Well, those comments should shatter any illusions anyone may still have about Canadians being nice! (And I say that as one...)

Dawn, I know I sure couldn't have remained as calm facing that kind of vitriol as you have. And even in the face of harassment, you manage to pull out the punny headlines. You must have lots of people praying for you!
Frank | 04.29.08 - 11:47 pm | #

Dawn - kids like these are why I hated high school and why I would NEVER do the particular work you do, unless my salvation absolutely depended on it.

I'm of the strong opinion that HCC needs to step up its English courses, especially in the areas of grammar, spelling, and vocabulary...

I will be praying for you and for these potty-mouth students.
Embarrassed in Ontario | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 12:10 am | #

Good for you, Dawn, for turning the other cheek, and not stooping to their level of incivility -- perhaps, by your example, you taught even those who didn't embrace your message something about manners.
L. | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 12:23 am | #

Thanks, all!
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 12:24 am | #

Was their a pig's head on a pole that perhaps you might have missed on the way into the presentation? That might have served as some kind of warning. Though a couple of references to 1984, even if slightly misrepresented, is somewhat hopeful.
Pat Patterson | 04.30.08 - 12:33 am | #

I've been thinking that one thing that may have contributed to these outpourings is the cultural disconnect between Canadian and American Catholicism, and between Canadian and American politics as well.

First, there is no real Canadian equivalent to the "culture wars" in the US, and their red state/blue state geographical divisions. Second, even devout Canadian Catholics are far less likely to associate political conservatism with Catholicism than are their American brethren. Politically, many of them are still rather like American Catholics circa 1965.

This is a subtle point, and hard to explain because I expect you didn't make any direct political references in your talks. But, for example, statistics like the fact that those who are sexually active being less likely to graduate from high school, have a political element in them. They are a commonplace to American conservative thinkers (and I don't doubt that there's some truth in that one) but they have simply not been part of our political culture here, in part because we have considerably lower rates of teen pregnancy.

And the final issue - though none of these students appears to have raised it directly - may be the fact that Canadians often have an intense, visceral distaste for any hint of criticism from an American, even if the criticism has nothing to do with their nationality. I don't mean that you shouldn't have made any criticisms, just that this attitude is common here.

I was distressed and embarrassed as a Canadian to read their vitriol, but a few of them seem to be backing off, and perhaps it wasn't wise to post the pictures, so I'm glad you took them down. Still, I'm sorry it turned out to be an ordeal for you.
alias clio | 04.30.08 - 1:06 am | #

It's too bad that mention of "renewal in Christ" would fall on such deaf ears and stony hearts - at a Catholic school. Almight God, bring the rain, soften the hard ground and convert hearts. Through the prayers of Mary Immaculate and Dawn's patron, St. Max.
John | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 2:00 am | #

Welcome to Ontario's public Catholic School system. (Even Archbishop Miller- Vatican guy for Catholic Education- refers to it as an example of failure to remain faithful through compromising...and he's a former student!).

I'm sure not all schools could be that bad, however, in previous 'news archive searching' (on another matter) it seemed like the London Board might be one of the best!

What were the reactions in the other schools?
lwestin | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 2:08 am | #

I'm of the strong opinion that HCC needs to step up its English courses, especially in the areas of grammar, spelling, and vocabulary...

Yes, I found this deliciously ironic. Many of them complained that Dawn's presentation was lacking. Yet, their disjointed rantings were to be taken very seriously. Forgot the grammar, spelling and vocabulary; find a way to make a coherent point.
Amy K. | 04.30.08 - 2:25 am | #

Although I will say, two of them did use sentences and paragraphs correctly and managed to arrange their thoughts in a cognizable manner. Even though I disagreed with their points, that was much appreciated you two. I think it was hccstudent and Annie.
Amy K. | 04.30.08 - 2:28 am | #

Dawn, search your heart and ask if you really needed to quote all of those obnoxious student comments. Is the point of this post to apologize and explain, or to hold HCC students up for ridicule?
Joan | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 2:35 am | #

I mention the following because it is relevant to the broader Catholic context in Canada, of which the state of the faith as it is taught (or not) in Catholic schools is a part. . .

A handful of years ago, I attended a conference of priests that was hosted in a prominent Canadian city. I was one of the few laymen there among a crowd of clerics. I worked for a Catholic non-profit at the time and was there to represent them. One of the keynote speakers was a Canadian bishop (I'll refrain from saying who). Amidst an otherwise forgettable speech, this bishop actually made fun of the sacrament of penance. I couldn't believe my ears. But it is true. I took notes at the event. I was so shocked and dismayed I'll never forget it. His tone was most definitely of belittling Catholics who are frequent confession-goers. This, coming from a bishop--a successor of the Apostles--to a gathering of priests who are themselves the ministers of the sacrament of penance as well as penitents. It was unbelievable. Even though I was aware things were bad in some episcopal circles, I would never have imagined hearing a bishop publicly ridicule a sacrament of Christ if I had not personally witnessed it.

This did not make any news that I noticed (Catholic or secular) because the specific talk at which this occurred if memory serves me was closed to the media. And there was definitely an aura of "in-the-family" confidentiality present, though nothing to this effect had been stated.

I don't say this to try to denigrate a particular bishop or the episcopacy overall. And hopefully this was not characteristic of Canadian bishops in general. But, at least going by this one event it does suggest that the level of denigration of the Catholic faith that at least one Canadian bishop not only tolerates but personally participates in, is beyond anything I could imagine seeing in the U.S. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think even the least magisterially supportive American bishops would ever stoop to the level of mocking a sacrament before a gathering of priests. I wouldn't have much hope for the quality of religious instruction in Catholic schools under a bishop such as this.

I should also report, thankfully, that the gathered priests did not seem to share the bishop's sentiments. They were unresponsive to this portion of the talk. And I could tell that at least a few of them were quite disturbed and perhaps embarrassed at these remarks. Pray to God this was an anomaly of one and not likely to be found among other Canadian bishops, nor any other bishops anywhere.
Scott J | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 2:48 am | #

As a Canadian, I'm rather embarrassed by the reaction of the students. Though, I guess I should be even more embarrassed as a Catholic.

It looks to me like your initial assessment was correct and that these students were probably more hostile to your message than most. I've only seen your talks online, but what I've seen has been intelligible and focused. I think the students just immediately went on the defensive and then heard what they wanted to hear.

Also, as someone stated above, there was probably a latent anti-Americanism as well.
George G. | 04.30.08 - 3:11 am | #

I can't speak to Dawn's personal motivations, but I do think that there is a potentially positive purpose (not the only one) to Dawn's posting the students' hostile comments.

And that is to reveal just how far some teenagers have descended into a completely self-absorbed world. We catch a glimpse here of the trajectory of their uncivil, inhuman, animalistic, irrational, heartless, amoral hedonism. This is not the case, I am sure, with most young people. But there is a minority whose level of immature pleasure-seeking, devoid of any moral framework other than to "do what you feel like," is going to produce future manifestations of indifference and an absence of responsibility to society that will shock even those who read the news today.

It's already happening. Notice the increasingly senseless, violent, and cruel things done by younger and younger kids. The same circle of kids who brag shamelessly and triumphantly about how sex is fun and impudently tell adults to mind their own business are, I am certain, developing the same sort of spiritual deformations that will result some day in a teen who can't see any reason to restrain himself from wanting to shoot his grandparents in a fit of rebellious rage.

I think this is instructive because it is all too easy as adults to go about our business, ignorant of what happens in our school systems. We too easily allow the shaping of the mores of the young to remain exclusively the purview of professional educators. Many adults don't know just how bad things have become in some schools. In the future when these kids are preying on the most vulnerable and helpless members of society simply for their own kicks, with no compunction, it will be too late.

My parents are both lifelong teachers. And the changes they have witnessed toward a greater and greater level of self-absorption and callousness among (especially teenage) students is very disturbing. I speak here of a minority of students, yet, the degree of heartlessness toward other human beings of a small portion of them will reap untold and lasting damage to human society far beyond their numbers. Some of the kids who responded so inappropriately to Dawn, I fear, if they do not change course, may be among this lot. And it is good for the adults in the world not to be ignorant of this growing disaster.

So, shouldn't we all ask ourselves, what could I be doing to help prevent the kids within my own sphere of influence from becoming so lacking in the fundamental character essential to embracing an authentically full and truly human life? We know that such kids as wrote to Dawn with such vitriol, without serious transformation, and despite their smug self-righteousness, are headed for a life of deep spiritual confusion and joylessness. It will take much more from society than a few talks in high schools by courageous people like Dawn to reverse this poisonous trend (though this is important work!).

May we all beg God to love our youth enough to get more involved. The enemy of Christ is forever active using every tool he can to ensnare more kids into empty lifestyles. We must beg our Lord to give us the grace to actively oppose him at every turn and never give up.
Scott J | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 4:07 am | #

I don't see any problem with Dawn posting the students' comments--they're all in the combox for everyone to read anyway--and I think what's posted is pretty representative of what's in the combox.

Also, I have no problem with ridiculing the ridiculous.
George G. | 04.30.08 - 4:42 am | #

If anything should prove an embarrassment to the school and the teachers, it must be those letters which you were so courageous to print. I think you mentioned that a good portion of students there are non-Catholic--I guess I'm glad of that; they certainly do not have Catholic viewpoints.

Ironic that earlier this year you spoke about the scandalous actions of the president of my own alma mater, Holy Cross College in Worcester, Massachusetts. These institutions seem to be trampling on the Cross instead of raising it.
Bud | 04.30.08 - 6:41 am | #

"You said you'd missed your chance to have kids? Good. You would only f-ck them up."

Sounds like this one didn't need your help on that path.
I agree that there's hope if they know things like 1984. Maybe they'll see some of the parallels in national school systems controlling thought.
Andy | 04.30.08 - 7:32 am | #

I think there are several things going on within the students' remarks. The remarks are without civility, sure. Also, they don't know how to enter into someone else's subjectivity. They see themselves as subjects, but they do not see others as subjects. They see others as objects.

We know that Dawn is a subject, and when she writes her impressions of things, she writes them in her subjectivity. This is also how she approaches her experience of sexuality, not by telling other people what they ought or ought not do, but by speaking from her own experience as a subject. She tries to write about her impressions, and has experience as a journalist in doing it.

Adolescents, by and large, find it difficult to recognize the subjectivity of other people. Most of them have been taught something like good manners to prevent them from doing to much damage by their inability to see things from someone else's point of view. But some can't do it. In most social circumstances, fear of immediate consequences might make them think twice about spewing vitriol at everything that discomforts them for 15 minutes, but in the magical world of Internet, there are no consequences.

As to teachers agreeing with them, it's possible that teachers didn't like the talk for any number of reasons. When I was a public school teacher, I hated all mandatory assemblies equally. It meant messing up my lesson plans. It meant being a chaperon in a gymnasium full of kids, most of whose names I did not know, and it meant inconveniencing me personally in several other little ways. The "Don't Do Drugs" speaker was disliked by me as much as the "You Can Do It" speaker. It almost NEVER had anything to do with the content of the presentation. And if it did, it had more to do with my opinion of the best way to deliver that information. The really pumped-up weightlifting motivational speakers just weren't my thing. Sure, "Achieve Your Dreams" is a fine message, but maybe I'm not into weightlifting.

The students, on the other hand, might not have the subtlety to sort out the possible meanings of a teacher's comments. Suppose a teacher said, "Well, that was a waste of time." That teacher could mean anything from, "I'm not going to stop having sex with my boyfriend, and I don't like it when people make me question my own choices" to "I really needed to get this exam material handled this week and now we're behind."

Ok, gotta get ready for morning prayer and mass. I hope the haters from the HCC don't mind someone remembering them in prayer. And in the same breath as someone praying for Dawn too.
Dcn. Dennis | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 7:50 am | #

Without exception, they all used bad grammar and poor English. When I receive emails like that, I simply delete them. I'd suggest you give those comments all the attention due - and just forget them.
CuriousFeller | 04.30.08 - 8:45 am | #

Oh, Dawn....this was painful to read. I've given chastity talks to high school groups, and know firsthand the outright and seething hostility one faces when giving such a blatant counter-cultural message - one's own witness to the joy of chastity. I have always known that the hostility was there even before I was introduced to speak a word - right away the message threatens all they know (which isn't much and which is already severely corrupted and distorted).

I think what chastity educators provoke (and not deliberately, but rather by virtue of the message itself) is a sense of guilt or confusion deep in these kids' hearts. We threaten their own sense of self, however immature and bungled, and they respond with daggers in their eyes. They completely miss the love and promise of joy that's being held out to them.

I am so sorry you encountered this reaction, but my prayer is that God will continue to work grace into their hearts and minds, and that over time (His time) they will come to understand the meaning of your message.

Don't personalize this - Christ has already taken it all for you. My hope is that in 20 years, there will be at last one of them who will be giving chastity talks, and they'll open it up by saying, "20 years ago, this crazy lady spoke at my high school, and I thought she was nuts...."

God works in mysterious ways!
rebecca | 04.30.08 - 8:52 am | #

Having given talks to students in American Catholic parishes and schools (on Confession, not Chastity), I can't say I'm terribly surprised.

While the majority of students listen and are polite and try to follow their faith, I have encountered many who have lashed out -seemingly at me, but it's really their perception of the Church.

There are a lot of layers to the vitriol expressed in these student posts. I can't even begin to scratch the surface, but I give Dawn her props in responding so calmly.

Up until now, Dawn, you've given your talks to young adults of the 20, 30 and 40 age range. Taking it to this younger set brings a new set of challenges!

Hang tough!
June | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 9:10 am | #

Sometimes the people who lash out the hardest are the ones who are in the deepest denial and know that what they are doing is wrong but don't want to change so they attack the messenger that is calling them to change...

I agree with a lot of the commenters who mentioned the lack of grammar, spelling and cohesive thought in their missives. I find it deplorable that High School students are unable to write and compose coherently! And then they wonder why they can't find/hold jobs after graduation?!? Also the level of vitriol and hate in the messages is very disturbing. Truly a sign of the times when you see high school students who can't write or spell telling you you're in the wrong b/c they don't agree with your thoughts and beliefs...talk about moral relativism...
sam | 04.30.08 - 9:23 am | #

Joan asked: Dawn, search your heart and ask if you really needed to quote all of those obnoxious student comments. Is the point of this post to apologize and explain, or to hold HCC students up for ridicule?

My unsolicited response: If these kids are going to publicly post their comments, then they have to be prepared to be quoted. Sometimes it’s good to hold a mirror up to someone’s face to let them know what they look like. Dawn has apologized for any points she thought she needed to apologize for and there’s no excuse for the barrage of hate, vulgarity, and poor grammar she’s just been subjected to.
Embarrassed in Ontario | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 9:40 am | #

Thinking a little more about this, I realize there are a couple of things I recognize, from this year's confirmation class here.

1) The tendency of the listener to translate a positive message about one thing , into a negative judgement about themselves. Because you were speaking about chastity, and consequences, they 'heard' you judging them negatively (although I'm sure you didn't actually have ANY personal knowledge of them!). This shows a distinct inability to reason. Its also somewhat dishonest.

2) Because they have decided that you are 'judging ' them, they wish to 'get even', and feel justified. This shows a moral vacancy that is disturbing.

At least they weren't the confirmation class you had been helping to prepare for the last three years, and thankfully their 'attack ' is limited to your comments box.


Its hard to see how the parents aren't directly responsible for this particular perspective on life - the 'everything is about me' perspective. We have TWO generations of people not quite 'getting' the Christian message, let alone Catholic!
lwestin | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 9:47 am | #

No good deed goes unpunished. I think it is interesting how a couple of the kids justified their reactions by saying "Even the teachers hated it". The rot sometimes starts at the top and trickles down.
Janjan | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 10:10 am | #

Hmm. Is anyone surprised that adolescents are acting like -- uh, you know -- adolescents?

Is it possible, Dawn, that your specific message and its personal aspects are better directed towards a slightly more mature audience, those who can more closely relate to the Dawn Eden story?

To be biblical about it, though, think of it as planting seeds. Those who plant the seeds may not necessarily be the ones who harvest them. You have planted; go in the peace of Christ!
C.J. | 04.30.08 - 10:20 am | #

To be honest, if I remember my high school days in the halycon days of yore (and mine), I think any assembly, even if they were giving out free ice cream, was an excuse to not be in class and nothing more. I know I spent most of assemblies talking with my friends. If they were listening to you, even if they disagreed, it's a victory. Now if only they had better grammar and spelling.....but that seems par for any school these days. To be honest, I'm surprised Dawn didn't delete some of the more vitriolic posts. Unless the whole point was to deflate disagreements by leaving the poorly worded ones up.
Neil C | 04.30.08 - 10:54 am | #

I'll attempt to be positive about this sad story. Is it possible that the comments represent a small percentage of the entire student body? Is it possible that the majority of students left the presentation and privately gave it deep thought? Is it possible that the majority of students of this high school know the difference between there, their, and they're? I couldn't afford to send my kids to Catholic school and until now I've regretted not going into debt to send them to better schools. Now, my regret is lessened.
LargeBill | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 10:55 am | #

Hi Dawn,

I think these childish over-reactions are evidence that you reached them, although they'll surely deny it.

Also, while Canadian Anti-Americanism may have some effect, the multiple references to a teacher who disapproves of your message hints at another likely cause.
Memphis Aggie | 04.30.08 - 10:58 am | #

No doubt you planted seeds that in some cases, will sprout in 10 - 20 years. In other cases, never.

Face to Holy Face, Jesus "lost" the rich young man when he was challenged to give up the fruits of his heart, so too teens and their herd mentality will reject and rebel.John Chapter 6 and Luke 4 show the same happening to Christ.

The knocks, diatribes, rage and personal attacks indicates that THEY LISTENED AND HEARD what you said. And they did not like the message because it is the truth and probably the first real challenge they ever faced to their "values". No one sane can attack the truth, so they attack the messenger.

Well done.

Dan of the Westchester
Daniel Kane | 04.30.08 - 11:06 am | #

What were the reactions in the other schools?

Significantly better. I've added an "Ontario HS tour" tag to the post--click on it and you'll see my commentary along with photos of some of the other schools, including shots of students coming up to me after my talk. (Two HCC students did come up to me after my talk there and posed for a photo with me and gave permission for me to put the photo on my blog. I have not published the photo for fear of how the students might be treated by their peers were it to appear online.)

What struck me as different about HCC's reaction was:

(1) The crowd was unusually noisy, owing in part to the horseshoe seating setup on the gym's floor. Students who were talking were immediately visible to all the other students, creating a greater distraction.

(2) The principal, while sitting with the students on the floor, made no effort to urge them to be more respectful, and neither did any other staff.

Dawn, search your heart and ask if you really needed to quote all of those obnoxious student comments. Is the point of this post to apologize and explain, or to hold HCC students up for ridicule?

I appreciate how other commenters have responded to the above by backing up my decision to use the students' comments. Their reasoning is similar to my own. I would add that I have in fact avoided identifying individual students when I could have done so. I had the full name and IP address of the student who made threats against me, and have refrained from publishing it, realizing that it could hurt his future job prospects.

As another commenter mentioned, the students have already put their comments onto the Internet. If their teachers and parents have, in instructing them on "1984" and "cultural relativism," left out lessons in civility, then the students should at least learn that, on the Internet, what has been spoken in closets will be shouted from housetops.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 11:13 am | #

I really hope the school pays attention to the violence in some of those messages. Those need to be taken seriously.
John | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 11:16 am | #

Ditto to many of the above comments, especially Scott J. at 4:07am.

One thing that jumped out at me because I've heard it often was the "I'm a good person" idea, with the implication that this goodness is inherently pristine and unaffected by anything that I actually do. You can kind of see where this comes from in the self-esteem culture of the past 30 yrs or so. An editorial I read recently in the student paper of a Catholic college asserted that the essence of Catholicism is not judging anything anybody does.

Dawn, the fact that you face this kind of thing on a regular basis is one reason why I try to remember to pray for you and your work every day. I sure couldn't handle it.
mac | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 11:43 am | #

Having arguments in comboxes is silly. Then again, so is High School.
Ben | 04.30.08 - 12:03 pm | #

Dawn,

I'm sorry you had to deal with all those nasty comments. Like I said in the other thread, it is the very nature of teenagers to think they know everything and don't have to listen to anyone. Hopefully, when they are older and wiser, they will regret the things they said.

What amazed me is that the whole idea of redemption eluded some of these kids. That is, that someone can mess up, repent, ask for God's forgiveness and receive it. Redemption *doesn't* mean it's okay to sin in the first place or that the sin doesn't matter. It *does* matter because Jesus suffered and died for that sin and all others committed by all of humanity. It just means you are forgiven and renewed and can try to live the way God wants you to. I mean, this is basic Christian theology. You would think students at a Catholic school would have some grasp of the concept.
Susan B. | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 12:07 pm | #

If one is unable to distinguish between the proper uses of "they're" and "their," then one is likely unable to make responsible decisions about sex, from either a religious or nonreligious standpoint.

The reverse, of course, does not necessarily hold true ;-)
Brett | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 12:34 pm | #

It's not just the uncivil and nasty tone of the kids' comments that bothers me, but also the seeming inability to put together any coherent communication... an apparently drastically impaired capacity to reason.

No discussion of concepts or ideas, only knee-jerk emotional responses.

I understand that not all the kids acted this way, but... man, is that bleak.
Tim J. | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 12:39 pm | #

I am sorry that they reacted so with such hostility, but the hard truth is that when you work with kids, you have to be prepared to face their anger. That being said, I am appalled at the lack of proper grammar and spelling. What are they learning? And I would suggest these kiddoes add _Lord of the Flies_ to their reading list. It makes a nice companion piece to _1984_.

I sort of dismissed the "teacher" comments out of hand. They may be speaking the truth, but one of the oldest tricks in the book is for a kid to try to add weight to what he or she is saying by using "the other teachers let me do ..." or "all the other teachers say ...". Often they just want some thing and think if you believe an adult thought so too, you might be more likely to give in.
aharris | 04.30.08 - 12:59 pm | #

, but because the outdated slang you were using (v-card? Is it 1998?) was ridiculous

Before I think of a constructive comment on anything else,I find the notion of Canadians acting like they are trend setters funny. Whatever slang they have, outdated or otherwise I would think was invented by Americans.

Black people got a saying: "she don't like to be told". This is a good example of just that. Many are having sex and many take pride in it. Many take pride in their short skirts like it is original.They don't want to hear there is something wrong with that.Teenagers like to think they invented hedonistic 60s era behavior.

If there were a speaker who showed up and said it was "cool to lose your v-card" or whatever slang they found archaic with a message patting them on the back for living a fun life and doing what they wanted, I doubt they would have even noticed or been annoyed.
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 1:34 pm | #

P.S. I didn't mean to diss Canadians, I just thought the point that was trying to be made about slang was a bit of a paradox.
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 1:49 pm | #

Whatever slang they have, outdated or otherwise I would think was invented by Americans.

Yeah, really not true, says this Canadian-American hybrid.
Terezia | 04.30.08 - 1:54 pm | #

WOW we are not the only catholic high school that has kilts and wears them short because wearing them long is UGLY, can you not let us enjoy our cellulite free legs while we have them.

Oh, the generational wars. Seems to me as if today's youth should value older people (and the fact that women in their 40s and 50s can be hot - I can't forget Renee Russo in the Thomas Crowne Affair), so that when they are old, they can reap the benefits. Beats the heck out of enjoying about ten years of your life and then spending the next sixty years trying to find those years again.
theobromophile | 04.30.08 - 2:10 pm | #

Before I think of a constructive comment on anything else,I find the notion of Canadians acting like they are trend setters funny. Whatever slang they have, outdated or otherwise I would think was invented by Americans. >>>

Reminds me of a joke in the television show, How I Met Your Mother. One character was a Canadian pop star in 1992, but she dressed up like Tiffany because in Canada "the 80s didn't come until around 1992."
Neil C | 04.30.08 - 2:14 pm | #

Jesus tells us in Scripture (in so many words) that sticking your neck out for for the Gospel leads inevitably, at some point, to criticism and/or mockery, if not death. This Scripture passage came to mind while reading the teens' comments. I'm glad He gave us fair warning. :)

Matthew 5:10-16
Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you (falsely) because of me.
Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven. Thus they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
"You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden.
Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house.
Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father.
Andrea | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 2:24 pm | #

I've worked with Italian College and high school kids for the past 27 yrs.

I couldn't imagine anything coming even close to this rampage of immaturity, and ( I borrow from above): "callousness and self-absorption".

The Pope got violent protests from student body La Sapienza University not to visit..

This raised a major uproar all over Italy as to what counts as tolerance and open-mindedness.


Wasn't Canada the beacon of even-headedness and thoughtful discussion in North America..?
Glenn | 04.30.08 - 3:00 pm | #

Whatever slang they have, outdated or otherwise I would think was invented by Americans.

Yeah, really not true, says this Canadian-American hybrid.

For example (a mainstream current slang term invented by Canadians that Americans use)?
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 3:10 pm | #

Do they teach Basic Grammar at that school??
Kevin | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 3:25 pm | #

Everyone seems to be of the mind that HCC students are whole-heartedly against chastity. Ironic, really, when you read the sarcasm and transparent comments on Dawn's blog. For someone who preaches directly from her bible, I would hope that they would practise morals residing from the same pages. Perhaps that is too much to ask.

We're a school that is very open to Catholic opinions and the teachings of more learned adults then us. We just don't enjoy sitting through an hour long presentation, wherein the most we could get out of it was that 'Spider Man' had underlying tones of chastity. I realise that many of the comments from HCC sounded incoherrent and rude, but can you blame us? We're proud of our school, and of our own individual values that we strive to protect.

I am sorry on behalf of my school that you felt we were attacking you on a personal level. It was not meant to be, many students were reacting out of anger. However, was it nessesary to reply to us in such a sarcastic and superior manner? You just fed into exactly what those angry students wanted by giving such a reaction. But, on another note, we do appreciate you removing the photo.

If you plan to pass such harsh judgements on us, I hope you yourself would be willing to live in a glass house.
cynical@HCC | 04.30.08 - 3:27 pm | #

And, please, stop trying to insinuate an anti-americanism tone about our school (this is directed at the previous commenters). Canada, and our school within, is and will be open to other cultures for as long as we are our own (we would hope).
cynical@HCC | 04.30.08 - 3:29 pm | #

For example (a mainstream current slang term invented by Canadians that Americans use)?

Pansy, I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you saying "for example" is a mainstream current slang term invented by Canadians?
Terezia | 04.30.08 - 3:36 pm | #

I really disliked you coming to our school not just because you said our skirts were to short but because you came into OUR school and basically insulted us.
You had absolutely no right.
Talking to some other students from other schools in the area they said you did the same thing.
I realize where you coming from but your message was TOTALLY unclear.

Frustrated.
HccStudent | 04.30.08 - 3:37 pm | #

I don't think it was needed to neccisary push the point farther. I think your message is great, however I must admit your speaking style is not that interesting to me. I say this with upmost respect to you, I'm a younger practicing Catholic I might add. I think that some speach coaching would be helpfull. Your message is great, and God bless you for all you do, but that's just my two cents.
Lissa | 04.30.08 - 3:40 pm | #

Hi Dawn,
Ouch! So sorry you had to endure some of the hurtful comments. I will just echo the sentiment of many of your readers and just offer my support and encouragement for the difficult work you do. You have a good heart and you are genuinely helping people. Sending support and prayers and thanks for caring about youth, even though it may involve enduring some difficult moments. Thank you for your courage, strength, and compassion, and may you grow even more in wisdom from these experiences.
Anne
Anne | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 3:55 pm | #

If you plan to pass such harsh judgements on us, I hope you yourself would be willing to live in a glass house.

Um.....Dawn has a personal blog, with her name and face on it.

It doesn't get any "glassier" than that!
L. | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 4:02 pm | #

cynical:
I realise that many of the comments from HCC sounded incoherrent and rude, but can you blame us?

First of all, it's "incoherent". I couldn't have set that up better myself if I tried.

And the comments didn't "sound" rude; they were rude. And yes, the blame lies on the students who responded in such a manner.

We're proud of our school,

Why? It couldn't possibly be for the grammar, spelling and writing education.

and of our own individual values that we strive to protect. 


Question: What would those individual values include?

I am sorry on behalf of my school that you felt we were attacking you on a personal level.

Speaking for myself here, as I am not Dawn, but she didn't have to feel attacked; she was attacked, verbally, by students of your school.
Sparks | 04.30.08 - 4:06 pm | #

I can't think of anyone who lives in a glasser house than Dawn Eden. That she has chosen to reveal herself warts and all is a major part of the power of her ministry.

I do recall that Jesus offered his disciples of shaking the dust off their sandals from any town that refused to hear the message. Perhaps the insolent are choking on their own dust.

Hang in there, munchkin. And I hope you're not trying to act forty yet.
Robert N G | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 4:10 pm | #

"We're proud of our school, and of our own individual values that we strive to protect."

Would those be, I don't know, CATHOLIC values, at your Catholic school? I can see the cognitive dissonance having a Catholic speaker coming to your Catholic school to challenge your Catholic values.
Andy | 04.30.08 - 4:17 pm | #

For example (a mainstream current slang term invented by Canadians that Americans use)?

Pansy, I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you saying "for example" is a mainstream current slang term invented by Canadians?

No, I meant give me a term as an example. It doesn't matter, my point is this was just nitpicking on the part of the student as to the many things wrong with Dawn's talk, valid or not. I didn't mean for this to turn into " who has a better beat on what cool is? Rock journalists from the heart of NYC or people from Ontario?" discussion.
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 4:30 pm | #

I don't think anyone in the forum (yours truly included!) has an idea what 'cool' is. :)
Neil C | 04.30.08 - 4:46 pm | #

We just don't enjoy sitting through an hour long presentation,

That's what you are so angry about? That you had to sit through an hour long presentation that you felt you did not need and found boring? Wow.
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 4:53 pm | #

"...you came into OUR school and basically insulted us."

Can you give an example of when Dawn insulted you? Like, a quote?

Or did you just feel insulted because she was there, and you really, really didn't want to hear what she had to say?
Tim J. | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 5:08 pm | #

That you had to sit through an hour long presentation that you felt you did not need and found boring? Wow.

Pansy,

That "wow" floating at the end of your sentence?

That, like, totally ruins your point:)

(I have a beastly teenager myself. Aping his speech never helps a debate!)
Jody Tresidder | 04.30.08 - 5:27 pm | #

So-oohh, the natives have gotten restless. And to think Canadians were such polite and reserved little darlings!

Here's a thought for future high-school talks on chastity: forget the autobiographical stuff and scare the sweet bejesus of the little blighters.

Take a leaf from my old grade-school Irish priest and let 'em have it. Tell them that sex was originally pure and holy before the Fall, but afterwards it is a major cause for damnation.

Let them know what Hell is -- that the majority of sinners get there through unchastity, and that there are children in Hell. Ask them to imagine torture and starvation found in the worst POW camps and say that they will experience these sufferings "not for an hour, not for a year, but for an eternity!"

That should get them going.

As always,

Best
tmr-brat | 04.30.08 - 5:32 pm | #

I am a student from HCC, and I do apologize for the harsh unnecessary comments, but you and everyone else has to understand that we are just sticking up for ourselves and our school. You know nothing about our school, only an illusion of what you thought we represented. But past our short kilts and apparently the epidermis buffet we have big hearts and we are a wonderful school. There is no need for the trash talk our school is under going from you, other comments and everyone who reads your blog.

The threats given to you obviously in one way or another hurt you. I understand but, put yourself into our schools shoes. You received threats, but we received harsh comments and a bad name for our school.

We gave you the attention and respect you deserved during your presentation. Somethings were hard to follow and you seemed to spend a lot of your time "beating around the bush" using useless examples( peter parker) and outdated slang like V-card. We did not once laugh at you, or personally attack you if that is what you thought. Your presentation could have been a lot better if it was organized and presented well. I also understand how hard it is to get in-front of a crowd of "bratty teenagers" as now what we are made to be.

A comment I found offence was the one about missing the pig's head on the pole, on the way in. If this was directed to us in a way that us as a school community are savages your wrong.

Last year we had an amazing guest speaker, who talked about AIDS, and making good decisions. He impacted our school, and some students even left in tears, we are not cold hearted. Your presentation just didn't stick, and I noticed that even the teachers had dropped jaws from some of your comments.

I'm not here to tell you to quit doing what you do, because you are a good speaker just no effective, but you could be. I'm here to represent my school in what we truly are.

You know none of our schools accomplishments, our students, teachers and all together our school in general. So you have no right saying what you did. This week alone we raised thousands of dollars for the children's hospital not only that, but had bully awareness day wearing pink, and giving money. Our school participated in the Walk against male violence and coming up in June the student council organized "Walk it out" a 12 hour marathon to raise money for cancer research. Around Christmas time we take part in the be an angel campaign and raise thousands for it to, giving families a wonderful Christmas.

So don't judge our school unless you really no what we are about.

Sincerely,

N.V
A Concerned HCC Student. | 04.30.08 - 5:40 pm | #

"I realise that many of the comments from HCC sounded incoherrent and rude, but can you blame us?"

Yes, of course you're to blame for your own behaviour. This attempt to excuse your behaviour by arguing that it couldn't be any other way is just weird. You're not dogs who can't help but bark and snarl, for goodness' sake.

"[...]and of our own individual values that we strive to protect."

Eww. My own individual values just threw up in my mouth.
George G. | 04.30.08 - 5:59 pm | #

"The threats given to you obviously in one way or another hurt you. I understand but, put yourself into our schools shoes. You received threats, but we received harsh comments and a bad name for our school."

Actually, the fact that you think that harsh comments and a bad name for your school warrants threats shows just a skewed sense of perspective.

[I didn't get your "dorks" comment, Andy, as I never said such a thing, so I cut it out - Dawn]

Edited By Siteowner
Andy | 04.30.08 - 6:08 pm | #

a mainstream current slang term invented by Canadians that Americans use

Pansy, I doubt such a thing exists. I mean, the last time I was at Dulles, the clerk at Duty Free had no idea where Toronto is.

What makes Canadians livid is when someone implies that any aspect of our culture is wholly derived from Americans. Just as I get incensed when Canadians makes blanket judgments about the American public because they don't like the current political administration (which tends to be the reason).

I won't highjack the combox anymore, and a 2-minute Google search should answer the question of where Canadian slang actually comes from. The most colourful comes from Newfoundland (traditionally a very Catholic province), but they often use Jesus' name in ways you might not like (just a warning).

To bring this closer to topic, there must be V-cards and Chastity Balls here too, but I've never heard people talk about them. Maybe the laughter stemmed in part from discomfort over something the teens aren't familiar with?

I think a chastity pledge is a great idea if it's a decision come to personally, without parental or peer pressure. I believe they may have negative connotations for some people since it's not always going to be the case that teens will sign them without coercion. And it's definitely a different political climate here.
Terezia | 04.30.08 - 6:11 pm | #

That you had to sit through an hour long presentation that you felt you did not need and found boring? Wow.

Pansy,

That "wow" floating at the end of your sentence?

That, like, totally ruins your point:)

(I have a beastly teenager myself. Aping his speech never helps a debate!)

I wasn't aping anyone's speech (I didn't know "wow" was limited to teenagers). I was genuinely in shock.
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 6:35 pm | #

Everyone and anyone has the right to disagree with my comments. It doesn't offend or irk me.

I guess the real problem here, is that a presentation about chastity and the love coming from God - that is unconditional no matter what mistakes a person may make sexually - has been skewed into an ongoing argument between a broup of teenagers from HCC who are outraged, and a group of adults who don't seem to realise that they aren't in highschool anymore.

You are all battling on the same level as us - why not let it go? a good number of us have tried to state our critism on Dawn's presentation in an articulate way. And for those students who chose to lash out in anger, well, you all have been repeatedly telling us that you're wiser and more mature then us.

Please, why not just act like it? The presentation is over, and I guess we just didn't feel it was effective or correct. To each his own.
cynical@HCC | 04.30.08 - 6:44 pm | #

group**
cynical@HCC | 04.30.08 - 6:45 pm | #

It seems like the students are feeling insulted because someone spoke to them about chastity. In their minds, this translated into " you assume we are not chaste".

A truly Catholic education would have provided opportunity for development of reason and logic - notably missing from the comments by the students. It makes them sound (caution - not PC) STUPID.
I'm sure they have some intelligence, so why hasn't the school been able to tap into it? Where are the parents?
lwestin | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 6:50 pm | #

Hello,

I am the person who wrote the comment that said “... you went on to talk about your family problems like they were the cause of you becoming a slut...” (A portion of the comment is on Dawn’s blog) I understand that the comment was disrespectful and immature, but I did apologize for it. The more I think about that comment now, the more I realize that it was only based on anger and that I should not have posted it the way that I did.

In which case, Miss Eden, I would, once again, like to apologize to you about what I said. I truly regret it. What I said was unfair to you and to everyone I represented. I would also like to say that I was shocked when reading the comments of some of my fellow classmates. Some were even more out of line than I was and I would like to ensure you that this is not typically what our school is like. We have incredible school spirit, which I think is the reason we took it so hard when you said we were a tough audience. You may have bruised our ego a bit.

I think that now is a good time, however, to look at the bright side of things. Sure we showed you most of our bad side but school spirit and unity is an incredible thing and look at what the power of our voices has done. We’ve made our opinions known to many people…although not productively. If we steer that power to do good in the world, imagine what we can do. I would just like to say, GO CENTURIONS!!!

Miss Eden, I do, however, have a couple requests. My first request is regarding a specific comment on your blog which I find very offensive to both the male and female population.

“It amazed me that the boys in the audience could pay any attention to me at all with the epidermis buffet going on all around them.”

First of all, I do not like how you compared women’s bodies to food. I do not believe that we are just something to be consumed. Secondly, not all men are as awful as you make them sound in this statement. Is comparing them to cannibals really necessary? My request is that you remove or change this statement to make it a little more respectful.

My other request regards my comment on your blog. I was just wondering if it was possible for you to remove it. I am quite ashamed of it. I suppose that you could leave it there to make an example of my mistakes, but is it possible to even make a note saying that I realized my faults and apologized for them?

There is only one part of my bad comment which I still believe to be true. I still do not believe that there is a problem with wearing clothing that reveals legs. I do not believe that the issue resides in young women and their “need to impress men.” After all, legs are not genitalia and men have them too. If a girl has a skirt so short that you can see her underwear, then I can see how it would be a problem, but that is not the case. Uniform kilts have shorts in them, making it impossible for any kind of undergarments (or lack of them *gag*) to be seen. I think that the biased opinion which implies that all women who do wear shorter skirts are only interested in sex, is based on the perverseness of our society. How come it seems so uncommon for speakers to target young men, encouraging them not to think of women as meat, and yet, so common for speakers to encourage young women to show as little skin as possible? In short, legs are not perverted.

Finally, I would like to say something to some of the other people who have commented here. First of all, Bud, who commented, “I think you mentioned that a good portion of students there are non-Catholic.” I don’t know where you got that information from but you were misinformed. Most students in our school are Catholic, or at least Christian. I know that you would probably all like it better if we were not Catholic. That way you would not have to associate yourselves with us, but everyone makes mistakes and Catholics are called to forgive one another for our mistakes.

Also there seemed to be a discussion about whether or not the students at our school were angry with Miss Eden because of our prejudice against Americans. This is not true at all. I don’t know anyone in our school or outside of it that is so ignorant that they would allow such an insignificant trait, such as the country someone lives in, to contribute to anger over another matter or to anger at all. We treat people from all countries the way we treat other Canadians. I know you may have a hard time taking that statement seriously from our actions so far, but I assure you that not even we would sink to that level. We have learned from our history classes about the Holocaust and although we can’t relate to the mindset of the Nazi soldiers, we know that prejudice is one of the exact elements that led to such a tragedy.

I recommend that, in the future, you do not speak about what you don’t know.

Sydney Carton, I am sorry, but I think you were very out of line with the comment, “Yeah, they need prayer. They also need a good kick in the a**.” I think it was very immature. You are speaking to us about our immaturity by way of violent comments? Does that really make you any better than us? Are you really any different from Jay who made similar comments to Miss Eden? I am sorry, but I don’t think that was acceptable.

Well, that is all I have to say. Once again, I apologize for my actions, Miss Eden. I’m sorry that I could not relate to your chastity presentation, but you did teach me the lesson of proper communication, including respect and I thank you for that.

Sincerely,
Another hcc student
Another hcc student | 04.30.08 - 6:53 pm | #

Anotherhccstudent, I appreciate your apology and will shortly remove the comment you mention from the comments section and from my blog entry. Thank you.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 7:22 pm | #

I have been reading this blog for quite some time, and I applaud Ms. Eden's courage in writing her book and speaking to various groups. Some of the students' comments were insulting.

I am curious to know if Ms. Eden generally receives a more hostile response from adults than she got from some high school students. Adults may choose to attend Ms. Eden's presentation, and they are free to leave if they do not like her message. Were the high school students required to attend your talk? Some of the hostility may have been caused by being forced to attend. Plus, I imagine there might be some repercussions for students if they left during your talk.

Some students overreacted to Ms. Eden's fairly mind comments. It is very difficult to work with teenagers, and Ms. Eden deserves much thanks.
Bill | 04.30.08 - 7:23 pm | #

Bill, I never receive such a response from adult audiences, ever. Occasionally one person in the audience will argue with me or will write me afterwards with a criticism, but nothing like this. The captive-audience factor is indeed key to understanding the response from students at this particular school.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 7:27 pm | #

Bill, I never receive such a response from adult audiences, ever. Occasionally one person in the audience will argue with me or will write me afterwards with a criticism, but nothing like this. The captive-audience factor is indeed key to understanding the response from students at this particular school.

That may be true, but I think one sign of maturity is the ability to take from advice what you need for your situation and leaving the rest. Many adults I know with maturity issues do not understand that 1. disagreeing with them is not a personal attack and 2. do not quite have the self-esteem to comprehend that everything that is said to them doesn't have to be all or nothing. They are still not in a stage of life where they have been making their own responsible decisions for some time, and are used to people making them for them. This is fine for this age. However, if the children are used to constantly getting their own way, or are allowed to simply make decisions based on "I want" as opposed to responsibility, this is how children respond.
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 7:42 pm | #

@ Another hcc student

"First of all, I do not like how you compared women’s bodies to food. I do not believe that we are just something to be consumed. Secondly, not all men are as awful as you make them sound in this statement. Is comparing them to cannibals really necessary? My request is that you remove or change this statement to make it a little more respectful."

I think you're taking Dawn's "epidermis buffet" remark a bit too literally. It was just a colourful way of saying that the young men of the school may have found all the exposed skin visually distracting.

I rather like the term. It's definitely going in my lexicon.
George G. | 04.30.08 - 7:57 pm | #

another hcc student,

I would like to address this comment to you specifically. Your most recent comment was coherently and logically presented with excellent grammar skills. Before yesterday, I would have taken that for granted, but apparently that is much rarer than I thought in a high school senior. I also need to preface this with the assurance that I have no intention of criticizing you in any way, but I am going to treat you like an adult by having a conversation back and forth in which two people may not completely agree but treat each other with respect. The only reason I'm attempting it is because you have exhibited a fair degree of maturity. Before that last comment, I would never have bothered.

I would also like to say that I was shocked when reading the comments of some of my fellow classmates.

As were we all. Perhaps you are used to dealing with that sort of thing, but I can assure you that most of us were apalled.

We have incredible school spirit, which I think is the reason we took it so hard when you said we were a tough audience. You may have bruised our ego a bit.

I am going to be blunt. Saying someone is a tough audience is not an insult. It is simply a descriptive that was apparently completely accurate based on the response from the students. You yourselves admit you were a tough crowd while at the same time expressing your outrage at being called a tough crowd. Why were you insulted?

I read the initial post and had not one bad thought about Holy Cross. I just thought, "hmm, a tough crowd." That's it. Now I have a very, very negative view of Holy Cross, and the comments left on this blog from you schoolmates are the sole reason. Just that, nothing else.

I think that now is a good time, however, to look at the bright side of things. Sure we showed you most of our bad side but school spirit and unity is an incredible thing and look at what the power of our voices has done. We’ve made our opinions known to many people…although not productively.

Why do you think school spirit and unity are intrinsically good? Why do you think having your voices heard was a good thing? It has done absolutely nothing but put a black eye on your Centurions. You value school spirit and unity as an intrinsic good, it is plain. But perhaps that is a value you should reassess.

If we steer that power to do good in the world, imagine what we can do. I would just like to say, GO CENTURIONS!!!

Most things in this world can be used for good and evil. To downplay when it is used evily simply by rationalizing that it could theoretically also be used for good is poor moral judgment.

There is only one part of my bad comment which I still believe to be true. I still do not believe that there is a problem with wearing clothing that reveals legs. I do not believe that the issue resides in young women and their “need to impress men.” After all, legs are not genitalia and men have them too.

You are not a man, and so it is hard for you to understand that men look at women differently from the way women look at men. They are sexually aroused by visual stimulation to a much, much, much greater degree than women. Genitalia is not required. Just looking at that which makes a women beautiful and desirable can get their engines revving. That includes most body parts. Upper legs are a major turn-on for men. Use that information as you will. I'm not judging you or men; that's just some freebie information I'm giving out.

I think that the biased opinion which implies that all women who do wear shorter skirts are only interested in sex, is based on the perverseness of our society. How come it seems so uncommon for speakers to target young men, encouraging them not to think of women as meat, and yet, so common for speakers to encourage young women to show as little skin as possible? In short, legs are not perverted.

Ironically, I don't think most of us think that girls who wear short skirts are only thinking of sex. I think it is precisely because they don't understand the effect it has on the men around them that they feel it is no big deal. Women who wear short skirts are trying to attract attention - whether it is from other girls to show how fashionable and pretty they are or it is from boys so that they can feel beautiful and desirable.

I agree that men should be given the same message that people are to be treated with dignity and not as "meat" of little consequence. Of course, someone did show up to give you that message and she was verbally attacked by your schoolmates. Please think about that.

Most students in our school are Catholic, or at least Christian. I know that you would probably all like it better if we were not Catholic. That way you would not have to associate yourselves with us, but everyone makes mistakes and Catholics are called to forgive one another for our mistakes.

Also, people who make those mistakes are called to repentence. Your very sincere apology for your own remarks were well done. I truly feel you are sorry and I have no doubt that Dawn has forgiven you. It would be best, however, if you stopped trying to rationalize the behavior of your classmates. They gave an incredibly un-Christian display, and should be duly embarassed.

I apologize for my actions, Miss Eden. I’m sorry that I could not relate to your chastity presentation, but you did teach me the lesson of proper communication, including respect and I thank you for that.

I greatly respect this apology. Again, well done.
Amy K. | 04.30.08 - 8:37 pm | #

Bully awareness day.

Wow.
Robert N G | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 8:47 pm | #

I'm away for a while (okay, a long while) and come back to see one of my favorite people getting raked over the coals by fellow Catholics for the heinous act of upholding Catholic teachings. Reading some of the comments I would say, "Methinks they doth protest too much".
That aside, I'll be back more often, and rather than hijack this thread I'll save the explanation for my absence when you make a post about drunk drivers who run stop signs.
J Rob | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 8:55 pm | #

With all the blaming back and forth, I think we're missing some important lessons. We all have a choice--we can insist that we are right and continue to engage in these vituperations that make us feel so self-righteous or we can grow from the experience and do better next time.

It's true that some student commenters were crude and disrespectful, and evidenced very poor language skills. On the other hand, many of the adults have been disrespectful to the students, even mocking bordering on bullying.

But clearly Dawn shares some of the responsiblity. She was a guest in their school, akin to their home. Her issues with their behavior or responses to her talk should have been presented as issues. She did not need to personalize it , by naming their school, or identifying individuals, or posting photos that presented them in a bad light. If she were an invited guest in my home and later blogged negatively about what she experienced I would have found it inexcusably rude and I, too, would have become angry and defensive.

Some adults may forget how attached many of us were to our own high schools (or how high we rolled up our own uniforms for that matter). A put-down of our school was taken as personally as a put-down of ourselves. Our allegience to our school, our friends, our teachers was, next to our families, our strongest, proudest connection.

Next time, Dawn, it might be wiser and kinder to raise the issues without singling out a school by name or in pictures.
TDD | 04.30.08 - 8:59 pm | #

Some adults may forget how attached many of us were to our own high schools (or how high we rolled up our own uniforms for that matter). A put-down of our school was taken as personally as a put-down of ourselves. Our allegience to our school, our friends, our teachers was, next to our families, our strongest, proudest connection.

Bad behavior is bad behavior. Dawn didn't do anything different from what she has been doing for over a year, posting her impressions of her different talks to many different organizations and schools. This is the only time she has gotten such a response. There is where the food for thought is.
Amy K. | 04.30.08 - 9:08 pm | #

"...you came into OUR school and basically insulted us."

Can you give an example of when Dawn insulted you? Like, a quote?

Or did you just feel insulted because she was there, and you really, really didn't want to hear what she had to say?"

And to that comment first u have no idea what you talking about because You don't even know my school or what she said to us and And secondly i don't think ANYONE wanted to hear it anywhere like do teens actually wanna here about how many men she slept well and how good it felt?
no cool
HccStudent | 04.30.08 - 9:14 pm | #

Can you give an example of when Dawn insulted you? Like, a quote?

Or did you just feel insulted because she was there, and you really, really didn't want to hear what she had to say?"

And to that comment first u have no idea what you talking about because You don't even know my school or what she said to us and And secondly i don't think ANYONE wanted to hear it anywhere like do teens actually wanna here about how many men she slept well and how good it felt?

So... that's a no?
Amy K. | 04.30.08 - 9:16 pm | #

OMG,
So this is Catholic education in Canada? Unbelievable! Are you sure it wasn't some kind of juvenile detention center?
Dawn I'm so sorry that you had to endure such hateful comments.
If you didn't expose the comments; who would understand the extent of vitriol and ignorance those students spewed?
LM | 04.30.08 - 9:18 pm | #

This will be my last comment, I promise!

I will not pretend to speak for anyone else, but one of the reasons I, personally, did not like Dawn's talk and/or blog post was because I felt that she tied self esteem to sex, sexuality, and appearance.

I was unmoved because I think that how you feel about yourself should be completely to how you look, if you are desired, and how short your skirt is. I realize it is unrealistic in today's society, as appearance is everything to most people, but intelligence is much more important.

Also, people should wear short skirts because they like the skirt, not that guys think they look good in it. People should do and say what makes them happy, not what society says they should want and be.

So, if sex makes you happy? Have it.

I am lucky, at sixteen years old, to know who I am, what I want to be, and to have a concrete set of morals and values. They may not be ones my parents (who are conservative catholics), or you, internet commenters, like or agree with, but the beauty of it is, it's my choice.

But if I am going to ask that people respect my views and me as a person, I must respect others. My previous comments were lacking in respect, which I regret. My opinions and values should not cloud my judgement in regards to other people. As I and others accused you of judging us without knowing us, I did the same to you.

The last thing I want to address is my comments about the book 1984. I was thinking about how the party are trying to scientifically eliminate the orgasm as to make people unhappy, because happy people are harder to control. It was recalled to my mind during the presentation and once again as I wrote.

Thanks for listening... reading?
hccstudent
hccstudent | 04.30.08 - 9:22 pm | #

The only reason i did not like her was because she came to a catholic school and talked about how much she enjoyed sex. We did not need to know how good it felt for her to sleep with all these men.
HccStudent | 04.30.08 - 9:25 pm | #

Bully awareness day.

Wow.

Care to elaborate, Robert NG? I can't see what you're trying to say.
Terezia | 04.30.08 - 9:41 pm | #

First, didn't like how u publi8shed photos of that. Just creepy
And secondly, all you are doing in ALL your blogs is turning everyone against our school typing in what people said.
Not everyone in our school is disrespectful and you can not blame 700 students for the comments of 20.
HccStudent | 04.30.08 - 9:48 pm | #

Bully awareness day.

Wow.

Care to elaborate, Robert NG? I can't see what you're trying to say.
Terezia | 04.30.08 - 9:41 pm | #

Robert obviously approves of bullying. :)
Neil C. | 04.30.08 - 10:11 pm | #

At times like this, I can only recall the lapidary words of GHOSTBUSTERS...

Dawn doesn't have to take this abuse from you. She has hundreds of people waiting to abuse her.
Will | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 10:22 pm | #

Thanks, Will ... I think.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 10:26 pm | #

NV above wrote This week alone we raised thousands of dollars for the children's hospital not only that, but had bully awareness day wearing pink, and giving money.

By saying "WOW" I was merely pointing out how impressed I am that the school is able to stop bullying by wearing pink.

I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

I do not now and never have favored bullying or any other type of rude behavior.

[Note to Dawn: Next time wear pink.]
Robert N G | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 10:40 pm | #

hccstudent - Do you read Brave New World in your literature classes? Divorcing sex from procreation is as unnatural as divorcing pleasure from sex.

And secondly, all you are doing in ALL your blogs is turning everyone against our school typing in what people said.

I don't really think Dawn is turning people against any of you. Your peers who have commented with personal insults and threats are doing a great job of that all on their own.
Tina | 04.30.08 - 10:47 pm | #

[Note to Dawn: Next time wear pink.]

Good advice, Robert. Perhaps I should also wear a T-shirt for the "Walk Against Male Violence" (a Catholic perspective on which is here).
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 10:51 pm | #

And also its GREAT how 40 year olds are commenting and attacking high school students really looks good on your part =]
HccStudent | 04.30.08 - 10:57 pm | #

I would like to echo those expressed sentiments that after having read Dawn's original post I did not entertain any negative opinions or feelings about Holy Cross or its students. Once some of the comments made by the students came to light, however, that is when I began to have some negative thoughts about the school. It is as if in their zeal to defend against a perceived attack on their school's honor, some students managed only to dishonor that which they wished to protect.

I am thinking a pebble (Dawn's presentation and post) was dropped into the small pond which is the school, and the resulting ripples disturbed the relative tranquility of the pond's inhabitants. Instead of simply weathering the brief disturbance though, a certain few felt the need to curse the ripples and condemn the pebble. Now to the larger world this appears irrational and mean-spirited, for the pebble did no real harm and ripples would cease soon enough, but to those who know nothing but life in the pond prior to the disturbance such things seem reasonable and defensible.

Soon enough these students will find themselves swimming in a lake or ocean and the spirit and unity of their old pond will no longer matter. What will matter is whether or not they are prepared to embrace and defend the virtuous life, especially when the waters become far rougher. Hopefully this is when the message Dawn planted blossoms. So keep planting those seeds Dawn; and to the students who have ears, hear.
Mr Sammo | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 11:08 pm | #

It's funny that the negative reactions seem to have split down the middle. One group of students were annoyed that Dawn was dissing sex, but another - maybe even the larger part of the commenters - seemed angry at her for talking about the pleasures of sex. They're all mingled here in the combox, but there are two distinct criticisms going on here.

I think we're used to expecting that some young people will feel condemned, and that this discussion has focused on that. But I'm finding the other aspect fascinating: the commenters who make clear that they do value chastity, but are nevertheless angry at Dawn.

One thing I think that explains some of the students' reaction is that sex is an intimate thing. It's very, very uncomfortable to be herded into a gym and listen to talk about the most intimate parts of your life while the guy you crush on in Math class, and the girls you share your secrets with in the washroom, are crushed up beside you. I've never found Chastity presentations comfortable myself, and I'm 25. I *hate* hearing too much private information about people's lives. I think I would like hearing Dawn speak, because she takes a different approach, but the subject itself is difficult.

That's my best excuse for their revulsion, but I suspect there's also some good old teenage self-righteousness going along. It comes in all flavours. There are the kids who think their school community is so wonderful it's immune to any criticism. And then there's the sort who believe that there's absolutely no way they'll ever fall into sin or make the bad decisions their parents/teachers/chastity speakers made. :-) Some of the comments had a "We're not stupid like you were" tinge to them, din't they?
Eileen R | 05.01.08 - 12:46 am | #

Is it possible, Dawn, that your specific message and its personal aspects are better directed towards a slightly more mature audience, those who can more closely relate to the Dawn Eden story?

No, teens need to hear this specific message, as well as the personal aspects (with an age appropriate presentation). I've twice now taught chastity and human sexuality classes to 8th graders in CCD, and in a better world, that would be too early, but in the modern world that we are presented with, too many kids of that age are already sexually active -- or they want to be, or are at least very curious about it.

They especially need to hear the moral aspects of it since it is very likely that all they get from school or parents are the practical reasons for delaying sexual activity.

As for the, shall we say, impolite comments from students -- where are the nuns with the rulers when you need them??
Bender | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 2:44 am | #

OK, reading through a few more of these students' comments --

These are high school students, right? They're not delicate little third graders who whimper and tear up at the slightest little thing?

Instead of throwing their little tantrums, if they think that they have been so mortally wounded, perhaps they need to just OFFER IT UP. Again, where is Sister to put the smack down on them when you need her?
Bender | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 2:56 am | #

I read the initial post and had not one bad thought about Holy Cross. I just thought, "hmm, a tough crowd." That's it. Now I have a very, very negative view of Holy Cross, and the comments left on this blog from you schoolmates are the sole reason. Just that, nothing else.

I would like to echo those expressed sentiments that after having read Dawn's original post I did not entertain any negative opinions or feelings about Holy Cross or its students. Once some of the comments made by the students came to light, however, that is when I began to have some negative thoughts about the school. It is as if in their zeal to defend against a perceived attack on their school's honor, some students managed only to dishonor that which they wished to protect.

Ditto.
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 4:01 am | #

And also its GREAT how 40 year olds are commenting and attacking high school students really looks good on your part =]

I wonder of their parents and teachers are aware that they come on this blog and speak to adults as they have. The world has changed since I was young. I was taught to be respectful to others (especially adults), even if I did not agree with the message.

I also do not believe all this whining and kvetshn is because Dawn mentioned sex is pleasurable and short skirts are distracting to men. They didn't like being told how to act. Someone thought it was cute to come up in here without thinking and say (to sum it up) "Dawn your talk was dumb". When it was addressed some of them decided they had to find something tangible to argue to save face.

Been in many a debate with a teenager...
"Clean your room"

"Well, I would clean my room and make my bed if only you didn't hang my sister's winter clothes in my closet..and how can you expect me to clean my room when my brothers are annoying people? Let's not forget we are stuck here in Upstate NY! Why would you bring me here where it's boring? That's why I don't even care if my room is clean because I hate where we live!"
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 4:22 am | #

Bully Awareness Day, huh? I don't think the message took, since it seems that a group of students used foul language, personal insults and threats of violence (which if memory serves is a criminal offense) against an individual whose opinion they didn't agree with.

While I can't speak for Dawn, I will commend the students that have come back with apologies and coherent arguments but your previous comments were very rude. Since you have often mentioned how good your school is and how bright the student population, maybe you can learn a lesson from this episode and think twice before acting out of anger the next time someone 'insults' you. Words spoken in anger can often never be taken back and one needs only look at the conflicts in the world today to see how harmful this mentality is.
LOR | 05.01.08 - 6:55 am | #

Ill-mannered teenagers will behave like ill-mannered teenagers. And their speech won't be pretty. Still, how awful. I don't know how I would have handled this kind of vitriol. Cheers for Dawn Eden! Wii luv u! :-D
antiaphrodite | 05.01.08 - 7:19 am | #

"I am lucky, at sixteen years old, to know who I am, what I want to be, and to have a concrete set of morals and values."

Lucky indeed, to have accomplished a life's work at so tender an age.
hammerdan | 05.01.08 - 7:56 am | #

While I agree Dawn got a rough ride - and some of the original comments made me flinch with great distaste too - Eileen R's comment above was terrific.

Especially: ...That's my best excuse for their revulsion, but I suspect there's also some good old teenage self-righteousness going along. It comes in all flavours.

I honestly tend to think that if you are young and don't suspect you can make a better job of the world than your elders have, there is something amiss.

There's been an it-was-ever-thus clash here between the self-righteousness of the inexperienced and the perceived self-righteousness of the experienced (Dawn).

Bender's "nuns with rulers" suggestion made me laugh. It's so right - and so wrong at the same time:)
Jody Tresidder | 05.01.08 - 8:17 am | #

I honestly tend to think that if you are young and don't suspect you can make a better job of the world than your elders have, there is something amiss.

There's been an it-was-ever-thus clash here between the self-righteousness of the inexperienced and the perceived self-righteousness of the experienced (Dawn).

Although it was more than a couple years back, I more or less remember my self-righteousness of inexperience. In fact, there are several conversations I had with older, wiser people that I remember very clearly and with acute embarrassment.

Be that as it may, I don't ever remember spewing such disrespect. Even though I thought I knew better, I still had an amount of humility that (for the most part) seems to be lacking here. I wonder if this is simply a case of the anonymity afforded people by the internet. Or maybe my mama just raised me right. Could go either way.
Amy K. | 05.01.08 - 8:35 am | #

The Pentecost novena starts Friday. It's a perfect time to pray to the Holy Spirit for gifts of grace for all involved in the work of delivering the message of truth, as well as (and especially) those who are engaged in the work of hearing the truth.
rebecca | 05.01.08 - 8:51 am | #

And also its GREAT how 40 year olds are commenting and attacking high school students really looks good on your part =]

I think this is an important engagement here.

The early comments from HCC students were, yes, incoherent. But even the more recent, coherent statements are defensive. And, honestly, Dawn's friends circling the wagons is not a little defensive as well. I certainly felt it.

Something interesting, though. The smarter of the HCC commenters are probably used to besting their peers in rational argument and debate. They're not used to being "ganged up on" by thoughtful, rational adults.

Of the grown ups here, do you remember the first time you tried to take on someone who had many years of adult experience behind them? There's kind of a rite of passage taking place, at least for some of the HCC students who have commented here. They are playing up a division, as it were, perhaps for the first time.

HCCstudent, if you're still following the comments, good on you for trying to take your game up a notch.

I still think you're missing a lot of key points about sex and the body and the human person, and I've had a lot more time to think about this than you have. But you're playing up, and you're making some coherent points.

Keep at it. Don't think you're done yet. Yes, at 16, to have some idea of something about yourself is a great achievement. But you're not done. You won't be done until God has brought to completion the good work he has begun in you.

And if you really want to make a strong argument that completely destroys anything we might have to say about sex, start by reading Dawn's book and find ways to pull her position apart. Of course, you'll want to do it with charity, without personal attacks. But read her book, figure out where her "argument" in favor of chastity falls apart, and then come back and tells us.
Dcn. Dennis | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 9:02 am | #

Eileen's comment above is quite pertinent. I remember most of the mandatory speakers/events that I had to attend in HS. For the most part, no one really cared about the speaker or the message. It was normally an opportunity to joke, giggle, and laugh; and to posture in front of our friends. God forbid we actually engage the speaker on the topic at hand, that'd be a first-class ticket to ridicule.
Chris Molter | 05.01.08 - 9:05 am | #

Pansy Moss:

Surely you must inform your children that as they already live in the cultural center of the known universe, they can only face heartache and disappointment when they go somewhere else. Rejoice! Again I say REJOICE!
Robert N G | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 9:16 am | #

I have been rather disturbed by the anger and patronization being thrown in the direction of a particular school in Canada in these posts and comments. As a chastity educator to grade school and high school students, I am well aware that one cannot expect to receive respect from the audience, if one does not respect his audience. We have an incredible example of this respect and love in Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, who repeatedly expect great things from young people, regardless of what stereotypes society presents us with.

One of the blessings of presenting to teenagers over the past year has been raising my respect for them. Sure, not everyone agrees with the message of chastity, but resistance or ridicule only call me to love them more. I have a deep respect for the thousands of young people I have presented to, simply based on the fact that all of them were created in the image and likeness of God and are called to live with Him eternally. They have this inherent dignity regardless of how they treat me.

I think what is fundamentally lacking in all of this bantering is love. No matter how someone treats us, we are called to love them. This isn’t easy, but it is our primary vocation as Christians. Once again, we have a beautiful witness to this unconditional love in Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI.

I love the story of Pope John Paul II, who constantly respected and loved young people, regardless of their response to him. On his death bed, when hearing that thousands of young people were praying outside of his window, he said, “I have searched for you, and now you have come to me, and I thank you." Perhaps this was one of the first times the late Holy Father realized that young people were actually responding to him, yet this doubt was never reflected in his words or actions.

Finally, Pope Benedict XVI said, “… it is not true that young people think only of consumerism and pleasure. It is not true that they are materialistic and self-centered. Just the opposite is true: young people want great things. They want an end to injustice. They want inequalities to be overcome and all peoples to have their share in the earth’s goods. They want freedom for the oppressed. They want great things, good things.”

May we all take these words to heart as we strive to grow in holiness, together with all of God’s children, regardless of age.
Emily | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 9:21 am | #

That was beautiful Emily! Thank you for sharing that insight.
Anne | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 9:31 am | #

Although it was more than a couple years back, I more or less remember my self-righteousness of inexperience. In fact, there are several conversations I had with older, wiser people that I remember very clearly and with acute embarrassment.

Be that as it may, I don't ever remember spewing such disrespect.

That's what absolutely baffles me!!! I feel so grateful that in those moments of teenage-know-it allness, I had enough sense to nod and keep my sneering to myself. I am glad my thoughts were basically mine alone and I never caused a scene allowing people to know what was really in my head.
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 9:37 am | #

Emily, I agree with you that love is necessary in responding in children, and so have removed the comment stating the kids need a kick in the hind part. But I think Bender has a point in longing for the days when nuns ruled the world.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 9:51 am | #

"And also its GREAT how 40 year olds are commenting and attacking high school students really looks good on your part =]"

This is a telling comment. I think a great deal of the problem comes from the mistaken idea that if someone takes a position contrary to your own, they are "attacking" you, your lifestyle and your values.

So, when Dawn says "chastity is better than unchastity", some people take it as a full-on personal assault. It's not that unusual among even mature people, let alone youth. Just try to question, say, global warming or gay marriage on a college campus, and see how well you get on. Such speech is received not as reasoned argument, but as a dangerous assault on Right Thinking People. It's just the latest incarnation of McCarthyism.

---------

"I am well aware that one cannot expect to receive respect from the audience, if one does not respect his audience"

You assume a great deal.

"I think what is fundamentally lacking in all of this bantering is love."

And I think you may be fundamentally confused as to what love looks like.
Tim J. | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 10:03 am | #

That's what absolutely baffles me!!! I feel so grateful that in those moments of teenage-know-it allness, I had enough sense to nod and keep my sneering to myself. I am glad my thoughts were basically mine alone and I never caused a scene allowing people to know what was really in my head.

Same here. I would just roll my eyes. I would never have had the nerve to write or say such rude things. I would have gotten a belt to my backside if I had. This is why I think both Sydney and Bender had a point. Love isn't always huggy, kissy and indulgent.
Susan B. | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 10:32 am | #

Hey, I'm all for standing up for yourself, defending your honor (or your school's), and generally challenging authority. A little bit of teenage rebellion is a good thing.

But there is a proper and effective and classy (and cool) way of doing that, and then there is the way of the whiny cry-baby and the punk. And there is a time and place for everything, and time when one should suffer wrongs patiently.

I don't necessarily think that "these young whippersnappers need to learn their elders some respect!" but they should learn how to engage in (and win) an adversarial dialogue. To defend your honor by acting dishonorably is contradictory, to say the least. And if you must get down into the gutter and muck, do not be surprised if those bigger and more experienced than you pound your punk-a** into the ground. Perhaps, since they (and we) have all been through excruciatingly boring and painful forced group meetings and assemblies (not to say that Dawn's was, I'm sure that it was, as always, very good), they should have by now learned to put up with it graciously.

Again, suffer wrong patiently. And if you can't do that, offer it up. And if you can't do that, then choose your words carefully so that you prove yourself the better person, not the worst.
Bender | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 11:05 am | #

but they should learn how to engage in (and win) an adversarial dialogue.

Hear, hear! That's why my first comments were about the lack of a coherency. How in the world do you get to be a high school senior without being able to put your thoughts to paper in order to convey a message.

Now that we've got all that out of the way, I feel an urge to go down to the pub and lift a few pints and get down to the business of actually trading ideas back and forth. That's the enjoyable part.

The whippersnappers get sarsparilla.
Amy K. | 05.01.08 - 11:17 am | #

The whippersnappers get sarsparilla.

LOL!
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 11:46 am | #

You are the epitome of grace under fire, Dawn. Good on you!

And it's not like you need to be told this, but laugh those comments off, Dawn. Teenagers try on controversy and badly-fitting, poorly articulated ideology like they do badly-fitting, poorly conceptualized trendy clothes. It's like infants, developing their lungs through howling. Hopefully their engagement will transform into something more logical and coherent in the future!
Anonymous | 05.01.08 - 12:15 pm | #

I am a parent of two teenagers.
What I am reading in these comments from the students is a common theme among teens today (maybe not just today): their utter inability to say the words "I was wrong" or "I'm sorry" without following it up with "but..."
Didymus | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 12:35 pm | #

I am a parent of two teenagers.
What I am reading in these comments from the students is a common theme among teens today (maybe not just today): their utter inability to say the words "I was wrong" or "I'm sorry" without following it up with "but...">>>

That's true about many adults as well.
Neil C | 05.01.08 - 2:04 pm | #

I am a student here at hcc and while i don't support many of the extremely rude comments made to you, i have to say im proud of the students for sticking up for themselves.

This is really never going to be resolved. We all have different opinions, and there's nothing your speeches can do to really ever change that. People do what they think is right for them, and by you bashing them and posting pictures of the students to prove your point is low.

You are judging our school by some girls who choose to wear their kilts short, basically calling us sluts and making it seem like we're the worst school out there. which is laughable because there are SO many schools who are SO much worse, wow.

You came to our school not even FOR A DAY, and you already think you've 'summed' us up. That's unfair because the majority of us don't dress like that or have sex. And if those that do, are you justified to center them out the way you did? No, and you really should rethink it. Just because you've had past experiences dealing with this, doesn't make you a top expert.

Oh, and by the way to all those people commenting on hcc's grammar, get a life. You're only saying that because you find anything else wrong about what we're saying.
Holy Cross not Holy Chastity | 05.01.08 - 7:18 pm | #

as a last note, i forgot to mention. i think it was right for you Dawn to put up what some of those hcc students said. i disagree with a lot of them and feel you shouldn't have been disrepected like that. For them, i apolgize.
Holy Cross not Holy Chastity | 05.01.08 - 7:27 pm | #

Hi Dawn
I'm a Holy Cross student who didn't even go to the assembly, the reason being is because our school was cut in half and only the older students went, I guess maybe because some other schools were appalled at some of the things you said- I'm not quite sure. But One thing that got under my skin was the fact that you bring up my teachers and Principals and how they and I Quote "(2) The principal, while sitting with the students on the floor, made no effort to urge them to be more respectful, and neither did any other staff." - Dawn if you had a problem at the time, you would of just asked the students to be a little more respectful. Come On! you had the floor, but instead you say- I like that your chattering, It means it's awkward and it should be.(note: everyone I talked to didn't find it awkward at all, mostly just boring) right there that shows that you don't care if they listen to you. So don't go saying anything about Our Principal or Staff Members for not doing anything. And everyone commenting on "language" some of us used not being grammatically correct, I think you should stop, It's not doing any good just fueling the fire and getting them going for another tear! We do not have lack of english in our school and all -every single teacher and principal in our school does a great job and for that we give them a lot of respect! They have done their job- exceptionally well and I think going and writing on your little blog about it isn't the way to go about it. unless your trying to undercut and demean the faculty at Holy Cross Catholic Secondary which I kind of suspect your doing. I mean- just something to get back at the students right? because I don't think our staff told you you did a horrible job.
That about sums it up! Thanks
Holy Cross Student | 05.0