I am not defending Gilder here, but maybe Gilder deserves a chance to defend himself. Is this really what he says? It seems too crazy to be true.Forgive me for thinking that he might have been mis-characterized just a LEETLE bit by the Feminist brigade. I haven't read him, but it sounds too retrograde to be believable, unless he really is a knuckle dragging cave-man.


W
warren | Homepage | 08.06.07 - 11:50 pm | #

It's the "P.S." that has me really excited. I don't mean to push you, but when can we expect to see "Get Out of My Bed, Get Into My Heart?" Now that the Harry Potter series is done (at least until J.K. Rowling gets the urge to write again), I need an upcoming book to look forward to. I can't wait to read it!

Oh... wait. Will this mean that posting on your blog will diminish while you write your next book, like it did with "Thrill?" If so, darn.
Chris Chan | 08.07.07 - 2:16 am | #

Supplementary Material for the Broadway-deprived:

DELAIDE: At Wannamaker's and Saks and Klein's, a lesson I've been taught
You can't get alterations on a dress you haven't bought
SARAH: At any vegetable market from Borneo to Nome
You musn't squeeze a melon 'till you get the melon home

ADELAIDE: You simply gotta gamble
SARAH: You get no guarantee
ADELAIDE: Now doesn't that kind of apply to you and I?
SARAH: You and me!
ADELAIDE: Whatever.

ADELAIDE: Why not?
SARAH: Why not what?

ADELAIDE: Marry the man today
Trouble though he may be
Much as he likes to play
Crazy and wild and free
BOTH: Marry the man today, rather than sigh in sorrow
ADELAIDE: Marry the man today and change his ways tomorrow

SARAH: Marry the man today (ADELAIDE: Marry the man today)
SARAH: Maybe he's leaving town (ADELAIDE: Maybe he's leaving town)
SARAH: Don't let him get away (ADELAIDE: Don't let him get away)
SARAH: Hurry and track him down (ADELAIDE: Counterattack him and-)
BOTH: Marry the man today, give him the girlish laughter
SARAH: Give him your hand today and save the fist for after

ADELAIDE: Slowly introduce him to the better things
Respectable, conservative, and clean
SARAH: Reader's Digest
ADELAIDE: Guy Lombardo
SARAH: Rogers Peete
ADELAIDE: Golf!
SARAH: Galoshes!
ADELAIDE: Ovaltine!

BOTH: But marry the man today, handle it meek and gently
ADELAIDE: Marry the man today and train him subsequently

SARAH: Carefully expose him to domestic life
And if he ever tries to stray from you
Have a pot roast
ADELAIDE: Have a headache
SARAH: Have a baby
ADELAIDE: Have two!
SARAH: Six!
ADELAIDE: Nine!
SARAH: Oh!

BOTH: Marry the man today, rather than sigh in sorrow
Marry the man today and change his ways--
ADELAIDE: And change his ways--
SARAH: And change his ways--
ADELAIDE: And change his ways--
SARAH: And change his ways--
BOTH: (BIG FINISH) Tomorrow!
Robert N G | Homepage | 08.07.07 - 8:06 am | #

I'm glad to see your post here.

Not because I have an opinion on Gilder. I haven't read him, and I wasn't even aware of him until now. But, rather, because I really feel the male aspect of this topic, chastity, is ignored. You've come a long ways here, in this post, towards changing that.

I've felt for a long time that the current sexual atmosphere, which encourages men to feel that they must be having sex, is as destructive to men as to women, perhaps more destructive in some ways.

Emotionally, in spite of those who will state the contrary (including psychologist), men make an emotional commitment, whether they want to or not, just like women, by having sex. It may be weaker, but it is there, and they must then go on to defeat it if they are not to follow through with it.

The fact that they must defeat it, means that they must pervert it. And that leads to the objectification of women which is a plague to men and women in our society.

As a bit of an aside, the comment about women initiating sex is quite correct. Women will pressure a man, and apply guilt, as they believe that a dating relationship must feature sex. When I was a college student, for example, I briefly dated a nice, Protestant, church going young woman who would seem to have had her head together. None the less, her friends all told her she should be having sex, and that there was something wrong as we weren't. It was a topic of conversation with them, and she really believed it. She later went on to have a disastrous marriage (thankfully not to me), and a string of other problems. The point, however, is that she applied pressure because she was under pressure to do what was "right" and "normal", when in fact it was far from right.
Yeoman | 08.07.07 - 8:32 am | #

I just followed the link to "Naked Under Clothes". Another excellent post.
Yeoman | 08.07.07 - 8:35 am | #

Yestereday I found two Playboy Special Edition magazines my 19 year old son was "reading." I well understand the temptation, in fact, I looked at the covers of both several times before throwing them in the trash. Only by the grace of God did did I not leisurely peruse the contents.
We all know the story behind Playboy, basically, a lecherous mans desire to manipulate women into being willing sexual partners, seductive and available at all times.
I wonder, though, is there any connection between what you have written about and the whole host of eager young women who line up to be exploited by all this? Do you have an opinion about it? Is this a desire for fame, or self-esteem, or money, or access to Hollywood, or what? It seems to me, and I don't want to be harsh here, that these young women are basically prostituting themselves for men to leer and lust over. I wonder if there has been any research done on the topic.
Mark | 08.07.07 - 9:11 am | #

Mark, I haven't studied the phenomenon, but I believe there has been research done on it by feminist writers such as Susan Brownmiller, Naomi Wolf, and Ariel Levy. Of the three, I've only read Levy and wouldn't recommend her due to her strong leftist bias, though she has some interesting observations. A more recent book, which I'm told is from a conservative perspective, is "Pornified."
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 08.07.07 - 9:19 am | #

Mark, excellent post, and right on the mark about Playboy and its imitators.

Playboy has long claimed to be pioneering, although it tends to follow, rather than lead, most trends, except for it's main point, which is that men should be able to bed any woman without consequences whenever they want to.

On that thesis, the magazine has been enormously successful. Indeed, its apparently a victim of its own success in that rival publications, without the veneer of any other supposed greater point, more than compete with it.

Playboy has been an enormous engine for destruction in that it's been very persuasive in focusing male attention on female anatomy, rather than on women themselves. It's thesis that sex should be without consequence has gone from being radical to now fully accepted by most people. The young women who, as you note, prostitute themselves in its pages, are praised as models and held up, by young men, as the models of beauty, when often their bodies are no longer natural, nor are they realistic images of average women. Women have largely accepted this bondage to imagery, and young women can be seen wearing shirts with the Playboy rabbit head image on them, essentially advertising themselves as cheap and easy.

A friend of mine, who has struggled with chastity as an adult, told me that even though he was raised in a Catholic home, his problems began when discovered his father's small collections of Playboy magazines as a boy. From there, he took his image of women, he claims, and it lead him to a lot of improper conduct. Married today, he is only now, in his late 30s, really realizing how it impacted him, and he struggles even now with the attraction to an unrealistic image.

A picture is worth a thousands words, as it is often noted. There are many efforts in this society to raise male awareness of female issues, and to bring females in to full equality in the workplace. However, as long as women will prostitute themselves in the form of images for use as, shall we admit it, masturbation aids, they will never fully be equal. The image is too powerful to overcome, and the message, that women want to make themselves available as sexual playthings for men, too destructive. All the more so if they accept that image themselves.
Yeoman | 08.07.07 - 9:28 am | #

Some of you all may have already seen this, but there's a great article about Playboy and Hugh Hefner that first appeared in the now-defunct Christian magazine Regeneration Quarterly. Here it is online at Godspy.
Susan B. | Homepage | 08.07.07 - 10:06 am | #

I'm not so sure that the emotional bond/commitment for men is weaker than that for women. It seems that, when it comes to break-ups, women are much more able to make a sharp break and simply walk away (and women seem to be more of the breakers, certainly they initiate more divorces), whereas men continue to feel an attachment. That does not come from some idea of ownership of women, as some of our feminist friends might suggest, but because men do form a very strong bond with those particular women they are with. Indeed, I would guess that studies would show that men are more likely to be suicidal from a break-up than are women.
Bender | Homepage | 08.07.07 - 10:14 am | #

"However, as long as women will prostitute themselves in the form of images for use as, shall we admit it, masturbation aids, they will never fully be equal."

Yeoman,
You made some thoughtful comments earlier about how men do make some emotional investment in non-marital sex - despite being bombarded with conflicting messages - and now this?

That they have no choice but to automatically associate, pejoratively, all women with Playboy centerfolds - as long as the latter exist?

You write here as though you believe men are permanently arrested at the callow teenage stage when they are exposed to soft porn.

I don't want to police anyone's private thoughts. But part of growing up is about learning the difference between image and reality.
Jody Tresidder | 08.07.07 - 10:18 am | #

When I was in high school and college, my mentors in church and youth group strongly taught that it was the job of men to be in charge of keeping dating/courting relationships chaste. This was not aimed to "put down" women, but rather to inspire men to fight for chastity.
Darren A. Jones | 08.07.07 - 10:19 am | #

Not to defend Playboy here, but spending a whole lot of time on it is like spending a lot of time studying the pornographic frescos at the brothels of Pompeii -- it is ancient history and the world has gone far, far beyond it.

Playboy had a couple of women per month (in comparatively discreet poses), but on the contemporary dominant medium -- the Internet -- one can find thousands upon thousands if not millions of pictures and movies of (mostly) women in pornographic poses (in all their gynecological glory) or engaging in hard-core sex. How many thousands or tens of thousands of different women who are or were engaged in the sex industry boggles the mind. And now the porn film industry is worried that they will be losing a lot of money because amatuers have discovered that they can upload their own pictures and homemade sex movies to various sites that use the same technology as You-Tube. Thousands, tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of women are and have been involved. Not all of the blame can be laid at the feet of Hefner or Flynt or the guys who produce "Girls Gone Wild" flasher movies or other exploiters or the people who purchase such products. We have become an exhibitionist, look-at-me, reality-TV society.
Bender | Homepage | 08.07.07 - 10:36 am | #

Mark brings up a great question:

I wonder, though, is there any connection between what you have written about and the whole host of eager young women who line up to be exploited by all this? .... It seems to me, and I don't want to be harsh here, that these young women are basically prostituting themselves for men to leer and lust over. I wonder if there has been any research done on the topic.

I'm not a researcher, so I'll share what I've observed, and let you draw your own conclusions.

With custom professional senior high portrait photo sessions, very attractive young women have a penchant for recreating what they see in their favorite magazines, right down to the latest designer clothes and seriously flirtatous poses.

With some girls, it's still innocent, but a little daring - to see if you have what it takes to pull off a killer photo that will wow your friends. So she seeks a photographer who can create that sexy "look".

The senior photo industry feeds this desire because capturing that "look" generates lots of money - multiple clothing changes, multiple locations and multiple poses generate big ticket orders. Professional photo conferences have lots of successful photographers showing others how to generate these orders.

One of the top senior photographers in the country laughed when he described his biggest sale of the year: his client, the daughter of a wealthy man, posed on her Mercedes convertable simulating intercourse with her latest boyfriend. She purchased a large canvas of the photo to hang in her room, to "stick it to daddy". The girl was looking for attention from her father. The photographer - a man old enough to be her father, obviously enjoyed making those photographs, and the money.

I was in the audience - I knew something was very wrong with that whole picture, and with the senior portrait industry. It actually changed the way I thought about the business, and what was happening to our kids.

Grabbing the attention of an older man is a very powerful thing. It's almost intoxicating for both - she desires the maturity and prestige elements of his attention and he is smitten with the youthful interest and if it is pushed, the adoration. Both are seeking to answer the question - "do I have what it takes?"

But both fail to look further down the road to answer the question - "where does this lead?"
Chris Arsenault | 08.07.07 - 10:51 am | #

"We have become an exhibitionist, look-at-me, reality-TV society."

Yes we have, Bender.

But it takes (at least!) two for exhibitionism to work.
Jody Tresidder | 08.07.07 - 10:52 am | #

My own experience is not so much that pornography causes one to look at women in the way they are depicted, but that it causes one not to see them at all. One becomes so focused on one's own fantasy life that one scarcely notices that anyone else is there.

In that sense, the old folk wisdom that masturbation makes you go blind is true.

When I was entering adolescence and my mother took it upon herself to buy me the SI Swimsuit Issue and to offer to buy me pornography, I was a little confused, because she also told me she didn't want me to get involved with girls and that it would be fine with her if I never married. Eventually it just seemed easier to go down the road of fantasy than to get involved in dating, or courtship or any of that.

But part of growing up is about learning the difference between image and reality.

Good point Jody. I think that's where I am personally: trying to grow up. I see that one can get blinded to reality by the image, and the world loses its color as a result.
Fallen Sparrow | Homepage | 08.07.07 - 10:53 am | #

Bender and Jody,

Part of growing up is distinguishing reality from fantasy, and I agree that Playboy isn't the worst of it. But in an age when surgery merely to enhance a persons sex appeal is common, and when we actually defend one class of pornography as relatively discreet, we have to concede that Playboys assault on decency, which commenced in the early 50s, was successful. When we classify the act of presenting yourself naked in order to arouse a distant male as discreet, we are perhaps making a distinction that ought not to be made. It's a pretty slippery slope, particularly as pornography struggles to get more and more graphic all the time, thereby making any prior depictions discreet in comparison.

It isn't that there aren't things that are worse, there are. And there were "girlie" magazines prior to Playboy. But Playboy changed how they were viewed, changing them from "dirty" to mainstream. And it remains the flagship for the sex without consequence view. That things have surpassed it isn't surprising, but inevitable.

It probably would come as a surprise to most Catholics that pornography is regarded as a mortal sin. It's so common, that few realize that (and therefore, for them, it wouldn't be). But what a change over time.
Yeoman | 08.07.07 - 10:59 am | #

I have very mixed feelings about the subject of human bodies being exposed in various forms of high and low art. I occasionally run into Internet porn by accident and find it revolting; Playboy I've seen from time to time and find it silly. But I find its words, and the "philosophy" promoted by its founder, far more offensive than the actual photos. I know it's a joke to say "I don't read Playboy; I just look at the pictures!" but it seems to me there's an element of sense in that line. Still, I do think that ubiquitous pornography is dangerous, and is one of the problems helping to ruin relations between men and women.

However, the beautiful and, it must be admitted, sexy paintings and sculpture in our art historical heritage seem to me to belong to a different category than this kind of tripe, in part because they can't really be used as aides to masturbation. But that's not the only reason. The beauty of the human nude seems to me a legitimate and worthy subject for the visual arts. I don't want to reject all erotic imagery as wrong.

p.s. Kurt Vonnegut once wrote in one of his novels about a young man who shows an older one a picture of a pretty unclothed girl, saying "look at this beautiful woman!" And the older one says, "Son, that's not a woman, that's a photograph." A point men need to bear in mind.
alias clio | Homepage | 08.07.07 - 10:59 am | #

Bender,

Not all of the blame can be laid at the feet of Hefner or Flynt or the guys who produce "Girls Gone Wild" flasher movies or other exploiters or the people who purchase such products. We have become an exhibitionist, look-at-me, reality-TV society.

True, but it was the Hefners and the Flynts who mainstreamed this sort of voyeurism/exhibitionism in the first place. I think there is value in examining how our society got this way. It may help us to figure out how to clean up this mess.
Susan B. | Homepage | 08.07.07 - 11:05 am | #

Jody said "I don't want to police anyone's private thoughts. But part of growing up is about learning the difference between image and reality."

Jody - that's the problem, IMHO most men have grown physically, but have not matured in other areas. But that's oversimplifying it - men have a very different visual stimulation that women simply don't have. It may have something to do with what is visible, and what is not. It is a matter of men policing their own thoughts.

Women sometimes find that visual aspect hard to believe, but any chaste man will tell you, it's hard work shutting down the projectors that play in your head, after seeing something you didn't need to see.

Ultimately, our ability to control those images, or willfully neglecting that control directly impacts reality. That's why men are genuinely interested in discussing chastity here on Dawn's blog and at her appearences.
Chris Arsenault | 08.07.07 - 11:06 am | #

Chris,

Oddly enough, I've had to do some "growing up" myself in terms of understanding the importance of visual stimulation and men. (Wow - that's come out badly!). What I mean, is that I accept your point, it's a good one, you made it well.

Fallen Sparrow,

I think beginning to realize that it's up to us to try looking at things differently is always the toughest step.

I'd like to add - tentatively - that your mother might have not understood how self-serving her intentions were re: you and fantasy images?

It sounds as if you were receiving a powerful endorsement for complicated reasons at quite the most vulnerable time?
Jody Tresidder | 08.07.07 - 11:31 am | #

A couple thoughts:

The idea that women have traditionally be "civilizers" of men is a historical fact. One honest look at history shows this to be true. The idea, though, that men cannot be chaste and therefore women have to force men to be chaste is garbage. Men have sacrificed themselves (in one way or another) for women in all of recorded history. That is, in fact, what differentiates a man from a boy - a man lives a life of sacrifice for others (especially the women in his life) and a boy lives only for himself. That's certainly as true with chastity as it is in every other part of life. Part of how women have traditionally helped in the "civilizing" of men is to hold them up to a high standard and to expect to be treated with dignity and respect. Part of the lie that is modern society is that women are the same as men, so men shouldn't treat them any differently, and that we should all be living for ourselves. It's little wonder that we have a society of immature, self-serving, confused and broken people as a result.

Regarding pornography, I find it mildly amusing that many women's solution to pornography is simply for men not to look. This over-simplification clearly demonstrates a complete lack of understanding in how men are created. As Chris states, men are wired visually when it comes to sex. All it takes is a couple accidental exposures to pornography when young and you can be hooked for life, if you don't work very, very hard to get away from it. There are lots of studies that show that pornography addiction is biochemically very similar to heroin addiction, and breaking it can be even harder. I am in no way saying the men must look at pornography, nor excusing those who do, but avoiding it is no small task, and living in a society literally saturated with pornographic images can make it *extremely* difficult to do so. This is one of those cases (getting back to the first point) where men are called to heroic virtue and sacrifice. When we ask why women would prostitute themselves by appearing in pornography, it's at least in part because what they're doing makes what we're trying to do (live chastely) that much more difficult, and we simply don't understand it. While men can't be excused for looking at pornography, women also can't be excused for appearing in it. We all have a part in this.
c | 08.07.07 - 11:49 am | #

"All it takes is a couple accidental exposures to pornography when young and you can be hooked for life, if you don't work very, very hard to get away from it. There are lots of studies that show that pornography addiction is biochemically very similar to heroin addiction, and breaking it can be even harder."

c,

Sorry.

But there is immense mischief in the implications and wholesale blame-shifting of the above, especially the idea that brief exposure to porn can cause a chronic physical addiction, absent a nexus of other issues.

Do you have any medical references for these studies?
Jody Tresidder | 08.07.07 - 12:12 pm | #

Part of the lie that is modern society is that women are the same as men, so men shouldn't treat them any differently...

Actually, I personally believe this to be true -- it is not a "lie" at all, but how I believe the ideal world should be. This is how I am raising my daughter and sons. If I treat them differently, it is because of their different personalities and abilities, not genders.

I have a very traditional husband who feels differently, so it is sometimes challenging to prevent him from "protecting" our daughter too much, and "toughening up" our sons. I tend to "toughen up" my daughter, and "protect" our sons, so I guess it evens out!

Regarding porn, I believe consenting adults have the right to produce, distribute and consume it. But I find it distasteful myself. As for addiction, porn is like alcohol -- some people will have trouble handing it, often to an extreme. But most people will only have the occassional beer now and then.
L. | Homepage | 08.07.07 - 12:21 pm | #

My question is related to Dawn's post that women often pressure men to have sex in a dating relationship. So, I am still wondering, and I don't suppose I really expect most of you to know more than I, are women always "victims" in the porn business? Or do they not percieve themselves as victims, being willing participants? Take (the very popular) 'swimsuit' competitions at car shows, for example. I suspect that young women do not believe this to be exploitation, which it is, but something else, I am just not sure what.
Mark | 08.07.07 - 12:22 pm | #

My point here is that women really don't want to marry (I don't think) a weak man, a Playboy man, a lustful man with a constantly roving eye. So why be seductive in public, whether in the pages of a magazine, or stage at the local streed rod festival, etc.?
Mark | 08.07.07 - 12:24 pm | #

on state, obviously, my apologies
Mark | 08.07.07 - 12:26 pm | #

"stage," and I give up
Mark | 08.07.07 - 12:27 pm | #

Mark,

Howard Stern has long made an edgy "joke" out of the fact that the first question he asks strippers and porn actresses on his show is "how old were you when you were first sexually abused?".

(Whatever your opinion of Stern, he has certainly more direct interview experience with women in the industry than most of us.)
Jody Tresidder | 08.07.07 - 12:31 pm | #

I will tell you all this.

I am rather seriously addicted to pornography. Have been for years. Can hardly control myself around it. I am a married man, and I don't think my wife knows.

Or maybe she does, but she also knows that I struggle with this as hard as I can. I go to Mass daily, pray the rosary daily, etc. I'm in a program. I'm trying. Some days are better than others.

Porn is evil. It tickles the brain in all kinds of ways and is almost impossible to break free from. It is absolutely diabolical.

But Chris Arsenault is right, is comes down to men (and women, too, believe it or not) policing their thoughts, practicing custody of the eyes and other senses, and exercising discipline. Man up and act like the Christian soldier you are. This can mean constantly getting knocked down and getting the s--t beat out of you by your diabolical opponent. But then you have got to get back up, on your feet, and try again.

I don't know who is responsible for the tidal wave of pornography and semi-pornography we're all drowning in. I don't know and I honestly don't care how culpability should be assigned. I am just trying to live chastely and I pray every day for our heavenly Father to give me a chaste heart.

People everywhere, Catholics or not, need to know: Porn is evil. Fight it however you can.

Our Lady, Queen of Virgins, pray for us!
Gary Keith Chesterton | 08.07.07 - 12:33 pm | #

Gary - get a hold of a book called Everyman's Battle by Stephen Arterburn & Fred Stoeker. (It's the lead book in the series that WaterBrook Press publishes) It discusses the issue from a man's perspective and is very useful in terms of helping establish the habits for sexual integrity.

What it misses is a kind of support system. Church groups and other support organizations can help.

As you mention, real, honest discussion and constant vigilance is very important
Chris Arsenault | 08.07.07 - 12:42 pm | #

Gary,

You may already have heard this advice: the porn industry is NOT after your soul, it's after your wallet.

The state you're in is collateral damage.

The "industry" doesn't care about you, just your ability to keep paying.
Jody Tresidder | 08.07.07 - 12:49 pm | #

Jody,

That was advice?

Thanks anyway!

Chris,

I have several books on this topic, but I don't know that one. I'll look it up, thanks.
Gary Keith Chesterton | 08.07.07 - 12:55 pm | #

Our thread has kind of touched upon a number of different things, and it's interesting to go back and look at the responses.

It's also interesting that men haven't touched upon some of the things that Dawn writes of that make feminine chastity so interesting and joyful for her in her book, for instance, discovering the wonder of individuals without thinking of them as sexual conquests.

I'm curious - what is the man's perception of these "joys"? I know in my own experience, it was being far more attentive to my wife, and generally less critical, as well in other cases, actually being offended at a Target store by a girl whose chest was nearly falling out of her shirt. Yes - I was actually offended, because she was the cashier - I'm old enough to be her father, and worst of all, I saw the line of guys behind me...and knew what they were thinking. I was actually saddened, and I felt a compassion for her. I wanted to address her - but didn't, because doing so could have easily been taken the wrong way. I felt at as loss, as I'm sure many other chaste men feel when it comes to publically speaking on these related issues.

So guys, is there a unique male perspective to living chastely, and to what extent does it have in common with the female virtues Dawn writes about?
Chris Arsenault | 08.07.07 - 1:09 pm | #

The porn industry is after your money all right, but behind that, there's something else, and that's after your soul. As basic as it likely sounds, that's what's behind the flood of indecent material that we're all awash in. The reduction of women to objects of lust is a powerful instrument for Evil as it strikes at our very being as human beings. You don't have to look far to find any number of ill effects resulting from this plague.

Indeed, in terms of an evil, pornography, and what it represents, has become so accepted that its hard for many otherwise virtuous people to recognize it. It is simply everywhere, and the habits and conduct it encourages finds itself in expression in everyday conduct on the part of thousands of people.

Overcoming this is an enormous task. Gary, keep trying. Its when you give up that you're lost. You have a terrible cross to bear, but you're working on bearing it, which is more than most do. That this would be your cross, and that you are struggling so hard to bear it, suggest that you are a stronger person than most, and stronger than you realize.
Yeoman | 08.07.07 - 1:10 pm | #

"That was advice?"

Gary,
I probably shouldn't have aimed for such brevity!

Just, addiction is overwhelming.

It can help a little sometimes to break down its terrible force into parts.

And one of those less overwhelming parts is "they" just want your money.
And "they" are very, very adroit at extracting it.

This is not remotely to minimize any part of addiction - just to give sufferers a smaller aspect to focus on, sometimes.
Jody Tresidder | 08.07.07 - 1:13 pm | #

Gary, have you considered trying anti-depressants? Not only can they help to relieve the underlying stress that can make people turn to porn for relief, but they have a tendency to short-circuit sexual obsessiveness. (Actually, in some people they kill "sex drive" altogether, but that's rare.) Prozac is especially well-known for this effect.

Perhaps you will think that this is cheating. But really, when you are desperate - and I detect an underlying note of desperation in what you write here - such methods can be a route to peace of mind. If you think of your obsession with or addiction to porn as just another manifestation of "obsessive-compulsive" behaviour, like those people so obsessed with germs that they wash their hands until they're raw, this method of treatment won't seem so far-fetched. Anyway, I wish you luck.
alias clio | Homepage | 08.07.07 - 1:14 pm | #

are women always "victims" in the porn business? Or do they not percieve themselves as victims, being willing participants?

Well, that is part of the point of my comment that there are tens of thousands of women that are or have been involved in the sex industry. I'm sure that many of them were pressured into it and are exploited, but the vast numbers suggest that a great number of women get into because they want to, not because anyone made them do it.
Bender | Homepage | 08.07.07 - 1:20 pm | #

One more thing: when I call addiction to porn a manifestation of "obsessive-compulsive behaviour", I don't mean to suggest that it doesn't have a moral element as well, which obsessive hand-washing, for example, does not.

But any habit that repeatedly (not just occasionally) over-rides your own sense of what is right, and makes you miserable, is more than just a moral issue - there is, as you say, an element of addiction, or as I called it, compulsion, to it. That's why I think anti-depressants might be a legitimate treatment, a way of "breaking the cycle".
alias clio | Homepage | 08.07.07 - 1:25 pm | #

(hope this isn't too tangential) Father Stephanos wrote a great piece on Chastity and the Practice of Mercy.

http://monkallover.blogspot.com/...h- practice.html
JV | Homepage | 08.07.07 - 1:27 pm | #

But any habit that repeatedly (not just occasionally) over-rides your own sense of what is right, and makes you miserable, is more than just a moral issue - there is, as you say, an element of addiction, or as I called it, compulsion, to it.

The Catechism seems to say as much.
JV | Homepage | 08.07.07 - 1:28 pm | #

Not too long ago, I read an article about a study that concluded that when in the early stages of falling in love, a man's testosterone level actually goes down, while a woman's testosterone level goes up. (After marriage or being "together" for a while, the hormone levels go back to normal.) I don't think that means that a man's desire for the woman he is falling in love with lessens, but that he is less inclined to push sex on her if she wants to wait. It made sense to me as God's way of protecting chastity for both parties, maybe as a way to bring out the protective side of men and give women an urgency to marry they might not otherwise have. Anyway, if the conclusions of the study were correct, I think it has very interesting implications for a lot of what we are discussing here.
Janet | 08.07.07 - 1:39 pm | #

Gary,

Please don't give up. Every time you fall, pick yourself up, drag yourself into the confessional, accept God's mercy, and try again. That's what I did, and after years of struggle, God eventually freed me from this horrific cross. He will free you too, so long as you don't give up.

There are other things you can do, of course. Mass and the rosary are critical. Internet filters for home computers can be extremely helpful. Find someone who you trust and install accountability software on your computer. This software sends a list of sites you've visited to the person you specify, which can be a helpful deterrent. Secrecy is your enemy in many ways.

I'll be praying for you (as will others here, I imagine). I know where you're at.
c | 08.07.07 - 1:45 pm | #

Actually, I must have read that article longer ago than I thought, back in 2004! I found it and here's a link if anyone is interested:

http://www.boston.com/yourlife/h...sterone_levels/
Janet | 08.07.07 - 1:48 pm | #

But there is immense mischief in the implications and wholesale blame-shifting of the above, especially the idea that brief exposure to porn can cause a chronic physical addiction, absent a nexus of other issues.

Believe what you want. I've been there, and it started when I was exposed to a neighbor's Playboy mags at age 7. It took over 20 years to undo the damage that that caused.

There is plenty of research that backs up what I said. If I get time later, I'll dig up some citations.
c | 08.07.07 - 1:49 pm | #

The benefits of living chastely? Being able to truly see my wife as the beautiful women she is, rather than just as a thing that satisfies my lust. Being able to see all women as people rather than as things. A much more solid marriage. A much better sex life in marriage (when sex is about your spouse and not you, and when it's about truly becoming one with your spouse in all ways with nothing between you, it's amazing how good it can be). Knowing that I'm modeling for my son what I hope he lives as he grows up. Knowing that I'm modeling for my daughters what I hope they will someday find in a husband. The peace of mind that comes with living as God wants you to live.

The struggle is difficult, but the rewards are endless...
c | 08.07.07 - 1:57 pm | #

As for Chris' comments on living chastely impacts the male view, for me, it's allowed me to focus on my wife as a person, not on her appearance as an object. That's brought me far more joy that viewing the naked female form ever did.

It also causes me to be rather embarrassed for the rather public displays of skin some young women engage in. However, I tend to be embarrassed for them more than anything else. It's a sad state of affairs to have to attract attention by displaying ones wares that way.

On c's comments on the limited exposure to pornography having a long term impact, I have no doubt he's correct. And most who have that cross don't try to bear it, but simply excuse it. The more power to him and Gary for facing it. In some ways their cross is this entire cultures, as this culture is clearly sex obsessed to a ridiculous, and damaging, degree. Sampling the magazine covers at the local grocery store is more than enough evidence of that.
Yeoman | 08.07.07 - 2:04 pm | #

For me the benefit of chastity has been that I see the world around me; from an early age (growing up in a family of unconsecrated, irreligious celibates), I was under the impression that my sexuality was my own, that I was the only person who experienced sexual desire.

Marriage and relationships were represented to me as the domain of weak and miserable people who didn't have any self-worth and looked for others to fill that void. My powerful sexual desires were simply an itch that needed to be scratched, and masturbation seemed desirable because I would not be "using a woman" to fulfill my desires.

When I finally admitted that I would rather masturbate and look at porn than have sex with a woman, I found that the obsession lifted, that I could start to experience the healing grace of God.

Gary, I have been down that path and simply suggest that you keep praying and asking for God's healing; it has worked for me so far! I will keep you and all others who are caught in the clutches of pornography in my prayers.

In chastity and in returning to the Church, I have come to see that those lessons of childhood and adolescence were false, that my desires are part of God's design for me and that there is nothing immoral about them. That said, I have also found myself uncomfortable by some of the skimpy outfits I see women wearing in public, here in hot and humid NYC.
Fallen Sparrow | Homepage | 08.07.07 - 2:29 pm | #

It is not only men who can be addicted to porn.

I went through a stage of it too when my husband was very excited by it. It made it okay to look at adult videos, because he liked them so much, and wanted to try the things shown in the videos. So did I, nobody made me do it. Eventually ALL our sexual activity was started by looking at porn.

Our marriage is over, but I still can see certain images - it's hard to look away when it pops up on my computer, even with guards on the search engine.

Do not underestimate the power of porn. I got caught up in it for quite a while.
over it now | 08.07.07 - 2:44 pm | #

Thanks for the kind words and encouragement.

I can personally attest to the effectiveness of the things that "c" outlines above -- the filters, etc.

If there are any lurkers who are struggling, don't give up hope, my friends. Our Lord Jesus came to proclaim liberty to captives, and He can shatter these chains.

Our Lady of Perpetual Help, pray for us!
Gary Keith Chesterton | 08.07.07 - 2:54 pm | #

Over It Now, I deleted your identifying information. Next time, if you want to undo the cookie that puts in your Web site and e-mail, type "-----" or something else, and that will go in instead.

I don't think many people saw the identifying info between the time you posted it and the time I took it down.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 08.07.07 - 2:58 pm | #

Do not underestimate the power of porn. I got caught up in it for quite a while.

I think my alcohol comparison is apt. It is a product that has the potential to cause great damage, so even most people like me who believe it should be legal also believe it should be controlled.

I can't watch porn without getting sort of....embarrassed. It's like walking in on someone else's private moment -- my first instinct is to shut the door.
L. | Homepage | 08.07.07 - 3:06 pm | #

FS, GKC, Yeoman, et al. - You are all so amazingly heroic and edifying. Thank you for not sparing yourselves and sharing with us your struggles with this horrible monster. From personal experience, I've learned that a huge part of the battle is refusing to keep the secrets. And that refusal actually makes it possible for others to hope for freedom too. I will keep you all in my prayers.
Drusilla | Homepage | 08.07.07 - 3:38 pm | #

L.,
I can't agree with L.'s analogy to alcohol. Jesus turned water into wine which is a pretty explicit acknowledgment that partaking in alcohol is not intrinsically wrong. Porn is different. It invariably separates the sex act from its unitive and procreative purposes. Nothing good can be gained from it.
That said, I agree that it does not follow that it should be criminalized. That is a tougher prudential question.
Mike Petrik | 08.07.07 - 5:16 pm | #

To those struggling with porn: it can be beaten, trust in the Lord. He also lifted me up from the cesspool I had fallen into, after a wonderful Confession and Communion (which doesn't mean I hadn't availed myself of these sacraments before, although I kept falling. That time, it turned out differently). Trust Him.
J.brla | 08.07.07 - 5:35 pm | #

Hi Dawn,
Thank you for this article. I have sometimes thought that women are more harmed emotionally by pre-marital, pre-committed sex than men are (I know only the female perspective), and perhaps my assumptions just aren't true. I feel that my emotions get involved much more quickly when things get physical, and it's hard for me to maintain a clear perspective when that boundary has been crossed. I go much more quickly into relationship mode and perhaps try to preserve a relationship that just doesn't have a foundation. It didn't "appear" to me that this also holds true for men, at least to the extent it does for women, but again, maybe that's not the truth. I would love to hear the other perspective.
My experience has also been that the man is the one to pursue things sexually, but I'm sure that's impacted by the fact that I am almost always the more conservative one (for lack of a better word). I would love to hear some dialogue on what to do when one party is pushing the relationship too far physically. I have had several relationships end because they were going past my comfort zone. I've heard it all. "you need to relax", "you should be more affectionate", "you're uptight". It's easy enough to say that maybe it's for the best those relationships ended, but sadly, in this culture at this time I have found that a physical relationship is expected for a relationship to proceed. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, but I've found this even among religious people. Any suggestions?
Anonymous | 08.07.07 - 6:34 pm | #

One more follow up, if I may... I'm getting tired of dating. I'm tired of fending off gropes, pulling hands away.... But how does one go about finding a life partner (in this culture) without dating? Plus sometimes it's nice just to have the social activity and friendship that's part of dating. I'm sure part of the answer is making one's expectations clear, but again, I've found it hard to find people willing to pursue relationships "chastely".
Suggestions are eagerly anticipated!
Anonymous | 08.07.07 - 6:43 pm | #

It probably would come as a surprise to most Catholics that pornography is regarded as a mortal sin. It's so common, that few realize that (and therefore, for them, it wouldn't be). But what a change over time.

Pornography can not be a mortal sin because it is an object not an act.

It is the manufacture of pornography, and seeking out of pornography, which are the sins.
Mary | 08.07.07 - 7:14 pm | #

Mary makes an important semantic point.

Also, I admit my alcohol/pornography analogy is imperfect. My husband and I consume alcohol in front of our children on a regular basis, yet we have never consumed (and never, ever will consume) pornography in front of them.
L. | Homepage | 08.07.07 - 7:20 pm | #

Or maybe she does, but she also knows that I struggle with this as hard as I can. I go to Mass daily, pray the rosary daily, etc. I'm in a program. I'm trying. Some days are better than others.

Very true, GK. One of the problems with porn is that most people think it's harmless.

But Naomi Wolf puts it well: "For the first time in human history, the images’ power and allure have supplanted that of real naked women. Today, real naked women are just bad porn."

Read the whole thing. It's gripping (though rated NC-17). She explains it better than I ever could.

And Jody: Both the addict and the crack dealer share in the responsibility of the addict's pain and misery. The difference with porn is, is that we are assaulted with it every day. From naked models with their hands over their breasts at tanning salons, to abercrombie and fitch to victoria's secret.

You walk around the corner and some advertiser is sticking a "porn needle" in your arm.
Tony | Homepage | 08.07.07 - 9:34 pm | #

Tony, most people who have been exposed to porn (including me) do not get addicted to it. For some of us, it "seems" harmless because it *IS* harmless. Many of us can shrug off the advertisers' "porn needles," just as many of us can have a glass of wine with dinner without becoming alcoholics. (This is not to belittle the real pain and suffering of addiction born by both porn addicts and alcoholics, and often their loved ones as well.)
L. | Homepage | 08.07.07 - 10:00 pm | #

Tony, most people who have been exposed to porn (including me) do not get addicted to it. For some of us, it "seems" harmless because it *IS* harmless.

Or it seems harmless because you have convinced yourself that it does not harm you?

Notoriously, the most difficult thing about getting over alcoholism is admitting that it's a problem.
Mary | 08.07.07 - 10:45 pm | #

A fascinating post & discussion, to which I will add three words, seen on a bumper sticker published, I think, by the Knights of Columbus:

Porn kills love.
Maclin Horton | Homepage | 08.07.07 - 10:50 pm | #

Or it seems harmless because you have convinced yourself that it does not harm you?

Yes, that's exactly it -- having seen it, I'm convinced it does not harm me at all. I watched it a few times out of curiosity with college friends, and a few times with my husband -- and as I said above, it's just not my cup of tea.
L. | Homepage | 08.08.07 - 12:30 am | #

To go back to previous comments on young women lining themselves up to be exploited by the porn industry--I'd add that we have an epidemic of young women (and girls) lining up to exploit themselves in general, not explicitly for the porn industry. I received high school graduation pictures from my husband's sister and cousin and I was apalled--one was a top-down cleavage shot and the other was a girl laid out on the floor wearing a tube top! And these were the ones deemed suitable to send to grandparents and relatives.

I teach at a big research university and I find it difficult even as a woman to keep my eyes where they should be during class. Many of my students are spilling out of their tops, showing off their undergarments (or lackthereof), and generally wearing what amounts to a washcloth and some body paint. Girls are lining up to go to "pimps and ho's" parties at fraternities and even the angels at the "heaven and hell" parties are nearly naked.

We are selling to our young women that since we're so far beyond the men-making-women-into-objects stage of society, women can feel "empowered" to "reclaim their sexuality" and make objects out of themselves. (to what end, I'm still not sure, but women seem to buy this).

I hurt for all my female students who are in college because they are bright and ambitious but who feel no hypocrisy in saying during class that women are to be taken seriously as intellectuals (which they certainly should be) while their chests are on full display and before putting on their teensy outfits to go out and be oogled by frat boys.
d | 08.08.07 - 12:57 am | #

quick follow-up: what message are we as women sending to men when we act like this? It seems like we are saying "look at me like the sexy object I am" with our bodies while at the same time saying "don't leer at me like that! I am a woman, not an object" with our words. Where does this leave men?
d | 08.08.07 - 12:59 am | #

If we were all truly autonomous beings and the building block of society really was "the individual", than porn would not be a problem for everybody. But we are all connected to each other and we are all in communities, and how others act, feel and speak does indeed affect us. Men see a thousand idealized and airbrushed representations of the female face and form a day and are conditioned to think and feel that this is what women are "supposed" to look like. Is it any wonder, then, that ordinary women, women who are fun, intelligent, serious, hardworking, so often cannot attract committed male partners? And what about women who feel that they must be, to use Dan Savage's term "GGG"s and submit to activities learned from pornography to keep their husbands happy?
Whether or not we immediately feel the effects of pornography, it is having a pernicious effect on society as a whole.
Seraphic Single | Homepage | 08.08.07 - 8:40 am | #

"Is it any wonder, then, that ordinary women, women who are fun, intelligent, serious, hardworking, so often cannot attract committed male partners?"

Seraphic Single,

Problem is, men and women have been complaining about partners not living up to expectations for centuries! We can't lay all the blame on the "assault on decency" porn industry.

Most people don't consume magazine airbrushed images of women in a vacuum.

Men know jolly well what women are "supposed" to look like. They see them for real every day.

Fwiw, I also personally find porn highly objectionable.

But I'm very, very happy to live in a society in which adult women who dress like floozies in the eyes of others suffer nothing worse than a nasty look from people who are bothered by their style.
Jody Tresidder | 08.08.07 - 9:43 am | #

"Pornography can not be a mortal sin because it is an object not an act."

That's quite correct, I stated it poorly.

Your synopsis of it was better than mine. Still, I'd bet that the overwhelming majority of Catholic men today, particularly young men, have utterly no idea at all that willfully viewing pornography is regarded as a mortal sin.
Yeoman | 08.08.07 - 10:35 am | #

"Or it seems harmless because you have convinced yourself that it does not harm you?

Notoriously, the most difficult thing about getting over alcoholism is admitting that it's a problem."

To add to that, it isn't harmless because it never involves just a single person.

In essence, pornography is created by paying a woman to strip for the arousal of others, or worse, and committing the act to a permanent form. Pornography's creation, therefore, is more akin to prostitution, in that those enjoying it cannot do so without having somebody else also commit a grievous sin. Alcoholism impacts others too, but not in the same way. That is, the makers of alcohol aren't sinning just by making it. Pornographers are, and the women and men who are caught up in it are as well.

Another difference, of course, is that it taps into a part of our very nature, hence the problems so many have in avoiding it. God created us with the desire to have sex, Evil has perverted it, but it still remains and is hard to avoid once undertaken.
Yeoman | 08.08.07 - 10:48 am | #

But we are all connected to each other and we are all in communities, and how others act, feel and speak does indeed affect us.

I am coming to see that this is true, Seraphic. We are, in fact, affected by the sex lives of others (particularly in the family); growing up in a family of people who were essentially celibate but not consecrated, and having a mother who complained to me when I was a child about my father making sexual advances on her (!), I was under the impression that I was deeply disordered when I entered puberty and found myself attracted to women. I couldn't understand why I couldn't be like my family, who had no interest in sex or affection.

Men know jolly well what women are "supposed" to look like. They see them for real every day.

Ideally, Jody, this is true, but my own experience is similar to what Naomi Wolf wrote in the article linked in the comments on Dawn's latest post, that pornography actually blinds men to the world around them. We don't see the real women in our lives as sexual. Perhaps this is why so many "real" women are trying to look, dress, and act like fantasy women - to be seen.
Fallen Sparrow | Homepage | 08.08.07 - 10:48 am | #

"I teach at a big research university and I find it difficult even as a woman to keep my eyes where they should be during class. Many of my students are spilling out of their tops, showing off their undergarments (or lackthereof), and generally wearing what amounts to a washcloth and some body paint. Girls are lining up to go to "pimps and ho's" parties at fraternities and even the angels at the "heaven and hell" parties are nearly naked."

Indeed, I've now recently experienced, for the first time, a young woman, in a professional setting where she needs to command the respect of the males in the profession, exposing her backside and a lowly placed tattoo. It not only was inappropriate, if somewhat innocently done, but it really gave me a very negative view of her. I'm trying not to look down on her placing an advertisement on her rear end and then displaying it to a large all male gathering, as I suppose it to be accidental. Still, it's hard not to wonder why an intelligent young woman aspiring to a career would wear clothing in a professional setting where an object designed to focus attention in that regions would be visible.

I don't suppose this to be related to pornography, at least not directly. But it is a little sad how much a sense of propriety has generally declined. I generally don't worry very much about how people dress, but people shouldn't be advertising their wares so directly in every setting. Or, if they chose to, maybe they ought to be aware that this is what they are doing.
Yeoman | 08.08.07 - 10:53 am | #

Yeoman said, "Another difference, of course, is that it taps into a part of our very nature, hence the problems so many have in avoiding it. God created us with the desire to have sex, Evil has perverted it, but it still remains and is hard to avoid once undertaken."

I think that this rootedness in our human nature is what makes sexual sins so difficult to pinpoint and get under control.

I think that some people have little or no reaction to porn. Some others will respond in a way that is easily defeated. OThers will struggle with destructive addictions.

Of those who get snared by the habit, there will be numerous "reasons" for it, making conquering the problem that much more difficult.

We have a lot of big sexual theory talk in culture, but a very unsophisiticated secular science and philosophy of sexuality.

Seraphic Single's refernce to Dan Savage is a perfect point. His attempt at creating an overarching "ethic" of sexuality (a noble pursuit) has led to some bizarre conclusions, one of which is that it is your responsiblity in a committed relationship to be "game" for whatever the mind of your partner can conjure.
corita | 08.08.07 - 11:20 am | #

"..that pornography actually blinds men to the world around them. We don't see the real women in our lives as sexual."

Fallen Sparrow,

You make such good sense.

I think it's confounding, miserable and frustrating when one gets imprisoned by an unrealistic image of women. And lonely, too.

But at the same time, I think it flatters an unpleasant part of our nature when the observer decides exactly what a woman-in-the-street or in-the-office is "saying" with her clothes, or lack of them!

A prudish glare is really no better than a passing leer, sometimes.

"We have a lot of big sexual theory talk in culture, but a very unsophisticated secular science and philosophy of sexuality."

Very well said, corita.
Jody Tresidder | 08.08.07 - 11:50 am | #

Incidentally, Jody, I was going to say also that porn takes away men's ability to be sexual as well; we compare ourselves to other men, just as women compare themselves to women. With that in mind, it's easy to think that if we can't be machines, we're simply not worthy of a woman's attention.

It contributes to the "why bother" attitude that I think many men have toward women. It's simply easier, more enjoyable, and less painful (when you're living inside the problem) to use porn than it is to go out into the world and interact with a woman.

That's why it's so toxic; that's why it really is society's business and not just the business of the individual.
Fallen Sparrow | Homepage | 08.08.07 - 12:55 pm | #

"Incidentally, Jody, I was going to say also that porn takes away men's ability to be sexual as well; we compare ourselves to other men, just as women compare themselves to women. With that in mind, it's easy to think that if we can't be machines, we're simply not worthy of a woman's attention."

I think that observation probably also applies to much of popular culture, at least as reflected by popular media, today.

In the current popular media, particularly in television, sex has come to be portrayed that all adults, and even those short of being adults, must be engaged in all the time, or there's something wrong with them. Television shows are full of unmarried singles who are constantly discussing sex, and often little else. This creates an ideal in a lot of people in the culture, probably most people, that they should really be having meaningless sex all the time, or they're sick. It's extremely rare to see anything in the popular media suggesting that non marital sex is a bad idea for any reason.

It's a very destructive trend, and just as destructive for young men as it is for women. For men it tends to encourage a belief that sex is wholly without consequence. Most probably know better deep down, but the disconnect between sex and marriage makes it difficult for many to ever really fully develop fully as adults. Add to that the influence of pornography and many will be permanently emotionally stunted.

This isn't to suggest that pre marital sex is a new development, which certainly wouldn't be true. But the acceptance of it as the norm is a fairly new development. The prior existence of a higher standard at least caused those engaging in pre marital sex to know that a higher standard existed, and that they were acting below it. Now, quite a few have no idea that's the case, and are actually openly hostile to that idea.

No news, of course, to anyone who stops by here.
Yeoman | 08.08.07 - 1:16 pm | #

I remember reading long ago that one of the reasons that makes it so difficult for some people to quit smoking is that the psycholactive material works as an anti-depressant. Those who are addicted, in effect, are self-medicating.

My past addiction to masturbation, I think, had a component of this. Throughout my life, I have had a tendency towards depression, including two major depressive episodes. I think this psychological weakness contributed to the addiction.

Of course, there is the spiritual aspect to an sinful addiction: one puts up a battle to deny the sin, to explain it away as normal and acceptable, and never really repent.

My addiction was cured when I was 38 - thanks be to God - in the confessional. By grace I came to a point of real contrition, and was healed. It really was the most amazing thing. From that day it stopped, and only reoccurs very very rarely under extremely stressful life situations. When it does, I confess it and start over. It was and is clearly the action of grace - by myself I wouldn't have been able to do much of anything.

Still, there is much to do - sexual temptation and objectification still must be struggled with - but those can be taken as they come. Some of the temptation and objectification can still be traced back to images remembered from pornography - even though my access to it was very limited. So, I can understand totally the struggle that some are burdened with.

I pray that all afflicted with sexual sin be healed by the merciful grace which our Lord is ready to pour superabundantly upon us.
A Father Healed | 08.08.07 - 1:51 pm | #

Ellen Rice writes in an e-mail:

I'm banned; but I apologize to everyone. It's funny how our experiences can make us too sensitive and we can assume the worst. I apologize. Again, I realize that everyone's carrying their own sensitivities to the site. Mine is about appearance. Paradoxically, people can assume the worst about you if you look good. My original note about dye was sincerely meant to encourage DE not to worry about her hair. Annie, vouch for me-- I don't exactly look like a beast, do I? Even if I don't wash my hair!:)

None of this is mortal sin. Not a big deal. I do apologize if I sniped. I wish Dawn the best on her book tours and promotions. And I think the latest post today was very courageous; a real contribution to undoing objectification!
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 08.08.07 - 1:59 pm | #