Good stuff, Dawn! Actually, you can see WHY the gay guy is generally the "safe friend" in films - the woman and the man are expecting a platonic relationship, so they relax those walls you were talking about; in fact your approach is to restore that platonic expectation to all relationships unless there's really a basis for something along with. (And really, if you don't have the platonic and sacrificial aspects of love along with eros, your prospects with the guy would be dim.)

Thanks for the excerpt!
Nightfly | Homepage | 06.13.06 - 2:13 pm | #

in fact your approach is to restore that platonic expectation to all relationships unless there's really a basis for something along with [it]. (And really, if you don't have the platonic and sacrificial aspects of love along with eros, your prospects with the guy would be dim.)

That's a great way of putting it, Nightfly. Thank you!
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 06.13.06 - 3:04 pm | #

This is really interesting stuff. Expect a trackback soon.

The question "What do women want out of men" is combined with the question "what do women want, given their values and what they think is best," and that's not insignificant.
ashok | Homepage | 06.13.06 - 5:38 pm | #

Dawn, I am a feminist and I don't agree with everything you write, but I wanted to thank you what you have to say about the view of men in popular culture. I may come at it from a different perspective; whenever I hear anyone say that men and women can't be friends (and it's usually men that I hear say this) I hear that women aren't interesting enough to spend time with unless there's sex involved. There's an attitude that a woman who spends time with a man she's not planning to sleep with is "leading him on"; she should know that he's not just interested in her conversational skills or kind heart.
the15th | 06.13.06 - 6:42 pm | #

Dawn, great writing. Vulnerable and real. Profound, too. I think this is the only way the world will listen reality, to truth, anymore. the morality is well and good to point to, but it's beside the point for those who are lonely enough to forsake what they believe in so they can find a little respite, a little pleasure, a little love and acceptance. The sad thing is that it doesn't work. God didn't saddle us with chastity but create us for fornication. We were created for chastity, and for the real joy of marital love. When we find that, we find home. Until then, our hearts continue to ache.

Thanks for posting a bit. Now I *GOTTA* buy it.

Warren
warren | Homepage | 06.13.06 - 7:45 pm | #

okay. next time I post, I promise to re-read what I write so it doesn't contain numerous typos. Anything weird implied from my previous post should be considered a typo. :-)
warren | Homepage | 06.13.06 - 7:46 pm | #

Beautifully done. It can't have been easy to bare your soul in your writing, but I'm glad you did. The simple truths. How come they're so hard to recognize?

Well, I was gonna buy it anyway, but thanks for sharing.
Robert N G | Homepage | 06.13.06 - 10:01 pm | #

Dawn,
I too am extremely impressed (and I just havta go out and get your book)!

It's rare and refreshing to see in print a description of men and relationships that doesn't reek of bitterness. True, too many men don't live up to your wonderful description, but as one who tries, I thank you!
joe | Homepage | 06.13.06 - 11:27 pm | #

Thanks so much, everyone. the15th, your comment means so much to me. I tried very hard not to make my book a soapbox for my politics. Anyone reading it is going to pick up that I adhere to traditional views on marriage and family, but I don't think that single women need or want to be preached at. I'm trying to approach the subject from a personal standpoint, showing how I've found that life as a marriage-minded single woman is more enjoyable, fulfilling, and hopeful when one doesn't follow the rules set forth by our popular culture.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 06.14.06 - 12:14 am | #

I admit, I am intrigued.
When I met my husband, I admit that one of the aspects I found most attractive about him was that he was definitely marriage-minded, even in the abstract (since he was only 20). And while he was certainly interested in sex (being a non-Chrisitan and all), he was definitely more interested in getting to know me, and spend time talking to me and doing things with me than most of the college boys I was used to dating.
L. | Homepage | 06.14.06 - 3:24 am | #

great excerpt; i placed an order for several on amazon last week when you first announced finding it there; i hope all of your faithful readers make it a large pre-issue item and get everyone else's attention. and we like the new improved softer version of 'the dawn'!
uncle jim | 06.14.06 - 6:54 am | #

Dawn wrote: "The biggest surprise for me has been discovering how much there is to like about men."

As a feminist I recognized - with little trouble at all - the arc of your experience which made possible your insight (above).

A great deal of this, though, is surely due to simple maturity?

Otherwise it confounds me how many of the narcissistic jerks - and they were! - I was passionately involved with went on to become the loving husbands and fathers they are today.

It takes time to develop the confidence to "commodify" yourself with dignity given the social pressures - and this goes for both genders.

But I can't regret the stepping stones, nor wish away my husband's romantic past. I see them as an inexorable part of growing up and discovering that what you wanted at 18 is different to what is wonderful, say, at 28.

After 19 years of marriage, I still hear the truth in John Donne's magnificent equivocation: "If ever any beauty I did see, /Which I desir'd, and got, t'was but a dreame of thee."
jody tresidder | 06.14.06 - 9:47 am | #

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "commodify," Jody. Could you explain?
Kate B. | Homepage | 06.14.06 - 10:59 am | #

Jody, I agree that maturity has a lot to do with my change in perspective. At the same time, age doesn't necessarily bring maturity; it requires insight. I had to do some living to understand as much as I do now-- but I don't think quite as much living was necessary. If, when I was in my 20s, someone had explained to me some of the things that I've written in my book, I think it would have helped me.

The John Donne quote is beautiful. I didn't realize you'd been married 19 years. Congratulations to you and your husband for that -- and for your impending 20th!
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 06.14.06 - 11:29 am | #

Uncle Jim, so you're the reader who made my Amazon ranking jump! Thank you so much for buying the book, and for all your encouragement and support.

(Note to other readers: Uncle Jim is not my uncle — but he is the uncle of a dear friend.)
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 06.14.06 - 11:32 am | #

L., you don't have to be a non-Christian to be interested in sex, I don't think.
As our esteemed hostess once put it, "Christians do it like bunnies!"
Robert N.G. | Homepage | 06.14.06 - 11:56 am | #

Kate B.
Dawn wrote: "When I had nonmarital sex, I became accustomed to seeing myself as a commodity a varied collection of looks, wit, intellect, and je ne sais quois. I looked for men whose commodities were worth as much as my own.Most of all, I looked for men whose commodities were readily apparent."

I was borrowing and extending Dawn's term, in the sense of traits that are superficially apparent; the ones you use to youthfully judge another's desirability or, indeed, glaring lack of it. (The ones that run counter to the dreary adult advice to "just be yourself"!. And the ones that prompt callow observations, like "she's out of my league" or "he's not worth bothering with"). As Dawn said "looks, wit, intellect" and the X factor of "je ne sais quoi".

Most of us don't suddenly drop these judgements, far from it. But with age and experience, we make a different list. Kindness may never have featured as a "sexy" attribute before. Now it does. Your own enthusiasm - which you thought made you terminally uncool, and which you never wholly convincingly squashed - is suddenly viewed as a rather charming characteristic.

I don't think you can ever get away from the "marketplace" analogies (hence "commodify"). It's just that confidence helps you set out your stall with more honesty than you did as a teenager.

Personally, I can't remember ever feeling quite as unrelaxed as I did in my late teens and early twenties.
jody tresidder | 06.14.06 - 12:21 pm | #

Dawn, you wrote: "I had to do some living to understand as much as I do now-- but I don't think quite as much living was necessary".

I can't possibly disagree with that one! In fact, if my older self could say one thing to my greener self, that would be it: and my younger self would have bounced back - typically intolerably -with: "but I have to find out for myself!"

Like many young people, I had an entirely self-serving view of empiricism.

And, yes, experience without insight is worth very little.

Thanks for your extremely kind-hearted comment about my 19 year marriage. That was lovely. (I always remind my husband that the point of that super Donne quote is his use of the PAST tense!).
jody tresidder | 06.14.06 - 1:15 pm | #

Dawn - this looks like a great thoughtful read. Thanks for opening yourself up.
FavoriteApron | Homepage | 06.14.06 - 2:08 pm | #

Jody--
Thank you for the clarification.
Kate B. | Homepage | 06.14.06 - 3:06 pm | #

Kate B.
Looking back, I should have made it clear that when I said the advice "just be yourself" was dreary, I meant that was how it sounds sometimes when you are young!
I think it's first rate counsel, but very hard to follow when you are not remotely sure who you are (yet).
jody tresidder | 06.14.06 - 3:57 pm | #

Beautiful writing Dawn. Very deep and insightful as well -- I look forward to buying it when it is published. Hang tough.

Oh, and The Left Banke were pop geniuses.
angelic doctor | 06.14.06 - 5:46 pm | #

Wow, I've been pondering this piece of writing for a while now...really fascinating! Dawn, since we went through adolescence around the same time -- late 70s and 80s -- my question to you is, do you feel that "The Thrill of the Chaste" may be seen as a backlash against many of the sex-oriented books, films and magazines that were popular, and that we undoubtedly (even eagerly!) absorbed, when we were growing up? For instance, I remember devouring books such as Erica Jong's "Fear of Flying," Nancy Friday's "The Secret Garden" and Philip Roth's "Portnoy's Complaint"; going to see movies like "Little Darlings" and "Grease," and earnestly studying, of course, Cosmopolitan (on their Web site at this moment: "Guy Candy Gallery,""Love in the Tub," "7 Ways to Make Him Ache for You" and "Orgasms Unlimited." LOL! 'Nuff said?) Regarding "the rules set forth by our popular culture," would you (and anyone else who cares to chime in) single out any particular books, magazines, movies or television shows from your childhood that you feel shaped your earlier (and now repudiated) views of male/female interaction and female sexuality in particular?
Sarah | 06.15.06 - 6:04 am | #

Sarah--

Well, Cosmo would be high on the list. When I was in junior high, my best friend's grandmother bought her Cosmo on a regular basis (we never figured out why), and we'd do the quizzes at sleepovers. Of course, sicne we weren't sexually active, most of them made no sense. One of my college friends later pinned down what it was about Cosmo that was hidden, yet drove every word on its pages: the philosophy that only power means anything, and sex is all about power. And never again did I pick up a Cosmo even out of boredom at the dentist's office.

My adolescence seems to have been a bit later than yours, and I read alot of "teen fiction" during the period. It made me feel terribly mature and important to read about people my age (well, slightly older) dealing with sex and violence. Authors like Judy Blume, Norma Fox Mazer, Robert Cormier (who was, in all honesty, the most violent, least sexual, and best writer of the bunch), Gordon Korman, et al. Quite a crazy view of sex as perfectly normal and yet terribly important (to have, anyway--otherwise, you wouldn't be normal).

And then there was high school.
Kate B. | Homepage | 06.15.06 - 9:00 am | #

Kate B., that's funny-- I *almost* mentioned Judy Blume!!! "Forever" seemed to be forever checked out of my elementary-school library. :) Haven't read your other authors but now I'm curious-- guess it's back to the teen section of the library for me (some 25 years later, LOL). Right, I remember those views-- one was definitely thought of as a loser and a social misfit if one didn't get rid of one's virginity ASAP. Actually, many kids may still think this way.

I give you a lot of credit for quitting Cosmo so soon...I only suddenly realized a couple of years ago that it no longer had any relevance whatsoever to my life. And besides, I feared that if I read the word "nooky" or "booty" one more time, I was gonna scream.... even if it was right in the dentist's office!!!!!!! :D
Thanks for your thoughts!
Sarah | 06.16.06 - 1:39 am | #

Interesting that the only comments here are glowing and positive - I'm guessing some judicious editing is being employed.

Mature people don't regard men as a life support system for a penis. I've had men friends all my life, cooks, mechanics, musicians, writers, builders - all kinds of guys (gay and straight) with all kinds of talents. I've had lovely platonic male friends, whom I've appreciated greatly. I particularly appreciate men who are good husbands, partners, and fathers.

What I see in your work is you working out your guilt (probably religious in nature)about sex and your extreme immaturity - and blaming it on society, dating, and anyone else who happens to be handy.

The wingers will love you. You'll be their short lived guru. And you'll fuel the sexual double standard and anti-woman stereotypes for years to come. Thanks so much.

Alex

PS - so, the only women who really love men are lesbians and nuns, right?
Smart Alex | 06.17.06 - 1:26 pm | #

Smart Alex, you're right in that I did edit out one commenter -- the one who signed himself DawnEdenIsAWhore. But if you think I'm preventing people from reading criticism of myself, you should read the three entries above this one, where I link to The News Blog's, Feministe's, and Eschaton's critiques of this entry.

If you comment again, do read the Harris Protocol, linked at left. Thank you.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 06.17.06 - 6:41 pm | #

Casual sex/Happy marriage is a false dichotomy, folks.
Natalia | Homepage | 06.17.06 - 6:59 pm | #

I feel like you are blaming the stereotypes of men on women and not on society itself. Most of the people who write and direct television shows and movies are men perpetuating their own stereotypes. It's great to realize that this is a bad thing, but it should be directed at men and women. Also, just because you treated the peoeplee you slept with nonmaritally like crap, doesn't mean the rest of us do.
Brianne | 06.18.06 - 3:05 pm | #

Brianne, sleeping with someone nonmaritally is treating them like crap. It's treating them like a means to an end — one's own pleasure — rather than as a human being created in God's image and deserving of committed love.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 06.18.06 - 3:15 pm | #

Do men who have premarital sex hate women?
maxanne | 06.19.06 - 12:20 pm | #

Maxanne, it depends on the man. I don't believe premarital sex is loving, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily an act of hatred. One can make a transaction in a shop without loving or hating the shopkeeper.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 06.19.06 - 12:21 pm | #

True enough. A lot of men hate and fear women, though their sexual orientation leads them to desire sex with females.
maxanne | 06.20.06 - 11:08 am | #

I find it interesting that you had to stop having prematital sex to see that men could be friends. I don't think the issue is prematital sex in gerneral but your issues with it and how it formed your view relationships.
g-daddy | 06.20.06 - 4:33 pm | #

Strange, don't most people sleep with someone AFTER being friends with them?
After getting to know them and realising what they mean to you?

I'm not Catholic or Christian, but I won't actually name my faith as the two afore mentioned religions have a tendency to rag on it.

But I'm not married, & I AM having sex.
With my fiance.
And we were before we were engaged.
But that's ONLY because I realised whay a wonderful person he was/is. Not a thing to do with appearance or anything sexual at all.

You said something that strikes a raw nerve with me... "I don't believe premarital sex is loving"
I just don't see how that could be.
Although there are quite a number of men who don't care for the women they sleep with (and vice versa) it just doesn't seem right to say that about all premarital sex.

"I love you" was said WAY before sex entered the picture in my relationship.
Hope | 06.20.06 - 8:15 pm | #

Hope, I'm happy for you that you're getting married. If you look at our society, premarital sex between two people who profess love for one another generally does not lead to marriage. There are also studies showing that couples who live together before marriage are more prone to divorce than couples who don't shack up.

I promise not to rag on you if you're Jewish. I am too.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 06.20.06 - 10:47 pm | #

Haha! Not Jewish. Wiccan.

We were 'together' before we knew we were going to get married also.
Hope | 06.21.06 - 7:20 pm | #

"Marriage is the process in which love ripens into vengeance."

-- Kipling

Who says all marital sex is loving? Your Catholic beliefs compromise your abilities to fairly critique male/female relationships.

You live, like most Catholic sheep (personally, I'm a renegade), in a world of extreme good and evil, black and white.

Premarital sex is evil only if marriage is truly an enlightened state. And I'm sorry, I know more people unhappily married than married.
devore | 06.27.06 - 2:52 pm | #

WHOA! I wonder that people are trying to justify something they inherently know is a moral wrong? I used to do the same thing. I knew it was wrong but I figured that I could somehow rationalize my way into making it right for ME (duh, relativism anyone?). I view people who are graced with patience until marriage as such an ideal for our society and the TRUE renegades!
laura | Homepage | 06.28.06 - 12:58 am | #

Dawn,

All I can say is WOW...you are really a gem. So many folks on the net are just so darn "Liberal" in this aspect
and not realizing what I've known for a long time.

I only hope, and I'm almost 50, that one of these days I will find someone as cute and smart as you:)

Best wishes,

Ed
P. Edward Murray | 06.28.06 - 1:04 am | #

Laura, I agree about the true renegades!

Ed, I have no doubt you'll meet your intended. The right woman will be thankful to find a man who has strong moral values.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 06.28.06 - 1:08 am | #

Dawn,

My thanks:)

Ed
P. Edward Murray | 06.28.06 - 1:31 am | #

And Dawn,

Women do have a power over men too but I guess most of the time they really don't let on.
P. Edward Murray | 06.29.06 - 2:39 pm | #

Saw your article in the NCR. I can't wait to get your book, then pass it on to my 19-year-old niece. I lived the life you write about. I'll do everything I can to help her avoid a life of non-marital sex. No one should go through such abuse of self and others. Thanks for writing this book!
Eugenia | 07.14.06 - 9:31 pm | #

Thanks so much, Eugenia!
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 07.14.06 - 11:14 pm | #

Dawn,
I just came upon this and I am totally interested in this book.

I think it will be a good read for those of us who HAVE NOT had pre-marital sex mostly because of the societal expectations to be like the Sex and the City Gang. It's such pressure! Can't wait to read it.
CatholicYouthMinister | Homepage | 09.15.06 - 4:00 pm | #