Well, those comments should shatter any illusions anyone may still have about Canadians being nice! (And I say that as one...)

Dawn, I know I sure couldn't have remained as calm facing that kind of vitriol as you have. And even in the face of harassment, you manage to pull out the punny headlines. You must have lots of people praying for you!
Frank | 04.29.08 - 11:47 pm | #

Dawn - kids like these are why I hated high school and why I would NEVER do the particular work you do, unless my salvation absolutely depended on it.

I'm of the strong opinion that HCC needs to step up its English courses, especially in the areas of grammar, spelling, and vocabulary...

I will be praying for you and for these potty-mouth students.
Embarrassed in Ontario | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 12:10 am | #

Good for you, Dawn, for turning the other cheek, and not stooping to their level of incivility -- perhaps, by your example, you taught even those who didn't embrace your message something about manners.
L. | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 12:23 am | #

Thanks, all!
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 12:24 am | #

Was their a pig's head on a pole that perhaps you might have missed on the way into the presentation? That might have served as some kind of warning. Though a couple of references to 1984, even if slightly misrepresented, is somewhat hopeful.
Pat Patterson | 04.30.08 - 12:33 am | #

I've been thinking that one thing that may have contributed to these outpourings is the cultural disconnect between Canadian and American Catholicism, and between Canadian and American politics as well.

First, there is no real Canadian equivalent to the "culture wars" in the US, and their red state/blue state geographical divisions. Second, even devout Canadian Catholics are far less likely to associate political conservatism with Catholicism than are their American brethren. Politically, many of them are still rather like American Catholics circa 1965.

This is a subtle point, and hard to explain because I expect you didn't make any direct political references in your talks. But, for example, statistics like the fact that those who are sexually active being less likely to graduate from high school, have a political element in them. They are a commonplace to American conservative thinkers (and I don't doubt that there's some truth in that one) but they have simply not been part of our political culture here, in part because we have considerably lower rates of teen pregnancy.

And the final issue - though none of these students appears to have raised it directly - may be the fact that Canadians often have an intense, visceral distaste for any hint of criticism from an American, even if the criticism has nothing to do with their nationality. I don't mean that you shouldn't have made any criticisms, just that this attitude is common here.

I was distressed and embarrassed as a Canadian to read their vitriol, but a few of them seem to be backing off, and perhaps it wasn't wise to post the pictures, so I'm glad you took them down. Still, I'm sorry it turned out to be an ordeal for you.
alias clio | 04.30.08 - 1:06 am | #

It's too bad that mention of "renewal in Christ" would fall on such deaf ears and stony hearts - at a Catholic school. Almight God, bring the rain, soften the hard ground and convert hearts. Through the prayers of Mary Immaculate and Dawn's patron, St. Max.
John | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 2:00 am | #

Welcome to Ontario's public Catholic School system. (Even Archbishop Miller- Vatican guy for Catholic Education- refers to it as an example of failure to remain faithful through compromising...and he's a former student!).

I'm sure not all schools could be that bad, however, in previous 'news archive searching' (on another matter) it seemed like the London Board might be one of the best!

What were the reactions in the other schools?
lwestin | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 2:08 am | #

I'm of the strong opinion that HCC needs to step up its English courses, especially in the areas of grammar, spelling, and vocabulary...

Yes, I found this deliciously ironic. Many of them complained that Dawn's presentation was lacking. Yet, their disjointed rantings were to be taken very seriously. Forgot the grammar, spelling and vocabulary; find a way to make a coherent point.
Amy K. | 04.30.08 - 2:25 am | #

Although I will say, two of them did use sentences and paragraphs correctly and managed to arrange their thoughts in a cognizable manner. Even though I disagreed with their points, that was much appreciated you two. I think it was hccstudent and Annie.
Amy K. | 04.30.08 - 2:28 am | #

Dawn, search your heart and ask if you really needed to quote all of those obnoxious student comments. Is the point of this post to apologize and explain, or to hold HCC students up for ridicule?
Joan | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 2:35 am | #

I mention the following because it is relevant to the broader Catholic context in Canada, of which the state of the faith as it is taught (or not) in Catholic schools is a part. . .

A handful of years ago, I attended a conference of priests that was hosted in a prominent Canadian city. I was one of the few laymen there among a crowd of clerics. I worked for a Catholic non-profit at the time and was there to represent them. One of the keynote speakers was a Canadian bishop (I'll refrain from saying who). Amidst an otherwise forgettable speech, this bishop actually made fun of the sacrament of penance. I couldn't believe my ears. But it is true. I took notes at the event. I was so shocked and dismayed I'll never forget it. His tone was most definitely of belittling Catholics who are frequent confession-goers. This, coming from a bishop--a successor of the Apostles--to a gathering of priests who are themselves the ministers of the sacrament of penance as well as penitents. It was unbelievable. Even though I was aware things were bad in some episcopal circles, I would never have imagined hearing a bishop publicly ridicule a sacrament of Christ if I had not personally witnessed it.

This did not make any news that I noticed (Catholic or secular) because the specific talk at which this occurred if memory serves me was closed to the media. And there was definitely an aura of "in-the-family" confidentiality present, though nothing to this effect had been stated.

I don't say this to try to denigrate a particular bishop or the episcopacy overall. And hopefully this was not characteristic of Canadian bishops in general. But, at least going by this one event it does suggest that the level of denigration of the Catholic faith that at least one Canadian bishop not only tolerates but personally participates in, is beyond anything I could imagine seeing in the U.S. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think even the least magisterially supportive American bishops would ever stoop to the level of mocking a sacrament before a gathering of priests. I wouldn't have much hope for the quality of religious instruction in Catholic schools under a bishop such as this.

I should also report, thankfully, that the gathered priests did not seem to share the bishop's sentiments. They were unresponsive to this portion of the talk. And I could tell that at least a few of them were quite disturbed and perhaps embarrassed at these remarks. Pray to God this was an anomaly of one and not likely to be found among other Canadian bishops, nor any other bishops anywhere.
Scott J | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 2:48 am | #

As a Canadian, I'm rather embarrassed by the reaction of the students. Though, I guess I should be even more embarrassed as a Catholic.

It looks to me like your initial assessment was correct and that these students were probably more hostile to your message than most. I've only seen your talks online, but what I've seen has been intelligible and focused. I think the students just immediately went on the defensive and then heard what they wanted to hear.

Also, as someone stated above, there was probably a latent anti-Americanism as well.
George G. | 04.30.08 - 3:11 am | #

I can't speak to Dawn's personal motivations, but I do think that there is a potentially positive purpose (not the only one) to Dawn's posting the students' hostile comments.

And that is to reveal just how far some teenagers have descended into a completely self-absorbed world. We catch a glimpse here of the trajectory of their uncivil, inhuman, animalistic, irrational, heartless, amoral hedonism. This is not the case, I am sure, with most young people. But there is a minority whose level of immature pleasure-seeking, devoid of any moral framework other than to "do what you feel like," is going to produce future manifestations of indifference and an absence of responsibility to society that will shock even those who read the news today.

It's already happening. Notice the increasingly senseless, violent, and cruel things done by younger and younger kids. The same circle of kids who brag shamelessly and triumphantly about how sex is fun and impudently tell adults to mind their own business are, I am certain, developing the same sort of spiritual deformations that will result some day in a teen who can't see any reason to restrain himself from wanting to shoot his grandparents in a fit of rebellious rage.

I think this is instructive because it is all too easy as adults to go about our business, ignorant of what happens in our school systems. We too easily allow the shaping of the mores of the young to remain exclusively the purview of professional educators. Many adults don't know just how bad things have become in some schools. In the future when these kids are preying on the most vulnerable and helpless members of society simply for their own kicks, with no compunction, it will be too late.

My parents are both lifelong teachers. And the changes they have witnessed toward a greater and greater level of self-absorption and callousness among (especially teenage) students is very disturbing. I speak here of a minority of students, yet, the degree of heartlessness toward other human beings of a small portion of them will reap untold and lasting damage to human society far beyond their numbers. Some of the kids who responded so inappropriately to Dawn, I fear, if they do not change course, may be among this lot. And it is good for the adults in the world not to be ignorant of this growing disaster.

So, shouldn't we all ask ourselves, what could I be doing to help prevent the kids within my own sphere of influence from becoming so lacking in the fundamental character essential to embracing an authentically full and truly human life? We know that such kids as wrote to Dawn with such vitriol, without serious transformation, and despite their smug self-righteousness, are headed for a life of deep spiritual confusion and joylessness. It will take much more from society than a few talks in high schools by courageous people like Dawn to reverse this poisonous trend (though this is important work!).

May we all beg God to love our youth enough to get more involved. The enemy of Christ is forever active using every tool he can to ensnare more kids into empty lifestyles. We must beg our Lord to give us the grace to actively oppose him at every turn and never give up.
Scott J | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 4:07 am | #

I don't see any problem with Dawn posting the students' comments--they're all in the combox for everyone to read anyway--and I think what's posted is pretty representative of what's in the combox.

Also, I have no problem with ridiculing the ridiculous.
George G. | 04.30.08 - 4:42 am | #

If anything should prove an embarrassment to the school and the teachers, it must be those letters which you were so courageous to print. I think you mentioned that a good portion of students there are non-Catholic--I guess I'm glad of that; they certainly do not have Catholic viewpoints.

Ironic that earlier this year you spoke about the scandalous actions of the president of my own alma mater, Holy Cross College in Worcester, Massachusetts. These institutions seem to be trampling on the Cross instead of raising it.
Bud | 04.30.08 - 6:41 am | #

"You said you'd missed your chance to have kids? Good. You would only f-ck them up."

Sounds like this one didn't need your help on that path.
I agree that there's hope if they know things like 1984. Maybe they'll see some of the parallels in national school systems controlling thought.
Andy | 04.30.08 - 7:32 am | #

I think there are several things going on within the students' remarks. The remarks are without civility, sure. Also, they don't know how to enter into someone else's subjectivity. They see themselves as subjects, but they do not see others as subjects. They see others as objects.

We know that Dawn is a subject, and when she writes her impressions of things, she writes them in her subjectivity. This is also how she approaches her experience of sexuality, not by telling other people what they ought or ought not do, but by speaking from her own experience as a subject. She tries to write about her impressions, and has experience as a journalist in doing it.

Adolescents, by and large, find it difficult to recognize the subjectivity of other people. Most of them have been taught something like good manners to prevent them from doing to much damage by their inability to see things from someone else's point of view. But some can't do it. In most social circumstances, fear of immediate consequences might make them think twice about spewing vitriol at everything that discomforts them for 15 minutes, but in the magical world of Internet, there are no consequences.

As to teachers agreeing with them, it's possible that teachers didn't like the talk for any number of reasons. When I was a public school teacher, I hated all mandatory assemblies equally. It meant messing up my lesson plans. It meant being a chaperon in a gymnasium full of kids, most of whose names I did not know, and it meant inconveniencing me personally in several other little ways. The "Don't Do Drugs" speaker was disliked by me as much as the "You Can Do It" speaker. It almost NEVER had anything to do with the content of the presentation. And if it did, it had more to do with my opinion of the best way to deliver that information. The really pumped-up weightlifting motivational speakers just weren't my thing. Sure, "Achieve Your Dreams" is a fine message, but maybe I'm not into weightlifting.

The students, on the other hand, might not have the subtlety to sort out the possible meanings of a teacher's comments. Suppose a teacher said, "Well, that was a waste of time." That teacher could mean anything from, "I'm not going to stop having sex with my boyfriend, and I don't like it when people make me question my own choices" to "I really needed to get this exam material handled this week and now we're behind."

Ok, gotta get ready for morning prayer and mass. I hope the haters from the HCC don't mind someone remembering them in prayer. And in the same breath as someone praying for Dawn too.
Dcn. Dennis | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 7:50 am | #

Without exception, they all used bad grammar and poor English. When I receive emails like that, I simply delete them. I'd suggest you give those comments all the attention due - and just forget them.
CuriousFeller | 04.30.08 - 8:45 am | #

Oh, Dawn....this was painful to read. I've given chastity talks to high school groups, and know firsthand the outright and seething hostility one faces when giving such a blatant counter-cultural message - one's own witness to the joy of chastity. I have always known that the hostility was there even before I was introduced to speak a word - right away the message threatens all they know (which isn't much and which is already severely corrupted and distorted).

I think what chastity educators provoke (and not deliberately, but rather by virtue of the message itself) is a sense of guilt or confusion deep in these kids' hearts. We threaten their own sense of self, however immature and bungled, and they respond with daggers in their eyes. They completely miss the love and promise of joy that's being held out to them.

I am so sorry you encountered this reaction, but my prayer is that God will continue to work grace into their hearts and minds, and that over time (His time) they will come to understand the meaning of your message.

Don't personalize this - Christ has already taken it all for you. My hope is that in 20 years, there will be at last one of them who will be giving chastity talks, and they'll open it up by saying, "20 years ago, this crazy lady spoke at my high school, and I thought she was nuts...."

God works in mysterious ways!
rebecca | 04.30.08 - 8:52 am | #

Having given talks to students in American Catholic parishes and schools (on Confession, not Chastity), I can't say I'm terribly surprised.

While the majority of students listen and are polite and try to follow their faith, I have encountered many who have lashed out -seemingly at me, but it's really their perception of the Church.

There are a lot of layers to the vitriol expressed in these student posts. I can't even begin to scratch the surface, but I give Dawn her props in responding so calmly.

Up until now, Dawn, you've given your talks to young adults of the 20, 30 and 40 age range. Taking it to this younger set brings a new set of challenges!

Hang tough!
June | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 9:10 am | #

Sometimes the people who lash out the hardest are the ones who are in the deepest denial and know that what they are doing is wrong but don't want to change so they attack the messenger that is calling them to change...

I agree with a lot of the commenters who mentioned the lack of grammar, spelling and cohesive thought in their missives. I find it deplorable that High School students are unable to write and compose coherently! And then they wonder why they can't find/hold jobs after graduation?!? Also the level of vitriol and hate in the messages is very disturbing. Truly a sign of the times when you see high school students who can't write or spell telling you you're in the wrong b/c they don't agree with your thoughts and beliefs...talk about moral relativism...
sam | 04.30.08 - 9:23 am | #

Joan asked: Dawn, search your heart and ask if you really needed to quote all of those obnoxious student comments. Is the point of this post to apologize and explain, or to hold HCC students up for ridicule?

My unsolicited response: If these kids are going to publicly post their comments, then they have to be prepared to be quoted. Sometimes it’s good to hold a mirror up to someone’s face to let them know what they look like. Dawn has apologized for any points she thought she needed to apologize for and there’s no excuse for the barrage of hate, vulgarity, and poor grammar she’s just been subjected to.
Embarrassed in Ontario | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 9:40 am | #

Thinking a little more about this, I realize there are a couple of things I recognize, from this year's confirmation class here.

1) The tendency of the listener to translate a positive message about one thing , into a negative judgement about themselves. Because you were speaking about chastity, and consequences, they 'heard' you judging them negatively (although I'm sure you didn't actually have ANY personal knowledge of them!). This shows a distinct inability to reason. Its also somewhat dishonest.

2) Because they have decided that you are 'judging ' them, they wish to 'get even', and feel justified. This shows a moral vacancy that is disturbing.

At least they weren't the confirmation class you had been helping to prepare for the last three years, and thankfully their 'attack ' is limited to your comments box.


Its hard to see how the parents aren't directly responsible for this particular perspective on life - the 'everything is about me' perspective. We have TWO generations of people not quite 'getting' the Christian message, let alone Catholic!
lwestin | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 9:47 am | #

No good deed goes unpunished. I think it is interesting how a couple of the kids justified their reactions by saying "Even the teachers hated it". The rot sometimes starts at the top and trickles down.
Janjan | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 10:10 am | #

Hmm. Is anyone surprised that adolescents are acting like -- uh, you know -- adolescents?

Is it possible, Dawn, that your specific message and its personal aspects are better directed towards a slightly more mature audience, those who can more closely relate to the Dawn Eden story?

To be biblical about it, though, think of it as planting seeds. Those who plant the seeds may not necessarily be the ones who harvest them. You have planted; go in the peace of Christ!
C.J. | 04.30.08 - 10:20 am | #

To be honest, if I remember my high school days in the halycon days of yore (and mine), I think any assembly, even if they were giving out free ice cream, was an excuse to not be in class and nothing more. I know I spent most of assemblies talking with my friends. If they were listening to you, even if they disagreed, it's a victory. Now if only they had better grammar and spelling.....but that seems par for any school these days. To be honest, I'm surprised Dawn didn't delete some of the more vitriolic posts. Unless the whole point was to deflate disagreements by leaving the poorly worded ones up.
Neil C | 04.30.08 - 10:54 am | #

I'll attempt to be positive about this sad story. Is it possible that the comments represent a small percentage of the entire student body? Is it possible that the majority of students left the presentation and privately gave it deep thought? Is it possible that the majority of students of this high school know the difference between there, their, and they're? I couldn't afford to send my kids to Catholic school and until now I've regretted not going into debt to send them to better schools. Now, my regret is lessened.
LargeBill | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 10:55 am | #

Hi Dawn,

I think these childish over-reactions are evidence that you reached them, although they'll surely deny it.

Also, while Canadian Anti-Americanism may have some effect, the multiple references to a teacher who disapproves of your message hints at another likely cause.
Memphis Aggie | 04.30.08 - 10:58 am | #

No doubt you planted seeds that in some cases, will sprout in 10 - 20 years. In other cases, never.

Face to Holy Face, Jesus "lost" the rich young man when he was challenged to give up the fruits of his heart, so too teens and their herd mentality will reject and rebel.John Chapter 6 and Luke 4 show the same happening to Christ.

The knocks, diatribes, rage and personal attacks indicates that THEY LISTENED AND HEARD what you said. And they did not like the message because it is the truth and probably the first real challenge they ever faced to their "values". No one sane can attack the truth, so they attack the messenger.

Well done.

Dan of the Westchester
Daniel Kane | 04.30.08 - 11:06 am | #

What were the reactions in the other schools?

Significantly better. I've added an "Ontario HS tour" tag to the post--click on it and you'll see my commentary along with photos of some of the other schools, including shots of students coming up to me after my talk. (Two HCC students did come up to me after my talk there and posed for a photo with me and gave permission for me to put the photo on my blog. I have not published the photo for fear of how the students might be treated by their peers were it to appear online.)

What struck me as different about HCC's reaction was:

(1) The crowd was unusually noisy, owing in part to the horseshoe seating setup on the gym's floor. Students who were talking were immediately visible to all the other students, creating a greater distraction.

(2) The principal, while sitting with the students on the floor, made no effort to urge them to be more respectful, and neither did any other staff.

Dawn, search your heart and ask if you really needed to quote all of those obnoxious student comments. Is the point of this post to apologize and explain, or to hold HCC students up for ridicule?

I appreciate how other commenters have responded to the above by backing up my decision to use the students' comments. Their reasoning is similar to my own. I would add that I have in fact avoided identifying individual students when I could have done so. I had the full name and IP address of the student who made threats against me, and have refrained from publishing it, realizing that it could hurt his future job prospects.

As another commenter mentioned, the students have already put their comments onto the Internet. If their teachers and parents have, in instructing them on "1984" and "cultural relativism," left out lessons in civility, then the students should at least learn that, on the Internet, what has been spoken in closets will be shouted from housetops.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 11:13 am | #

I really hope the school pays attention to the violence in some of those messages. Those need to be taken seriously.
John | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 11:16 am | #

Ditto to many of the above comments, especially Scott J. at 4:07am.

One thing that jumped out at me because I've heard it often was the "I'm a good person" idea, with the implication that this goodness is inherently pristine and unaffected by anything that I actually do. You can kind of see where this comes from in the self-esteem culture of the past 30 yrs or so. An editorial I read recently in the student paper of a Catholic college asserted that the essence of Catholicism is not judging anything anybody does.

Dawn, the fact that you face this kind of thing on a regular basis is one reason why I try to remember to pray for you and your work every day. I sure couldn't handle it.
mac | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 11:43 am | #

Having arguments in comboxes is silly. Then again, so is High School.
Ben | 04.30.08 - 12:03 pm | #

Dawn,

I'm sorry you had to deal with all those nasty comments. Like I said in the other thread, it is the very nature of teenagers to think they know everything and don't have to listen to anyone. Hopefully, when they are older and wiser, they will regret the things they said.

What amazed me is that the whole idea of redemption eluded some of these kids. That is, that someone can mess up, repent, ask for God's forgiveness and receive it. Redemption *doesn't* mean it's okay to sin in the first place or that the sin doesn't matter. It *does* matter because Jesus suffered and died for that sin and all others committed by all of humanity. It just means you are forgiven and renewed and can try to live the way God wants you to. I mean, this is basic Christian theology. You would think students at a Catholic school would have some grasp of the concept.
Susan B. | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 12:07 pm | #

If one is unable to distinguish between the proper uses of "they're" and "their," then one is likely unable to make responsible decisions about sex, from either a religious or nonreligious standpoint.

The reverse, of course, does not necessarily hold true ;-)
Brett | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 12:34 pm | #

It's not just the uncivil and nasty tone of the kids' comments that bothers me, but also the seeming inability to put together any coherent communication... an apparently drastically impaired capacity to reason.

No discussion of concepts or ideas, only knee-jerk emotional responses.

I understand that not all the kids acted this way, but... man, is that bleak.
Tim J. | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 12:39 pm | #

I am sorry that they reacted so with such hostility, but the hard truth is that when you work with kids, you have to be prepared to face their anger. That being said, I am appalled at the lack of proper grammar and spelling. What are they learning? And I would suggest these kiddoes add _Lord of the Flies_ to their reading list. It makes a nice companion piece to _1984_.

I sort of dismissed the "teacher" comments out of hand. They may be speaking the truth, but one of the oldest tricks in the book is for a kid to try to add weight to what he or she is saying by using "the other teachers let me do ..." or "all the other teachers say ...". Often they just want some thing and think if you believe an adult thought so too, you might be more likely to give in.
aharris | 04.30.08 - 12:59 pm | #

, but because the outdated slang you were using (v-card? Is it 1998?) was ridiculous

Before I think of a constructive comment on anything else,I find the notion of Canadians acting like they are trend setters funny. Whatever slang they have, outdated or otherwise I would think was invented by Americans.

Black people got a saying: "she don't like to be told". This is a good example of just that. Many are having sex and many take pride in it. Many take pride in their short skirts like it is original.They don't want to hear there is something wrong with that.Teenagers like to think they invented hedonistic 60s era behavior.

If there were a speaker who showed up and said it was "cool to lose your v-card" or whatever slang they found archaic with a message patting them on the back for living a fun life and doing what they wanted, I doubt they would have even noticed or been annoyed.
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 1:34 pm | #

P.S. I didn't mean to diss Canadians, I just thought the point that was trying to be made about slang was a bit of a paradox.
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 1:49 pm | #

Whatever slang they have, outdated or otherwise I would think was invented by Americans.

Yeah, really not true, says this Canadian-American hybrid.
Terezia | 04.30.08 - 1:54 pm | #

WOW we are not the only catholic high school that has kilts and wears them short because wearing them long is UGLY, can you not let us enjoy our cellulite free legs while we have them.

Oh, the generational wars. Seems to me as if today's youth should value older people (and the fact that women in their 40s and 50s can be hot - I can't forget Renee Russo in the Thomas Crowne Affair), so that when they are old, they can reap the benefits. Beats the heck out of enjoying about ten years of your life and then spending the next sixty years trying to find those years again.
theobromophile | 04.30.08 - 2:10 pm | #

Before I think of a constructive comment on anything else,I find the notion of Canadians acting like they are trend setters funny. Whatever slang they have, outdated or otherwise I would think was invented by Americans. >>>

Reminds me of a joke in the television show, How I Met Your Mother. One character was a Canadian pop star in 1992, but she dressed up like Tiffany because in Canada "the 80s didn't come until around 1992."
Neil C | 04.30.08 - 2:14 pm | #

Jesus tells us in Scripture (in so many words) that sticking your neck out for for the Gospel leads inevitably, at some point, to criticism and/or mockery, if not death. This Scripture passage came to mind while reading the teens' comments. I'm glad He gave us fair warning. :)

Matthew 5:10-16
Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you (falsely) because of me.
Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven. Thus they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
"You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden.
Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house.
Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father.
Andrea | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 2:24 pm | #

I've worked with Italian College and high school kids for the past 27 yrs.

I couldn't imagine anything coming even close to this rampage of immaturity, and ( I borrow from above): "callousness and self-absorption".

The Pope got violent protests from student body La Sapienza University not to visit..

This raised a major uproar all over Italy as to what counts as tolerance and open-mindedness.


Wasn't Canada the beacon of even-headedness and thoughtful discussion in North America..?
Glenn | 04.30.08 - 3:00 pm | #

Whatever slang they have, outdated or otherwise I would think was invented by Americans.

Yeah, really not true, says this Canadian-American hybrid.

For example (a mainstream current slang term invented by Canadians that Americans use)?
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 3:10 pm | #

Do they teach Basic Grammar at that school??
Kevin | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 3:25 pm | #

Everyone seems to be of the mind that HCC students are whole-heartedly against chastity. Ironic, really, when you read the sarcasm and transparent comments on Dawn's blog. For someone who preaches directly from her bible, I would hope that they would practise morals residing from the same pages. Perhaps that is too much to ask.

We're a school that is very open to Catholic opinions and the teachings of more learned adults then us. We just don't enjoy sitting through an hour long presentation, wherein the most we could get out of it was that 'Spider Man' had underlying tones of chastity. I realise that many of the comments from HCC sounded incoherrent and rude, but can you blame us? We're proud of our school, and of our own individual values that we strive to protect.

I am sorry on behalf of my school that you felt we were attacking you on a personal level. It was not meant to be, many students were reacting out of anger. However, was it nessesary to reply to us in such a sarcastic and superior manner? You just fed into exactly what those angry students wanted by giving such a reaction. But, on another note, we do appreciate you removing the photo.

If you plan to pass such harsh judgements on us, I hope you yourself would be willing to live in a glass house.
cynical@HCC | 04.30.08 - 3:27 pm | #

And, please, stop trying to insinuate an anti-americanism tone about our school (this is directed at the previous commenters). Canada, and our school within, is and will be open to other cultures for as long as we are our own (we would hope).
cynical@HCC | 04.30.08 - 3:29 pm | #

For example (a mainstream current slang term invented by Canadians that Americans use)?

Pansy, I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you saying "for example" is a mainstream current slang term invented by Canadians?
Terezia | 04.30.08 - 3:36 pm | #

I really disliked you coming to our school not just because you said our skirts were to short but because you came into OUR school and basically insulted us.
You had absolutely no right.
Talking to some other students from other schools in the area they said you did the same thing.
I realize where you coming from but your message was TOTALLY unclear.

Frustrated.
HccStudent | 04.30.08 - 3:37 pm | #

I don't think it was needed to neccisary push the point farther. I think your message is great, however I must admit your speaking style is not that interesting to me. I say this with upmost respect to you, I'm a younger practicing Catholic I might add. I think that some speach coaching would be helpfull. Your message is great, and God bless you for all you do, but that's just my two cents.
Lissa | 04.30.08 - 3:40 pm | #

Hi Dawn,
Ouch! So sorry you had to endure some of the hurtful comments. I will just echo the sentiment of many of your readers and just offer my support and encouragement for the difficult work you do. You have a good heart and you are genuinely helping people. Sending support and prayers and thanks for caring about youth, even though it may involve enduring some difficult moments. Thank you for your courage, strength, and compassion, and may you grow even more in wisdom from these experiences.
Anne
Anne | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 3:55 pm | #

If you plan to pass such harsh judgements on us, I hope you yourself would be willing to live in a glass house.

Um.....Dawn has a personal blog, with her name and face on it.

It doesn't get any "glassier" than that!
L. | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 4:02 pm | #

cynical:
I realise that many of the comments from HCC sounded incoherrent and rude, but can you blame us?

First of all, it's "incoherent". I couldn't have set that up better myself if I tried.

And the comments didn't "sound" rude; they were rude. And yes, the blame lies on the students who responded in such a manner.

We're proud of our school,

Why? It couldn't possibly be for the grammar, spelling and writing education.

and of our own individual values that we strive to protect. 


Question: What would those individual values include?

I am sorry on behalf of my school that you felt we were attacking you on a personal level.

Speaking for myself here, as I am not Dawn, but she didn't have to feel attacked; she was attacked, verbally, by students of your school.
Sparks | 04.30.08 - 4:06 pm | #

I can't think of anyone who lives in a glasser house than Dawn Eden. That she has chosen to reveal herself warts and all is a major part of the power of her ministry.

I do recall that Jesus offered his disciples of shaking the dust off their sandals from any town that refused to hear the message. Perhaps the insolent are choking on their own dust.

Hang in there, munchkin. And I hope you're not trying to act forty yet.
Robert N G | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 4:10 pm | #

"We're proud of our school, and of our own individual values that we strive to protect."

Would those be, I don't know, CATHOLIC values, at your Catholic school? I can see the cognitive dissonance having a Catholic speaker coming to your Catholic school to challenge your Catholic values.
Andy | 04.30.08 - 4:17 pm | #

For example (a mainstream current slang term invented by Canadians that Americans use)?

Pansy, I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you saying "for example" is a mainstream current slang term invented by Canadians?

No, I meant give me a term as an example. It doesn't matter, my point is this was just nitpicking on the part of the student as to the many things wrong with Dawn's talk, valid or not. I didn't mean for this to turn into " who has a better beat on what cool is? Rock journalists from the heart of NYC or people from Ontario?" discussion.
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 4:30 pm | #

I don't think anyone in the forum (yours truly included!) has an idea what 'cool' is. :)
Neil C | 04.30.08 - 4:46 pm | #

We just don't enjoy sitting through an hour long presentation,

That's what you are so angry about? That you had to sit through an hour long presentation that you felt you did not need and found boring? Wow.
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 4:53 pm | #

"...you came into OUR school and basically insulted us."

Can you give an example of when Dawn insulted you? Like, a quote?

Or did you just feel insulted because she was there, and you really, really didn't want to hear what she had to say?
Tim J. | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 5:08 pm | #

That you had to sit through an hour long presentation that you felt you did not need and found boring? Wow.

Pansy,

That "wow" floating at the end of your sentence?

That, like, totally ruins your point:)

(I have a beastly teenager myself. Aping his speech never helps a debate!)
Jody Tresidder | 04.30.08 - 5:27 pm | #

So-oohh, the natives have gotten restless. And to think Canadians were such polite and reserved little darlings!

Here's a thought for future high-school talks on chastity: forget the autobiographical stuff and scare the sweet bejesus of the little blighters.

Take a leaf from my old grade-school Irish priest and let 'em have it. Tell them that sex was originally pure and holy before the Fall, but afterwards it is a major cause for damnation.

Let them know what Hell is -- that the majority of sinners get there through unchastity, and that there are children in Hell. Ask them to imagine torture and starvation found in the worst POW camps and say that they will experience these sufferings "not for an hour, not for a year, but for an eternity!"

That should get them going.

As always,

Best
tmr-brat | 04.30.08 - 5:32 pm | #

I am a student from HCC, and I do apologize for the harsh unnecessary comments, but you and everyone else has to understand that we are just sticking up for ourselves and our school. You know nothing about our school, only an illusion of what you thought we represented. But past our short kilts and apparently the epidermis buffet we have big hearts and we are a wonderful school. There is no need for the trash talk our school is under going from you, other comments and everyone who reads your blog.

The threats given to you obviously in one way or another hurt you. I understand but, put yourself into our schools shoes. You received threats, but we received harsh comments and a bad name for our school.

We gave you the attention and respect you deserved during your presentation. Somethings were hard to follow and you seemed to spend a lot of your time "beating around the bush" using useless examples( peter parker) and outdated slang like V-card. We did not once laugh at you, or personally attack you if that is what you thought. Your presentation could have been a lot better if it was organized and presented well. I also understand how hard it is to get in-front of a crowd of "bratty teenagers" as now what we are made to be.

A comment I found offence was the one about missing the pig's head on the pole, on the way in. If this was directed to us in a way that us as a school community are savages your wrong.

Last year we had an amazing guest speaker, who talked about AIDS, and making good decisions. He impacted our school, and some students even left in tears, we are not cold hearted. Your presentation just didn't stick, and I noticed that even the teachers had dropped jaws from some of your comments.

I'm not here to tell you to quit doing what you do, because you are a good speaker just no effective, but you could be. I'm here to represent my school in what we truly are.

You know none of our schools accomplishments, our students, teachers and all together our school in general. So you have no right saying what you did. This week alone we raised thousands of dollars for the children's hospital not only that, but had bully awareness day wearing pink, and giving money. Our school participated in the Walk against male violence and coming up in June the student council organized "Walk it out" a 12 hour marathon to raise money for cancer research. Around Christmas time we take part in the be an angel campaign and raise thousands for it to, giving families a wonderful Christmas.

So don't judge our school unless you really no what we are about.

Sincerely,

N.V
A Concerned HCC Student. | 04.30.08 - 5:40 pm | #

"I realise that many of the comments from HCC sounded incoherrent and rude, but can you blame us?"

Yes, of course you're to blame for your own behaviour. This attempt to excuse your behaviour by arguing that it couldn't be any other way is just weird. You're not dogs who can't help but bark and snarl, for goodness' sake.

"[...]and of our own individual values that we strive to protect."

Eww. My own individual values just threw up in my mouth.
George G. | 04.30.08 - 5:59 pm | #

"The threats given to you obviously in one way or another hurt you. I understand but, put yourself into our schools shoes. You received threats, but we received harsh comments and a bad name for our school."

Actually, the fact that you think that harsh comments and a bad name for your school warrants threats shows just a skewed sense of perspective.

[I didn't get your "dorks" comment, Andy, as I never said such a thing, so I cut it out - Dawn]

Edited By Siteowner
Andy | 04.30.08 - 6:08 pm | #

a mainstream current slang term invented by Canadians that Americans use

Pansy, I doubt such a thing exists. I mean, the last time I was at Dulles, the clerk at Duty Free had no idea where Toronto is.

What makes Canadians livid is when someone implies that any aspect of our culture is wholly derived from Americans. Just as I get incensed when Canadians makes blanket judgments about the American public because they don't like the current political administration (which tends to be the reason).

I won't highjack the combox anymore, and a 2-minute Google search should answer the question of where Canadian slang actually comes from. The most colourful comes from Newfoundland (traditionally a very Catholic province), but they often use Jesus' name in ways you might not like (just a warning).

To bring this closer to topic, there must be V-cards and Chastity Balls here too, but I've never heard people talk about them. Maybe the laughter stemmed in part from discomfort over something the teens aren't familiar with?

I think a chastity pledge is a great idea if it's a decision come to personally, without parental or peer pressure. I believe they may have negative connotations for some people since it's not always going to be the case that teens will sign them without coercion. And it's definitely a different political climate here.
Terezia | 04.30.08 - 6:11 pm | #

That you had to sit through an hour long presentation that you felt you did not need and found boring? Wow.

Pansy,

That "wow" floating at the end of your sentence?

That, like, totally ruins your point:)

(I have a beastly teenager myself. Aping his speech never helps a debate!)

I wasn't aping anyone's speech (I didn't know "wow" was limited to teenagers). I was genuinely in shock.
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 6:35 pm | #

Everyone and anyone has the right to disagree with my comments. It doesn't offend or irk me.

I guess the real problem here, is that a presentation about chastity and the love coming from God - that is unconditional no matter what mistakes a person may make sexually - has been skewed into an ongoing argument between a broup of teenagers from HCC who are outraged, and a group of adults who don't seem to realise that they aren't in highschool anymore.

You are all battling on the same level as us - why not let it go? a good number of us have tried to state our critism on Dawn's presentation in an articulate way. And for those students who chose to lash out in anger, well, you all have been repeatedly telling us that you're wiser and more mature then us.

Please, why not just act like it? The presentation is over, and I guess we just didn't feel it was effective or correct. To each his own.
cynical@HCC | 04.30.08 - 6:44 pm | #

group**
cynical@HCC | 04.30.08 - 6:45 pm | #

It seems like the students are feeling insulted because someone spoke to them about chastity. In their minds, this translated into " you assume we are not chaste".

A truly Catholic education would have provided opportunity for development of reason and logic - notably missing from the comments by the students. It makes them sound (caution - not PC) STUPID.
I'm sure they have some intelligence, so why hasn't the school been able to tap into it? Where are the parents?
lwestin | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 6:50 pm | #

Hello,

I am the person who wrote the comment that said “... you went on to talk about your family problems like they were the cause of you becoming a slut...” (A portion of the comment is on Dawn’s blog) I understand that the comment was disrespectful and immature, but I did apologize for it. The more I think about that comment now, the more I realize that it was only based on anger and that I should not have posted it the way that I did.

In which case, Miss Eden, I would, once again, like to apologize to you about what I said. I truly regret it. What I said was unfair to you and to everyone I represented. I would also like to say that I was shocked when reading the comments of some of my fellow classmates. Some were even more out of line than I was and I would like to ensure you that this is not typically what our school is like. We have incredible school spirit, which I think is the reason we took it so hard when you said we were a tough audience. You may have bruised our ego a bit.

I think that now is a good time, however, to look at the bright side of things. Sure we showed you most of our bad side but school spirit and unity is an incredible thing and look at what the power of our voices has done. We’ve made our opinions known to many people…although not productively. If we steer that power to do good in the world, imagine what we can do. I would just like to say, GO CENTURIONS!!!

Miss Eden, I do, however, have a couple requests. My first request is regarding a specific comment on your blog which I find very offensive to both the male and female population.

“It amazed me that the boys in the audience could pay any attention to me at all with the epidermis buffet going on all around them.”

First of all, I do not like how you compared women’s bodies to food. I do not believe that we are just something to be consumed. Secondly, not all men are as awful as you make them sound in this statement. Is comparing them to cannibals really necessary? My request is that you remove or change this statement to make it a little more respectful.

My other request regards my comment on your blog. I was just wondering if it was possible for you to remove it. I am quite ashamed of it. I suppose that you could leave it there to make an example of my mistakes, but is it possible to even make a note saying that I realized my faults and apologized for them?

There is only one part of my bad comment which I still believe to be true. I still do not believe that there is a problem with wearing clothing that reveals legs. I do not believe that the issue resides in young women and their “need to impress men.” After all, legs are not genitalia and men have them too. If a girl has a skirt so short that you can see her underwear, then I can see how it would be a problem, but that is not the case. Uniform kilts have shorts in them, making it impossible for any kind of undergarments (or lack of them *gag*) to be seen. I think that the biased opinion which implies that all women who do wear shorter skirts are only interested in sex, is based on the perverseness of our society. How come it seems so uncommon for speakers to target young men, encouraging them not to think of women as meat, and yet, so common for speakers to encourage young women to show as little skin as possible? In short, legs are not perverted.

Finally, I would like to say something to some of the other people who have commented here. First of all, Bud, who commented, “I think you mentioned that a good portion of students there are non-Catholic.” I don’t know where you got that information from but you were misinformed. Most students in our school are Catholic, or at least Christian. I know that you would probably all like it better if we were not Catholic. That way you would not have to associate yourselves with us, but everyone makes mistakes and Catholics are called to forgive one another for our mistakes.

Also there seemed to be a discussion about whether or not the students at our school were angry with Miss Eden because of our prejudice against Americans. This is not true at all. I don’t know anyone in our school or outside of it that is so ignorant that they would allow such an insignificant trait, such as the country someone lives in, to contribute to anger over another matter or to anger at all. We treat people from all countries the way we treat other Canadians. I know you may have a hard time taking that statement seriously from our actions so far, but I assure you that not even we would sink to that level. We have learned from our history classes about the Holocaust and although we can’t relate to the mindset of the Nazi soldiers, we know that prejudice is one of the exact elements that led to such a tragedy.

I recommend that, in the future, you do not speak about what you don’t know.

Sydney Carton, I am sorry, but I think you were very out of line with the comment, “Yeah, they need prayer. They also need a good kick in the a**.” I think it was very immature. You are speaking to us about our immaturity by way of violent comments? Does that really make you any better than us? Are you really any different from Jay who made similar comments to Miss Eden? I am sorry, but I don’t think that was acceptable.

Well, that is all I have to say. Once again, I apologize for my actions, Miss Eden. I’m sorry that I could not relate to your chastity presentation, but you did teach me the lesson of proper communication, including respect and I thank you for that.

Sincerely,
Another hcc student
Another hcc student | 04.30.08 - 6:53 pm | #

Anotherhccstudent, I appreciate your apology and will shortly remove the comment you mention from the comments section and from my blog entry. Thank you.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 7:22 pm | #

I have been reading this blog for quite some time, and I applaud Ms. Eden's courage in writing her book and speaking to various groups. Some of the students' comments were insulting.

I am curious to know if Ms. Eden generally receives a more hostile response from adults than she got from some high school students. Adults may choose to attend Ms. Eden's presentation, and they are free to leave if they do not like her message. Were the high school students required to attend your talk? Some of the hostility may have been caused by being forced to attend. Plus, I imagine there might be some repercussions for students if they left during your talk.

Some students overreacted to Ms. Eden's fairly mind comments. It is very difficult to work with teenagers, and Ms. Eden deserves much thanks.
Bill | 04.30.08 - 7:23 pm | #

Bill, I never receive such a response from adult audiences, ever. Occasionally one person in the audience will argue with me or will write me afterwards with a criticism, but nothing like this. The captive-audience factor is indeed key to understanding the response from students at this particular school.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 7:27 pm | #

Bill, I never receive such a response from adult audiences, ever. Occasionally one person in the audience will argue with me or will write me afterwards with a criticism, but nothing like this. The captive-audience factor is indeed key to understanding the response from students at this particular school.

That may be true, but I think one sign of maturity is the ability to take from advice what you need for your situation and leaving the rest. Many adults I know with maturity issues do not understand that 1. disagreeing with them is not a personal attack and 2. do not quite have the self-esteem to comprehend that everything that is said to them doesn't have to be all or nothing. They are still not in a stage of life where they have been making their own responsible decisions for some time, and are used to people making them for them. This is fine for this age. However, if the children are used to constantly getting their own way, or are allowed to simply make decisions based on "I want" as opposed to responsibility, this is how children respond.
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 7:42 pm | #

@ Another hcc student

"First of all, I do not like how you compared women’s bodies to food. I do not believe that we are just something to be consumed. Secondly, not all men are as awful as you make them sound in this statement. Is comparing them to cannibals really necessary? My request is that you remove or change this statement to make it a little more respectful."

I think you're taking Dawn's "epidermis buffet" remark a bit too literally. It was just a colourful way of saying that the young men of the school may have found all the exposed skin visually distracting.

I rather like the term. It's definitely going in my lexicon.
George G. | 04.30.08 - 7:57 pm | #

another hcc student,

I would like to address this comment to you specifically. Your most recent comment was coherently and logically presented with excellent grammar skills. Before yesterday, I would have taken that for granted, but apparently that is much rarer than I thought in a high school senior. I also need to preface this with the assurance that I have no intention of criticizing you in any way, but I am going to treat you like an adult by having a conversation back and forth in which two people may not completely agree but treat each other with respect. The only reason I'm attempting it is because you have exhibited a fair degree of maturity. Before that last comment, I would never have bothered.

I would also like to say that I was shocked when reading the comments of some of my fellow classmates.

As were we all. Perhaps you are used to dealing with that sort of thing, but I can assure you that most of us were apalled.

We have incredible school spirit, which I think is the reason we took it so hard when you said we were a tough audience. You may have bruised our ego a bit.

I am going to be blunt. Saying someone is a tough audience is not an insult. It is simply a descriptive that was apparently completely accurate based on the response from the students. You yourselves admit you were a tough crowd while at the same time expressing your outrage at being called a tough crowd. Why were you insulted?

I read the initial post and had not one bad thought about Holy Cross. I just thought, "hmm, a tough crowd." That's it. Now I have a very, very negative view of Holy Cross, and the comments left on this blog from you schoolmates are the sole reason. Just that, nothing else.

I think that now is a good time, however, to look at the bright side of things. Sure we showed you most of our bad side but school spirit and unity is an incredible thing and look at what the power of our voices has done. We’ve made our opinions known to many people…although not productively.

Why do you think school spirit and unity are intrinsically good? Why do you think having your voices heard was a good thing? It has done absolutely nothing but put a black eye on your Centurions. You value school spirit and unity as an intrinsic good, it is plain. But perhaps that is a value you should reassess.

If we steer that power to do good in the world, imagine what we can do. I would just like to say, GO CENTURIONS!!!

Most things in this world can be used for good and evil. To downplay when it is used evily simply by rationalizing that it could theoretically also be used for good is poor moral judgment.

There is only one part of my bad comment which I still believe to be true. I still do not believe that there is a problem with wearing clothing that reveals legs. I do not believe that the issue resides in young women and their “need to impress men.” After all, legs are not genitalia and men have them too.

You are not a man, and so it is hard for you to understand that men look at women differently from the way women look at men. They are sexually aroused by visual stimulation to a much, much, much greater degree than women. Genitalia is not required. Just looking at that which makes a women beautiful and desirable can get their engines revving. That includes most body parts. Upper legs are a major turn-on for men. Use that information as you will. I'm not judging you or men; that's just some freebie information I'm giving out.

I think that the biased opinion which implies that all women who do wear shorter skirts are only interested in sex, is based on the perverseness of our society. How come it seems so uncommon for speakers to target young men, encouraging them not to think of women as meat, and yet, so common for speakers to encourage young women to show as little skin as possible? In short, legs are not perverted.

Ironically, I don't think most of us think that girls who wear short skirts are only thinking of sex. I think it is precisely because they don't understand the effect it has on the men around them that they feel it is no big deal. Women who wear short skirts are trying to attract attention - whether it is from other girls to show how fashionable and pretty they are or it is from boys so that they can feel beautiful and desirable.

I agree that men should be given the same message that people are to be treated with dignity and not as "meat" of little consequence. Of course, someone did show up to give you that message and she was verbally attacked by your schoolmates. Please think about that.

Most students in our school are Catholic, or at least Christian. I know that you would probably all like it better if we were not Catholic. That way you would not have to associate yourselves with us, but everyone makes mistakes and Catholics are called to forgive one another for our mistakes.

Also, people who make those mistakes are called to repentence. Your very sincere apology for your own remarks were well done. I truly feel you are sorry and I have no doubt that Dawn has forgiven you. It would be best, however, if you stopped trying to rationalize the behavior of your classmates. They gave an incredibly un-Christian display, and should be duly embarassed.

I apologize for my actions, Miss Eden. I’m sorry that I could not relate to your chastity presentation, but you did teach me the lesson of proper communication, including respect and I thank you for that.

I greatly respect this apology. Again, well done.
Amy K. | 04.30.08 - 8:37 pm | #

Bully awareness day.

Wow.
Robert N G | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 8:47 pm | #

I'm away for a while (okay, a long while) and come back to see one of my favorite people getting raked over the coals by fellow Catholics for the heinous act of upholding Catholic teachings. Reading some of the comments I would say, "Methinks they doth protest too much".
That aside, I'll be back more often, and rather than hijack this thread I'll save the explanation for my absence when you make a post about drunk drivers who run stop signs.
J Rob | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 8:55 pm | #

With all the blaming back and forth, I think we're missing some important lessons. We all have a choice--we can insist that we are right and continue to engage in these vituperations that make us feel so self-righteous or we can grow from the experience and do better next time.

It's true that some student commenters were crude and disrespectful, and evidenced very poor language skills. On the other hand, many of the adults have been disrespectful to the students, even mocking bordering on bullying.

But clearly Dawn shares some of the responsiblity. She was a guest in their school, akin to their home. Her issues with their behavior or responses to her talk should have been presented as issues. She did not need to personalize it , by naming their school, or identifying individuals, or posting photos that presented them in a bad light. If she were an invited guest in my home and later blogged negatively about what she experienced I would have found it inexcusably rude and I, too, would have become angry and defensive.

Some adults may forget how attached many of us were to our own high schools (or how high we rolled up our own uniforms for that matter). A put-down of our school was taken as personally as a put-down of ourselves. Our allegience to our school, our friends, our teachers was, next to our families, our strongest, proudest connection.

Next time, Dawn, it might be wiser and kinder to raise the issues without singling out a school by name or in pictures.
TDD | 04.30.08 - 8:59 pm | #

Some adults may forget how attached many of us were to our own high schools (or how high we rolled up our own uniforms for that matter). A put-down of our school was taken as personally as a put-down of ourselves. Our allegience to our school, our friends, our teachers was, next to our families, our strongest, proudest connection.

Bad behavior is bad behavior. Dawn didn't do anything different from what she has been doing for over a year, posting her impressions of her different talks to many different organizations and schools. This is the only time she has gotten such a response. There is where the food for thought is.
Amy K. | 04.30.08 - 9:08 pm | #

"...you came into OUR school and basically insulted us."

Can you give an example of when Dawn insulted you? Like, a quote?

Or did you just feel insulted because she was there, and you really, really didn't want to hear what she had to say?"

And to that comment first u have no idea what you talking about because You don't even know my school or what she said to us and And secondly i don't think ANYONE wanted to hear it anywhere like do teens actually wanna here about how many men she slept well and how good it felt?
no cool
HccStudent | 04.30.08 - 9:14 pm | #

Can you give an example of when Dawn insulted you? Like, a quote?

Or did you just feel insulted because she was there, and you really, really didn't want to hear what she had to say?"

And to that comment first u have no idea what you talking about because You don't even know my school or what she said to us and And secondly i don't think ANYONE wanted to hear it anywhere like do teens actually wanna here about how many men she slept well and how good it felt?

So... that's a no?
Amy K. | 04.30.08 - 9:16 pm | #

OMG,
So this is Catholic education in Canada? Unbelievable! Are you sure it wasn't some kind of juvenile detention center?
Dawn I'm so sorry that you had to endure such hateful comments.
If you didn't expose the comments; who would understand the extent of vitriol and ignorance those students spewed?
LM | 04.30.08 - 9:18 pm | #

This will be my last comment, I promise!

I will not pretend to speak for anyone else, but one of the reasons I, personally, did not like Dawn's talk and/or blog post was because I felt that she tied self esteem to sex, sexuality, and appearance.

I was unmoved because I think that how you feel about yourself should be completely to how you look, if you are desired, and how short your skirt is. I realize it is unrealistic in today's society, as appearance is everything to most people, but intelligence is much more important.

Also, people should wear short skirts because they like the skirt, not that guys think they look good in it. People should do and say what makes them happy, not what society says they should want and be.

So, if sex makes you happy? Have it.

I am lucky, at sixteen years old, to know who I am, what I want to be, and to have a concrete set of morals and values. They may not be ones my parents (who are conservative catholics), or you, internet commenters, like or agree with, but the beauty of it is, it's my choice.

But if I am going to ask that people respect my views and me as a person, I must respect others. My previous comments were lacking in respect, which I regret. My opinions and values should not cloud my judgement in regards to other people. As I and others accused you of judging us without knowing us, I did the same to you.

The last thing I want to address is my comments about the book 1984. I was thinking about how the party are trying to scientifically eliminate the orgasm as to make people unhappy, because happy people are harder to control. It was recalled to my mind during the presentation and once again as I wrote.

Thanks for listening... reading?
hccstudent
hccstudent | 04.30.08 - 9:22 pm | #

The only reason i did not like her was because she came to a catholic school and talked about how much she enjoyed sex. We did not need to know how good it felt for her to sleep with all these men.
HccStudent | 04.30.08 - 9:25 pm | #

Bully awareness day.

Wow.

Care to elaborate, Robert NG? I can't see what you're trying to say.
Terezia | 04.30.08 - 9:41 pm | #

First, didn't like how u publi8shed photos of that. Just creepy
And secondly, all you are doing in ALL your blogs is turning everyone against our school typing in what people said.
Not everyone in our school is disrespectful and you can not blame 700 students for the comments of 20.
HccStudent | 04.30.08 - 9:48 pm | #

Bully awareness day.

Wow.

Care to elaborate, Robert NG? I can't see what you're trying to say.
Terezia | 04.30.08 - 9:41 pm | #

Robert obviously approves of bullying. :)
Neil C. | 04.30.08 - 10:11 pm | #

At times like this, I can only recall the lapidary words of GHOSTBUSTERS...

Dawn doesn't have to take this abuse from you. She has hundreds of people waiting to abuse her.
Will | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 10:22 pm | #

Thanks, Will ... I think.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 10:26 pm | #

NV above wrote This week alone we raised thousands of dollars for the children's hospital not only that, but had bully awareness day wearing pink, and giving money.

By saying "WOW" I was merely pointing out how impressed I am that the school is able to stop bullying by wearing pink.

I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

I do not now and never have favored bullying or any other type of rude behavior.

[Note to Dawn: Next time wear pink.]
Robert N G | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 10:40 pm | #

hccstudent - Do you read Brave New World in your literature classes? Divorcing sex from procreation is as unnatural as divorcing pleasure from sex.

And secondly, all you are doing in ALL your blogs is turning everyone against our school typing in what people said.

I don't really think Dawn is turning people against any of you. Your peers who have commented with personal insults and threats are doing a great job of that all on their own.
Tina | 04.30.08 - 10:47 pm | #

[Note to Dawn: Next time wear pink.]

Good advice, Robert. Perhaps I should also wear a T-shirt for the "Walk Against Male Violence" (a Catholic perspective on which is here).
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 10:51 pm | #

And also its GREAT how 40 year olds are commenting and attacking high school students really looks good on your part =]
HccStudent | 04.30.08 - 10:57 pm | #

I would like to echo those expressed sentiments that after having read Dawn's original post I did not entertain any negative opinions or feelings about Holy Cross or its students. Once some of the comments made by the students came to light, however, that is when I began to have some negative thoughts about the school. It is as if in their zeal to defend against a perceived attack on their school's honor, some students managed only to dishonor that which they wished to protect.

I am thinking a pebble (Dawn's presentation and post) was dropped into the small pond which is the school, and the resulting ripples disturbed the relative tranquility of the pond's inhabitants. Instead of simply weathering the brief disturbance though, a certain few felt the need to curse the ripples and condemn the pebble. Now to the larger world this appears irrational and mean-spirited, for the pebble did no real harm and ripples would cease soon enough, but to those who know nothing but life in the pond prior to the disturbance such things seem reasonable and defensible.

Soon enough these students will find themselves swimming in a lake or ocean and the spirit and unity of their old pond will no longer matter. What will matter is whether or not they are prepared to embrace and defend the virtuous life, especially when the waters become far rougher. Hopefully this is when the message Dawn planted blossoms. So keep planting those seeds Dawn; and to the students who have ears, hear.
Mr Sammo | Homepage | 04.30.08 - 11:08 pm | #

It's funny that the negative reactions seem to have split down the middle. One group of students were annoyed that Dawn was dissing sex, but another - maybe even the larger part of the commenters - seemed angry at her for talking about the pleasures of sex. They're all mingled here in the combox, but there are two distinct criticisms going on here.

I think we're used to expecting that some young people will feel condemned, and that this discussion has focused on that. But I'm finding the other aspect fascinating: the commenters who make clear that they do value chastity, but are nevertheless angry at Dawn.

One thing I think that explains some of the students' reaction is that sex is an intimate thing. It's very, very uncomfortable to be herded into a gym and listen to talk about the most intimate parts of your life while the guy you crush on in Math class, and the girls you share your secrets with in the washroom, are crushed up beside you. I've never found Chastity presentations comfortable myself, and I'm 25. I *hate* hearing too much private information about people's lives. I think I would like hearing Dawn speak, because she takes a different approach, but the subject itself is difficult.

That's my best excuse for their revulsion, but I suspect there's also some good old teenage self-righteousness going along. It comes in all flavours. There are the kids who think their school community is so wonderful it's immune to any criticism. And then there's the sort who believe that there's absolutely no way they'll ever fall into sin or make the bad decisions their parents/teachers/chastity speakers made. :-) Some of the comments had a "We're not stupid like you were" tinge to them, din't they?
Eileen R | 05.01.08 - 12:46 am | #

Is it possible, Dawn, that your specific message and its personal aspects are better directed towards a slightly more mature audience, those who can more closely relate to the Dawn Eden story?

No, teens need to hear this specific message, as well as the personal aspects (with an age appropriate presentation). I've twice now taught chastity and human sexuality classes to 8th graders in CCD, and in a better world, that would be too early, but in the modern world that we are presented with, too many kids of that age are already sexually active -- or they want to be, or are at least very curious about it.

They especially need to hear the moral aspects of it since it is very likely that all they get from school or parents are the practical reasons for delaying sexual activity.

As for the, shall we say, impolite comments from students -- where are the nuns with the rulers when you need them??
Bender | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 2:44 am | #

OK, reading through a few more of these students' comments --

These are high school students, right? They're not delicate little third graders who whimper and tear up at the slightest little thing?

Instead of throwing their little tantrums, if they think that they have been so mortally wounded, perhaps they need to just OFFER IT UP. Again, where is Sister to put the smack down on them when you need her?
Bender | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 2:56 am | #

I read the initial post and had not one bad thought about Holy Cross. I just thought, "hmm, a tough crowd." That's it. Now I have a very, very negative view of Holy Cross, and the comments left on this blog from you schoolmates are the sole reason. Just that, nothing else.

I would like to echo those expressed sentiments that after having read Dawn's original post I did not entertain any negative opinions or feelings about Holy Cross or its students. Once some of the comments made by the students came to light, however, that is when I began to have some negative thoughts about the school. It is as if in their zeal to defend against a perceived attack on their school's honor, some students managed only to dishonor that which they wished to protect.

Ditto.
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 4:01 am | #

And also its GREAT how 40 year olds are commenting and attacking high school students really looks good on your part =]

I wonder of their parents and teachers are aware that they come on this blog and speak to adults as they have. The world has changed since I was young. I was taught to be respectful to others (especially adults), even if I did not agree with the message.

I also do not believe all this whining and kvetshn is because Dawn mentioned sex is pleasurable and short skirts are distracting to men. They didn't like being told how to act. Someone thought it was cute to come up in here without thinking and say (to sum it up) "Dawn your talk was dumb". When it was addressed some of them decided they had to find something tangible to argue to save face.

Been in many a debate with a teenager...
"Clean your room"

"Well, I would clean my room and make my bed if only you didn't hang my sister's winter clothes in my closet..and how can you expect me to clean my room when my brothers are annoying people? Let's not forget we are stuck here in Upstate NY! Why would you bring me here where it's boring? That's why I don't even care if my room is clean because I hate where we live!"
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 4:22 am | #

Bully Awareness Day, huh? I don't think the message took, since it seems that a group of students used foul language, personal insults and threats of violence (which if memory serves is a criminal offense) against an individual whose opinion they didn't agree with.

While I can't speak for Dawn, I will commend the students that have come back with apologies and coherent arguments but your previous comments were very rude. Since you have often mentioned how good your school is and how bright the student population, maybe you can learn a lesson from this episode and think twice before acting out of anger the next time someone 'insults' you. Words spoken in anger can often never be taken back and one needs only look at the conflicts in the world today to see how harmful this mentality is.
LOR | 05.01.08 - 6:55 am | #

Ill-mannered teenagers will behave like ill-mannered teenagers. And their speech won't be pretty. Still, how awful. I don't know how I would have handled this kind of vitriol. Cheers for Dawn Eden! Wii luv u! :-D
antiaphrodite | 05.01.08 - 7:19 am | #

"I am lucky, at sixteen years old, to know who I am, what I want to be, and to have a concrete set of morals and values."

Lucky indeed, to have accomplished a life's work at so tender an age.
hammerdan | 05.01.08 - 7:56 am | #

While I agree Dawn got a rough ride - and some of the original comments made me flinch with great distaste too - Eileen R's comment above was terrific.

Especially: ...That's my best excuse for their revulsion, but I suspect there's also some good old teenage self-righteousness going along. It comes in all flavours.

I honestly tend to think that if you are young and don't suspect you can make a better job of the world than your elders have, there is something amiss.

There's been an it-was-ever-thus clash here between the self-righteousness of the inexperienced and the perceived self-righteousness of the experienced (Dawn).

Bender's "nuns with rulers" suggestion made me laugh. It's so right - and so wrong at the same time:)
Jody Tresidder | 05.01.08 - 8:17 am | #

I honestly tend to think that if you are young and don't suspect you can make a better job of the world than your elders have, there is something amiss.

There's been an it-was-ever-thus clash here between the self-righteousness of the inexperienced and the perceived self-righteousness of the experienced (Dawn).

Although it was more than a couple years back, I more or less remember my self-righteousness of inexperience. In fact, there are several conversations I had with older, wiser people that I remember very clearly and with acute embarrassment.

Be that as it may, I don't ever remember spewing such disrespect. Even though I thought I knew better, I still had an amount of humility that (for the most part) seems to be lacking here. I wonder if this is simply a case of the anonymity afforded people by the internet. Or maybe my mama just raised me right. Could go either way.
Amy K. | 05.01.08 - 8:35 am | #

The Pentecost novena starts Friday. It's a perfect time to pray to the Holy Spirit for gifts of grace for all involved in the work of delivering the message of truth, as well as (and especially) those who are engaged in the work of hearing the truth.
rebecca | 05.01.08 - 8:51 am | #

And also its GREAT how 40 year olds are commenting and attacking high school students really looks good on your part =]

I think this is an important engagement here.

The early comments from HCC students were, yes, incoherent. But even the more recent, coherent statements are defensive. And, honestly, Dawn's friends circling the wagons is not a little defensive as well. I certainly felt it.

Something interesting, though. The smarter of the HCC commenters are probably used to besting their peers in rational argument and debate. They're not used to being "ganged up on" by thoughtful, rational adults.

Of the grown ups here, do you remember the first time you tried to take on someone who had many years of adult experience behind them? There's kind of a rite of passage taking place, at least for some of the HCC students who have commented here. They are playing up a division, as it were, perhaps for the first time.

HCCstudent, if you're still following the comments, good on you for trying to take your game up a notch.

I still think you're missing a lot of key points about sex and the body and the human person, and I've had a lot more time to think about this than you have. But you're playing up, and you're making some coherent points.

Keep at it. Don't think you're done yet. Yes, at 16, to have some idea of something about yourself is a great achievement. But you're not done. You won't be done until God has brought to completion the good work he has begun in you.

And if you really want to make a strong argument that completely destroys anything we might have to say about sex, start by reading Dawn's book and find ways to pull her position apart. Of course, you'll want to do it with charity, without personal attacks. But read her book, figure out where her "argument" in favor of chastity falls apart, and then come back and tells us.
Dcn. Dennis | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 9:02 am | #

Eileen's comment above is quite pertinent. I remember most of the mandatory speakers/events that I had to attend in HS. For the most part, no one really cared about the speaker or the message. It was normally an opportunity to joke, giggle, and laugh; and to posture in front of our friends. God forbid we actually engage the speaker on the topic at hand, that'd be a first-class ticket to ridicule.
Chris Molter | 05.01.08 - 9:05 am | #

Pansy Moss:

Surely you must inform your children that as they already live in the cultural center of the known universe, they can only face heartache and disappointment when they go somewhere else. Rejoice! Again I say REJOICE!
Robert N G | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 9:16 am | #

I have been rather disturbed by the anger and patronization being thrown in the direction of a particular school in Canada in these posts and comments. As a chastity educator to grade school and high school students, I am well aware that one cannot expect to receive respect from the audience, if one does not respect his audience. We have an incredible example of this respect and love in Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, who repeatedly expect great things from young people, regardless of what stereotypes society presents us with.

One of the blessings of presenting to teenagers over the past year has been raising my respect for them. Sure, not everyone agrees with the message of chastity, but resistance or ridicule only call me to love them more. I have a deep respect for the thousands of young people I have presented to, simply based on the fact that all of them were created in the image and likeness of God and are called to live with Him eternally. They have this inherent dignity regardless of how they treat me.

I think what is fundamentally lacking in all of this bantering is love. No matter how someone treats us, we are called to love them. This isn’t easy, but it is our primary vocation as Christians. Once again, we have a beautiful witness to this unconditional love in Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI.

I love the story of Pope John Paul II, who constantly respected and loved young people, regardless of their response to him. On his death bed, when hearing that thousands of young people were praying outside of his window, he said, “I have searched for you, and now you have come to me, and I thank you." Perhaps this was one of the first times the late Holy Father realized that young people were actually responding to him, yet this doubt was never reflected in his words or actions.

Finally, Pope Benedict XVI said, “… it is not true that young people think only of consumerism and pleasure. It is not true that they are materialistic and self-centered. Just the opposite is true: young people want great things. They want an end to injustice. They want inequalities to be overcome and all peoples to have their share in the earth’s goods. They want freedom for the oppressed. They want great things, good things.”

May we all take these words to heart as we strive to grow in holiness, together with all of God’s children, regardless of age.
Emily | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 9:21 am | #

That was beautiful Emily! Thank you for sharing that insight.
Anne | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 9:31 am | #

Although it was more than a couple years back, I more or less remember my self-righteousness of inexperience. In fact, there are several conversations I had with older, wiser people that I remember very clearly and with acute embarrassment.

Be that as it may, I don't ever remember spewing such disrespect.

That's what absolutely baffles me!!! I feel so grateful that in those moments of teenage-know-it allness, I had enough sense to nod and keep my sneering to myself. I am glad my thoughts were basically mine alone and I never caused a scene allowing people to know what was really in my head.
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 9:37 am | #

Emily, I agree with you that love is necessary in responding in children, and so have removed the comment stating the kids need a kick in the hind part. But I think Bender has a point in longing for the days when nuns ruled the world.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 9:51 am | #

"And also its GREAT how 40 year olds are commenting and attacking high school students really looks good on your part =]"

This is a telling comment. I think a great deal of the problem comes from the mistaken idea that if someone takes a position contrary to your own, they are "attacking" you, your lifestyle and your values.

So, when Dawn says "chastity is better than unchastity", some people take it as a full-on personal assault. It's not that unusual among even mature people, let alone youth. Just try to question, say, global warming or gay marriage on a college campus, and see how well you get on. Such speech is received not as reasoned argument, but as a dangerous assault on Right Thinking People. It's just the latest incarnation of McCarthyism.

---------

"I am well aware that one cannot expect to receive respect from the audience, if one does not respect his audience"

You assume a great deal.

"I think what is fundamentally lacking in all of this bantering is love."

And I think you may be fundamentally confused as to what love looks like.
Tim J. | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 10:03 am | #

That's what absolutely baffles me!!! I feel so grateful that in those moments of teenage-know-it allness, I had enough sense to nod and keep my sneering to myself. I am glad my thoughts were basically mine alone and I never caused a scene allowing people to know what was really in my head.

Same here. I would just roll my eyes. I would never have had the nerve to write or say such rude things. I would have gotten a belt to my backside if I had. This is why I think both Sydney and Bender had a point. Love isn't always huggy, kissy and indulgent.
Susan B. | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 10:32 am | #

Hey, I'm all for standing up for yourself, defending your honor (or your school's), and generally challenging authority. A little bit of teenage rebellion is a good thing.

But there is a proper and effective and classy (and cool) way of doing that, and then there is the way of the whiny cry-baby and the punk. And there is a time and place for everything, and time when one should suffer wrongs patiently.

I don't necessarily think that "these young whippersnappers need to learn their elders some respect!" but they should learn how to engage in (and win) an adversarial dialogue. To defend your honor by acting dishonorably is contradictory, to say the least. And if you must get down into the gutter and muck, do not be surprised if those bigger and more experienced than you pound your punk-a** into the ground. Perhaps, since they (and we) have all been through excruciatingly boring and painful forced group meetings and assemblies (not to say that Dawn's was, I'm sure that it was, as always, very good), they should have by now learned to put up with it graciously.

Again, suffer wrong patiently. And if you can't do that, offer it up. And if you can't do that, then choose your words carefully so that you prove yourself the better person, not the worst.
Bender | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 11:05 am | #

but they should learn how to engage in (and win) an adversarial dialogue.

Hear, hear! That's why my first comments were about the lack of a coherency. How in the world do you get to be a high school senior without being able to put your thoughts to paper in order to convey a message.

Now that we've got all that out of the way, I feel an urge to go down to the pub and lift a few pints and get down to the business of actually trading ideas back and forth. That's the enjoyable part.

The whippersnappers get sarsparilla.
Amy K. | 05.01.08 - 11:17 am | #

The whippersnappers get sarsparilla.

LOL!
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 11:46 am | #

You are the epitome of grace under fire, Dawn. Good on you!

And it's not like you need to be told this, but laugh those comments off, Dawn. Teenagers try on controversy and badly-fitting, poorly articulated ideology like they do badly-fitting, poorly conceptualized trendy clothes. It's like infants, developing their lungs through howling. Hopefully their engagement will transform into something more logical and coherent in the future!
Anonymous | 05.01.08 - 12:15 pm | #

I am a parent of two teenagers.
What I am reading in these comments from the students is a common theme among teens today (maybe not just today): their utter inability to say the words "I was wrong" or "I'm sorry" without following it up with "but..."
Didymus | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 12:35 pm | #

I am a parent of two teenagers.
What I am reading in these comments from the students is a common theme among teens today (maybe not just today): their utter inability to say the words "I was wrong" or "I'm sorry" without following it up with "but...">>>

That's true about many adults as well.
Neil C | 05.01.08 - 2:04 pm | #

I am a student here at hcc and while i don't support many of the extremely rude comments made to you, i have to say im proud of the students for sticking up for themselves.

This is really never going to be resolved. We all have different opinions, and there's nothing your speeches can do to really ever change that. People do what they think is right for them, and by you bashing them and posting pictures of the students to prove your point is low.

You are judging our school by some girls who choose to wear their kilts short, basically calling us sluts and making it seem like we're the worst school out there. which is laughable because there are SO many schools who are SO much worse, wow.

You came to our school not even FOR A DAY, and you already think you've 'summed' us up. That's unfair because the majority of us don't dress like that or have sex. And if those that do, are you justified to center them out the way you did? No, and you really should rethink it. Just because you've had past experiences dealing with this, doesn't make you a top expert.

Oh, and by the way to all those people commenting on hcc's grammar, get a life. You're only saying that because you find anything else wrong about what we're saying.
Holy Cross not Holy Chastity | 05.01.08 - 7:18 pm | #

as a last note, i forgot to mention. i think it was right for you Dawn to put up what some of those hcc students said. i disagree with a lot of them and feel you shouldn't have been disrepected like that. For them, i apolgize.
Holy Cross not Holy Chastity | 05.01.08 - 7:27 pm | #

Hi Dawn
I'm a Holy Cross student who didn't even go to the assembly, the reason being is because our school was cut in half and only the older students went, I guess maybe because some other schools were appalled at some of the things you said- I'm not quite sure. But One thing that got under my skin was the fact that you bring up my teachers and Principals and how they and I Quote "(2) The principal, while sitting with the students on the floor, made no effort to urge them to be more respectful, and neither did any other staff." - Dawn if you had a problem at the time, you would of just asked the students to be a little more respectful. Come On! you had the floor, but instead you say- I like that your chattering, It means it's awkward and it should be.(note: everyone I talked to didn't find it awkward at all, mostly just boring) right there that shows that you don't care if they listen to you. So don't go saying anything about Our Principal or Staff Members for not doing anything. And everyone commenting on "language" some of us used not being grammatically correct, I think you should stop, It's not doing any good just fueling the fire and getting them going for another tear! We do not have lack of english in our school and all -every single teacher and principal in our school does a great job and for that we give them a lot of respect! They have done their job- exceptionally well and I think going and writing on your little blog about it isn't the way to go about it. unless your trying to undercut and demean the faculty at Holy Cross Catholic Secondary which I kind of suspect your doing. I mean- just something to get back at the students right? because I don't think our staff told you you did a horrible job.
That about sums it up! Thanks
Holy Cross Student | 05.01.08 - 8:16 pm | #

How interesting that these students who state in the most vulgar terms that they "LOVE SEX" are also the ones to condemn Dawn Eden for her past. Self-righteousness and decadence are an ugly mix.

It's a good thing Lifesite news picked up on this incident.
Neil S. | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 8:57 pm | #

"Oh, and by the way to all those people commenting on hcc's grammar, get a life. You're only saying that because you find anything else wrong about what we're saying."

Really? You haven't seen any other comments criticizing what you were saying? Where have you been?
Andy | 05.01.08 - 9:38 pm | #

We do not have lack of english in our school and all

I can't resist. It's like the old retort to the question, "Are you trying to make me look foolish?"

"You don't need any help from me."
Scott W. | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 9:49 pm | #

Well said! Most of the students at our school are not as disrespectful as the few who made rude comments. Most of us simply were unclear with your message, and could not relate to what you were trying to say. Maybe instead of telling us how great sex is, you should tell us how much better it would be if we saved that gift for our future spouces. And not all of us are as immodest as you portray us. There are always the few popular students who dress immodestly. They are the ones who are disraspectful, and they just want attention.
Obvioulsy this problem is never going to be resolved. Can't we just make peace. we are all human, we all make mistakes. Lets just forgive eachother and move on.
HCC girl | 05.01.08 - 10:09 pm | #

There is every good reason why Dawn Eden should display these ugly and violent messages for us to see. These students can't make threatening statements to a public speaker, and then expect such incidents to remain hidden and secret.

Teachers might think this phenomenon is normal but for the rest of us it is news.

The principal and staff of that school should be blushing with embarassment.
TS | 05.01.08 - 10:55 pm | #

It sounds to me like the problem was not so much what Dawn said in her talk, but what she said about it afterwards. This surprises me; I would have thought that sex would touch more nerves than school spirit. These young Canadians, who have taken in the gospels of tolerance and deference like mother's milk, forgot all their sensitivity training when exposed to a little light criticism. Charming.

The vitriol, the incoherence, and the self-assurance, taken together, are really appalling. I had heard that our Catholic schools were in bad shape, but I didn't realize it was this bad.
cnb in Canada | Homepage | 05.01.08 - 10:55 pm | #

It was said: "we bleed black and gold. I, personally am an atheist and a hardcore liberal, but I could not imagine going to any other school but Holy Cross because of the students, teachers and rest of the community. I think it upset me because YOU came into OUR school, and judged us not on who we were, but how we compared to others and to YOUR values."

Where would this student have learned such crass tribalism?

It’s as if the students and staff at Holy Cross school can do no wrong, because, well, it’s THEIR school.

It’s funny how even some educators respond this way when confronted with criticism of the system. Sometimes you read about this in our diocesan-supported newspapers. It can’t be deficient, they say, because this is OUR system. It's as if the concept of a God who is Perfect and yet infinitely beyond creatures has been replaced by the infinitely-perfect "community" and tribe.

Welcome to the world of “Catholic” education in Ontario. Please leave reason and faith at the door.
TS | 05.01.08 - 11:11 pm | #

Just wanted to note that in my experience, what actually happened in an event that blows up like this can get completely lost in a wave of adolescent emotion, reaction, and discussion.

I feel as if the reasonable criticisms, if there were some, that could have been given to Dawn by students and staff at HCC have been completely lost because of the way some students chose to fly off at the mouth.

And, listen: school spirit is not a moral value. Loyalty is, and spirit can be one expression of loyalty. But it is nothing without love of the Truth, which is hard for all of us to take, I know.

I really, really love working with high school students. But this quality of chattering about something indignantly until the actual truth of the thing is all muddied up.... that may be my least favorite tendency of the age.
corita | 05.01.08 - 11:56 pm | #

Also, why did some of the commenters leap from disapproving of some of the students' comments to deriding all of Canada? What's up with that?
corita | 05.02.08 - 12:14 am | #

"Also, why did some of the commenters leap from disapproving of some of the students' comments to deriding all of Canada? What's up with that?"

-- or indeed leap from deriding some of the student comments to deriding the entire Catholic school system in Ontario?
All ten of my kids have gone/are going to the local elementary and secondary Ontario Catholic schools. I have never had any complaints about the faithfulness of their religious instruction or sex ed. The religion department in the high school is particularly good. Regarding kilts, hardly any girls wear them at the high school-- my daughters and their friends all wore the optional dress pants or rugby pants. I have been to events at both venues and have no complaints about student behaviour. When I walk to the local parish to attend the monthly elementary school Mass I note that behaviour at Mass is exemplary, right down to every last child never sitting down before the priest himself sits. My own husband is a teacher in a Catholic elementary school. It is very difficult for a teacher to counteract home influences in the area of manners and morals-- any teacher in any school will tell you this, so don't blame the teachers and school administration entirely for Dawn's difficult crowd. Also, it's important to remember that a cross section of elementary school students and teachers is going to resemble a cross section of any parish. You may then respond with "yes, so the parishes are deteriorating as well" (an argument I've heard). But why not try to set a good example yourself, and raise your kids to set a good example, and pray for everyone involved instead of dismissing the whole enterprise out of hand? My own kids have been disgusted by children of so-called conservative Catholics telling them to their face how awful their school/school system is-- an insult to them, their friends, their teachers, their parents who cannot afford private schools like the critics can, and finally to their father-- a faithful Catholic who teaches in an Ontario Catholic school.
Michelle M | 05.02.08 - 8:27 am | #

Wasn't going to comment again but I keep seeing the students place the blame on Dawn for this controversy erupting. As someone else said earlier in the comments, I didn't think negatively of Holy Cross students or their teachers after her first post about the event. I saw "tough crowd" and thought nothing of it. Even her comment of "epidermis buffet" didn't cause much reaction from me b/c, as a long time reader of this blog, I'm used to Dawn using eye catching captions to highlight points. It wasn't until the students started coming to this blog to leave rude, ill thought (if thought at all), grammatically incoherent messages that I began to form a decidedly negative picture of Holy Cross, its students and its teachers.

This whole series of events could have been averted and/or turned to something positive if the students in their anger and frustration had, instead of going off the deep end and spewing their anger and frustration at Dawn, had instead offered her the constructive criticism that they have been purporting to offer in some of their follow up posts. If their school was truly filled with school spirit and help for others and always looking out for the little guy and those in need as they have proclaimed above than their first thought should have been, how can we help this speaker to make a better presentation for someone else instead of how can we make this person feel our hate/anger/ frustration for having to sit thru her "silly" talk. I'm surprised that they have a "bully awareness day" and didn't realize that what they were doing was in fact "bullying".

Their surprise at the adults chiming in and supporting Dawn are also a little disingenuous. Did they honestly think that we, Dawn's friends and readers, would allow them a bully pulpit for their infantile attacks without saying anything in return? If so, they are going to be in for a big surprise when they leave their school and enter the big bad world.
sam | 05.02.08 - 8:48 am | #

Dawn, I congratulate you for your courage in speaking out about chastity and in giving your witness to Christ.
And I am sorry that you met with such hostility and just plain rude behaviour at Ontario schools.

Might I make a suggestion? at a recent mini pro life conference here in NS, the director of the Yarmouth Crisis Pregnancy Centre shared her experience of speaking in schools on abstinence. She said that teens have absolutely no awareness of how dangerous early sexual activity is.
Many will contract STDs which will result in high rates of future infertility for those girls. They deserve to know that their activity now comes at a very high price. The very freedom they believe they have with their sexuality now will become the chains in their life later.

Yet adults continue to think that we need to give sex education in terms of protection first, encouraging teens to use the very things that will bring about their future ill health. Adults need to be challenged about this as they are simply trying to get themselves off the hook for their kids' activities, i.e. they don't want pregnancies in their girls. But what they promote with safe sex is exactly the go-ahead to be promiscuous which will ruin the future for those very teens.

Perhaps there is a way that you could include that warning in your talks. I realise that you are not approaching this as a health professional; but the schools seem to only allow in those in sex ed who are promoting the Planned Parenthood approach; we need health professionals who will show that abstinence is not only good for teens morally, but also for their health.

Julie Culshaw
Julie Culshaw | 05.02.08 - 9:32 am | #

Dawn, keep up the good work. Stay tough, you have alot of supporters! dave
Dave | 05.02.08 - 10:14 am | #

"The vitriol, the incoherence, and the self-assurance, taken together, are really appalling. I had heard that our Catholic schools were in bad shape, but I didn't realize it was this bad."

That's pretty much exactly what I thought, too. Do the teachers and parents really know what's going on here? Do they care? What would happen if someone sent them a copy of these ignorant, nearly-illiterate, narcissistic, rage-infused rants?

If I were a parent at that school, I'd be furious and you'd better believe there would be fall-out. In a million years, I'd never want my kids to be exposed to kids like these on a daily basis.
me, too | 05.02.08 - 11:08 am | #

Oh, and by the way to all those people commenting on hcc's grammar, get a life. You're only saying that because you find anything else wrong about what we're saying.

That's what I say! i dun no why grwn up alwayz make fun of how i talk! Me talk Good! LAWLZ!!11!ONE
Rima | 05.02.08 - 11:11 am | #

Michele M.,

The students at Holy Cross are an example of the results of a failing system. They are not an unusual or extraordinary example. This is not to say that ALL the boards are equally inept at delivering Catholic education and culture.
I agree, a lot of the problem is Canadian 'Catholic' parents' expectations. They do not have enough knowledge of their faith to desire more.( In general.)

Since you have an investmant in that system, I'm sure you do everything possible to improve it. Keep working. If your kids grow up faithful, they will be able to work at it too.

For the Church's mandate for Catholic Schools, and some reference for what I'm talking about: http://publicaffairs.cua.edu/ spe...llerKeynote.htm
(ArchBishop Miller )
lwestin | Homepage | 05.02.08 - 11:28 am | #

Isn't this school a state sponsored religious school? So is that what we can expect if we get a vouchers program, which would effectively place our private schools at the mercy of the tax paying public?
Ray Matthew | 05.02.08 - 11:53 am | #

Please, I know this is a huge comment stream to read, but as a graduate of the Ontario Catholic school system, I wish American readers would understand that the Canadian context is completely different from their own.

Having finally read all the HCC students' letters, I greatly sympathize with them. This has all been a huge cultural confusion. A talk that might have been great for American college students did not suit an audience of Canadian Catholic high school students, some of whom were really shocked by Dawn's sexual revelations.
Seraphic Single | Homepage | 05.02.08 - 12:01 pm | #

I don't think this is about Canadian vs. American vs. Catholic culture or whatever. I think this is about what has become of our Common Culture in general, especially in regard to adolescents. "Teenage" culture is a fairly recent phenomenon. People used to be children, and then adults with responsibilities. This is no longer true. Now we have this new demographic where there is a segment of the population that sort of looks like adults in physical appearance, but with the maturity of children. Commercially, this is a huge market-shows like the OC, stores like Forever 21, sites like Teenwire make money on this and promote it. We send the message over and over again that teens should get credit for being teens because that is "cool". Any attempt to undermine that message (wait until marriage, have "fun" later, etc) is practically criminal and "out of it". Teachers feel in order to teach, they have to "cool". It is a losing battle because the only way to be cool is to tell kids they have no personal responsibility (what they want to hear). No parent is popular with their kids in the moments they tell them to do their homework or clean their rooms. Why would it be any different when Dawn comes in with the counter-cultural message of pre-marital sex being disastrous?
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 05.02.08 - 12:33 pm | #

Rima, you're a hoot!!

er.. uh.. I mean. U r0x000rzZZ!!1!
Chris Molter | 05.02.08 - 12:57 pm | #

Pansy Moss, I thought the same as you did, when I read the first letters, but now I am coming over to Seraphic's point of view. If you read the students' letters carefully, you'll see that the majority strike a note of embarrassed modesty (albeit expressed in crude language), rather than outraged hedonism.

Clio
alias clio | 05.02.08 - 1:41 pm | #

I just added some more information to the bottom of the post, taken from LifeSiteNews' article.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 05.02.08 - 1:55 pm | #

How can one possibly have too much emphasis on "social justice" issues? They must be using the words in a different way than I normally understand them. It seems to me that the Church is a champion of Justice, and should remain that way. There must be something I don't get here.
Anne | Homepage | 05.02.08 - 2:18 pm | #

Dear Dawn,
As a Canadian, I'm thoroughly embarrassed and saddened to hear about this (heard the story over at Still Seraphic's blog). Though I don't follow your blog, I hear about you through Barb Nicolosi's blog, and I know you are doing fantastic work.
Looks like this is a case of dealing with powers and principalities here...and there must have been some serious spiritual battle going on if the response was that bad.
As a wise person once told me, you know you are truly living in the light if darkness makes a lot of noise when it comes along.
I'll pray for you and them.
Love,
Alisha
Alisha | 05.02.08 - 2:58 pm | #

How low could an adult go?
You have a very biased opinion on a school you stayed at for not even an hour.
And then you go and post this all over the internet on LifeSiteNews.
Very very mature of you.
Way to come down to the teenagers level.
Nice work.
Hcc | 05.02.08 - 3:02 pm | #

Hcc -- personally, I would welcome all this attention, including postings all over the Internet and LifeSiteNews. But, then again, I endeavor not to say stuff that I would be embarrassed to see disseminated everywhere. True, sometimes I go overboard, but I also try not to shy away from a rebuke when I do cross the line. I've gotten hollered at more than once, and it didn't scar me for life.

Holy Cross students generally -- Notwithstanding the late unpleasentness, I do hope that you all stick around this site to read and occasionally comment. Some of you have raised legitimate questions and concerns, and many of them are eventually addressed in various discussions. Moreover, it is very helpful to us all to have a greater understanding of what you all think and where you are coming from.

Anne -- it is true that the Church has a great emphasis on "social justice," but there are some who focus exclusively on such quasi-political issues, thereby placing excessive emphasis on them, rather than placing the focus on Christ. For example, there are those who so promote the so-called "seamless garment" that central life issues like not killing innocent babies gets pushed off to the periphery -- that is placing excessive emphasis on "social justice." Also, there are those who think that social justice means trying to create a "heaven on earth," that is, engaging in trying to obtain salvation by human efforts, rather that having Christ as the one and only savior of mankind. (Not to accuse them of being Judases, but Judas did complain that annointing oil presented to Jesus could have been sold and the money given to the poor. Again, an excessive emphasis on social justice for the poor (assuming he complained in good faith) led Judas to miss the greater point.) Liberation theologists and other quasi-Marxist adherents like this also place excessive emphasis on "social justice."
Bender | Homepage | 05.02.08 - 3:28 pm | #

"How can one possibly have too much emphasis on 'social justice' issues?"

By emphasizing them at the expense of everything else. It's tending the flower and neglecting the root.

The social justice of the Church flows from faith in Christ, from love of Him and love of others for His sake.

That means we must continually learn more about who Christ is, and that means listening to all that He has spoken through His Church... her doctrine, history, culture, traditions... and also learning from her mistakes. It means studying and learning to reason.

Social justice apart from this living faith is a cut flower, and ends up being antisocial and unjust.
Tim J. | Homepage | 05.02.08 - 3:35 pm | #

Thank you Bender and Tim, now I think I see what was being said. I'm not too well read on C.S. Lewis, but I believe he made a similar point in "Mere Christianity"? (i.e. not "Christianity and Social Justice" but "Christianity").

"Tending the flower and neglecting the root" - very good analogy, that makes sense.

Thanks again for your insight!
Anne | Homepage | 05.02.08 - 3:46 pm | #

Dawn ,
I would like to apologize, as a grade 10 student, for the way my school has acted in this situation. Even though I was not there, I still apologize.

If your impression on our school was that we compete to be sluts, thast fine. Its your blog right? I mean Oh well .

I've talked to quite a bit of students on this matter and this is the feedback, mgight make you feel so bad.

Me: Don't you feel bad for writing that stuff, I mean you get first impressions too dont you?

HCC( the one who called you a s--t and such : Yeah I guess.

Me: Why would you make a facebook group, and write those horrible things on her blog.

"Jay": One, I didn't write those blog comments, I just made the group, and I was just really angry when I saw that she was telling the world that the guys here, are pretty much pigs Feasting. I apologize, and I will apologize to her, I deleted the group, it was stupid of me.

Me: Good, because you gave our school such a bad name.

Me: your making our school look horrible

twogirlsfromhcc: I dont care, stop talking.

No Progress there, but yet again.
I Apologize .
- grade 10 from HCC
Holy Cross . | 05.02.08 - 3:48 pm | #

Thanks, Grade 10!
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 05.02.08 - 3:58 pm | #

I don't think this is about Canadian vs. American vs. Catholic culture or whatever. I think this is about what has become of our Common Culture in general, especially in regard to adolescents. "Teenage" culture is a fairly recent phenomen>>>

Yes, what used to be "rock and roll and horror comics" is now slasher films and the Internet. Something is always going to lead kids the 'wrong way,' it's up to parents to provide guidance. If that's there, it will overcome the other influences.
Neil C | 05.02.08 - 4:09 pm | #

I just think most of these people trying to make our school look bad is for the fun of it. Cause really when you think of it- Nobody, and I mean not a single person, writing these comments is going to get anything out of it what so ever! If everyone just stops, all your "Dawn Supporters: would just lay off of our school(criticizing it in general) this would all just go away.
Holy Cross Student | 05.02.08 - 4:20 pm | #

But nearly every HCC post provides fresh grist for criticism. And pretty darned funny grist, at that.

The basic problem is semantics. Apparently, many of the complainers feel that outward signs and signals have no relationship to inward behavior. But they also think that other people are smallminded if they read those signs and signals as presented.

The first may well be true. But the second? How are people to relate to each other except by outward signs -- particularly those which are deliberately chosen, like clothing? We do not have telepathy, and we don't walk around handing each other flash drives filled with our autobiographies and manifestos. It's not fair to expect everyone else to have the omniscience of God.

Clothes act as a precis of how we expect others to treat us and think about us. If we wear clothes demanding that they appreciate large tracts of our bodies, that's what people will remember about us. If we wear clothes demanding that others appreciate our artistry of style, people will remember our visual sense instead.

But if I wear a Frankenstein costume on Halloween, I can't expect people to figure out that I'm really dressed up as Ferretina the Weasel Queen.
Maureen | 05.02.08 - 8:06 pm | #

And then you go and post this all over the internet on LifeSiteNews.

Dawn didn't write the article on LifesiteNews. The article was written in response to the comments left here on the Internet.
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 05.02.08 - 9:16 pm | #

Pansy Moss, I thought the same as you did, when I read the first letters, but now I am coming over to Seraphic's point of view. If you read the students' letters carefully, you'll see that the majority strike a note of embarrassed modesty (albeit expressed in crude language), rather than outraged hedonism.

I really don't think so. If they were that prissy and squeamish, then their short skirts would be making everyone blush-as would every TV show and movie out. Acting like this was about Dawn embarrassing them was an attempt to try to turn this into an intelligible argument and a reason why this was Dawn's fault for their behavior.
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 05.02.08 - 9:28 pm | #

"And then you go and post this all over the internet on LifeSiteNews.

Dawn didn't write the article on LifesiteNews. The article was written in response to the comments left here on the Internet."

In response, She made such a big scene about 4 comments students from a school of 500 members and it was only grade 11 and 12 that saw her speech because the other schools did not find it a very powerful or eye opening speech.

I am not justifying what some of the comments students made but this issue is getting to blown up.
Hcc | 05.02.08 - 10:26 pm | #

I am not justifying what some of the comments students made but this issue is getting to blown up.

Do you think so? Well, if so, you and your classmates set the fuse.
Amy K. | 05.02.08 - 10:58 pm | #

"I am not justifying what some of the comments students made but this issue is getting to blown up.

Do you think so? Well, if so, you and your classmates set the fuse."

I am pretty sure if dawn did not leave ANY comments about us in her blog no one would have cared so it was HER and all of you that are lighting the fuse and keep putting more and more gas on it.
Hcc | 05.02.08 - 11:05 pm | #

There are a lot of blogs referencing this thread. I guess the HCC students' hate fest got a little more attention from a lot more people than they imagined. Like they probably DIDN't imagine that Dawn had her own supporters, for example.

Anyone really think they've learned anything?
lwestin | Homepage | 05.02.08 - 11:26 pm | #

Nobody, and I mean not a single person, writing these comments is going to get anything out of it what so ever!

Oh, that's not true! I'm getting lots out of this discussion, actually. It's not just that there have been some laugh-out-loud messages from outraged students, but it's given me a lot to think about in terms of how to communicate with young people.

Seraphic Single and Alias Clio both picked up on the same thing I was noticing, that there was an interesting moral component in the students' complaints:

Pansy Moss replied:
I really don't think so. If they were that prissy and squeamish, then their short skirts would be making everyone blush-as would every TV show and movie out.

I don't think this really follows. People can be hard in some areas, and soft in others. Teenagers particularly. On the one hand, you'll see the minimal clothing/randy popular culture/bad language in any high school. But if you talk to those teenagers, you will discover that many of them also believe strongly in marriage/family/chastity.

As a very conservative-minded teenager, it really puzzled me. Some of the most passionately Catholic pro-life teens I know were horribly scanty dressers with a very naughty vocabulary. They just didn't see a contradiction.

I doubt the commenters here *are* at that extreme. But they're probably a mixture of hard and soft: like all teenagers. Like all people, really.
Eileen R | 05.02.08 - 11:36 pm | #

Hi Lwestin (and others),
I don't know if we've learned anything but we've certainly asked a lot of questions. What does it mean to be Catholic/Christian/Faithful? What sort of pressures are on young people growing up? How do we communicate across cultures and across generations? How can we understand and learn from one another? What support and guidance do young people need? What is the best way to reach them?

I am encouraged (somewhat!) by some of the dialog opening up. I don't want to make light of the fact that a lot of hurtful things were said, I'm not trying to paint a picture of "isn't this all wonderful" but I like to see some of the conversations occurring (although at the same time being disturbed by some of the tone).

How can we learn and teach and promote values such as chastity but also including courtesy, tact, patience, wisdom, discretion, understanding, communication, compassion, respect? What other values are necessary and part of Faith and how do we live them in our lives and pass them to the next generation in a way that can be understood?

Thank you Dawn and thank you commenters and students who have maintained a respectful and open tone.

Question for students: can you mention some of the positive messages you heard from Dawn? If you were to convey such a message to your peers, what is the best way to reach them?
Anne | Homepage | 05.02.08 - 11:42 pm | #

Dawn,

Well, I just saw the two clips you put up. Talk about doing penance for your sins, "undoing" them - this is really over the top. What a loving, compassionate and holy way to be, Dawn. Especially moving and thought provoking- your talk on secondary virginity. Give that often enough and you will wake up "extra-virgin" in Heaven :) It's a consoling thought, isn't it, that in Heaven when "the former things have passed away," "neither will they come to mind." Personally I look forward to that very much, to *that* new beginning that utterly overwhelms the past.

Then everyone that encounters you, Dawn, will see or hear nothing of the past you have repudiated so thoroughly, but only the holiness, bravery and purity that you exemplify.

May God bless you through and through! Thanks for all you do- and endure.
Lee | 05.02.08 - 11:47 pm | #

Thank you so much, Lee. I'm very happy you watched the clips, as they give a fuller and more accurate impression of what I expressed at Holy Cross than anything I could write.

It is, as you say, a truly consoling thought to know that "when the former things have passed away," "neither will they come to mind"--and that "He will wipe away every tear."
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 05.03.08 - 12:12 am | #

Okay, so I lied. That wasn't my last comment. But someone asked how to reach us, talk to us?

It's simple. Don't condescend, patronize, beat around the bush, or tell us what is best for us (I am not implying that Dawn did any of these things, these are general rules). I know that I don't know everything, and that there are people more intelligent, eloquent, and educated than I, but as a person, actual and whole, I hate being talked down to, or even perceiving a situation in a way that makes me feel talked down to. As a teenager (even though I hate that word) I hate being made to feel like because of my age I am not worth listening to, or that my thoughts, words and actions are worth less than others.

I know that I, personally, am hard-headed, stubborn, and extremely opinionated. When someone tells me something I don't want to hear I usually block it out. I, as I stated earlier, am lucky to know who I am, but maybe that has rendered me deaf to the opinions of others. I could definitely be more open to the ideas of others. Not meaning that I would forsake my own morals and values for those of others, but that I would listen, appreciate and respect the validity of others' opinions, feelings, and by extension, their humanity - humanity being the thing often lost in discussions to do with sex, religion, or politics.

So, in conclusion, to speak to high school students, follow the golden rule. (Yes, it's quite funny, the atheist pulling out the church teaching. I have gone to catholic school all my life.) Treat us like you would like to be treated. Speak to us like you would like to be spoken to. In addition, be confident, because high school is a jungle, and the lions will pounce if you show any signs of weakness.

(And to the commenter who snarked that I had seemingly finished my life's work by knowing who I am, and implying that I had a ways to go, I know who I am right now. There is always room for change, and if I ever stop growing and learning, there would be no point to my life, but I know and am secure in myself.)

Thank you for letting me share my thoughts- despite my initial, hostile response a week ago. I hope these comments can stray from one-shot diatribes and flow into discussion.

-hccstudent
hccstudent | 05.03.08 - 12:59 am | #

hccstudent, You said, "I hope these comments can stray from one-shot diatribes and flow into discussion."

I'm officially taking you up on your offer. I tried to engage one of your friends earlier but she has not come back. My question for you relates to this quote:

Don't condescend, patronize, beat around the bush, or tell us what is best for us (I am not implying that Dawn did any of these things, these are general rules).

If Dawn did not do those things, in your opinion why did your classmates have such a negative response to her?

Although the response here has been uniformly negative toward Dawn, do you feel that everyone felt the same way? Or was it just the ones who reacted negatively who came to post?

I'm not really going anywhere with this; I'm just genuinely curious about your impressions.
Amy K. | 05.03.08 - 2:12 am | #

To the students who are reading these comments.

I know what it's like to be a teenager having sex. I lost my virginity when I was 14 to a lovely boyfriend who was 18. It was wonderful to feel so close so someone, to feel wanted and loved and the sex was fun too.

But at age 34 with a husband of 10 years and four boys, I know that 20 years ago, the sex I was having wasn't what sex _could_ be. At 14 I was more kid than woman. Once you're grown up, you're an adult for the rest of your life. Your childhood is over and you can't go back.

I was an atheist then, now I'm Catholic, but it was when I was 19 (and still an atheist) that I realised just how jaded I was and I really grieved over my childhood that was cut short.

Fabulous sex, deep wonderful sex, comes from being in a relationship where you know, with full certainty, that this is the guy or girl that you will grow old with. My husband won't leave me, he's mine for life. I don't have to worry if some woman flirts with him, it won't turn his head. I don't have any of the hassles over commitment, or trust or stds for that matter.

I've been where you guys are, and after 10 years of marriage, I know from personal experience that Dawn is right.

Don't sell yourself short with a boyfriend, wait for marriage. It's God's way because it's the best way and the happiest way too, even if you don't believe in Him, it still works.
Tess | 05.03.08 - 3:09 am | #

I can not speak for any of my classmates, but I just thought it was boring. Maybe I did not connect with the content, or the way it was being delivered, but after a couple of minutes I was tuned out. In addition to this, I was confused to parts of the speech (the Spiderman part, to be exact) and then people began to be singled out for not paying attention (which is easily noticed when there are no more than 100 kids in the room). It was an uncomfortable atmosphere paired with an unwelcome topic.

Maybe Dawn had an off day at our school? But, no offense meant at all, the presentation was not strong. Especially compared to the last two speakers we've had, one of whom had his wife and daughter die of AIDS. That presentation was captivating and emotional. This one was derailed by Spidey and a watch.

The response from our school had been uniformly negative even before finding this blog. We had to fill out anonymous survey sheets and they were pretty dismal ratings all around.
That was a day and a half before the blog was even found.

I think that the post just made people angry because of the implications of the short skirt comments. It's actually an "x-kilt" which means there are shorts built into it. Not that well I might add. The picture was a point of contention as well.

I don't know if that answers your questions but I would be happy to keep answering any you have.
hccstudent | 05.03.08 - 3:12 am | #

Some various thoughts:

As a male (and former teenager), a short kilt and abundance of leg is a signal. It may be indicative of nothing else, but more leg will attract attention of male students.

Congratulations to the many students who reevaluated either an immature response or harsh comments towards Ms. Eden. It's never easy to consider that we have been wrong, but it's an important step.

Kudos to Ms. Eden for giving these talks. I could not do it. Many do not want to hear it. But it is so vital.

Also, a welcome to any atheist or non-Catholic Christian participants. In the words of St. Philip, "Come and see."

And a word of caution -- our Catholic schools are not built to equate beliefs, raise modern notions, or accommodate non-believers.

Note this from the London District County School Board: "The objective...is to develop in our students a love of God, people and self, an appreciation of prayer and a moral foundation to assist them as they journey through life."

Catholic schools exist to teach a Catholic perspective on God, morality, and education -- that is, they must follow the teachings of the Church.

Also, the school does not "belong" to the students, parents, or teachers. Teachers must dutifully hold their positions in trust, parents must guide their children, and the students are the temporary beneficiaries of the school.

The school is a vital community to be supported, guided, and appreciated -- but it is not an object for us to make in our own image.

Finally, an apology from my generation to the generation currently in school. It is not your fault that now even Catholic schools are battlegrounds in a full-scale cultural war. The "dictatorship of relativism" has spread far and wide.

But let us work together, despite our weak minds and weak hands. Our current Pope, (when he was still Cardinal Ratzinger) noted that He has entrusted us with truth -- "the mystery of God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; the mystery of God who 'so loved the world that he gave his only Son' (Jn 3: 16). He made us his friends - and how do we respond?"
Joe G. | 05.03.08 - 4:10 am | #

hccstudent, then I really do not understand the hate that was directed toward Dawn. If she had a boring presentation that just didn't connect with the audience, why the vicious rants directed toward her?

If it didn't come from the talk she gave, it must have come from her post about her talk. But as I and several others have mentioned, we read the post and had no negative thoughts about Holy Cross or its students. My impression was she talked to some high school students who didn't connect with her or her message. And like most high school students, some of them wore clothing that was inappropriately revealing. But since that's a chronic problem among teenagers, I didn't feel like Holy Cross was different from anywhere else.

What specifically about the post made everyone so incensed, enough to lose their self-control?
Amy K. | 05.03.08 - 4:28 am | #

And about the picture, as I recall it showed an attractive group of young people. My only thought when looking at it was a bit of nostalgia at the beauty and vitality of youth. What was so terrible about it?
Amy K. | 05.03.08 - 4:43 am | #

I agree with the sentiment that you should not be speaking to Canadian high school students about chastity. The schizophrenic culture you come from, with its dualism of puritanism/libertinism is the breeding ground for extremes in attitudes towards sexuality that results in, among other things, a very high rate of teenage pregnancy and a sexual hypocrisy that manifests in disturbing sexual acting out among American conservatives and religious authorities.

Please. Stay home.

The kids behaviour? They're high school kids. What do you expect? Loook around; it's the same everywhere.
Yankee Stay Home | 05.03.08 - 7:46 am | #

Oh, and to add another thing: in Canada, images of individuals are considered personal information, even when taken in public. Although it is not against the law to record information that is available in public, what you do with it can determine whether you are violating Canadian privacy laws, which are much stricter than in the US (as your Homeland Security Czar, Chertoff, had to be reminded of last week by our privacy commissioner).

Just thought you should know.
Yankee Stay Home | 05.03.08 - 8:31 am | #

The kids behaviour? They're high school kids. What do you expect? Loook around; it's the same everywhere.

One of the parents, right?

It doesn't matter why (cultural differences, George Bush, Americans have lots of Protestants), their behavior was wrong and it was evil behaviour. Do they treat other classmates like this? If they feel it is OK to treat anyone like this, their "cultural Catholicism" 101 is severely lacking. Everyone of these kids should write an essay to Dawn about Our Lady's charity and humility, the danger of cruel words, with an apology. Then do an hour of community service at Pregnancy Crisis Center.
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 05.03.08 - 9:07 am | #

Oh yeah, and not just the common concept of humility that people get wrong "I said I was wrong, therefore I am humbled" but why Our Lady is the Model of humility and why true humility is to be humbled by others and why it is a blessing.
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 05.03.08 - 9:11 am | #

The kids behaviour? They're high school kids. What do you expect? Loook around; it's the same everywhere.

I really despise this kind of rationalization for bad behavior. I have heard it my whole life and it is, if you pardon my saying so, total crap.

If everyone did it, there would have been 100 students posting vile messages on this board. I can remember hearing throughout my childhood as an excuse for bullying children, "children can be so cruel." "That's just the way kids are." "Boys will be boys."

That is a cop-out, usually spouted by parents of cruel, misbehaving children.
Amy K. | 05.03.08 - 9:26 am | #

Yankee, you must be a VIRTUAL expert on (Canadian liberal view of Americans). Another product of Canadian education?

Me too, but I recovered.
lwestin | Homepage | 05.03.08 - 9:47 am | #

Wow, those are a lot of comments. And all over a bad day in a semi-public religious school. Alright, I'm gonna try to be serious for a bit. My last comment / Heist reference was deleted (I' so tragically unhip, *sob*), so I suppose my humor isn't all that good.

Anyway, reading through all the HCC students' responses here (not going over to their tinpot collection of two-minute hates...I can do my own, thank you very much), I can say that I actually sympathize. I'm not that far removed from high school, so I still remember what it feels like. I went to a Salesian Catholic high school, so I'm sure I know what it feels like to be in a Catholic high school.

First off, I can understand the school spirit thing. Its our tribe, (hence the Lord of the Flies reference by Dawn, which the HCC students didn't seem to get) and we would go to Hell and back to defend that very first community where we felt, by our own volition, we belonged. I went to war for my school, against our cross-town rivals (knives, home-made pillbox explosives, fighting in the streets, students getting rounded up by cops, the whole deal), so I know the whole "school spirit" deal a hell of a lot more than your average cheerleader. (oh, yeah, GO GRAYWOLVES!)

And, I know how it is to slee..err...sit through mandatory assemblies with good speakers you did not care to listen to. (I hated the drug awareness one, nearly puked at the STD one.)

So, to my actual points for the students of HCC. I know how important the tribal affiliation to "school spirit" is. We took care of our own, to extremes. But, when the roll of the years pass, you will find that you probably did a lot of stupid things in the name of school spirit. That little street war we had? It was over a girl. (Well, one of our guys being beat up for courting one of their girls...long story...) I'm personally embarrassed I got involved in it. (No police record, thankfully. I was faster than the guy next to me.) The point here being, there is more to life than mere school spirit. And, an offense to such an amorphous, fickle thing as school spirit is not worth piling on the two-minute hates and accumulating grudges at perceived insults. Selling your soul and mental well-being is one thing. Selling both for "school spirit" is a whole new level of pathetic. So, yeah...(*is pathetic*)

The second point is that, getting bored to death is usually not an excuse to start an entire collection of poorly-written, sophomoric diatribes. If we had done this, somebody would have legislated hate crime laws to protect teachers. Behind the student yammering over perceived insults, I'm sure Dawn managed to touch on something much deeper. You lash out at the things that are actually true, for those actually hurt. The stuff that is false, you usually just dismiss over lunchtime the way you dismissed the science teacher who tried to "rap" his lecture. You don't prostitute your good name for the false stuff. I think it would be much more productive if the students would spend more time in introspection over what made the talk so "insulting", and less time lashing out at actual non-insults. With the first, one might actually learn something. With the second, well, you have a bunch of sophomoric diatribes published online to forever testify to the power of your temporary insanity. As a high school grad, you do not want such stupidity coming back to bite you once you're out in the real world.

Anyway, to the students of HCC, enjoy the rest of high school. But please do remember that high school will not be the pinnacle of your existence. You know, because it would be really, really sad if that were true.
JonathanR. | 05.03.08 - 9:48 am | #

...our Catholic schools are not built to equate beliefs, raise modern notions, or accommodate non-believers.

True -- but I do all I can to ensure that my children's Catholic school does all three. None is intinsically incompatible with Catholic teachings.

The school is a vital community to be supported, guided, and appreciated -- but it is not an object for us to make in our own image.

To some extent, it HAS to be remade in the image of its community, just like a parish. This is why I am on the parent board at my kids' Catholic school -- the ideals may be universal, but every community is different, and needs a different approach to present the same values and teach the same message.

Dawn's experience at HCC is a case in point: there was certainly nothing wrong with what she was saying, but it was not presented in way that compelled her audience to be receptive to it.
L. | Homepage | 05.03.08 - 11:05 am | #

What specifically about the post made everyone so incensed, enough to lose their self-control?

I think most students felt that since the presentation was not done well (in our eyes) that we were being blamed for the presentation not going well, and the bit about the kilts just felt like an extra dig that put us down and made others feel morally superior to promiscuous-looking catholic school girls.

I think this was also a bit of mob mentality at it's worst. Once word got out people wanted to have their say, and as people talked, it went from, "Wow, where did the school board find her?" to "Oh my god did you hear about the website thing? I
am going to comment tonight. That was so rude, to talk about us! She sucks."
And of course, after I set the bar so low with my first comment, it went too far very quickly.

What was so terrible about it?

Once again, it felt, I think, as if we were being made fun of, and that she was misinterpreting the response. Also, it is a law in Canada and a rule in our school board that pictures must be approved for online use. We sign release forms for pictures that go in student newsletters, the school website, etc.

JonathanR. - That was a great response and is an apt description of high school.

But please do remember that high school will not be the pinnacle of your existence. You know, because it would be really, really sad if that were true.

I agree wholeheartedly. There is a saying: "These are the best times of our lives". If that were true, I would not be happy about it. Especially since I have fifty plus years to make each day better than the last.

...our Catholic schools are not built to equate beliefs, raise modern notions, or accommodate non-believers.

If that is true of most catholic schools, I am very glad to go to Holy Cross. I am not "accommodated" in the sense that there are changes made to suit my faith(or lack of it), but it is accepted, and I am not treated any different for it. Also, I am in a grade 11 world religions course, and I can honestly say, it is one of the most rewarding experiences of my school career. As an impartial observer I've seen that the most important thing about faith is love. People love their gods, god, prophet, or whomever they believe in, and love has no bounderies.
hccstudent | 05.03.08 - 11:36 am | #

Bingo, Amy K. and Pansy; you got it right.

One thing I haven't yet seen here is the correct response to "Dawn go home; we don't want you here."

You should be redirecting that anger to your teachers and school administrators. Far as I know, no speaker waltzes into a school whenever the mood strikes.

She was invited. By your school.
me, too | 05.03.08 - 11:55 am | #

Interesting to learn from hccstudent how easily the students were distracted. If they were so distracted by my removing a bulky watch that had been lent me to keep track of the time (I removed it so I wouldn't be distracted by it--it was less imposing on the podium than on my wrist), then the other distractions probably didn't help. Those distractions included rock music blaring from the gym next door, where students were loudly shooting hoops, and _two_ faulty microphones. I had to hand the first one to the tech guy when the battery ran out, but the second one still made me sound like I was underwater.

It's understandable that students might not find my talk compelling given such challenges, but that doesn't excuse the vitriol and threats.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 05.03.08 - 12:02 pm | #

I really despise this kind of rationalization for bad behavior. I have heard it my whole life and it is, if you pardon my saying so, total crap.

Despise? Crap? Don't you think those emotions are just a tad angry? Don't you think younger people pick up on the emotion you're modeling and parrot it back in their interactions with each other?

It's not a rationalization. My children certainly don't talk like that, but take a look at the cultural landscape; this kind insolence is celebrated, especially in the US, where the children treat the parents like idiots and the adults think that's cute or precocious.
Yankee Go Home | 05.03.08 - 12:25 pm | #

I really despise this kind of rationalization for bad behavior. I have heard it my whole life and it is, if you pardon my saying so, total crap.

Despise? Crap? Don't you think those emotions are just a tad angry? Don't you think younger people pick up on the emotion you're modeling and parrot it back in their interactions with each other?

Um, no. Anger at people who refuse to discipline their children and allow them to hurt people without consequences is justifiable anger.
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 05.03.08 - 12:56 pm | #

Yankee,
parents who excuse their children's ignorant behavior by blaming the recipient are responsible for them growing up ignorant. HCC isn't an American school. and Dawn wasn't ignorant to them. They have no cause, except bad upbringing and deplorable excuse for a catholic school. They are not behaving like Catholics. They learn this MOSTLY at home.


L,
You are wrong about what a Catholic school and Catholic culture are about. Check my previous post which links to the 'Holy See's Teaching on Catholic Schools'.

Some parents could use a clue.


As an expat Canadian living in a small minority Catholic community, I pray for the day we stop importing Ontario principals for our school. The Americans have better access to good faithful teachers. Numbers alone could accomplish this, but also their Catholic culture is much less repressed and more knowledgeable (in general) than the Catholic community in Canada. The difference is pretty obvious from the outside.
In Canada its still a very much uphill battle to reclaim the church after years of soft soap and bad catechesis, as well as outright dissent. Our generation are pretty lukewarm Catholics, and its going to take some awareness and desire for truth on the part of parents to make it better for our kids.

Maybe this thread will accomplish some of that, by putting the 'result' of years of neglect in our face .
lwestin | Homepage | 05.03.08 - 2:29 pm | #

Ok Dawn, your message is great, but you your public speaking skills are painfull and need improvment. Get some public speaking coaching PLEASE! Many famous people have gotten over their stuttering, etc! Really, it is pretty immature not to expect high schoolers to respond to a poor presentation this way! You should have just let it blow over.
Theresa | 05.03.08 - 4:26 pm | #

Since no-one seems to have mentioned it in this stream (lately?), I will mention that Catholic girls at schools everywhere roll or otherwise shorten their kilts, even at all-girls schools. It is not about attracting male attention. It is an integral part of Catholic schoolkid culture. The women teachers yelling at girls to "Roll down your kilt and tuck in your blouse!" rolled their own kilts ten or twenty years ago. It's not a conscious crime against chastity: it's a crime against the uniform. And an earnest desire not to look like a Grade 9 kid. Much more on this over at my spot.

The best advice I have for Dawn is to modify her talk for teenagers and remember that virginity is still a point of pride for many Catholic communities. If she had come by my school in 1990 and made it sound as if she assumed very few of us were virgins, we would have FREAKED. And we would have been very uncomfortable with references to her sexual past. Also, the culture of the Catholic Church in Canada is much different from the culture of the Catholic Church in the United States. But, again, more on this at my spot.

Finally, they might be very rude kids, and some of them said very rude and childish things, but they felt that they, their honour and their school were attacked. And they are KIDS. Kids have to be protected, even from well-meaning adults. They are not our equals. They are not fair game in internet debates. They are not foes worthy of our steel.

I hope this sad debate doesn't take away from Dawn's great work with college kids in the USA.
Seraphic Single | Homepage | 05.03.08 - 4:29 pm | #

Really, it is pretty immature not to expect high schoolers to respond to a poor presentation this way!

Theresa --

1. Do you really mean to suggest that we should have lowered expectations for teens, or that we should simply and naturally expect them to be rude and obnoxious? It seems that the more charitable and "mature" approach is to expect more of them, to insist that they live up to their obligation to virtue. Jesus did not say, "It's OK, be imperfect, you're only human." He said, "Be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." Yes, we should have higher expectations for youth -- we should raise the bar, not lower it. Only then will they rise up.

2. (a) Do you really mean to suggest that that the fault for obnoxious behavior lies, not in the person acting obnoxiously, but in someone else, to whom we can perceive some defect? We are each responsible for our own personal behavior, regardless of what someone else may or may not have done or be like.
(b) Let us accept (for the sake of the discussion) your premise that it was a "poor" presentation and/or that Dawn's public speaking skills are generally "painful" and in need of improvement. Personally, I've never noticed more than a rare hitch in her voice, but let us suppose that she (or some other speaker) has a full-blown stutter. For that matter, let us suppose that he or she can hardly speak at all, and must use some mechanical voice device, or maybe he or she simply grunts. And let us suppose that such speaker had other socially "undesirable" traits and "imperfections" -- they are old or physically deformed or unattractive or bald or some other attribute that disqualifies them from being a Hollywood movie star.
Again, do you really mean to suggest that we should not expect teens to act charitably toward such person? That is, with the love that we all are called to give to fellow children of God?
I once had the great honor of being in the presence of one particular speaker who could hardly do more than grunt. Because of Parkinson's his body was solidifying into a human statute, and in his last public apprearance there was some drooling. If teens were to laugh at and mock this "great" man, should we simply turn away and ignore it? Should we simply expect teens to be obnoxious jerks toward others who are "less than perfect"? Now, I'm sure that, if they had, he would forgive them, just as he forgave the man who shot him on May 13, 1981. But even forgiveness requires acknowledging the wrongful behavior.

It does not matter if they person that they are dealing with is the lowest of the low -- even teens have an obligation to be decent and respectful. To be sure, the lower the other is, the greater obligation we have to be charitable toward them, to see in them the face of Jesus Himself. And since we have an obligation of charity in return, we should exercise the spiritual works of mercy of admonishing sinners and instructing the ignorant, while at the same time bearing wrongs patiently and forgiving all injuries. But, again, forgiveness, which I'm sure our dear hostess has already done, requires first acknowledging the wrong, not ignoring it.
Bender | Homepage | 05.03.08 - 5:51 pm | #

Dear Dawn and All Her Supporters,

As a student at HCC, i feel the need to appolgize to her on behalf od the senior population of the school. I would also like to state that you can not judge our school based on the comments that 10 or so students posted stating hateful things. I feel that our school is strongly being misrepresented. We are a great school and over the past couple years since we have opened have done some amazing things. We recently hosted a fasion show, which helped raise money for "walk it out" a charity event we have planned on May 23rd, to help raise money for cancer research. We have had many events like so and i believe all of our good overweighs our bad things we have written on this blog. I beliebe that these remarks were in somewhat of a defence to the comments which easily could have been misunderstood about our school by Dawn.
Now i can not say that all of these comments were necessary or even acceptable, and i and truly sorry for those comments. As a senior in this school i am writting this message in hopes of restoring our schools diginty and reputation.
i fell that this is the falt of both side..and that this can not just be pinpointed to a group of students or just to Dawn. this was a few people who had felt that Dawns presentation was one that was almost a misrepensation of our school. many of our students are very respectable and care greatly for others.
I believe that in future presentations Dawn you should maybe attempt to get the students involve, this way we might actually take more away from your presentations. You have a good public speaking talent and i am sure our students don't want you to just stop speaking, just strive to improve the communicational skills to the audience(highschool students). I was also going to mention that it was not just our school who had a disagreeance with your talk, it was many of the schools in Ontario, this may of been because, we had not had a speaker who presented this in the same way as you.
my intention of this post was to hopefully put a end to this on going battle between our student and other blog posters.
I am truly sorry for the actions of our schools students and i hope this post may help heal any hurt feelings that Dawn and her followers may have.
HCC is not as bad as you readers may believe it to be. We are a small school with great respect for others, and our hearts do bleed black and gold (our school colours)
Thank you for reading this message and i hope this allows the heal process to quicken.
B.P.L (Holy Cross Senior) | 05.03.08 - 5:52 pm | #

Finally, they might be very rude kids, and some of them said very rude and childish things, but they felt that they, their honour and their school were attacked. And they are KIDS. Kids have to be protected, even from well-meaning adults. They are not our equals. They are not fair game in internet debates. They are not foes worthy of our steel.

I don't consider 16-18 year olds kids. They are young adults.
Amy K. | 05.03.08 - 5:55 pm | #

The best advice I have for Dawn is to modify her talk for teenagers and remember that virginity is still a point of pride for many Catholic communities. If she had come by my school in 1990 and made it sound as if she assumed very few of us were virgins, we would have FREAKED.

Seraphic, you weren't present at my talk and you are not aware of how I referred to virgins. I used heavy irony when saying, "As hard as it may be to believe--there are virgins in this room!" If anyone thought I genuinely did not believe that many or most of the students, who were all in Grade 12, were virgins, they were simply not paying attention to my manner.

Why the irony? Because some of the students made it clear by their behavior that they were not interested in a talk on chastity--and because the principal and other faculty, by their failure to police them, enabled those students to display disrespect.

My message was that the true rebellion was not acting as though one had sexual experience or was planning to acquire it outside of marriage. The true rebellion, I said, was virginity, and virgins should be proud to stand apart from the crowd in their attitude and behavior.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 05.03.08 - 5:59 pm | #

Really, it is pretty immature not to expect high schoolers to respond to a poor presentation this way!

There is no expectation that someone respond to a presentation they do not connect with. There is EVERY expectation that they do not respond "this way." Are you telling me that you think it is acceptable that they responded in this particular (insults, disrespect) way?
Amy K. | 05.03.08 - 6:00 pm | #

hccstudent, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I appreciate it.

I can understand overreacting to a perceived slight against oneself. We have all done it at one time or another. And I believe you are spot on about the "mob mentality."

I actually think this has done a lot of good. Perhaps it is best for us to realize how we can do things that we are embarrassed about later when we let our emotions get away from us. This has been simply an internet kerfuffle that is, at base, anonymous. A valuable lesson learned early and well.

Have a great day. :)
Amy K. | 05.03.08 - 6:05 pm | #

I feel that our school is strongly being misrepresented.

BPL -- If I may be so bold as to speak for others, as well as myself -- please do not think that we believe that everyone at your school has acted poorly. I am sure that an overwhelming number of the students at your school are very good and decent people, and it has only been a relative handful of people that have acted like jerks.

Please do not allow the fact that a few people are being called on it to cast aspersions upon all of you. And to the extend that we have painted with too broad a brush at times, please accept our apologies.

In any event, I hope that you and your fellow students, even those who have been rightly admonished, remain here in the coming months and years to continue the discussion.
Bender | Homepage | 05.03.08 - 6:06 pm | #

L,
You are wrong about what a Catholic school and Catholic culture are about. Check my previous post which links to the 'Holy See's Teaching on Catholic Schools'.

Some parents could use a clue.


L. Westin -- Thank you, but I have plenty of "clues." I do not believe I am wrong, and I will continue to work for what I sincerely believe, as all of us do.

Catholic culture is about all of us.
L. | Homepage | 05.03.08 - 6:58 pm | #

The best advice I have for Dawn is to modify her talk for teenagers and remember that virginity is still a point of pride for many Catholic communities. If she had come by my school in 1990 and made it sound as if she assumed very few of us were virgins, we would have FREAKED.

* * *

Seraphic, you weren't present at my talk and you are not aware of how I referred to virgins. I used heavy irony when saying, "As hard as it may be to believe--there are virgins in this room!" If anyone thought I genuinely did not believe that many or most of the students, who were all in Grade 12, were virgins, they were simply not paying attention to my manner.

* * *

Is there no one left where virginity rater than being a point of pride is simply a fact of life? I couldn't imagine being "proud" of such a thing. It reminds me of the Chris Rock stand-up where he says he is tired of people bragging about stuff they are supposed to to (warning-this is cut and paste from a transcript, so please excuse the langauge):

"N-----s always want credit for some s@*t they're supposed to do," he announces, in typically head-on fashion.

"They'll brag about stuff a normal man just does. They'll say something like, 'Yeah, well, I take care of my kids.'

You're supposed to, you dumb m----------r.

'I ain't never been to jail.'

Whaddya want? A cookie? You're not supposed to go to jail, you low-expectation-having m----------r!"

"I will mention that Catholic girls at schools everywhere roll or otherwise shorten their kilts, even at all-girls schools."

Everywhere? Um, no. Most? Yes. It's a great indicator of a crappy Catholic school. They obviously don't take their Catholicism seriously.

I've seen shortened skirts outside of Catholic HSs and they look like pole dancers. I make sure to call the school and tell them that I'd NEVER send my kids to their school when their students walk around looking like that. I know that some principals have a very difficult time maintaining a bit of class re: skirt length because most of the PARENTS don't want to fight with their kids. But, still, there are Catholic HS's who don't allow rule breaking with the uniform. It can be done.

Just because most schools allow this doesn't make it right or good, at all. My standards are higher for my kids.
me, too | 05.03.08 - 8:04 pm | #

"Why the irony? Because some of the students made it clear by their behavior that they were not interested in a talk on chastity--and because the principal and other faculty, by their failure to police them, enabled those students to display disrespect."

I really don't get what u are trying to say here dawn because during you presentation it was very quiet and if we weren't according to you why didn't u tell us to be quiet?
Hcc | 05.03.08 - 8:22 pm | #

"Is there no one left where virginity rater than being a point of pride is simply a fact of life? I couldn't imagine being "proud" of such a thing."

In a culture that ridicules virginity and chastity it's absolutely a point of pride.
George G. | 05.03.08 - 8:40 pm | #

Once again, rolling kilts is a Catholic school cultural thing, and it is not about looking slutty. Many of the HCCSS girls who have defended themselves here take their Catholicism seriously. I rolled my kilt and took my Catholicism seriously. A short skirt does not mean a girl or woman is not a serious Catholic, or that she is sexually available, or that she deserves to be raped, as we have too recently managed to get judges to understand. We're still working on certain Australian imams over that one.

As for the "do girls understand the effect their clothes have on men" question, the answer is NO. No, many teenage girls don't usually know that.

Teenage girls are barely aware of any man over the age of 25, and even when they are, they would be repulsed if he made a pass at them (once they understood that was what he was doing). If they catch a man over the age of 25 staring at them, they think he is a dirty old man. It is such a gruesome thought that "old men" would love to have sex with them that they would rather not know.

Teenagers are not yet adults, and they need to be protected from adults, not adults from teenagers. Catholic girls did not ask grown men to fetishize their uniforms. And Catholic girls (I repeat) are not trying to attract men with their short kilts. And, as some Catholic boy wrote here, Catholic boys get acclimatized to legs, just as men in general got used to seeing women's ankles.

I suggest that those who never wore a kilt to school reserve their judgement of girls who do.
Seraphic Single | Homepage | 05.03.08 - 9:05 pm | #

Hey, I couldn't *get* my kilt to roll. It was a defective product!

HCC Student wrote:
Also, it is a law in Canada and a rule in our school board that pictures must be approved for online use. We sign release forms for pictures that go in student newsletters, the school website, etc.

This is quite true in the Canadian provinces I'm familiar with. Possibly not in all of them, but definitely in Ontario and Alberta. As it happened, Dawn had removed the picture by the time I arrived to this controversy, but it's worth remembering for anyone who finds themselves in these fair climes.

Dawn wrote:
I used heavy irony when saying, "As hard as it may be to believe--there are virgins in this room!" If anyone thought I genuinely did not believe that many or most of the students, who were all in Grade 12, were virgins, they were simply not paying attention to my manner.

My own experience is that a lot of teenagers don't get irony at all. Definitely a lot of these kids commenting didn't, since they believed that you were saying they were sluts. Irony is a learned art. Some people will never get it, some get it early, but a lot of people just haven't got it yet in their teens.
Eileen R | 05.03.08 - 9:32 pm | #

I really don't get what u are trying to say here dawn because during you presentation it was very quiet and if we weren't according to you why didn't u tell us to be quiet?

Hccstudent, first of all, there were several students chatting with one another. I know this because I walked around the crowd with my roving mike and stopped in front of each of the chatterers, and I got a real workout. (This is what some students are referring to when they say I "singled out" students, but as you note, I didn't actually tell anyone to be quiet. I would simply stop in front of the students who were chatting and keep on giving my regular talk, only speaking directly to them. It worked, but, as I said, it required a lot of footwork on my part.)

As to why I didn't tell students to be quiet, I wasn't not one of your teachers, but a guest speaker. A guest should not be in the position to tell students to be quiet--that's the teachers' job.Your classmates, as Grade 12s, should know that they are supposed to treat guest speakers with respect.

I did in fact comment on the noise and say that it didn't make it easy for me. My saying, as some students have mentioned, that I "liked" it, was because I said, "although I'm not happy about it, it's good in that it shows you're uncomfortable. It means you're modest. You realize that sex should not be discussed in public. It should be private."

"And the only reason I'm discussing it," I continued, "is because you're already getting one message about it from the media and the wider culture--but you're not getting the whole message. I'm telling you what I wish someone had told me when I was your age. If they had, I might have avoided a lot of unhappiness."
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 05.03.08 - 10:09 pm | #

alias clio:
Pansy Moss, I thought the same as you did, when I read the first letters, but now I am coming over to Seraphic's point of view. If you read the students' letters carefully, you'll see that the majority strike a note of embarrassed modesty (albeit expressed in crude language), rather than outraged hedonism.

Pansy Moss:
I really don't think so. If they were that prissy and squeamish, then their short skirts would be making everyone blush-as would every TV show and movie out.

Although there's no certainly excuse for the rudeness some of the students have displayed, I'd be a little slower to dismiss thoughtful opinions on cultural differences unless one has an understanding of the culture in question.
Terezia | 05.03.08 - 10:40 pm | #

The Canadian Government should immediately take emergency measures about the pathetic language grasp of these high school students. There is no doubt that obsession with revealing clothing can drastically bring down intelligence levels.
joseph | 05.04.08 - 1:38 am | #

Although there's no certainly excuse for the rudeness some of the students have displayed, I'd be a little slower to dismiss thoughtful opinions on cultural differences unless one has an understanding of the culture in question.

Granted I never lived in Canada. But when I was in high school I lived in a British Commonwealth country and attended an International School. Most of my friends were Australian, New Zealand and Canadians. With my Canadian classmates, I remember they wee very quick to note their accents were not American, the Canadian teachers mentioned they had trouble with Americans because we were loud, used up natural resources,the girls dressed trashy, George Bush was stupid, blah, blah, blah (I heard from every teacher constantly as I was lie the only American).

When it came to partying,being chaste (lack thereof) and the teenagers acting like teenagers, there was no difference between the Canadian kids, Aussies, Kiwis, Brits etc.The only difference I seemed to show was as an American, I was louder, and used a great deal more slang.(But that might have nothing to do with being American as much as it has to do with being black and Italian-two groups neither of which I can say are noted for being quiet people).
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 05.04.08 - 2:33 am | #

I suggest that those who never wore a kilt to school reserve their judgement of girls who do.

Sigh. Every girl in a school uniform tries to adjust their uniforms to make themselves look more attractive. You can always tell the good Catholic schools from the ones where Catholic values are not the center of education because of how the kids alter their uniforms. It is always the nature of children to try to express "individuality" by trying to follow the current fashion trends, which are lacking in modesty. It is always the nature of girls to try to make themselves physically attractive to boys. Good Catholic schools are the ones that enforce the uniforms. The point of school uniforms is to control modesty and neatness, and to be an equalizer.

Catholic girls who have been immersed in their faith since a young age get this. Even if they go to school and roll up their skirts in an attempt to fit in with the other kids, they understand the reasoning why they have to fix the skirt before they come home and their parents see them like that...

This is so not rocket science.
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 05.04.08 - 2:44 am | #

Pansy said: "Good Catholic schools are the ones that enforce the uniforms. The point of school uniforms is to control modesty and neatness, and to be an equalizer."

That is exactly what I mean. "Cultural differences" is not the point and should never be an excuse for breaking the rules. I am much more concerned with the ability of a school to enforce its own uniform rules and regulations.

A good school, one that understands the desperate need for students to abide by rules, is one that demands order, including their uniform rules.

It's good training for life, especially for any of them who take a job where the wearing of a uniform is required. And, as I said, they do exist.
me, too | 05.04.08 - 9:28 am | #

Exactly , Pansy.

My God-daughter attended a school. in Canada, where the parents argued it was discrimination to consider 'swearing' wrong. They argued that 'swearing' was 'cultural.'

Low standards that parents and teachers are reluctant to put the effort into improving are not 'culture'. Its called indifference and laziness. Also pride. Remember how pride is the root of all evil...?

L.
Catholic is counter- cultural. It ISN'T all about US. If that is the extent of the knowledge of the faith displayed by parents, it totally explains schools like HCC. Read Miller's speech. (link posted earlier)

Dawn, I wouldn't bother individually addressing the 'complaints' from people who haven't listened to you talk. You have made it available on your site, and some commenters remind me of the advice for chid-rearing I receive from my well-intentioned older kids. They mean well, but they don't know much about it. They know about BEING a kid, which is not the same thing.

Ultimately, those GRADE 12 kids will want to be adults. Isn't that supposed to be happening now? Aren't any of these people planning a future life? You know....progress?

The whole 'tribe' excuse is stunningly short-sighted. This 'loyalty' is part of the problem of spending all your time with the same demographic. You don't learn, or want , to relate to others.( And they ask homeschoolers about socialization!!) These students have not learned an appreciation for others. They are stuck in a behavior pattern that they should have grown out of in junior high, when they should have developed some reasoning skills, and they should have been able to start evaluating their experiences in relation to the Tradition (that apparantly hasn't been) handed down. They value themselves.Only. This is not a virtue, it is a failure to pass on Christian/Catholic ethos and culture.
lwestin | Homepage | 05.04.08 - 10:02 am | #

Pansy et al, your comments on the rude behaviour of some of the students are fair enough, but the point of the talks on chastity was to reach them, not alienate them. It appears that the method Dawn has chosen may not be the most effective tool for doing so.

I don't know, of course, because I wasn't there. I do know from my own experience of lecturing that heavy irony does not go down well with students. It reads as sarcasm and condescension, even if one intended nothing of the kind.

It's different when you're lecturing to a group of people who are your peers in age and experience, particularly when you're giving this kind of talk. They choose to go see you; they're not under orders to be there.

I suspect that for conveying this kind of message to high-school students, a seminar-style presentation, one that allowed some kind of dialogue with them, with perhaps a priest present, might be more effective. Might not be practical, though. I don't know.
alias clio | 05.04.08 - 10:27 am | #

with perhaps a priest present,

That would certainly be ideal. None of the Catholic schools at which I spoke had a single priest or religious on staff.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 05.04.08 - 10:48 am | #

Oh my goodness. Look, Canada is NOT the United States. Our Catholic schools are NOT your "parochial" schools. They are NOT run by the local parish. You can NOT judge them by the state of the uniform. The parish priest looks in when he has time, usually to say Mass and hear confessions. We are a majority group in Canada, not a minority group, as in the USA.

Canada has a different culture from the United States. This is why Canadian kids abroad keep going on about it. We are like Austrians correcting people who think they're German. Ask an Austrian what he/she thinks of Germany. Stand back.

Thousands upon thousands of Canadian Catholic kids come from Catholic homes with a mum and dad, brothers and sisters, and grandparents nearby. They go to Mass from the time they are born, and keep on going until their rebellious years, if they have them. Many of those who stop going to church drift back when they get married.

In Canada, Catholic kids tend to go to Catholic schools, which means they are catechized, however well or poorly, from the ages of 4 to 18. They are taught about chastity, marriage, confession, forgiveness, redemption, justice and service. They have heard the pro-life arguments. They are in their very bones and blood. If they rebel against them, they know they are among the minority of Catholics.

They are well-fed. Their houses are clean. They are, in the main, good kids who want to grow up, get a respectable and meaningful job, and marry the love of their lives and have at least one child. They are unlikely to become promiscuous. They are unlikely to chase rock stars. They are already well-fortified against making Dawn's sad mistakes.

They tend to go to universities close to home. We don't have "status" universities. Almost all of our universities are publically funded, and there are few if any sports scholarships. Thus, we do not have the confusing and lonely rupture with home so many American students do. The experiences of freshmen at toney American Catholic colleges like Boston College and Notre Dame are NOT much like the experiences of Catholic kids at St. Michael's (Toronto)or St. Francis Xavier (Halifax).

There are people who need Dawn's message, but they are not necessarily kids who are doing fine, thanks to their parents, their nearby extended families, their teachers and a healthy distaste for the "skankiness" of Britney Spears and other American pop idols. In fact, the American "tell all" style is something that Canadian kids don't much like. Having sex with a lot of guys is one thing--it happens, they guess. Going around telling everybody about it is another.

Finally, talking to Ontario Catholic kids is completely different from talking to Ontario adults. I've don a lot of adult ed, so I thought talking to Ontario Catholic kids about writing, as I was once invited to do, would be a piece of cake. All those kids were there volutarily, and to my chagrin, most of their eyes glazed.

But their teachers LOVED me. They laughed at my jokes. They flocked to me afterwards. And I realized that teenagers need an entirely different approach. I don't know what it is. Maybe an Ontario high school teacher could explain it to me.

I really hope all you foreigners will give these Ontario Catholic kids a break. And I hope you look beyond their slang and spelling (which is about teen culture, not the quality of education in my province) to really read in charity how they felt about Dawn's presentation and later comments about them.
Seraphic Single | Homepage | 05.04.08 - 11:54 am | #

Seraphic Single:
They tend to go to universities close to home. We don't have "status" universities. Almost all of our universities are publically funded, and there are few if any sports scholarships. Thus, we do not have the confusing and lonely rupture with home so many American students do. The experiences of freshmen at toney American Catholic colleges like Boston College and Notre Dame are NOT much like the experiences of Catholic kids at St. Michael's (Toronto)or St. Francis Xavier (Halifax).

A resounding Amen to that. As a Western Canadian, I don't actually know many people who've gone to a university outside their home city. There are a few, but they were all academic high fliers, who could get the scholarships necessary. Most students in my home city don't move out of their parents' houses to attend university. It'd just be way too expensive. Dorm life is for rural kids, who don't have any option but to pay the big bucks.

It certainly makes a huge difference in university culture, I think, when half the student body is living with family. The general pattern among Catholic university students I've seen is that they go to university, and leave home when they finish their studies. A lot of them get married then, as a survey of my own friends shows. It's an atmosphere much more conducive to stability.
Eileen R | 05.04.08 - 12:15 pm | #

Catholic is counter- cultural. It ISN'T all about US. If that is the extent of the knowledge of the faith displayed by parents, it totally explains schools like HCC.

Alas, no, it doesn't. Remember, not all seeds fall on fertile ground. The bad manners and insensitivity displayed by some (not all) of the HCC students do NOT reflect Catholic values, and I don't think any Catholic, anywhere would say they do. And think (I hope!) most would accept/condone something like swearing as "cultural."

Also, there is a very subtle but important distinction between what I said -- "Catholic culture is about all of us." -- and how you refuted it -- "It ISN'T all about US."

I agree it is not "all about us" -- my different placement of the word "about" meant that I intended to say it is a culture that INCLUDES ALL of us, of various degrees of devoutness, with our mortal sins, our interfaith, unconsecrated marriages and our gay godparents. It is not just a haven for saints, but a refuge for sinners with every human failing imaginable.

How would some of the more ill-mannered HCC students turn out if they had attended public schools instead? Some might be no different -- the messaage is obviously not getting through to everyone -- but I daresay some would be a lot worse.
L. | Homepage | 05.04.08 - 2:03 pm | #

Typo -- deleted a key word -- meant to say, "And think (I hope!) most would NOT accept/condone something like swearing as 'cultural.'"
L. | Homepage | 05.04.08 - 2:04 pm | #

Having only heard Dawn speak in posted video clips and on her EWTN television appearance, I always thought that what made her presentations meaningful was her forthrightness and authenticity. I never got the impression that she was trying to entertain or 'sell' anything, or that she was overly practiced or rehearsed. I always thought that she was simply speaking from her heart about her faith and how it has changed her understanding that the path to true joy is in living a morally good life.

Maybe this genuine style of raw honesty is too much for a captive audience of sensitive high school kids looking to be entertained or emotionally moved by a speaker. Then again, perhaps somewhere within the mob mentality of the hallway and cafetorium there are individual students who will take what Dawn said to heart and mind, recognize her sincerity, and apply it to their lives...if not today, then sometime in the future when they are in need. Hopefully, as Bender suggests above, some of these students remain here to continue the discussion...not about their school...but about seeking true joy through a virtuous life.

It is not whether they liked or accepted Dawn's speech, or even that they perceived some grievance from the later blog comments, which I (and I suspect many) found troublesome. It was rather the lack of prudence and charity in the original outbursts by those certain students that was so noteworthy. There is nothing worthy of praise in what originally transpired in the school hallways and then spewed out into public. Nothing that has been said since, by students or adults, as a defense or an excuse for such shortcomings in virtue has been very compelling. The "break" these students need is to understand that by abandoning these virtues, justice becomes frailty and courage becomes foolhardiness. To not acknowledge this error, or to try to minimize its importance, is unfair to all those students who try and act and converse in a dignified virtuous manner.
Mr Sammo | Homepage | 05.04.08 - 2:06 pm | #

"Many of the HCCSS girls who have defended themselves here take their Catholicism seriously. I rolled my kilt and took my Catholicism seriously."

Am i allowed to say "I smoked weed and took my Catholicism seriously", because I have a few libertarian friends who may be interested in the t-shirt.

You know, now that "Porn Stars for Jesus" ministry suddenly sorta makes sense. I gotta consult them weed-smoking orthodox Catholics first though to be sure.

"My own experience is that a lot of teenagers don't get irony at all."

I agree completely. If these kids invoke having read "1984" as justifying the sophistication behind their two-minute hates, then it is a sure sign that Paul Rudd levels of irony are light years beyond their capacity.

Didn't you know, Dawn, that irony is for college kids? Its, like, the first class they take once they set foot on campus. Along with the ones that teach them stuff like "Post-modernism" and how to cutely say "Dad, Where's My Tuition?" These kids probably watch South Park and think that its a cartoon show about a bunch of young potty-mouths.

Of course, one can still fail at Irony 101. Kinda ironic, really.

"The whole 'tribe' excuse is stunningly short-sighted. This 'loyalty' is part of the problem of spending all your time with the same demographic. You don't learn, or want , to relate to others."

I agree. To say that your blood runs Black and Gold, or Gray, or Red, or Irish Green (heyo!) is not only myopic, it is something that often subverts reason in favor of the emotional high generated by such loyalties. BTW, my blood runs Red, White and Blue, and These Colors Don't Run, and *hit with irony*...ah, darn it...jingoism....
JonathanR. | 05.04.08 - 2:31 pm | #

It is not whether they liked or accepted Dawn's speech, or even that they perceived some grievance from the later blog comments, which I (and I suspect many) found troublesome. It was rather the lack of prudence and charity in the original outbursts by those certain students that was so noteworthy.

Well, I agree that the comments some students made after the fact were troubling. But I imagine that Dawn does want to reach students when she talks to them, or she would scarcely put herself through such a demanding exercise. It could be that she was just unlucky, on this occasion. Or it could be that her approach needs to be modified for a younger audience.

It's wise to remember that the young are never at ease when hearing of the sexual experiences, however modestly recounted, of a person of their parents' generation.
alias clio | 05.04.08 - 2:32 pm | #

JonathonR, did you really mean to equate a girl rolling up her kilt to "Porn Stars for Jesus?"

This 'loyalty' is part of the problem of spending all your time with the same demographic.

Yes, but it's very hard to do anything about this, if you're seeking a peaceful, stable secure life in the same place. It is very difficult to both broaden your demographic and yet shield your children from specific influences of the broader world.
L. | Homepage | 05.04.08 - 2:40 pm | #

L.

That was my point. HCC does not reflect Catholic values...yet it IS supposedly a Catholic school.

For fertile ground you need fertilizer. The school and the parents need to change something.

Catholic culture is OPEN to all of us. That is not the same as saying ' we are Canadian, our way of living Catholic is different' or 'we have a different culture, therefore our behavior is acceptable to us.' We are free to live Catholic culture if we choose. It includes us in the unity of Christ. It is totally Christ centered.

SS. You have a lot of 'info' about who Americans' are. It sounds suspiciously like the kind of tripe put out by the media. Real Americans are a better source. Don't think so little of Canadians that you have to excuse their lack of Catholic culture and deplorable communication skills by saying 'But we're Canadian! What do you expect! We're not American, you know!' It's pathetic.
lwestin | Homepage | 05.04.08 - 2:52 pm | #

Just a reminder to everyone: Please be civil to your fellow commenters. I may have allowed more than a few ad hominems here that are directed at myself (and not just from the HCC students, alas), but that doesn't mean youse guys and gals should be free and easy with the slings and arrows at one another. Your cooperation is appreciated.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 05.04.08 - 3:00 pm | #

Once again, this only goes to show how much of a "family" we Catholics truly are. We have our civil discussions, and we have our knock-down drag out fights. We say nice things, and we allow our comments to get rather heated at times, and occasionally go over the line. Just like a "real" family. But at the end of the day, we must remember that we are all brothers and sisters, and embrace one another in love.

To all you HCC students out there -- this ain't the first time that discussions here have gotten intense. There is great diversity of thought amongst the commenters in these pages -- from one end of the idelogical and/or religious spectrums to the other. And we all have our virtues, and we all have our faults. Just like the members of any family.

Generally, we should try to play nice, and we are properly yelled at when we do not, which should prompt us to say we're sorry and shake hands. We are a family, despite all our differences. And that really shows how much of a miracle the Catholic Church is.
Bender | Homepage | 05.04.08 - 3:43 pm | #

Amen, Bender. :)
L. | Homepage | 05.04.08 - 3:51 pm | #

Ditto--I mean, amen!
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 05.04.08 - 3:54 pm | #

Thought for further discussion/reflection:

Having taken part in my share of comment box and message board heated discussions, I've noticed that the vast majority of comments do not look toward the Bible, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, or Church teaching...instead they turn into skirmishes with logical, modern arguments.

In general, the arguments I've been in look no different than secular arguments, except they contain a Catholic subject as the genesis for series of arguments.

Is this a failure on the part of us Catholics? Shouldn't we lead each other into reflection, prayer, and study? And if so, how can we do so without simply using them as arrows?
Joe G. | 05.04.08 - 5:43 pm | #

Amen again as well, Bender.
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 05.04.08 - 7:19 pm | #

Well, Joe G., some of us aren't Catholic. :)

Also, the initial comments from the student were so emotion-laden with an absolute absence of logic, a little water needed to be thrown on the fire.

I am pleased to see several of the students come back with an acnowledgment of wrongdoing and an ability to rise above rank emotionalism and use reason in addition to emotion.

As for the adults who keep trying to make excuses for these students, they are not doing them any favors. As children get older, they need to learn how to accept responsibility for their behavior.

It is a hard but necessarily lesson to learn how to say you're sorry when you've done something wrong without at the same time trying to justify your behavior. "I'm sorry, but..." just doesn't cut it. It's one of the most useful things to learn in getting along with your fellow humans.

"I was wrong. I'm sorry." Period, end of story. You'd be amazed how many people are ready and willing to forgive you when you can manage that.
Amy K. | 05.04.08 - 8:04 pm | #

I am also sure Dawn wants to reach students when she talks to them, but I am not sure her purported 'failure' in this situation is a fait accompli. We are only privy to what those students who choose to post here wish to tell us about how they feel or think. We do not know what lies in the hearts and minds of those students who are silent to us. We also do not know how those who reacted negatively at this time to the quality of the talk will react in the future when the message of the talk may become critically important to them.

Maybe this resulting discussion over the student's discouraging reactions and those certain improper comments may in the end prove more positive than if they had all left the building heaping accolades on the talk, only to forget about it the next day. Even if there is some disappointment and recrimination over this event, there is still great hope as well. I think we see some glimmer of that hope in those students who have participated in the discussion.
Mr Sammo | Homepage | 05.04.08 - 9:07 pm | #

Mr Sammo, in light of your 9:07 p.m. comment, you might be interested in the following comment that was left on another post tonight but is more apropos this thread:

I am deeply disappointed and embarrassed over the recent blog about HCC. You had visited my school during this week and I was so shocked by the comments that were placed on your blog. It deeply saddened me and revealed a very confused teenage society in Canada. It is clear that NOT all Canadian youth acts this way and I do believe the internet allows for many cowards who hide behind words. However, what does this tell us about our Catholic institutions? What does this tell us about our Catholic youth? Now many of us are not practicing Catholics, but regardless when it comes to sex I find us all in agreement that sex isn't a big deal.
But really it is!

We have grown up in such a media polluted society that if you are not telling jokes or flashing pictures we just don't get the message. Classrooms are filled with videos about sex, but that is because teachers have given up on us. We know it all! Yet, we really know so little.
I'm not sure what the answer is to helping teenagers talk about sex? Maybe a lot of the blame falls on parents who simply stop parenting when it comes to sex. They throw it in the hands of teachers. When they cannot relate to us or have little time the preasure falls on our Catholic School system. Perhaps parents should be present at these presentations. Perhaps parents should be reading their childs blogs and asking questions...where are these Catholic parents?
I know where mine are...ignoring me in another room!

Who's to blame? | | Email | 05.04.08 - 8:04 pm | #

Dawn Eden | Homepage | 05.04.08 - 9:19 pm | #

'JonathonR, did you really mean to equate a girl rolling up her kilt to "Porn Stars for Jesus?'

No, I equated a skirt-cutting (more legs, yeah!) orthodox Catholic with Porn Stars for Jesus. Hey, great things start with small beginnings. The new age poster on my door says so. I also have another one that says "Hang in There", which was probably meant for Catholic School Girl Skirts.
JonathanR. | 05.04.08 - 9:26 pm | #

If anyone would like to respond to the "Who's to blame?" comment, I have posted it on my blog, so you can start a new comment thread there.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 05.04.08 - 9:32 pm | #

Oh, I forgot to put a smiley on my previous post. No wonder people think I'm such a donkey.

"Classrooms are filled with videos about sex, but that is because teachers have given up on us. We know it all! Yet, we really know so little.
I'm not sure what the answer is to helping teenagers talk about sex? Maybe a lot of the blame falls on parents who simply stop parenting when it comes to sex. "

The whole entry actually makes a lot of sense. Maybe we really have taken to heart too many of the sins of our fathers.
JonathanR. | 05.04.08 - 9:37 pm | #

Lwestin, just so you know, I lived in the USA for a solid two years, have American relatives, and had American ancestors dating from to the 17th century to the mid-20th. I've had ample time (and material) to contrast and compare. Media, schmedia.

"Theology," said the great Canadian theologian Bernard Lonergan, "mediates between a culture and the significance and role of religion in that matrix."

Although Catholic doctrine doesn't change, the way Catholics live their Catholicism is influenced by the local culture. Modesty is doctrine, but what modesty entails is determined by the local culture. In Rome, I can't walk into a church with bare shoulders. In Canada in July, women think nothing of it. At a Tridentine Mass, I'd wear a mantilla and put my hair in a bun. At Novo Ordo masses, my hair flies free. In my all-girls' school, I rolled my kilt because it was the local custom. But I never wore a short skirt to Mass, where short skirts were certainly not the local custom. And I've never rolled a skirt since I left high school. I wore jeans to university like everybody else. One of the Church Fathers cited by Thomas Aquinas in his discussion of apparel forbids MEN to wear shorts. And yet it's never occured to me to doubt the serious Catholicism of men or women who wear shorts. Incidentally, in the London archdiocese, where liveth the kids of HCCSS, the girls' kilts have shorts built in.

Marijuana is more or less decriminalized in Canada. If I were suffering from a chronic illness, the pain of which marijuana could allieviate, I could get a license to buy marijuana from the government supplier. And then, yes, I would be a serious Catholic who smoked weed.
Seraphic Single | Homepage | 05.04.08 - 11:02 pm | #

Bender, good job.

Dawn: With love: I agree with some of the observations about how high school-aged people do not get irony, and also the discomfort with hearing about sex from older people. Straightforward honesty also plays better to much smaller groups, as I found when teaching moral theology and arranging speakers for both settings.
corita | 05.04.08 - 11:31 pm | #

Incidentally, in the London archdiocese, where liveth the kids of HCCSS, the girls' kilts have shorts built in.

To paraphrase the immortal words of the Royal Teens, "They wear short shorts!"
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 05.04.08 - 11:53 pm | #

SS

You express perfectly my impression of Canadian Catholicism. (in general)

One of my kin expresses it this way - ' it's good enough'. I'm not sure how well that serves his 'journey'.

pax
lwestin | Homepage | 05.05.08 - 4:39 am | #

"At Novo Ordo masses, my hair flies free. In my all-girls' school, I rolled my kilt because it was the local custom. "

Ahh, good. Makes me feel better about those gang signs we passed off as local custom. After all, who were those chapel-bound priests to argue with us guys on the street eh? Viva la Raza and all that.

"And then, yes, I would be a serious Catholic who smoked weed."

Alright, I'll tell 'em they need a disease first. Does that excuse work with dope?

Just asking. :)

Anyway, last time I checked, the Church is at war with this "Dictatorship of Relativism". I see that local custom seems to be the foremost battleground. After all, Hernan Cortez didn't get much out of appreciating "local custom" now did he?

"One of the Church Fathers cited by Thomas Aquinas in his discussion of apparel forbids MEN to wear shorts. "

Maybe somebody mistranslated something. Are you sure it wasn't Jorts? Because those are ugly. They ought to be forbidden. :) Like MEN and Speedos.

Edited By Siteowner
JonathanR. | 05.05.08 - 12:44 pm | #

JonathanR., I know you're not being serious, so I hesitate to answer you seriously, but when I think of building a Catholic community around "local custom," I think of Maximilian Kolbe in Japan:

Despite his passionate zeal in the cause of Mary, Fr Maximilian proved to be a wise missionary. He did not attempt to impose Western ideas on the Japanese. He respected their national customers and looked for what was good in Buddhism and Shintoism. He entered into dialogue with Buddhist priests and some of them became his friends. (from catholic-pages.com)

Our parish in Tokyo was the Franciscan Chapel Center in Roppongi. If you go to the vigil mass there on Saturday evening, you often see young women, mostly Filipinas, who are clearly dressed for work in the Roppongi "entertainment" district. (My daughter would ask me, "Why are those ladies dressed like that?") The FCC had a ministry reaching out to the ones in trouble (with many touching stories of faith and redemption), but as far as I know, no one ever asked any of them to please wear longer skirts to mass. They were welcome as they were, and they knew it -- that is why they came.
L. | Homepage | 05.05.08 - 1:48 pm | #

My dad had a story to tell of the late sixies, in Ontario, Canada.

His girlfriend at that time was Catholic and wanted to go into a Church. She was wearing a long tunic shirt (at least mini-skirt length) and pants. She thought it wrong to wear pants in Church, so she removed the pants before going in.

If I remember the story properly, she never did figure out why my dad found this so funny.

I also remember my mom talking about how standards of modesty had *improved* from her teen and young adult years (late 60's early 70's in Ontario).

I can also say that it took outside commentary before I as a teen realized that the guys around me were noticing my development. Unfortunately in my case it took the form of inappropriate comments (nothing like sexual harassment as a young teen to encourage cover-everything clothing). It's actually, from that perpective, vaguely encouraging to think that these girls may actually have no clue of the effect their method of dressing may actually have on the hormonal male.
Emily Bell | 05.05.08 - 3:14 pm | #

"Catholic culture is about all of us."
Ok, I suppose, if I knew what Catholic culture meant. I have never regarded Catholicism as a culture. It is a religion -- a way of life defined by a faith that includes specific beliefs that are not optional. That way of life manifests itself somewhat differently in different societies with different cultures, but the specific beliefs are transcultural.
And it is true that the Church is a hospital for sinners. But all too many Catholics seem to think that the purpose of the hospital is to treat the sinner by defining away the sin. A Catholic school that equates God with the gods is not Catholic in any meaningful sense.
Mike Petrik | 05.05.08 - 3:40 pm | #

A Catholic school that equates God with the gods is not Catholic in any meaningful sense.

That depends on the definition of "equate" -- see my comment about Maximilian Kolbe above. Surely he never wavered in his belief that Catholicism was the one true faith, but he managed to respect and see the good in non-Christian religions. I am personally very happy that my children learn about other religions at their school -- not in their religion classes, but in social studies.

That way of life manifests itself somewhat differently in different societies with different cultures, but the specific beliefs are transcultural.

Agreed -- I, too, have trouble thinking of Catholicism as a "culture," and can't wrap my head around what a "cultural Catholic" really is, since I have enough trouble figuring out what it means to be Catholic at all.
L. | Homepage | 05.05.08 - 4:00 pm | #

L.,
I think equates means equates. Of course, it is good to learn about other religions, and respect for all religions is an important Catholic value. But the student's post above suggests something quite different, at least to me.
As for figuring out what it means to be a Catholic, I would suggest that you start with the Catechism. Catholics believe what the Catechism teaches. This is not to say that Catholics uniformly follow what the Catechism teaches -- we are, after all, sinners, and our failings alone should make us patient and forgiving of others. But there is an important difference between treating each other in a way that is tolerant of each other's moral shortcomings versus using tolerance as a pretext to dismiss such shortcomings as unimportant cultural artifacts.
I have no problem describing myself as a Catholic. I believe all of what the Church authoritatively teaches -- without exception, notwithstanding my stubborn failure to conform my actions to my conscience. I'm a sinner and I have little problem getting along well with other sinners; I do get impatient though with folks who are busy trying to conform their conscience, even their Catholic faith, to their predilections, so as to excuse their actions. Catholic schools should present environments hostile to such sophistry; they should properly form and inform consciences and provide young Catholics a solid understanding of our faith. Without this, their putative Catholicity seems rather pointless.
Mike Petrik | 05.05.08 - 4:22 pm | #

I have no problem describing myself as a Catholic. I believe all of what the Church authoritatively teaches -- without exception, notwithstanding my stubborn failure to conform my actions to my conscience.

Lucky you -- believing is not so easy for everyone. I always say that for some people, faith is simply belief, whereas for others, it is the conscious suspension of disbelief.

I have no trouble describing myself as "Catholic," either, though I would never presume to call myself a devout Catholic, or one in good standing.

If someone acknowleges doubting a single Catholic teaching, does this mean they can't call themselves Catholic, even if they believe everything else? How about two doubts? Five? At one point does the "Catholic" description become meaningless? I think that question can only be answered by an individual person following his/her own conscience -- although there are plenty of people who are happy to answer it for everyone!
L. | Homepage | 05.05.08 - 5:30 pm | #

L.,
You make good comments and ask good questions, and I'll try to be helpful to the extent I'm able, though I'm not an expert and I'm sure you'll find my effort wanting.
First, I would say that to a large extent belief is like love, it is a decision rather than a feeling.
Second, regarding doubt I do think that the types of doubt that are permitted depend on the relevant level of teaching within the Magisterium. I am not an expert on this, but I do think that those teachings that are included within the Catechism requires a certain amount of submission of the will. One does not need to understand to accept. If one does not believe that the Church is protected from error on matters of faith and morals, then one reduces the Church to nothing more than an aesthetic preference. More importantly, it seems rather silly to consider oneself a Catholic if one does not believe in the single teaching that most separates it from other Christian sects.
Third, while appeal to conscience is a good thing, the principle of primacy of conscience is a Catholic teaching that is all too often misunderstood. You might want to read up on it a bit -- I think you'll find it very interesting. In recent decades that teaching has been misinterpreted by some to be a justification for believing pretty much anything. There are rules of engagment here, and they are important.
In terms of who can fairly call himself a Catholic, there are two common definitions -- one more descriptive and one more prescriptive. The former would be "one who is received into the Catholic Church by Baptism and has not formally apostatized"; the latter would be "one who has been received into the Catholic Church by Baptism and subjectively assents to Her teachings." While both definitions are useful in different contexts, the former definition presents some serious difficulties, since it could include atheists and others whom most people would agree are not Catholics in any practical or serious sense. Without regard to which definition is more useful, one thing is certain -- it is absolutely not simply a subjective test. One is no more a Catholic because one thinks he is, than he is a fighter pilot because he thinks he is.
Mike Petrik | 05.05.08 - 6:14 pm | #

Thank you, Mike Petrik -- I was actually asking rhetorically, but appreciate that you took the time to answer.

I agree it on the face of of, it DOES seem "rather silly to consider oneself a Catholic if one does not believe in the single teaching that most separates it from other Christian sects." But life doesn't always make sense, and can be downright absurd sometimes.

As for your fighter pilot metaphor at the end there -- while I agree it makes logical sense, I think its usefulness is limited because it compares two entirely different missions!

Okay, I've already vexed Dawn enough this week hijacking cold comment threads, so I'm going to stop. Thanks again -- peace to you.
L. | Homepage | 05.05.08 - 6:38 pm | #

And peace to you, L.
Mike Petrik | 05.05.08 - 7:14 pm | #

As an expat Canadian living in a small minority Catholic community, I pray for the day we stop importing Ontario principals for our school. The Americans have better access to good faithful teachers. Numbers alone could accomplish this, but also their Catholic culture is much less repressed and more knowledgeable (in general) than the Catholic community in Canada. The difference is pretty obvious from the outside.
In Canada its still a very much uphill battle to reclaim the church after years of soft soap and bad catechesis, as well as outright dissent. Our generation are pretty lukewarm Catholics, and its going to take some awareness and desire for truth on the part of parents to make it better for our kids.

Maybe this thread will accomplish some of that, by putting the 'result' of years of neglect in our face .
lwestin | Homepage | 05.03.08 - 2:29 pm |

I agree with your post lwestin. I work as a librarian in a Catholic school that has a public library attached. I have two children in Catholic hs in Ontario. The schools are pitiful. Most of the kids don't go to church. The liturgies at the school are pap and mostly nonsense with very little relation to the Mass. The girls mostly dress like sluts and many schools have banned kilts because they can't enforce their length. They get no help from the parents who don't seem to recognize that their little bambi's look like street walkers. It's an embarrassment for the most part to be recognized as a Catholic student because of the kilt issue alone.
The best thing for the Catholic schools in ONtario would be to defund the entire lot. They are filled with gorgeous auditoriums, state of the art science and computer labs, Olympic style tracks and gymns and kids who can't properly make the sign of the Cross or say the Our Father.
bugedoutlibrarian | 05.06.08 - 2:15 pm | #

Thank you Dawn for taking the time to meet with these children. When I was in Catholic high school in Ontario, I might not have been so forthrightly antagonistic toward your lecture, but I probably would have ignored it nonetheless.

I think that the expressions of hatred towards you and the Christ's message are in actuality a sign of hope to the rest of us. In high school I never had a single moment in which an educator presented the Church's authentic teaching on sexuality, and I doubt many of the students of Holy Cross have either. You challenged them, and they reacted. That's a lot more than anyone else has obviously done for these kids before.
Colm | Homepage | 05.12.08 - 12:59 pm | #

Thank you very much for that and your other comment, Colm.
Dawn Eden | 05.12.08 - 3:55 pm | #

I am a student at one of the London schools you spoke at.

I think that the agression you encountered in the Canadian schools is largely a result of the different role faith plays in a Canadian Catholic school than an American one. The Catholic board allows non-Catholic students and while there are still many people who are 'technically' Catholic, the great majority are unpractising. There are a lot of ways to participate in religious activities in my school but they can also be easily avoided and are by many students. It's because of this atmosphere that the strong conservative Christian approach of your talk did not go over well with the student body. While we are no "uncivilized" as previous commentors said, the language of biblical references and living our lives for God is not the language that we speak. The arguments you made for chastity that were centrally rooted in Christian doctrine are not only unrelatable to most Canadian teens, they also can feel condesending. While I am sure that was not your intention, I know that most of my peers couldn't get behind faith based chastity. Chastity speakers we have had in the past have focused more on the personal and physical harm of sex (as opposed to a faith based approach) in a way teens could relate to and they went over well. One such speaker was Pam Stenzel for example.

While I know that faith is a large part of your journey with chasity, it was clear in my school that your message rung hollow with a secular crowd. By aiming your talk at Christians you are literally 'preaching to the converted'. I think that you could benifit from adapting your message to be universal to all teens and not to the select few.
londonstudent | 05.22.08 - 5:52 pm | #

Thanks for the insights, londonstudent. Ann Clarke, who booked me to speak in the schools, told me that she chose me because she thought the students would benefit from hearing about my conversion, so I used more religious language than I would have if I were speaking at secular schools.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 05.22.08 - 11:46 pm | #

I agree with you. I need someone like yourself to help run my new organization, New Feminist Order of Middlesex County.

I am from Strathroy, Ontario and I am moving back in Sept/08. I am in Halifax, NS now. I so far have a facebook site which has the same name. I am having problems enlisting people for their own cause! If you could help me that would be great.
THNX
Justin Taylor | Homepage | 08.23.08 - 9:03 pm | #