I swear, I'm getting more and more Catholic every day:)

Though I do love 7 rounds of awesome God. He is awesome, after all!
Nathan Sheets | Homepage | 08.31.07 - 1:03 pm | #

I swear, I'm getting more and more Catholic every day:)

My plan is working!

Though I do love 7 rounds of awesome God. He is awesome, after all!

That He is. But five rounds is enough to put me under the table. Or the bed, as it were.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 08.31.07 - 1:10 pm | #

Well, I am about as charismatic as it gets. I even sometimes pull out my banner and wave it around for Him.

I don't know if you would like him, but there is a really good worship leader named Paul Wilbur who does awesome Messianic worship. His website is at http://www.wilburministries.com/

Now this is what I'm talking about!
Nathan Sheets | Homepage | 08.31.07 - 1:13 pm | #

P.S. As a Catholic, you might want to listen to the YouTube link rather than watch it! :-D
Nathan Sheets | Homepage | 08.31.07 - 1:18 pm | #

Nathan, I'm very happy that Wilbur and others are helping to lead Jews to their Messiah. But seeing the men in tallit blowing shofarim reminds me why I was uneasy with Messianic Judaism. The most polite way I can put it is that all that liturgical mix-and-match makes my head spin.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 08.31.07 - 1:31 pm | #

Oh yeah... Sexy... That's what it's always been about... /sarc off.
Seraphic Single | Homepage | 08.31.07 - 1:57 pm | #

"God is not freaked out" by sex.

I dare say. But--I'll try to put this as delicately as possible--there are no doubt many things by which God is not freaked out, and yet are not displayed in churches.
Maclin Horton | Homepage | 08.31.07 - 2:32 pm | #

It's all about being cute and shocking folks to get their attention. Too many churches are getting their cues from MTV! Many churches are from the denomination: What's Happening!
Ted
Ted | Homepage | 08.31.07 - 2:41 pm | #

Dawn: I just think of it as a Hebrew roots kind of thing. I, too, am weary of Messianic Judaism, and I don't actually think that Paul Wilbur follows that particular belief (from what I've read). What I do like about his music, however, are the Old Testament praises. I'm all about praise right now. I'm done with the songs of "praise" seen in many churches these days where it's "all about Him" but quite obviously all about us. Can't we focus on the Lord for just five minutes without adding something about us in there?

I don't know what a Catholic mass is like, so I can't speak for those. The only mass I went to was in Switzerland, and it was done in Italian. :)

Nate
Nathan Sheets | Homepage | 08.31.07 - 3:03 pm | #

*sigh* You have to love evangelical churches and their sincere desire to bring people to Christ, even when the ways they do it are so often... silly. This is an object lesson taken to an extreme.

I know people do get something out of things like that. And I could certainly understand using visual aids. But notice that at the front of the church is a stage, not an alter or an iconostasis. When churches are not grounded in the timeless and ancient forms of worship, they are always looking for something new and exciting to keep people interested. They believe that the culture and people they are trying to reach get bored quickly. And they're probably right.

And while I do find this example to be rather ridiculous, I really do appreciate the zeal and dedication that churches like this one have to reaching the lost and helping them to understand that God cares about how we live and act. Having grown up in a church like this, I know the intent is genuine and the love for God real. Do I agree with stunts like this? No, and I think they are a pale imitation of the depth of understanding available, if one knows where to look. But I believe that the people involved are doing their best with what they know. Even if it does turn out to be somewhat embarassing.
Lucy | 08.31.07 - 3:04 pm | #

And by the way, in actual relation to your post, these kinds of things are what make my heart grieve for the protestant church. Reading this post is almost as painful as reading THE MESSAGE Bible.

I would dare say that these kinds of things make sex LESS sacred, not more. We don't really need to be open with sex—it's a private thing married adults do. It's not that difficult either. Why do we need to remind people over and over again that "God is not afraid of it"?
Nathan Sheets | Homepage | 08.31.07 - 3:05 pm | #

OK, OK, one more thing: How much you wanna bet that this church doesn't even TOUCH the issue that most protestants need a wake-up call on? Contraception?

Perhaps they should pass out "Does The Birth Control Pill Cause Abortions?" by Randy Alcorn and see how their membership grows!
Nathan Sheets | Homepage | 08.31.07 - 3:06 pm | #

Nate, if you can make it to Seattle, I'll be happy to take you to Mass. I'm going there in May to speak to the Seattle Chesterton Society, plus there's talk of having me speak in January or February at Seattle University. (Yes, Seattle in January or February -- such is the touring author's life [and I wouldn't trade it for anything]!)
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 08.31.07 - 3:25 pm | #

I echo the sighs. *sigh*. The all-too-typical, brainless, marketing driven side of Evangelicalism. I say that as one with many friends who are evangelical and would also shake their heads over this.

Regarding "Awesome God" - the only way I'd sing multiple verses of it is if Rich Mullins were singing. It's strange to me how one bad song out of many brilliant ones became a megahit.
JV | Homepage | 08.31.07 - 3:33 pm | #

To be honest, JV, it's not really a bad song. Like a lot of songs people love to hate ("American Pie," "Piano Man"), it's a decent song that is insidiously catchy -- and is disliked because people abuse it.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 08.31.07 - 4:29 pm | #

"and is disliked because people abuse it."

Yeah, we Catholics don't have any songs like that. : )
Andy | 08.31.07 - 4:32 pm | #

Well, I think Christians can and should talk about sex in an appropriate time and manner. I don't think talking about it in a church service is appropriate, however. Neither is advertising it with provocative slogans and images even if the teachings are intended to promote marital relations exclusively. These sermons or whatever they are should be relegated to extra-worship classes/Bible studies.
Jason | Homepage | 08.31.07 - 5:46 pm | #

*sigh,* *sigh,* *sigh.*
-- and everything Lucy said...

God bless the Evangelicals... they are doing the Lord's work and surely they are guided by the Holy Spirit.

But Biblical worship involves an altar, and a sacrifice; a priest, and receiving Jesus under the appearance of bread and wine.

For Scripure lovers (and you know we all are!), here's some instruction from Paul. Catholics live this Scripture as we worship at every Mass.

1 Cor 10:
23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.
Del | 08.31.07 - 6:25 pm | #

I, for one, like 'Piano Man.'
Dave G. | 08.31.07 - 8:25 pm | #

Personally, I've gotta hand it to our Evangelical brethren/sistren for TRYING, for being in it/out there, for stepping up in the cultural marketplace to compete with the 800-lb. gorilla-sized messages...even if it sometimes results in stuff like this. Maybe this is effective...and since their faith tradition is already performance-oriented rather than sacramentally oriented, why not freshen up the act to address what's needed most? It was the Prods who came up with "True Love Waits" and other such initiatives...while the Church has "left sex ed to the parents," promulgated beautiful and mystical encyclicals, and left pro-chastity activism to the EWTN media-pro types who preach to the choir. I'm the Godmother of New York Snark, but I'll hold off snarking on this one; I salute them for a bold effort, even one that might (or, for all we know, might not) miss the mark.
Brenda from Flatbush | Homepage | 08.31.07 - 10:36 pm | #

I'm not sure if this church would call itself Evangelical. It seems to be more part of the "emergent" church movement, which tries to present itself as more with-it.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 08.31.07 - 10:44 pm | #

Does he jump up and down on the bed while making emphatic remarks? Otherwise, the bed's kind of wasted.
EileenR | 08.31.07 - 10:56 pm | #

Ok, before we all beat up on Evangelicals...
I've met some Catholics who are all hot-to-trot on literature inspired by the JPII Theology of the Body Lectures. And they freak me out just about as much as this sort of bed-on-the-pulpit thing does. Their eyes get all glittery and they tell people... details.
You know you've gone too far with the whole sex and Catholicism union (ha ha) when you talk about certain things outside the bedroom, and outside of a clinical setting.
Best advice I've heard on the topic- even if you have 10 kids, you should keep people guessing as to how they got here. Ain't no bedroom big enough for all of us- thankfully! So keep us out of it.
Benedicamus | Homepage | 08.31.07 - 11:27 pm | #

I've met some Catholics who are all hot-to-trot on literature inspired by the JPII Theology of the Body Lectures. And they freak me out just about as much as this sort of bed-on-the-pulpit thing does. Their eyes get all glittery and they tell people... details.

Um....eewww. I've never met any people like this, but hearing about them just made me shudder. I guess I'm a prude after all.
L. | Homepage | 09.01.07 - 12:29 am | #

kinda would rather hear "Awesome God" sung by worshipful masses, than the snoring heard during a Gregorian chant at Mass.
Michael | Homepage | 09.01.07 - 8:19 am | #

Michael

Oh puh-lease! I would rather have Gregorian chant in the background so I can concentrate on the purpose of Mass rather than being "entertained". If people are snoring during Gregorian Chant at Mass they are either suffering from severe lack of sleep, didnt have their coffee in the morning or they have no idea of what is actually happening in the Mass. How could anyone sleep through something so amazing??
londongirl | 09.01.07 - 9:30 am | #

I was raised Protestant and it was these kinds of clueless acts that influenced me to leave the church, forget about Christianity and spend more than 25 years studying comparative religion (I.E. flit around ffrom one Eastern religion to another in good old New Age style.)

What I DID like about Christianity was smothered in these kinds of "modern" approaches.

For some reason I had a blind spot w/ Catholicism, which a few years back the "Scales fell from my eyes" so to speak and I saw the Church for what it was. Authentic, original Christianity.

The study of the fathers of the church and early Christianity was the single most amazing moment of studying all those religions. I haven't looked back since.

The point of all this is that while these kinds of efforts may be getting Christianity through to some it is also very polarizing -against- Christianity for others.
Paul | 09.01.07 - 10:06 am | #

London Girl,
as a convert, I must say I am hard pressed to find that many cradle Catholics who know exactly what the Mass is about, and it is a tad presumptuous to think all folks singing worship are only trying to be entertained.

Of course I am a bit touchy, as "Awesome God" was written by the late great Rich Mullins, one of the truest Christian musicians in recent years.
Michael | Homepage | 09.01.07 - 10:37 am | #

The point of all this is that while these kinds of efforts may be getting Christianity through to some it is also very polarizing -against- Christianity for others.

This is true -- but it's also true of any kind of religious worship or practice. What resonates with some will repel others.

Anything that brings people closer to God is okay with me (though I have to say, despite my secular liberal social views, I far prefer Gregorian chants -- or even "American Pie" -- to "Awesome God").
L. | Homepage | 09.01.07 - 11:05 am | #

Londongirl, while it took me a while to appreciate Gregorian chant, I agree that "snoring" is an extreme reaction. I would think that someone who wanted to experience worship as did the Church fathers would appreciate Gregorian chant at least for the sense of historical continuity that it imparts -- though they might not want to hear it throughout every Mass.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 09.01.07 - 11:13 am | #

"This is true -- but it's also true of any kind of religious worship or practice. What resonates with some will repel others."


I just don't see any evidence that the early church made clowns of themselves as well as the worship service in the process of getting the message across.

Christians have had to say "Hard things" that the world might have a hard time dealing with, the Eucharist for example, since the beginning. There's no doubt that certain things will be repellant and polarizing to some, but still need to be said...

That is entirely different than advertising "Bringing sexy back".

"Sexy" doesn't need to be brought back, especially in early 21st century America. Is anyone fooled by a church advertising this way?

Should we hold up used underwear in church to prove that we are not squeamish about the human body like Christians are sometimes stereotyped?

I would prefer to bring dignity back.
Paul | 09.01.07 - 12:28 pm | #

I would prefer to bring dignity back.

Fine -- but you don't speak for everyone's preferences. That's why there are so many different approaches to worship.

There's no doubt that certain things will be repellant and polarizing to some, but still need to be said...

True enough, and to a certain extent, there's a consensus on what these things are. But there are other things that fall into a more gray area, and I think the role of sexuality is one of them. I mean that in a general way, encompassing all world religions that have different views on sexuality -- I don't mean Catholicism in particular (obviously). I don't think you would ever see a banner like that in front of a Catholic church.
L. | Homepage | 09.01.07 - 12:49 pm | #

"Fine -- but you don't speak for everyone's preferences. That's why there are so many different approaches to worship."


And none of these different approaches can be critiqued?

I don't presume to speak for everyone. I'm also not against different approaches.

Even within Catholicism you can have Tridentine to Taize, Charismatic to Very quiet. But none of these approaches compromises dignity while allowing for different temperments.

I'm also not questioning addressing "The role of sexuality" but a bed on the pulpit, a lame
reference to popular song, and a obviously misplaced sense of trying to be shocking ("A sermon on sex in church???? gasp!)

What I'm saying is that there is evidence of certain cultural differences in the early church related to their geography, but I have a hard time imagining a "Hey we're not totally against Bacchanalia's!" attempt to be popular among early Christians.
Paul | 09.01.07 - 2:40 pm | #

I don't think talking about [sex] in a church service is appropriate

Well, when such talk has the effect of dragging the faith down to the level of the world's seemly idea of sex, no, it is not appropriate. But when, instead of diminishing and profaning the faith, human sexuality is raised up to its proper spiritual and divine level, then it is perfectly appropriate. Sex, as created and envisioned by God, is not dirty -- it is only the world that makes it dirty. God made sex a good thing; it was only when Adam and Eve ate the fruit that they started being ashamed of their nakedness and corrupted what He had created as good.

As for the idea that talk about human sexuality only belongs in the bedroom, well, the bedroom is not a God-free zone. It is not a place where you leave the faith hanging on a peg outside the door. Sexuality is an intrinsic and fundamental part of being a human person, and it is one of the first commandments given to us by God. It is incumbent upon the Church to discuss it and for us to be guided by the Magisterium in this regard. Besides, we can all see for ourselves how successful not talking about sexuality has been.
Bender | Homepage | 09.01.07 - 2:47 pm | #

Look, Pange Lingua sticks in your head, too, but it sure as heck is a whole lot more theologically enriching and profound than "Awesome!"
Robert N G | Homepage | 09.01.07 - 4:41 pm | #

And just to be the gnat in the soup...you may be overlooking the fact that in spite of some serious 'lacunae' in their theology, they are onto something--in the theology of the body sense.

While the bed in the pulpit (or 'stage' as the case may be) may be too visual for Catholic sensibilities, sexual union in marriage IS the icon of the Trinity; the strongest word God said about his having wed the human race: 'This is my body, given up for you.' The altar is where the cosmic nuptials are consummated.

In view of that, I think that we could meaningfully say that JPII 'brought sexy back' to the Catholic Church.

Having said all that, I would not like to find a bed for an object lesson at the front of St. Teresa's tomorrow.
Carole | 09.01.07 - 4:41 pm | #

Michael

My family are converts so I sympathise with your doubts about cradle Catholics. I also don't even know the song "Awesome God" so I'm not going to comment on whether it is appropriate or not.
I have sung in many choirs in Masses and Protestant services and while it maybe generalising to say that all Praise and Worship music is about entertainment I have to say that I've found much of it to be that way. I also, by the way, had a major problem when one Cathedral choir I was in started to become all about performance practice for the soloists to sing their Ave Maria's and the like. Though I am a musician I often like to attend Mass without music for this very reason.

I do like Gregorian Chant by the way but it is not my favourite and I would not like it for every Mass.

Michael I did not mean I personal attack on the music you like for Mass but I did find your original comment to be very personal and quite ignorant of a type of music that while is not your favourite, is supposed to take pride of place in Catholic liturgies (or so said Vatican 2 anyway).
londongirl | 09.01.07 - 7:25 pm | #

Londongirl, for your benefit, here is Michael W. Smith performing "Awesome God."

The song also has verses, but most people don't know them. Kind of like "American Pie" again.

If you forsake Gregorian chant for Rich Mullins, I take no responsibility.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 09.01.07 - 7:34 pm | #

And none of these different approaches can be critiqued?

Didn't mean to imply that they couldn't be. That's exactly what blogs like this are for.
L. | Homepage | 09.01.07 - 8:51 pm | #

This is so funny!!!! tasteless but funny! It made me think of the Monty Python sex-ed sketch!!!
lar | 09.01.07 - 10:24 pm | #

Cut us Protestants a break...it wouldn't hurt Catholics to practice a little grace.
Brian | 09.01.07 - 11:17 pm | #

I'm sorry if anything I wrote offended you, Brian. I didn't mean to encourage Protestant-bashing.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 09.01.07 - 11:32 pm | #

Don't worry Brian. When Catholic parishes engage in silly gimmicks and theatrics, and a number of them do, we critically comment on them too.

And merely calling something a silly gimmick when it is, in fact, a silly gimmick, such that it detracts from the faith, is not a practice lacking in charity, but is an act of truth, which is often the most charitable thing you can be. True, we should not mock and ridicule, but it is not wrong to call a thing what it truly is.
Bender | Homepage | 09.02.07 - 12:08 am | #

Thank you, Dawn, for your understanding. Having been a reader for several months now, this post was the first time that I felt like there was an anti-Protestant
flavor.

Not only am I a reader, I greatly support your mission to reach the students of Catholic colleges and universities (as well as non-Catholic ones)with the chastity message. In fact, I look forward to your appearance at Appalachian State University (the one that shocked Michigan yesterday in football) on September 18 in Boone, NC.
Brian Lowe | Homepage | 09.02.07 - 7:54 am | #

Brian, if you want to see evidence of Bender's claim that "(w)hen Catholic parishes engage in silly gimmicks and theatrics....we critically comment on them too," -- see below:

http://www.dawneden.com/2006/11/...her- barney.html

I've never noticed what I would call real Protestant-bashing on this blog (though perhaps just a wee bit of cradle-Catholic bashing now and then, but we probably deserve it). :)
L. | Homepage | 09.02.07 - 12:41 pm | #

Thanks, L.! Sorry about the cradle-Catholic bashing.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 09.02.07 - 5:09 pm | #

I look forward to your appearance at Appalachian State University (the one that shocked Michigan yesterday in football)

OK, I wasn't bashing you before, but if you are going to bring that game up, I can certainly start!

(And for the record, nothing shocks a Michigan fan anymore. Year after year after year, they look for more and more ways to blow it.)
Bender | Homepage | 09.02.07 - 5:41 pm | #

was reading this article that says there was a bed on the pulpit, you meant stage, right? Don't think Linn has ever used a pulpit. One thing everyone is missing, including the newspaper is that Linn buys all of his sermon series. I think this one is an old Ed Young series (if I remember right, Linn is even using exactly the same props i.e. beds). Do a little research and you'll find it to be true of nearly all of Cornerstone's sermons for years. Linn is a good presenter though.
ok | 09.02.07 - 8:06 pm | #

Interesting, ok, thanks. I was being generous when I said "pulpit."
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 09.02.07 - 8:17 pm | #

Someone earlier had mentioned that the protestants needed a lesson on contraceptive. I believe the last statistic I read had catholics outcontracepting the general public at like a 70%+ rate(if I remember correctly I read this in a One More Soul brochure).
Mandi | 09.07.07 - 11:26 am | #

Yes, another example of the PoMo's(post-modern) embracing the market driven, seeker sensitive church movement. The church has become saturated and overwhelmed by the culture, rather than set apart to influence the culture. Just as Madison Avenue uses all things carnal to sell their product, so too is the PoMo church using whatever means are necessary to sell their product...the Gospel. Most disconcerting is that the Gospel is now being compromised, watered-down and repackaged to suit the whims over an ever more finicky generation who was raised under the banner of instant, personal gratification. An absolutely deadly combination.

Thanks for posting this.
Everyday Mommy | Homepage | 09.08.07 - 10:39 am | #

oh goodness, I was hoping this was a joke!! We really don't need 'more sexy', rolling my eyes here...We got tired of seeing so much skin every Sunday at our mainstream church..it's all so very sad.

and I hear you about the 7 choruses of Awesome God, one day we went thru like 10 minutes of singing the phrase "You are holy" and after a while I got the giggles, in my head I was hearing God with a jewish accent saying. "o.k, o.k, I get it already..."

have to say we high-tailed it out of there finally.

the bed on the stage would have had us heading for the parking lot.

this just makes me really sad.
Jenny in Ca | Homepage | 09.09.07 - 7:43 pm | #

and may i add that listening to ANY pastor preach about how great sex is makes me cringe, regardless of how big or little the...ahem..bed may be.
Elizabeth | 09.11.07 - 4:41 pm | #

All this gossip is not exactly Christ-like behavior....
Ryan | 04.29.08 - 2:40 pm | #