Dave,
You said "The reprobate in Hades eventually are sentenced to hell (Rev 20:13-15)"
But I thought the Church teaches that upon death you are immediately sent to Heaven or Hell. I was almost sure the Church rejects the idea the damned go to a non-hell to suffer and then are thown into "real hell" with their bodies after the final judment.
Oops - I was going to ask the same thing as Nick.
Hi Dave, Here are some more OT verses that support the doctrine of Purgatory:
But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and no torment shall touch them. They seemed, in the view of the foolish, to be dead; and their passing away was thought to be an affliction and their going forth from us, utter destruction. But they are in peace. For if before men, indeed, they be punished, yet is their hope full of immortality; Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself. As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself. In the time of their visitation they shall shine, and shall dart about as sparks through stubble. (Wis. 3:1-7).
Be generous to all the living and withhold not your kindness from the dead. (Sir. 7:33)
The following verse was used by the Pharisees prior to Jesus' birth to support the doctrine of Purgatory:
In the whole land, says the Lord, two thirds shall be cut off and perise and one third left alive. And I will put this third into the fire and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name and I will answer them. I will say, 'They are my people'; and they will say, 'The Lord is my God.' (Zech. 13:8-9).
Here is what is said about the passage Zech 13:8-9 in the Babylonian Talmud:In the Babylonian Talmud, translated by Michael L. Rodkinson (1918 ), at Tractate Rosh Hashana Chapter 1, pp. 26-27:
"We have learned in a Boraitha: The school of Shammai said: There are three divisions of mankind at the Resurrection: the wholly righteous, the utterly wicked, and the average class. The wholly righteous are at once inscribed, and life is decreed for them; the utterly wicked are at once inscribed, and destined for Gehenna, as we read [Dan. 12:2]: "And many of them that sleep in the dust shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." The third class, the men between the former two, descend to Gehenna, but they weep and come up again, in accordance with the passage [Zech. 13: 9]: "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; and they shall call on My name, and I will answer them." Concerning this last class of men Hannah says [I Sam. 2: 6]: "The Lord causeth to die and maketh alive, He bringeth down to the grave and bringeth up again." The school of Hillel says: The Merciful One inclines (the scale of justice) to the side of mercy, and of this third class of men David says [Psalms, 114:1]: "It is lovely to me that the Lord heareth my voice"; in fact, David applies to them the Psalm mentioned down to the words, "Thou hast delivered my soul from death" [ibid. 8]."
The similarities between this passage and 1 Cor. 3:9-15 is striking and since St. Paul was a Pharisee himself he would have been certainly familiar with the use of a refining fire in the Tradition of the Elders as a reference to purgatorial fire.
Here is another passage from St. Paul which reflects his Pharisaic upbringing and which happens to support the notion of Purgatory as well. People do not cite to it often because it is an obscure reference to the Book of Enoch mentioned in Jude.
I know someone in Christ who, fourteen years ago (whether in the body or out of the body I do know, God knows), was caught up to the third heaven. And I know that this person (whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows) was caught up into Paradise and heard ineffable things, which no one may utter. (2 Cor. 12:1-4)
Here, St. Paul references two places–the third heaven and Paradise. I have pointed out elsewhere that the Pharisees and for that matter, most Jews who lived during intertestamental times believed that there were several heavens, seven in all, each having a distinct purpose. Third heaven and Paradise were just two of those places. Along with this heavenly scheme, they also believed that were also seven levels of the abode of the dead. The Jewish version of Purgatory was on one of those levels. See also, The Book of Enoch the Prophet referred to at Jude 14 as well as The Testament of Abraham.
Dante's Divine Comedy makes use of this multi-layered afterlife. This passage is St. Paul’s own Dante-like trip. If St. Paul believed in a “Paradise” and a “Third Heaven,” it is probable that he would have also believed in a state we now call “Purgatory.”
Luke 16 only indicates punishment after death for the UNSAVED. That's why it's so odd that it's being used as a potential support for Purgatory. Lazarus was not in torment or discomfort; the text says he was being comforted, for goodness' sake. This is not Purgatory. Saying it shows the potentiality of Purgatory, is grasping for straws in the absence of evidence.
This is Nick T, by the way.
Luke 16 only indicates punishment after death for the UNSAVED. That's why it's so odd that it's being used as a potential support for Purgatory. Lazarus was not in torment or discomfort; the text says he was being comforted, for goodness' sake. This is not Purgatory. Saying it shows the potentiality of Purgatory, is grasping for straws in the absence of evidence.
Mr. Armstrong pointed out several times in his article that he was not using Luke 16 to support the presence of Purgatory, but the existence of a third state besides Heaven and Hell, and of the existence of punishment after death. As he said, "The argument for Purgatory is more involved."
Though I will point out that we can't necessarily exclude the possibility that Lazarus was saved here. He had love for his brothes. The condemned don't have that.
Excellent comments! Thanks so much. They really add to the discussion.
But I thought the Church teaches that upon death you are immediately sent to Heaven or Hell. I was almost sure the Church rejects the idea the damned go to a non-hell to suffer and then are thrown into "real hell" with their bodies after the final judgment.
I think this is true after Jesus came, since He rescued the righteous saved from Hades and took them to heaven. At some point the unrighteous in Hades go to hell, as I believe Rev 20:13-15 indicates.
Here’s a passage from Augustine (Comm. on Psalm 109) which I thought might have some bearing on the discussion, if only peripherally. I copy-pasted, so it retains the older spellings, but formatted a little differently so that it would (hopefully) be more readable.
Section 17;
Doth any pain reach the dead resulting from what happeneth among a man's relations after his death? Or are they, whose powers of perception are in different places, according to their deservings, whether good or evil, to be supposed to be conscious of these things?
To this I answer, that it is indeed a great question, and not one to be discussed at present, because it belongeth to a labour of greater extent, whether, or to what degree, or in what manner, the spirits of the dead are aware of what is passing around us.
Nevertheless, as may briefly be alleged, if they had no concern for us, our Lord would not represent that rich man who was suffering torment in hell to have said,
I have fire brethren, … lest they also come into this place of torment Lk. 16:28
But let those who attempt to understand this otherwise, understand it in whatever sense they please.
And since it must be confessed, that it doth not follow, that if the dead know that their relations are living, because they see them neither in the regions of punishment, where that rich man was, nor in the repose of the blessed, where he recognised Lazarus and Abraham, at however great a distance, that they must needs for that reason know all the joyful and sorrowful events that affect those dear unto them.
A Library of Fathers of the Holy Catholic Church, Oxford, 1853, Vol. 5, Pp. 217-218. http://books.google.com/books?
id...sJY2kzgTQ2bjGAQ
Newadvent omits the above by abruptly ending chapter 15 (ch. 16 in the Library of Fathers).
“By memorial of them, he means, that which is preserved by successive generations: this he prophesied should perish from the earth, because both Judas himself, and his sons, who were the memorial of his father and mother, without any succeeding offspring, as it is said above, were consumed in the short space of one generation.…”
Ch. 17 at NewAdvert begins:
17. The Psalm then continues: "His delight was in cursing, and it shall happen to him" (ver. 17). http://www.newadvent.org/fathers...ers/
1801109.htm
Which is equivalent to ch 20 in the Library of Fathers version (p. 222):
20 Ver 18 The Psalm then continueth His delight was in cursing and it shall happen to him.
It’s confusing and frustrating – and that’s on a slow day!! 
"Mr. Armstrong pointed out several times in his article that he was not using Luke 16 to support the presence of Purgatory, but the existence of a third state besides Heaven and Hell, and of the existence of punishment after death."
I understand that, but Purgatory is punishment of the saved after death. This parable only substantiates the punishment of the unsaved after death. All Protestants believe this.
"As he said, "The argument for Purgatory is more involved." "
Again, I understand that. My point is, this passage is a slippery stepping stone upon which to build that doctrine. OK, it indicates a third place for the dead aside from heaven and hell...so what? It is still clearly a place of punishment for the unsaved. Most Protestants, I think, believe it is basically the precursor to the Lake of Fire, which will not be created until the end times. You can't just go from "third place after death" immediately to "Ok, so Purgatory is possible." Yes, Fairyland after death is also possible, but nobody's jumping to that conclusion from reading Luke 16.
"Though I will point out that we can't necessarily exclude the possibility that Lazarus was saved here. He had love for his brothes. The condemned don't have that."
Yes, Lazarus was saved. The rich man wasn't.
I will someday remember to sign my posts....Nick T.
Nick, I think Dave mistyped when he said we can't necessarily exclude the possibility that "Lazarus" was saved here. I think he meant "Dives" or the rich man. It has been argued that because the rich man shows concern for his brothers, that means the rich man is not damned and therefore is not in hell, but is in some purgatory-like place.
I'm not sure I buy that, though. This is, after all, a parable, so we shouldn't view it as a literal depiction of the afterlife. The five brothers of the Dives probably aren't to be taken as literal brothers either, but could represent the Jewish people who observe the commands of the Pentateuch, or could represent the five Jewish sects or parties: Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes, Zealots, Herodians, and Hellenists. Similarly, the rich man isn't necessarily meant to be taken as acurately depicting a real person, but is a literary figure who is representative ofthe man who trusts in riches.
Hi Jordan, as far as whether the story of Lazarus and Dives is a parable, I was taught that it was not. Unlike any of the other parables that Jesus taught, this is the only one in which Jesus actually uses names. Personally, I think it was a more like a "case-study" of sorts, more along the lines of an anecdote as opposed to a parable. To me, Lazarus was a real person, who received the rewards of his sufferings.
Hi Paul. Yes, I've encountered the opinion that the parable of Lazarus and Dives relates actual events of real persons. Some of the Fathers of the Church believed that there really was a Jewish beggar named Lazarus. However, the fact that the real persons Abraham and Moses are named in the parable does not mean that Lazarus and Dives were real too. We should keep in mind that Jesus spoke this parable shortly after teaching that, "You cannot serve God and Mammon" (verse 13) and criticising the Pharisees "who loved money" (verse 14). Jesus then contradicts the teaching and authority of the of the Pharisees in verses 14-18 before proceeding to the parable of Lazarus and Dives, which criticises the Pharisee belief that wealth and riches are signs of heavenly favor, whereas poverty and affliction are signs of God's disapproval. Jesus turns things on their heads, showing a holy beggar Lazarus and a rich man who goes to hell. That inversion is shocking enough, but it is even more amazing that the poor holy man is given a name, Lazarus (Eleazar, "God is helper" -- Lazarus was not helped by his fellow man or by the rich man, but he is helped by God), t, whereas the rich man is an anonymous cipher. In this world, everyone knows the names of the rich and powerful and the celebrities, but the poor are nameless and faceless. But in Jesus' parable it's the other way around -- the beggar is named, and is honored, and is blessed, whereas the rich man is nameless and faceless and consigned to torments, separated from the blessed by a gulf that no one can bridge (suggesting that the rich man is not in a purgatory-like place, but will be separated from Abraham and the blessed for all eternity). As Scripture says, the very memory of the wicked shall be forgotten, so it is fitting that the rich man remain nameless.
Given that this story is didactic and is intended to show the defects and omissions of the doctrine of the Pharisees, there is not adequate grounds to insist that Lazarus and the rich man were real persons. Maybe they were, but it is more likely that the persons of Lazarus and Dives, and the name of Lazarus, are representative or symbolic.
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