Hi Dave,
Doesn't 1st John 5:16 address this question? John basically says that our prayers can heal the wounds caused by non-mortal sin in others, but as for mortal sin, prayers don't help.
I might be wrong about this, but isn't mortal sin the only type of sin that "sends one to Hell" (presuming one is baptized)? And thus, our prayers (or lack thereof) cannot be the direct cause of anyone's salvation or damnation?
I suppose in an indirect, or mediate, manner, anything is possible. One might say that St.Monica "caused" the salvation of her son, but that does not seem to be what the original question meant.
I doubled the size of the original post, as of 3:30 PM EST Tuesday.
Hi Clavem,
I think this is a great insight. The text there, however, probably has a nuanced interpretation, too. I don't think we could say that we shouldn't pray for anyone who is committing mortal sin. That wouldn't make much sense. So I think John is doing some strong "compare and contrast" himself.
This is clear in, e.g., 1 Jn 3:6: "No one who abides in him sins . . ." It's idealized language: in other words: "a Christian who is a Christian in essence, and according to the full import of discipleship, does not sin."
But we all fall short of that, so it has to be interpreted in a sort of proverbial, idealistic fashion (as in the Proverbs, where "righteous" men are contrasted with "wicked" men), certainly not literally, or else it wouldn't fit in with the reality of actual life.
Is it so hard to believe our actions can have consequences? Certainly doing good can cause others to come to faith and salvation. It follows that failure to do good can fail to cause such things to happen. We either have power to do good and bad or we have no power at all. To say we have no power at all would make evangelism irrelevant.
So if our actions can have eternal consequences then why not our choice to pray or not to pray? It can make a difference. Sure it is all God's grace but He chooses to give our decisions meaning. So if you pray fervently for the salvation of someone's soul then God might choose to bless you by saving that person. The little flower tells such a story. If the positive story is possible then the negative one is too.
Sure, but if you fail to do so, it isn't as if that person's salvation hangs on the action or inaction of one other human being. That was my initial point in analyzing the relationship of prayer to final destiny. God always has "Plan B" when we screw up and don't cooperate as we should.
If he always has a plan B then doesn't that make our cooperation with plan A meaningless? Either our actions have consequences or God just replaces everything we don't do. If it is the ladder then sacrificing makes no sense.
Our responsibility is to pray and do penance for the salvation of souls. God works around our sin, rebellion and lack of cooperation.
God only has one plan (to say otherwise is to cast doubt on his foreknowledge and/or omnipotence).
Think of Pharoah. He freely choose to not let the Israelites out of his land, yet God's plan was to free the Israelites, so that was happening whether Pharoah wanted it or not, being promised to Moses. Pharoah's "hardness of heart" was also part of God's plan, as the text says, so it's not quite true that Pharoah dashed God's Plan A, and made him resort to Plan B.
I see no reason why God could not arrange that your salvation hinges on a single action of another individual. However, that action is not effective in itself, as is prayer for another's venial sin.
Consider an example: Jesus' action on the Cross effectively brought salvation to the world. Mary's decision at the Annunciation also brought salvation to the world, though indirectly and mediately. Another's salvation could depend on our action in the same way that the world's salvation depended on Mary's action (ie. indirectly).
It is not that God watches and says "I guess plan A didnt work, I failed, lets try plan B" He has plan A because he knows and wants to shows us how we fail so he gives us plan B.
It is not God that fails it is us that fail without him.
All things that are done of man alone without God are bound to fail. You have many examples of in the gospels, the Zealots, Judas, in their own the Pharasees and others.
"Plan B" is, of course, speaking from our human perspective, or "anthropomorphizing" a bit. God being omniscient and out of time, knows what will happen and works around that. So for Him there is no multiple plans, but just one: the one He uses to achieve His ends.
God could indeed use one person to cause another to accept God's grace and salvation. All that I was denying was that the person saved could and would go to hell if another particular person failed to do his part in the conveying of grace.
My point was that God will always bring another to do the same thing, if that is what it takes (so that it doesn't have to be particular person X but could be any person to do so; also that each person's final destiny rests ultimately between him and God, and no one else.
If you want a high place in Heaven you on your own must accept god s will and save souls by being a Saint. If you say no , then the soul is not saved of your own doing.
God will not choose to save a dirty soul unless he can do it through only you alone. And he can condemn it based on that action of yours alone choosing no. Clearly if this soul depends on God saving grace through you it is already in a condemned state. Should you bring it out, God want s to save it and bring you up. Should you not , God will bring you lower and that soul shall perish.
Without God we cannot , without us God will not. Mary s highest place is that she never used her choice to say no and God depended on her to enter the world , knowing she would freely say yes always. God will only do to you what he can do through you to others. That is why the Saints are the Saints and are so generously blessed above all else by God. Because they say yes at every turn and that yes becomes someone elses , and many souls are brought to heaven. And in heaven the community knows that it depended on that person to get there not withstanding that only God can save a soul. It is a gift to be saved , and many times a gift given through a single individual .
One person does make the difference. I think we all know that if you see a dying man and walk away he will die. There is not , another will come along if God wants this person to live. If God wants this person saved you will do it and you alone. It is this ferventness that the Apostles had. Knowing that they were responcible for all you see today , by God's grace. Had they said no , all humanity would perish in its sin. That is why being saved is a gift , we deserve death but occasionally someone comes and helps us choose life.
Penance can save a soul that is in mortal sin and ready to perish. All grace comes from God through Mary a person. God will not allow her to do great things without our cooperation. By even choosing a food that is less pleasing and offering it up as penance to God , the living memebers of the church , the mystical body of christ can make more grace available from Mary. It is especially these graces which strengthen the Kingdom and thus save souls , which is the most that can be done , and which earns us our seat at the banquet table as the Apostle put it at Jesus' right hand.
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