Somewhere in the OT, a prophet said that any man who says he isn't a liar, IS a liar! I was raised to tell the truth and to not lie, but nobody, told me to LOVE the truth, to seek it and embrace it! One of the more common ways we practice falsehood is in denying our feelings of fear and inadequacy not realizing that these are the very positions that God's love begins growing in us. God's grace is powerful and benevolent - Jesus was merciful even to the demons (who, by the way are terrified of Him). We portray the image of an impotent and silly god when we begin to practice fear-based beliefs and villify and condemn that which is innocent. Youthful and innocent beliefs can help to cultivate faith in a heavenly father who is definitely interested in childlike, innocent enjoyment. If fantasy troubles another's conscience I have no problem restraining from provoking them, but do not believe fear of fantasy should be promoted as a reflection of a loving and powerful God.
My problem with telling little children that there is a Santa Claus is that it may lead to confusing the poor child in his faith if he finds out too soon there isn't a Santa Claus. To young children, Christmas is associated with baby Jesus and Santa Claus. If they find out there isn't really a Santa Claus, they may end up thinking that Jesus isn't real either, because they are both associated with Christmas.
Not that I've actually had any experience with this situation, I'm just saying it could cause a hindrance in a child growing in his or her faith.
Maybe so. I don't know how often such a thing happens. I know that for myself, the thought never crossed my mind that my parents had been "lying" to me. I would have thought that was just as absurd then as I do now.
I suppose it is a matter of faith and sensitivity as to whether sharing the tradition of Santa and the E. Bunny is an appropriate fit. Those whose faith lies more in the literal rather than the spiritual most likely should not should not be entrusted with such traditions. If my freedom allows me to enjoy these things with good conscience, I will not flaunt that towards someone who is bothered by it, but this stance of avoiding these traditions should not be preached as a level of superior faith and thoughtfulness to embrace, but should honestly be acknowledged as a different level of faith.
This is an interesting thread and has actually occupied my mind from time to time over the past year. I would think a "superior" position would be in truth telling much to what Grubb was asserting. Is not a lie a lie? Granted this comes down to disputes my wife and I have. I believe in complete honesty, she believes in white lies. The example being in the classic "does this make me look fat?" or even more dangerous "do I look fat?" I told my wife when we were dating to never ask a question she didn't seriously want an answer to. She calls white lies in this area diplomacy, I call them lies. After a few ugly situations where my position didn't prevail 
I have since decided to either change the subject in this department or alter my answers to not directly answer the question. I hate lying and I hate the sense of guilt that follows telling a lie. Any time I have tried to lie I almost immediately fess up because I can't handle the guilt.
I suppose the same goes towards whether or not to do the Santa Clause etc. thing when children are in the picture. My first instinct is to tell them the truth. Fantasy and imagination are good and well in children but reality is so much more important. I know this because I have one of the largest imaginations of anyone I know and it can often distract me from reality. I can remember when I found out that Santa Claus and the rest were not real. It was intereting actually how I found out. When I was eight I noticed that Santa and my mom had the same handwriting! I asked her for the truth and she told me. I must admit I was rather upset having been lied to and my parents did lose some credibility with me. I think if I had gotten a bit more truth and explaination from my parents growing up (even beyond this topic) I wouldn't have gone down some of the perilous roads I traveled, namely drug addiction. I'm not saying discovering Santa Claus wasn't real was the reason for it but the mentality that follows is partly responsible for potential consequences in developement down the road. You can't teach a child the value of honesty if you lie to them.
Beyond lying I would say further that when we hunker down around commercialization of and practicing falsehoods about we lose much of what these days represent...the reason for the season so to speak. As a child when Christmas came I thought more of Santa bringing me presents than I did with the birth of Christ and I would imagine that this is the commone take of most children. Especially these days when materialism is so high.
My personal contention is to give the days over fully to celebrating Christ and do away with the other nonsense because they really aren't necessary and nothing in this world could top the good news we are comemorating. But I can agree childish fun is fun I just think we should keep it honest.
In regard to "white lies" versus truth telling - I love the truth and value it highly. But often, if one is not attuned to their own spiritual needs, they might indeed ask "Does this make me look fat?" when in fact they actually need to say, "I am feeling really insecure right now - the influences and standards of the world would define me as a castoff - I need to know that I am loved - are you available to reassure and affirm me?". If we have researched our own hearts and understand how we starve spiritually apart from God and acknowledge how God loves unconditionally, we can gain insight and sensitivity towards responding lovingly to people who are less insightful and do not yet have the ability to be fully honest with themselves. As believers, we have great freedom as long as it is constructive - as long as we are drawing people closer to the love of Christ, we can employ sensitivity and discernment on what is a good fit in most situations. God is not an exacting deity who is demanding , formulaic and punishing- His Way is not just the truth, but the LOVING truth - in other words, how He defines and expresses love is Holy - we need to learn from Him or our definition of love becomes confusing and distorted - we suffer when we do not understand His unfailing love . I think when we practice belief in fairy tales, we grow our ability and faith in a God whose love is very fantastical and increasingly beginning to become less and less demonstrated in this very demanding and exacting world.
I have learned a lot about white lies in my own experiences. They really don't do anyone a service. I had very low self esteem when I was younger laregly due to the lack of honesty in my peers and close friendships. Only people who knew me well knew of my insecurities and they would coddle me telling me the opposite of what I was feeling. Well, what I was feeling was not far from reality and they were simply trying to make me feel better by telling me the opposite. Each time I discovered the truth the insecurities only grew as the pain of the lies and knowing the truth grew. If people had been more honest with me then, realizing my faults I would work on the neded improvements and highlight more of my finer qualities. Instead I continued to stumble. A white lie is often delivered with good intentions because no one who cares wants to hurt their friends. However, when you find out the truth the lie hurts that much further. Truth may hurt but disvoring the truth through discovering a lie is far more painful believe me. It wasn't too long ago that I grew out of the bitterness of my youth that developed from years of this. People deserve honesty and you can help make them a better person from it. All that is needed is a little tact and a truth that can brighten a persons day.
I fail to see how believing fairy tales can make a person grow spiritually.
[I've also posted this in its proper thread, since it is discussing an existing post apart from the Open Forum]
Grubb wrote:
You said the EB & SC topic was an interesting one but never weighed in on it after your 2nd comment.
I know you disagreed with my initial objection to lying to children or simply didn't believe that propagating a myth as a truth is a lie. I presume you read Randy & my conversation. Do you still think telling children that SC & EB are real isn't a lie? Or do you still think it's a harmless lie?
As argued, fairy tales are not "lies." The only difference here is that young children are still in a state that they actually believe some fantasy to be reality. It's up to the parents, therefore, to control the input to these children. If something teaches good values, it is harmless to play along and regard it as a true myth.
J.R.R. Tolkien wrote:
"It is not difficult to imagine the peculiar excitement and joy that one would feel, if any specially beautiful fairy-story were found to be 'primarily' true, its narrative to be history, without thereby necessarily losing the mythical or allegorical significance that it had possessed . . . God is the Lord of angels, and of men -- and of elves. Legend and History have met and fused . . . The Evangelium has not abrogated legends; it has hallowed them, especially the 'happy ending'."
C.S. Lewis stated:
"I do not think the resemblance between the Christian and the merely imaginative experience is accidental. I think that all things, in their way, reflect heavenly truth, the imagination not least."
This is essentially my argument: the fairy tale or myth of Santa Claus reflects heavenly truth: it's good to give: someone is watching over us and rewards good deeds, etc.
Jonathan, thanks for your comment - it brought to light an edit I wanted to make to my prior comment about believing in fairy tales - I ought to have said, "enjoying" fairy tales rather than "believing" fairy tales - the difference being, that I am in no danger of deifying Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny but have the freedom to see an expression of Christ's generosity and lovingkindness in these mythological characters. Our spiritual freedom should be used with love and sensitivity - if we follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit and yield to God's guidance, we will respond rightly to different individuals. Each person should respond according to the level of faith accorded him and in love. We all have the ability to grow our faith to increasingly respond with love to one another.
It's not that I am against fairy tales nor do I think they are lies in and of themselves. I thoroughly enjoy them myself. I think where I get hung up is espousing them as true. Young children aren't told it's just a fairy tale but instead are told that SC and EB are indeed real. Someone had mentioned before that there is potential for the child to say if Santa isn't real then maybe Jesus...
There are real grounds for SC so maybe it would be good to teach a child about the real St. Nicholaus in light of the fairy tale.
Perhaps my contentions run deeper. I think in light of recent attempts by the secular to take Christ out of the season gives me a further reasoning behind drifting form SC and EB to highlighting Christ. It is certainly something I shall have to ponder.
Beautiful Feet,
Your name makes me giggle. In recent years I was jokingly accused of staring at my sis-in-laws feet so now whenever I speak to her (she lives in Atlanta so I don't see her often) I ask how her beautiful feet are doing. I also ponder giving her some foot care products for Christmas every year as a gag gift. 
Jonathan, thanks for your graciousness! Sometimes believers approach a topic such as this in a condemnatory and accusatory way - the charge of lying is a pretty serious one and impugns integrity and motives. We can all benefit by embracing the truth of Christ - your rationale is very reasonable for not practicing Santa Claus and Easter B. God Bless!
I haven't decided as far as my own family is concerned. I'm a thinker and often spend my time pondering ethics and morality and what would be the best direction. And other times I like to hear what others think and why they think it. It's a great way to learn. I think I left the impression in another thread that I seek the bare minimum in matters of faith. A lot of times I only ask questions to inspire thought in myself and thoughts in others. I think as a people we don't ponder some of the lesser issues in life which is easy to do as we face so many larger ones daily.
I will even be so honest to say that on occasion I will make a defense for something I don't agree with just to hear another persons rationale for opposition. I will let it be known I don't believe what I am defending but I raise what the other side might say in a scenario just to promote dialogue.
This topic is one I am undecided on in certain areas. I think it is likely that when children do become a reality that we will continue in American tradition, I am just uncertain as to whether we will go full force in a "real" Santa Claus or the idea of Santa Claus. I remember how fun it was as a child and I don't know that I would rob them of that innocent joy however, I do have strict feelings about honesty and don't know how to pursue both. This has been a good dialogue and has given much food for thought and I have enjoyed talking with others about this.
Beautiful Feet,
You have a wonderful outlook on life. Your words are very peaceful and soothing. I agree too many people immediately get up in arms on something that shouldn't be made a serious issue.
We teach our kids about Jesus and St. Nicholas, alongside the harmless fairy tale of Santa Claus, so they aren't missing out on anything. It's not "either/or."
I continue to think it is an utterly misguided (though obviously well-intentioned) outlook that would regard these things as "lies" and sin. Anyone has the right, of course, to decide to refrain from "practicing" a folk tradition like this, if they want.
The problem comes when they try to universalize their own feeling about it and make out that no one else should practice it because they don't.
I suppose, however, if one thinks it is literally a lie and a sin, then they would have to apply it across the board. Because I deny that it is those things, then to me it is absurd to make it a blanket rule that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are evil and deceptive.
If in fact that were true, it seems to me that there would be a large-scale, "institutional" Christian opposition to it, akin to what we often see with regard to Halloween (mostly in evangelical and fundamentalist Protestant circles).
But I don't see that. If these things are literally sins, it should be made very clear in Christian circles: "don't teach your kids about Santa Claus! That's a sin and a violation of the Ten Commandments!" Etc. I've never heard that in any church in my life (now 30 years of serious commitment to Christianity both as a Protestant and as a Catholic).
That being the case, those of you who think the practices and beliefs are lies and sins should get busy trying to convince various church groups of that, so the outrageous practices can be brought to an end once and for all.
It should be pointed out, too, that "Santa Claus" was itself largely a Protestant secularization of the veneration of St. Nicholas: a real saint (who was known for benevolence). It was precisely the Protestant falsehood and spiritual bankruptcy with regard to veneration of the saints that brought about this new tradition, which some of the same Protestants now decry as a lie (as well as the increasing secularization of Christmas itself). I found an Orthodox web page that touched upon this aspect:
"Saint Nicholas, revered as a saint, a bishop of a major city, and a real person by Eastern Orthodox, Byzantine Catholic and Roman Catholic Christians, entered into legend among the Protestants of Europe. Though reverence for the saints has deemphasized, neglected, despised, and even forbidden within Protestantism, the honoring of Saint Nicholas could not be suppressed. He emerged in the popular culture as Santa Claus , Saint Nick, Sinter Klaus, and other names. Always, he is a kindly man who gives gifts to others -- especially children -- during the Christmas season. Gradually, his gifts came to be given on Christmas eve rather than on the proper day for the celebration of Saint Nicholas, December 6."
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/...tnich-
page.html
A Protestant site approaches the same general thought from a little different angle, and provides some very interesting tidbits about Christmas traditions that I hadn't heard before:
"During the Reformation, however, Nicholas fell out of favor with Protestants, who did not approve of canonizing certain people as saints and venerating them with holidays. His holiday was not celebrated in any Protestant country except Holland, where his legend as Sinterklass lived on. In Germany, Martin Luther replaced him with the Christ child as the object of holiday celebration, or, in German, Christkindl. Over time, the celebration of the Christ child was simply pronounced Kriss Kringle and oddly became just another name for Santa Claus.
The legends about Santa Claus are most likely a compilation of other folklore. For example, there was a myth in Nicholas’ day that a demon was entering people's homes to terrorize children and that Nicholas cast it out of a home. This myth may explain why it was eventually believed that he came down people's chimneys.
Also, there was a Siberian myth (near the North Pole) that a holy man, or shaman, entered people's homes through their chimneys to leave them mushrooms as gifts. According to the legend, he would hang them in front of the fire to dry. Reindeer would reportedly eat them and become intoxicated. This may have started the myth that the reindeer could fly, as it was believed that the shaman could also fly. This myth may have merged with the Santa Claus myth and if so, explains him traveling from the North Pole to come down the chimney and leave presents on the mantle over the fireplace before flying away with reindeer.
These
(cont.)
. . . stories of Santa Claus were first brought to America by Dutch immigrants."
http://blog.marshillchurch.org/v...vintage-saints/
It looks like one could argue, therefore, that the Protestant ditching of the veneration of saints made it inevitable that the folk-myth Santa Claus would appear and become increasingly secularized over time, whereas without the truncated, skeletal Christianity of Protestantism, the Christian veneration of St. Nicholas would have simply continued, and it wouldn't be an issue of "lies" and "sin."
How ironic. I also find it somewhat humorous that at Christmas Protestants will actually talk about Mary a little bit and even semi-revere her, and get into the use of statues and icons (manger scenes: some even life-size, religious ornaments and Christmas cards, etc.), that they would eschew the rest of the year.
The overwhelming presence and influence of Historical (Catholic) Christianity cannot be totally wiped out, even in Protestant-dominated cultures. It is the ultimate incoherence of the Protestant theological vision, one could argue, that brings about these "dilemmas" of how to practice holy days (another Catholic concept that has been secularized to "holidays"). Falsehood always creates additional problems that wouldn't exist, but for the new false traditions introduced by late-arriving novel Christian sects.
To follow through on the thoughts of the previous thread:
It can then be stated that a Catholic parent who promulgates belief in Santa Claus in his household (alongside traditional Catholic beliefs such as Advent and St. Nicholas), is simply doing what the Church has always done: "baptizing" prevalent cultural customs for use in a Christian manner.
Ironically, in this case, it involves incorporation of a tradition or custom once fully Christian (veneration of St. Nicholas), then secularized (because of Protestant opposition to veneration of saints) and increasingly deprived of its overtly Christian elements.
The wise Catholic parent can incorporate the truncated cultural myth (that children will be massively exposed to in any event) back into a proper Christian understanding, by merging the child's conception of Santa Claus with the historical figure of St. Nicholas and stressing that it is truly God Who watches over us and knows all things, and Who rewards good deeds and faith in His Son for redemption and salvation: thus "baptizing" the custom.
Thus, Catholics can either co-opt existing pagan holidays -- such as the Church in the original Christmas celebration, taking over (and eventually wiping out) Roman holidays -- or bring back into an overtly Christian understanding, originally Catholic and Orthodox traditions that have been corrupted and despised by Protestants (St. Nicholas - Santa Claus).
And the "conservative" Protestant opposition to Santa Claus is ultimately simply a "purist" or "Puritan"-like objection to veneration of saints, just as the Puritans didn't celebrate Christmas itself, and it was the Anglicans in England and the US and immigrant Lutherans in the US, who introduced German Christmas customs, and overcame the more or less "native" Puritanism.
I have, therefore, now provided two completely different arguments in favor of Santa Claus:
1. The argument from the nature and necessity of fairy-tales and myths, as foretastes of heavenly realities (the Lewis/Tolkien approach).
2. The argument from reclaiming corrupted, secularized aspects of traditionally Christian practices (veneration of St. Nicholas and other saints), just as the Church did earlier on with thoroughly pagan practices, so as to win over the populace to Christianity.
Protestantism has an inadequate understanding of both myth/story and veneration of the saints, and this accounts for much of the opposition to Santa Claus, where it does exist (and it is a tiny group indeed that opposes Santa Claus, by all indications).
Furthermore, I would argue (I'm on a roll now!) that a Catholic who thinks in this "anti-Santa Claus" manner is, in all likelihood, simply being unduly influenced by Protestant strains of thought that are foreign to historic Catholicism. This happens all the time, in many areas. There are also many American Catholics who are more "American" in many ways, than "Catholic."
If someone disagrees, I'd love to see what you think of my last several posts, and what I have discussed there.
I don't know that all objection has to be tied to Protestantism (or its influence) in relation to the way some handle it though I would say it likely has had its effect. It makes since that during the revolution that Protestants would have distanced themselves from the saint aspect of it and gradually turned it into something secular or at least something not Catholic. The history you showed is quite remarkable and good info that I was unaware of. It's interesting to see that evolution. What's even more interesting is the irony that Protestants shaped the present day Santa Claus and some now make it evil.
My "objection" really didn't have anything to do with the history because as mentioned before I wasn't fully aware of it. The moral dilemma I was proposing is SC and EB being taught as real along the lines of how they are presently represented. A big fat man who has mystical flying reindeer and magic powers to know all the hearts of the world and manage to deliver toys to 6B people worldwide or a magic little bunny that hops around and drops eggs and candy for all the good little kids in the world really physically exist. That is the lie I was referring to.
I think I have settled in that I believe in the spirit (nature) of Santa Claus. That is the charity, good will, and value of being a good person and that God rewards those who obey His will. After all He really knows all and delivers presents or lumps of coal depending on how or if we serve Him. And I think in this vein one can participate in the spirit of the season, maintain entertaining tradional folk lore, and not be in any sort of quandry as to whether sin has entered in.
I wonder whether or not this myth espoused as truth has had any effect on some atheist's decisions about Christ. I have often heard them correlate a belief in God to the beleif in Santa Claus, fairies, elves, unicorns etc...
I just look at it another way.
My oldest daughter used to have an imaginary friend when she was young. "Daisy" would often eat meals with us. We'd have conversations with her (my daughter would change the pitch of her voice to convey "Daisy's" messages).
By talking to "Daisy" or by asking my daughter what "Daisy" was doing, was I - with my actions - making a statement that this imaginary friend was in fact real and thereby lying to my daughter? Or was I allowing her to have something that many children have, while I fully knew she would outgrow her imaginary friend?
I think the latter.
I have always viewed the SC and EB fairy tales the same way. I allowed my children to believe them and even acted out the imagination at times (hey, the milk and cookies are good!). But I knew they'd outgrow the fantasy just as my daughter (21 yrs old yesterday) outgrew "Daisy."
And I always made certain that the Christmas story was centered around Christ for my children. The fantasy was just something I allowed.
I think the story of Jesus - God made man - being born, living a fully human/ divine life, dying, being ressurected outshines all stories. Nothing compares to this. Nothing enriches as this. Nothing is more beautiful, more amazing, more glorious!! Fairy tales delight the heart. They are nourishing to the spirit. Yet what can compare to the greatest story ever told? I choose my life to be filled with both. Fantasy and super-reality. The story of Grace, and grace filled stories. One speaks directly of the light of God, the others speak of the many colors that stream from the one light. They both have their beauty. They both have their place. May God be praised and adored in what is seen and what is unseen,may God be praised in the many movements of the heart. And may my heart not judge how the Lord of glory works in any one else's heart. Peace to all.
Grubb wrote in the Open Forum:
Dave,
This will probably be my last post on the topic, so I'll post it here (instead of the obscure Open Forum) It seems to have run its course for now.
Tolkien's and Lewis' words are not equal to scripture. I realize you're trying to use two men whom I may respect to make the case, but their words aren't based in scripture. As I said before, I don't have a problem with fairy tales, happy endings, and talking vegetables. My problem is with the act of lying.
The Bible tells us not to lie (Col 3:9) and to let our word be accurate (Matt 5:34ish). Telling outright lies to our children seems to violate both of those. But rather than accept the truth of scripture, it seems that men want to skirt the issue and say it's no big deal. What if we taught our kids that all fairy tales were real? If it's such a good idea for SC and the EB, why not hobbits, elves, walking trees, and talking vegetables?
There have been many justifications and attempts to belittle the issue, but no one has given a good, theological reason for lying to kids about SC & the EB, so I'll have to conclude it's a sin like any other lie and something we should avoid.
I hope this didn't come across as harsh or offensive, but I was in a hurry and didn't have time to "soften" it.
.
Grubb | 02.20.07 - 4:19 pm | #
Grubb: Why "soften" a harsh and offensive accusation? Let's call it what it is - or isn't - it certainly isn't an act of faith to accuse the brethren (let's see...whose job is that????). On matters that are debatable, we need not be accusational in expressing our differences. Little children, without any prompting from adults, routinely create imagineray friends - are we to indict them as liars? Are we to villify their motives?? When adults cooperate with youthful inspiration, we can draw closer to the meaning of innocence and Jesus's call to become like little children. Obviously, this isn't a good fit for everyone, as some hold to the literal and legal - I'm certainly open to your reasoning as a good plan to follow for yourself though - not everyone can enjoy such matters (or might enjoy them too much). As a former atheist, it wasn't the practice of Santa Claus or E. bunny that deluded me from believing, it was the lack of the Holy Spirit. We need not fear S. Claus or E. Bunny overtaking God in the spiritual realm in the hearts and minds of believers or hurting children with our practices since belief in Jesus carries with it the testimony of the Holy Spirit. With the guidance and sensitivity of the Holy Spirit, we can better discern when practicing such fantasy and myth is a good fit for a child/parent relationship or not. To make a wholesale indictment or recommendation of such practices is not done by faith.
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