor estranged. Wherefore there is nothing either created or in servitude in the Trinity; nor anything superinduced, as if at some former period it was non-existent, and at some later period it was introduced. And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abideth ever.
Not bad for a couple of dead saints who under James White’s Reformed tradition of the elders could not possibly communicate with, be concerned about, or even take notice of us poor totally depraved worms on earth.
St. Clement of Rome (a disciple of both St. Peter and St. Paul themselves and who is mentioned in Phil. 4:3)
“Let us then also pray for those who have fallen into any sin, that meekness and humility may be given to them, so that they may submit, not unto us, but to the will of God. For in this way they shall secure a fruitful and perfect remembrance from us, with sympathy for them, both in our prayers to God, and our mention of them to the saints.” From: Letter to Corinthians (cir. 100 AD) (emphasis added)
St. Justin Martyr
“And that which was said out of the bush to Moses, "I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and the God of your fathers," Exodus 3:6 this signified that they, even though dead, are yet in existence, and are men belonging to Christ Himself. For they were the first of all men to busy themselves in the search after God; Abraham being the father of Isaac, and Isaac of Jacob, as Moses wrote.” From: The First Apology
St. Hippolytus of Rome
“And when He had taken the book, the four beasts and four-and-twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having harps and golden vials full of incense, which is the prayers of the saints.” From, Fragments from Commentaries on Various Books of Scripture.
“But we who hope for the Son of God are persecuted and trodden down by those unbelievers. For the wings of the vessels are the churches; and the sea is the world, in which the Church is set, like a ship tossed in the deep, but not destroyed; for she has with her the skilled Pilot, Christ. And she bears in her midst also the trophy (which is erected) over death; for she carries with her the cross of the Lord. For her prow is the east, and her stern is the west, and her hold is the south, and her tillers are the two Testaments; and the ropes that stretch around her are the love of Christ, which binds the Church; and the net which she bears with her is the layer of the regeneration which renews the believing, whence too are these glories. As the wind the Spirit from heaven is present, by whom those who believe are sealed: she has also anchors of iron accompanying her, viz., the holy commandments of Christ Himself, which are strong as iron. She has also mariners on the right and on the left, assessors like the holy angels, by whom the Church is always governed and defended. The ladder in her leading up to the sailyard is an emblem of the passion of Christ, which brings the faithful to the ascent of heaven. And the top-sails aloft upon the yard are the company of prophets, martyrs, and apostles, who have entered into their rest in the kingdom of Christ.” (Emphasis Added.) From: Treatise on Christ and the Anti-Christ
St. Ephrem of Syria
“You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord Himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us that so we may love Him.” From Commentary on the Gospel of St. Mark
St. Cyprian of Carthage:
“Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of life and death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy.” Letters 56[60]:5
From the Liturgy of St. Adaeus and St. Marus
“O mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, beseech for me the only-begotten Son, who was born of you, to forgive me my offences and my sins, and to accept from my feeble and sinful hands this sacrifice which my weakness offers upon this altar, through your intercession for me, O holy mother.”
St. Cyril of Jerusalem
"We then commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, martyrs, that God, by their prayers and intercessions, may receive our petitions" From: Catechical Lecture, v, n. 9 in P. G., XXXIII.
St. Athanasius (Remember this is the church father who Mr. White contends proves that the early Church subscribed to the notion of sola scriptura)
“It becomes you to be mindful of us, as you stand near him who granted you all graces, for you are the Mother of God and our Queen. Help us for the sake of the King, the Lord God and Master who was born of you. For this reason, you are called full of grace. Remember us, most holy Virgin, and bestow on us gifts from the riches of your graces, Virgin full of graces.” Prayer to Mary, Mother of Grace
St. John Chrysotom
“Hail, O Mother! Virgin, heaven, throne, glory of our Church, its foundation and ornament. Earnestly pray for us to Jesus, your Son and Our Lord, that through your intercession we may have mercy on the day of judgment. Pray that we may receive all those good things which are reserved for those who love God. Through the grace and favor of Our Lord, Jesus Christ, to whom, with the Father and the Holy Spirit, be power, honor, and glory, now and forever. Amen.”
A Prayer attributed to the saint.
In the Liturgy of St. John Chrysotom
“We thank Thee, O Master who lovest mankind, Benefactor of our souls, that Thou hast made us worthy this day of Thy heavenly and immortal mysteries. Make straight our path; strengthen us all in Thy fear; guard our life; make firm our steps; through the prayers and intercessions of the glorious Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary, and of all Thy saints.”
St. Jerome
“If the Apostles and Martyrs, while still in the body, can pray for others, at a time when they must still be anxious for themselves, how much more after their crowns, victories, and triumphs are won! One man, Moses, obtains from God pardon for six hundred thousand men in arms; and Stephen, the imitator of the Lord, and the first martyr in Christ, begs forgiveness for his persecutors; and shall their power be less after having begun to be with Christ? The Apostle Paul declares that two hundred three score and sixteen souls, sailing with him, were freely given him; and, after he is dissolved and has begun to be with Christ, shall he close his lips, and not be able to utter a word in behalf of those who throughout the whole world believed at his preaching of the Gospel? And shall the living dog Vigilantius be better than that dead lion? I should be right in saying so after Ecclesiastes, if I admitted that Paul is dead in spirit. The truth is that the saints are not called dead, but are said to be asleep. Wherefore Lazarus, who was about to rise again, is said to have slept. And the Apostle forbids the Thessalonians to be sorry for those who were asleep.” From: "Contra Vigilant.", n. 6, in P. L., XXIII, 344.
St. Augustine of Hippo
“At the Lord's table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps”. From Homilies on St. John No. 84.
"As to our paying honor to the memory of the martyrs, and the accusation of Faustus, that we worship them instead of idols, I should not care to answer such a charge, were it not for the sake of showing how Faustus, in his desire to cast reproach on us, has overstepped the Manichaean inventions, and has fallen heedlessly into a popular notion found in Pagan poetry, although he is so anxious to be distinguished from the Pagans. For in saying that we have turned the idols into martyrs, be speaks of our worshiping them with similar rites, and appeasing the shades of the departed with wine and food…It is true that Christians pay religious honor to the memory of the martyrs, both to excite us to imitate them and to obtain a share in their merits, and the assistance of their prayers. But we build altars not to any martyr, but to the God of martyrs, although it is to the memory of the martyrs. No one officiating at the altar in the saints' burying-place ever says, We bring an offering to thee, O Peter! or O Paul! or O Cyprian! The offering is made to God, who gave the crown of martyrdom, while it is in memory of those thus crowned. The emotion is increased by the associations of the place, and. love is excited both towards those who are our examples, and towards Him by whose help we may follow such examples. We regard the martyrs with the same affectionate intimacy that we feel towards holy men of God in this life, when we know that their hearts are prepared to endure the same suffering for the truth of the gospel. There is more devotion in our feeling towards the martyrs, because we know that their conflict is over; and we can speak with greater confidence in praise of those already victors in heaven, than of those still combating here.” Against Faustus, 20:21 (A.D. 400).
I don’t know James, a comparison of Dave Armstrong’s arguments on the propriety of intercessory prayer look an awful lot like the arguments these guys made 1500-1900 years ago. But then again, what do any of them know? None of them got their doctorate from the Columbia Evangelical Seminary. And their contentions are probably just as specious in your mind because they didn’t parse any Greek words either. So what if Clement knew Peter and Paul–he must of missed one of their lectures on the futility of praying to saints. And Gregory the wonder worker–he must have been speaking metaphorically when he said that the Mother of our Lord and St. John the Evangelist appeared to him. And geez, what about those two guys-Jerome and that Chrysotom feller? I bet they didn’t know Greek as well as you do. And the worst of them is those proto-Protestants, Athanasius and Augustine. How could they get it so wrong believing in sola scriptura and all?
Virgin venerated throughout the world,
Mother dear to the human race,
Woman, marvel of the angels,
Mary, most holy.
By your blessed virginity you have made all integrity sacred,
and by your glorious child-bearing
you have brought salvation to all fruitfulness.
Great Lady,
to you the joyous company of the saints gives thanks;
to you the fearful crowd of the accused flee;
and to you, Lady of might and mercy,
I flee, a sinner every way, beyond measure distressed.
Lady, it seems to me as if I were already
before the all-powerful justice of the stern judge
facing the intolerable vehemence of his wrath,
while hanging over me is the enormity of my sins,
and the huge torments they deserve.
Most gentle Lady,
whose intercession should I implore
when I am troubled with horror, and shake with fear,
but hers, whose womb embraced
the reconciliation of the world?
Whence should I most surely hope for help quickly in need,
but from her whence I know came the world’s propitiation?
Who can more easily gain pardon for the accused
by her intercession,
than she who gave milk to him
who justly punishes or mercifully pardons all and each one?
The last entry was an excerpt of a prayer written by St. Anselm (the writer of Pros Apologian) to Mary. He wrote three of them-each one longer than the last. I guess the author of James White's mission statement on his blog got things wrong too.
As long as you understand that any power from these saints is from God (as you indicated anyway), then you're okay. It is God Who grants the requests through His power.
Thanks Dave, I guess this is kind of one example of the flexibility of Catholicism. We don't know exactly how saints answer prayers, but as long as we understand that their answers ultimately come from God we're free to imagine our own version of how it happens.
What I don't get is if I ask one of my Protestant in-laws to watch my dog while I'm away, she won't make me first explain to her that it's God who created us and keeps us alive and that if she decides to perform this small act of charity it is only, at the very least, by God's permissive will that she does it. But if I tell her I'm also praying to St. Francis to keep my dog company so he won't miss me while I'm away, then I have to give a dissertation to prove I'm not worshiping saints.
We both believe that saints are alive, not dead, and that heaven isn't an eternal club med, but that the saints live to serve God and work to bring about His Kingdom. Is it so hard to see the connection between the Church Militant and the Church Triumphant?
In the NT, there are various words for “prayer.” But these do not necessarily imply “worship.”
Consider for example, the word Deesis, often translated as “prayer.” Strong's Concordance defines it as “a seeking, asking, entreating, entreaty to God OR TO MAN.”
http://www.biblestudytools.net/L...162&
version=kjv
And consider the how the word deomai, another of several Greek NT words for “prayer," is used.
“But I have prayed (deomai) for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. Luke 22:32
Christ offers “prayer” for Peter’s faith. Yet this same Greek word Christ uses for prayer to God, (deomai), is used elsewhere in the NT for "prayer" to man.
“And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray (deomai) thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?” Acts 8:34
“But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech (deomai) thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.”
“Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech (deomai) you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.” 2 Corinthians 5:20
And notice what Paul says here:
“…God did beseech you by us?”
Was Paul saying God was “praying” to the Corinthians? Of Course not!
“Brethren, I beseech (deomai) you, be as I am.” Galatians 4:12
Is the holy apostle here “praying” to the Galatians? Again, of course not! It’s just a matter of understanding the biblical language.
http://www.biblestudytools.net/L...189&
version=kjv
http://www.biblestudytools.net/L...eng&
submit=Find
And while on the subject of Biblical language, I’d like to recommend a book which I found to be an extremely interesting and useful introduction to that “oriental manner of speech” which permeates both the Old and the New Testaments. Entitled “The Syrian Christ” (1916), it was written by Abraham Mitrie Rihbany, a man who was originally “a Syrian youth, the penniless son of a stonemason of the province of Mount Lebanon.”
As to the value of this work, I wholeheartedly concur with the opinion of one reviewer who stated that the effect of Rihbany’s work “will be in many instances to give readers such a new understanding of the Bible as to make it a new book.” http://books.google.com/books?as..._maxy=&
as_isbn=
http://thumbsnap.com/v/cRzXy7jx.jpg
http://books.google.com/books?id...rist%
22#PPR3,M1
Hey guys,
I've asked the question before but have never gotten a good response. If praying to heavenly saints is such a good idea, why didn't anyone do it until around the end of the 1st century? Moses, Elijah, David, Solomon, Stephen, and James were all with God at that point and perfected, yet we don't see one instance of anyone in the NT praying to them. Nor do we see a single instance of anyone praying to an angel in the OT or NT.
Even the first century church didn't start out praying TO heavenly saints, they started out praying FOR heavenly saints. Then one of the ECFs decided that we needed the heavenly saints' prayers more than they needed ours, but that was after the Apostles had passed away. This wasn't Apostolic Tradition being passed on, it was new tradition being made up.
There were plenty of heavenly saints when Peter, Paul, John, and the others were around, yet they NEVER prayed to them. Why not?
.
Grubb,
I guess the quick response is how do you know? You assume the apostles never prayed to heavenly saints. Why sould we assume that? Revelation was written by John. It makes reference to the prayers of the saints. So at least one apostle did not find that idea strange. Many of the other apostles were martyred earlier so their lack of recorded support is less surprising. As they say, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Randy,
The prayers of the saints John refers to in Revelation are prayers of earthly saints. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." Is that really the best defense? I'm thinking something as dangerous as worshipping something other than God (which is what praying to heavenly saints and angels can lead to) should have a much more solid defense than that, don't you?
Absence of evidence combined with "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (I Tim 2:5) is a pretty good defense for NOT praying to saints.
I specifically mentioned John and Peter as never having done it, because both lived long enough to see many martyrs, yet neither ever encouraged us to pray to anyone but God/Jesus. Plus, Moses, David, Solomon, and Elijah were all presumed to be heavenly saints, yet none of the Apostles ever thought it wise to pray to them or teach us to do so.
"Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence" isn't enough to refute what seems to be so clear in I Tim 2:5. Sorry.
.
1 Tim 2:5 would be a good arguement to make if it wasn't for the fact several concordances define the word mediator as a mediation of covenants and not a general prohibition against mediation. As far as I can tell, 1 Tim 2:5 wasn't used as a prooftext against the communion of the saints until the reformation as the Eastern Orthodox also practice praying to the saints.
Grubb,
This seems to be a major sticking point with you. It wasn't for me. It is just so natural to see saints as helpful memebers of God's family. The fact that protestant spirituality has such a lack of emphasis on the saints is a major area weakness. Today is the feast day of St Thomas More. Do you think connecting with his story might influence how you think about divorce?
The prayers of the saints John refers to in Revelation are prayers of earthly saints.
So we don't have absence of evidence but just absence of evidence Grubb is willing to accept. It seems weaker all the time.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." Is that really the best defense?
I could assume you don't play tennis because I have no evidence that you play tennis. Is that logical? Unless I had talked about tennis with you I don't think it would be. Same thing here. Unless we have an apostle addressing the question we just don't know what they think. Their thinking influenced tradition and tradition did embrace the intercession of saints so we have that.
I'm thinking something as dangerous as worshipping something other than God (which is what praying to heavenly saints and angels can lead to) should have a much more solid defense than that, don't you?
I would not agree that it is dangerous. The danger is largely in protestant imaginations. I understand because I imagined such dangers once as well. I just havn't seen it. It is mostly myth.
Absence of evidence combined with "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (I Tim 2:5) is a pretty good defense for NOT praying to saints.
No, but you can keep working on it! Like Justin pointed out, Paul is not talking about intercession in 1 Tim 2 so using it that way is a big stretch. Paul is saying how God wants all men to be saved and the only way they get saved is through Jesus. He is not forbidding certain prayer disciplines. It just isn't there.
I specifically mentioned John and Peter as never having done it, because both lived long enough to see many martyrs, yet neither ever encouraged us to pray to anyone but God/Jesus. Plus, Moses, David, Solomon, and Elijah were all presumed to be heavenly saints, yet none of the Apostles ever thought it wise to pray to them or teach us to do so.
Again you are talking about a limited number of writings that we have from these guys. None of them address the topic at hand (except for the positve references from John in Revelation that you assume must have been talking about something else).
"Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence" isn't enough to refute what seems to be so clear in I Tim 2:5. Sorry.
Seems clear to you. Like I said, you seem to have a strong dislike for the practice. Is it really based on scripture or is there more behind it? You keep repeating the same scripture no matter how many times it gets refuted.
Grub, you just answered your own question in your last response:
The prayers of the saints John refers to in Revelation are prayers of earthly saints.
Yes, you are correct, the term "saints" in Rev 5:8 is in reference to Christians alive on earth, that is the point...now, look at the verse again with that in mind,
Rev 5:8
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Notice the Elders, they are not God, yet they hold and offer up the prayers of the "saints (on earth)". This is precisely what Catholics understand when we ask the intercession of the Heavenly Saints (eg Elders), our prayers in essence go through the Elders (Heavenly saints) to God.
Grubb, contrary to what you are saying-there are references in both the OT and the NT about the veneration of the saints as well as angels
Jos. 5:14, Dan. 8:17, Tob. 12:16-veneration of angels
2 Mac. 15:11-16–Onias and Jeremiah praying in heaven for the people of Israel
Jer. 15:1–Moses and Samuel appeared before God to intercede
Tob. 12:12–Angel Raphael brought the prayers of Tobit and Sarah and presented them to God
Rev. 5:8, 8:3–prayers of the saints offered up
Luke 16: 19-31–In the story of Lazarus, Dives prays to Abraham to intercede on behalf of his family on earth. This does not have the flavor of a parable, but instead appears to be an account of an actual event.
Matt. 22:23-32– Jesus said God is the God of the living not the dead
Matt. 17:1-13, Mark 9:1-13, Luke 9:28-36 At our Lord’s transfiguration-Jesus talks to Elijah and Moses and then Peter wanted to put up three tabernacles to honor them.
Matt. 18:10 shows the existence of guardian angels who interact with God on our behalf.
Gen. 5:24; Heb. 11:5-Enoch taken up to heaven alive
2 Kings 2:11-13--Elijah taken up to heaven alive in the chariot. From the Passion accounts, one can deduce that the Jews who believed in the prophesy of the Messiah believed that Elijah was going to return.
Thus extending the Protestant objection to its logical conclusion, if asking our “live” neighbors to pray for us is ok, and asking a “dead” saint to pray for us is bad, then the Protestant should not take exception if one asked Elijah, Enoch and for us Catholics the EBV Mary, to pray for us because they never died, but were assumed into heaven alive.
I would agree that the NT does not contain an explicit account of a living person praying for a dead saint’s intercession, but this begs the question, because Catholics, the Orthodox and those belonging to the Church of the East do not believe that the saints are “dead.” I guess the bottom line is that this matter is a question of faith. Either one has faith in Our Lord that He set up a Church on this earth that can not teach error or one chooses to exercise a skeptic’s faith and rely on his own discernment. Fortunately for us Catholics we have the witness of the first Christians as well. Starting with Clement who was both the disciple of SS. Peter and Paul, the Church practiced requesting saints who died to intercede for us. It is one of the practices that the Church fathers uniformly believed in and practiced. Against this show of orthodoxy, the only people up to the time that the reformers came on the scene that did not believe in intercessory prayer to the saints were heretics such as the Arians and the Manichees. And based on your posts, I would never insult you and suggest that you are one of those guys. Finally, we have the witness of the thousands of miracles in the lives of Christians whose prayers requesting saints and Mary to intercede for them were granted. Against the weight of this evidence
and the testimony of the witnesses presented above, James White with a Greek lectionary and some dead skeptical Protestant reformers are hardly convincing.
BTW, I do agree that there are some Catholics who may engage in excess when it comes to the practice of asking saints to intercede, but one could say the same about some Protestants who worship the words of the Bible, and ignore God's message of love contained in it.
God bless!
How do you know the physically dead saints of God are able to hear these requests for intercession?
It seems to me that these dead saints on some level would have to be omnipresent or omnisicient or all-powerful (sorry don't know the "omni" word here) in order for one to be confident these requests for intercession are heard and followed up on..(if not "omni" then at least have a whole lot more capabilities in these areas than they have on earth). At any rate I don't know that God might have a more important assignment for St. Michael than to help me find something that I misplaced.
Anyway I have always thought that these Scriptures in Revelations more likely are prayers directed towards God that in heaven are somehow routed to the saints. There is an awful lot that I don't know in regards to how heaven operates.
At any rate, I feel quite confident that if a physically dead saint of God is supposed to be praying for a request of mine, that this request will somehow get to this saint, even if it is not initially directed to him.
strike lectionary and replace with lexicon...
Rob, don't think of things temporally. The saints are no longer in time but are outside of that constraint like God was, is, and always will be.
~Paul H.
Paul:
I actually have given this issue a little thought. As with several issues, I think the typical Protestant objections are somewhat overstated. But at the same time, the idea of asking someone who is physically dead to be a type of heavenly prayer partner for me makes me feel uncomfortable.
As I have analyzed it, I think it comes down to the fact that I just don't know what the limitations of those in heaven are. I know of only one that is all(powerful, knowing, present). I know that the dead saints, not being God, do not have these attributes. At the same time I do know that many of the constraints of earthly existence are lifted in heaven. But I just don't know what their current constraints are.
So I have no way of knowing whether Mary is even capable of hearing the millions of requests to be a heavenly prayer partner, and lifting them all up, or not. Gosh, I don't even know if God might have a more important assignment for her than my requests anyway. Maybe Mary spends her time interceding that God can somehow break through the Muslim world or something like that.
What I do know is that if somehow Mary is supposed to be praying for a request of mine, somehow heaven will make that happen.
Some points to keep in mind:
1.The Church does not require “prayer” to the saints; She does however countenance it.
2. Merely talking to God does not constitute “worship.” For even Satan and his angels talk to God. Yet that would hardly be considered “worship.” True worship therefore must involve something more than just the mere act of speaking to the saints.
3. A clear distinction needs to be made between REDEMPTIVE and NON-REDEMPTIVE (petitionary) mediators.
“The prayers of Mary, like the prayers of all the saints, go through "the" mediator of prayer, Christ. In Acts 4:12, 1 Timothy 2:5, and Hebrew 7:25 we read that Christ is the only mediator between God and man; however, these verses describe Christ as the redemptive mediator. Mary is a non-redemptive mediator, which means that her mediation is only petitionary like all other saints in heaven or on earth.”
http://churchofchrist.grigaitis....th/
mary_st.html
4. Scripture explicitly teaches that there is at least one man to whom we may pray viz, “the MAN Christ Jesus.” 1 Timothy 2:5
Interestingly, Christ’s mediation is here mentioned in the context of his humanity, rather than his divinity! Christ the God-man unites the divine and the human to effect man’s salvation!
You know, Protestants who constantly accuse Catholics of being “unbiblical” and “legalistic” should, if they would be consistent, also level the same charges against their own “reformers." Consider a couple of quick examples of "life" under “Master Calvin."
"They punished with imprisonment the lady who arranged her hair with too much coquetry (the ministers were to judge), and even her chambermaid who assisted at her toilet; the merchant who played at cards, the peasant who spoke too harshly to his beast, and the citizen who had not extinguished his lamp at the hour appointed by law.”
“ALL WERE ORDERED TO EAT MEAT ON FRIDAYS AND SATURDAYS, under penalty of imprisonment.”
Source:The history of the Protestant reformation by Martin J. Spalding, vol. 2:378-379
http://www.archive.org/details/
h...rmati01spaluoft
And yet the wonderful communion of saints is called -- wicked!! Go figure.
White has issued an additional "reply" but there is so little here, I won't even bother citing the words, let alone responding to it, and will wait for his next "review" of my book:
http://www.aomin.org/index.php?i...php?
itemid=2070
I find his recent "review" laughable, especially this comment:
Where is the evidence that these souls have knowledge of current events on earth?....They are not aware of events on earth;
Yet here is what the saints themselves say:
How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?
How can they not know what is going on on earth with a question like this? Why would they be asking such a question if they didnt know what was going on? That is total arrogance for the saints to talk to God like that if they are "in the dark" on what is going on on earth.
See! Luther wasn't adverse to calling on saints!
“For goodness sake, pray the Pater Noster at least once against the Papacy, that St. Valentine may grab it by the neck!”
Letter to Casper Müller, Jan. 19, 1536. Luther's Works, vol. 50, (Letters III), p. 127
http://books.google.com/books?as..._maxy=&
as_isbn=
Dr. Martin Luther’s Sämmtliche Werke (Complete Works), Briefwechsel (Correspondence), edited by Ernst Ludwig Enders, Zehnter Band (Tenth Vol.)
http://books.google.com/books?id...+enders%
22#PPP5,
Paul,
I actually replied to each verse you quoted and then realized you said there's no "explicit account" of NT saints praying to heavenly saints. So we're pretty much in agreement on that issue. I thought it ironic that the one place we see in the NT a man asking someone other than God/Jesus to intercede was a man in hell. (Luke 16) You've done a good job of showing that the heavenly saints are indeed alive; but there's still no Biblical evidence that we should pray to them or angels, and it really seems as though there should be.
Matt 18:10 where Jesus tells us there are guardian angels would have been the perfect time to say we should pray to them, but He didn't. I went to a RC website that was discussing praying to saints, and it said that initially they prayed for heavenly saints, but then someone (possibly Oriegin (sp?)) said that we need their prayers more than they need ours and started praying to them. I'll try to find it again, but it was an indication that the earliest church fathers and apostles didn't pray to heavenly saints and angels. That's why I say this is a man-made tradition rather than an Apostolic tradition.
Rob brings up some good points as well. I found a RC website that said in the Middle Ages Buddha was considered a saint. It was a time when sainthood was granted (almost literally) by popular opinion and the stories of Buddha had swept across Europe and Buddha had gained the people's favor. So for centuries people prayed to St Buddha who wasn't even in heaven. St Thomas has all but been renounced, because all that's really known about him is that he helped a little girl across a river. So for centuries and lifetimes people have prayed (and may continue to pray) to some who aren't even in heaven. As Rob said, we know there is one AND ONLY ONE who is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. It only seems right to pray to Him only since we're never told to pray to anyone else.
You've done well to show me why the RCC allows prayer to heavenly saints, but you still haven't addressed why the Apostles and Patriarchs before them are NEVER recorded as ever having prayed to heavenly saints or angels.
.
Another partial "reply" from James White (which I will ignore since he has ignored 90% or more of my recent replies):
http://www.aomin.org/index.php?i...php?
itemid=2077
Here's another example of fallacious anti-Catholic logic. Obviously this person hasn't understood my arguments properly because he mis-applies them, just as White and Mabry did:
http://rdtwot.wordpress.com/2007...ying-to-saints/
Because he constructs a rather silly straw man, he concludes:
"As I see it Dave Armstrong hasn’t made a case to be refuted so to suggest that Protestants have to go another route in refuting his case seems disingenuous. This is perhaps one of the most contrived interpretations of Scripture that I have ever come across and I pray that it is not representative of the Catholic position on this matter. They’d do better to simply stick with tradition as their authority in this matter and leave Scripture out of it."
Jim Polk chimes in with more of the same misguided mush. These people are flat-out amazing in how illogical they are. He gives us the usual garden-variety objection:
"It's quite a leap of logic to conclude from their awareness of some things, that finite creatures, such as the saints in Heaven, would possess the infinite attributes required to field multitudinous requests and intercede for all who pray to them. Omnipresence and omniscience are two such attributes."
http://reformed-rant-
man.blogspo...necromancy.html
Of course I didn't conclude any such thing, nor is it necessary to conclude.
Gordan in comments adds to the general incomprehension:
"People don't often realize that praying to Mary/the saints really requires not merely knowledge but omniscience on the part of said saint."
Pray for my patience folks.
"It's quite a leap of logic to conclude from their awareness of some things, that finite creatures, such as the saints in Heaven, would possess the infinite attributes required to field multitudinous requests and intercede for all who pray to them. Omnipresence and omniscience are two such attributes."
Of course I didn't conclude any such thing, nor is it necessary to conclude.
I suppose technically Dave is correct here.
Theoretically a saint in heaven would only have to be omniscient and omnipresent with respect to the planet earth to be able to intercede for all who would ask him to (he need not be omniscient and omnipresent with respect to Mars). But again, I have no way of knowing that is in fact the case.
If (thinking aloud) you really desire the assistance of St. Michael in interceding for something you lost, why not just pray to the Father and ask the Father (if it is within His will) to route this request to St. Michael to join you on behalf of this request.
Let's pretend for a moment that Aquinas and others haven't made interesting and compelling cases for the notion that the saints are quite capable of being aware of the requests for intercession made of them. Despite the fact that God could certainly enable them to do so. Set all that aside for a moment.
JimJoe is pastor of First Protestant Church, a congregation of 10,000 in Big City, USA. He asks his congregation to send him all their prayer requests, and promises to pray for them.
He receives 10,000 prayer requests.
Does he read them all? Not likely.
Can he pray for them all? Absolutely.
Even if it is assumed that the saints in heaven have no greater capacity for knowledge than we do - a giant assumption (and one that I believe to be absurd) - even if we assume that, it is still ENTIRELY possible for the saints to pray concerning EVERY prayer request that they receive, no less than JimJoe:
"Lord, grant the petitions of those who have asked me to intercede for them."
So this idea that the saints would have to be omniscient is simply wrong.
Reginald:
I am not saying dogmatically that they definititely do not have the capability to be hear every single request for prayer routed to them. We don't know that for sure. But neither do we know for sure that they do have this ability (there is a difference between what God could do and what He actually does). And this ability really does seem very close to omniscience and/or omnipresence, which I know is a characteristic that only God has.
As far as your hypothetical goes, if I knew that pastor Jim Joe was going to bundle my prayer request with the 10K others he received and bring them before the Lord as a part of a generic "grant all of these requests" type of prayer, I for one would not bother sending it in. I just don't see those types of prayers as being all that effective.
If I were to change my mind and view asking the saints for intercession as a positive activity rather than a dubious one, I would still make my request to the Father and ask him to route it to a saint of His choosing. In my mind this seems more proper and more clear.
In the end, this is a minor issue to me. I also have my doubts whether asking the saints to intercede for a prayer request is logically the same as praying to baal.
Hi Rob,
Jesus prayed for all Christians who would ever live (John 17:20-23). I know you do not object to being included in His prayers and I am sure you do not consider his prayers to be ineffective. My point is that a prayer of that sort is by no means invalid, and there is no reason whatsoever to suppose it is ineffective. Well, it seems to me that a prayer of the sort that I suggested ("Grant the petitions of those who ask me to intercede for them") is not of a particularly different category.
It seems one has to jump through a lot of hoops to justify praying to heavenly saints. Regarding heavenly saints, he must address: 1) can they even hear us, 2) if so, how much are they aware of, 3) how many prayers can they handle, 4) is it even their "job" to be praying for us, 5) why isn't it recorded even once in the Bible, 6) is a particular "saint" even in heaven, and (certainly not least) 7) why did Paul tell us there was only one mediator between God and man and then tell us it was Jesus? And this isn't even an exhaustive list.
We know that God is omniscient and omnipresent. Any prayer made to Him WILL be heard and WILL be answered. THAT is undisputable. Even amongst RCs many of the questions I mentioned are disputable. Why not go with the sure fire way?
Suppose you had a terminal illness and there were 2 "cures" you could take. Cure #1 never failed...EVER. It's what every doctor since the beginning of time agrees works. Cure #2 is newer and presumed as good as #1 but those presumptions aren't conclusive. It's been endorsed by some of the best doctors but not by the elite doctors. The costs are the same, the application the same, and the side-effects the same. Which cure would you take? No one in their right mind would risk taking cure #2 when cure #1 was full proof.
If you had an urgent message that needed to go to the most important person in your life, would you send it via the medium that was 100% guaranteed to get it there or over a lesser medium that will probably get it there with a few bells and whistles (maybe it amplifies it, sends it multiple times, words it a little nicer)? In our everyday life we choose the 100% effective method...it's a no-brainer. Why with regard to something even more important would you risk going a route that may not be 100%?
I can't deny that heavenly saints see us or that they pray for us (nor do I want to), and no human can discern their prayer capacity. If you see a brother in danger or ill, do you wait until he asks you to pray for him to start praying? I can just see it now, "Hey Bob's dying of cancer, but I'm going to wait until he asks me before I start praying for him." That's ludicrous! IF angels & heavenly saints can see us and glorify God by praying for us, they don't need us to pray to them; they'll pray for us in order to glorify God. Humans, on the other hand, often don't know what's going on or are forgetful, so they need to be requested or reminded to pray for us. Angels & heavenly saints don't.
But even if we acknowledge that heavenly saints do see us and pray for us (which I don't necessarily), we're NEVER commanded or even encouraged to pray to them in any of the Holy Scriptures. Not one of the Apostles, Prophets, or Jesus Himself taught us to pray to heavenly saints. THAT is very telling. Don't you think?
.
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