Great material, Dawn. I can always depend on you to glean the best examples of pro-choice foolishness and your comments are insightful and pertinent, as usual. Thanks.
Ray Matthew | 05.27.07 - 4:13 am | #

My great grandmother had an abortion during the depression because she could not afford the child. She regreted it for the rest of her very long life.

Guilt tells you that you are doing/done something wrong.
lar | 05.27.07 - 5:22 am | #

Joffe teaches at UCDavis? I wonder if she had a hand in this.

It wouldn't surprise.
Athos | Homepage | 05.27.07 - 5:27 am | #

Guilt tells you that you are doing/done something wrong.

Yeah, it's than dang Natural Law. Neither act of Congress, fiat of Supreme Court nor dictate of pro-choice organizations can repeal it. And it shall always be thus.
C.J. | 05.27.07 - 7:04 am | #

So pro-choice houses for pregnant women -- which, like pro-life pregnancy homes, would turn them out on their ass the second they give birth -- are better than longer-lasting political reforms that help women and their children? That's ridiculous.

So far, the only organization I see giving women without insurance any medical care is Planned Parnethood. The only organization is see genuinely trying to protect pregnant women is NAPW. Pro-lifers just want the baby to be turned over to adoption -- which is far more scarring than an abortion.
Anonymous | 05.27.07 - 10:31 am | #

Joffe and Cosby call only for solutions requiring more taxes and more regulations.

To which of those solutions -- affordable housing, living wages, better child care, intimate partner violence programs, or universal health care -- do you object?
Vidiot | Homepage | 05.27.07 - 11:23 am | #

I don't object to political solutions as a general rule. As a matter of fact I agree with many. However, we do have a responsibility to solve whatever problems we can at a personal level. And as far as Christian shelters for expectant moms turning women out into the street once they have their baby, I have never heard of any that does this. I know, however, of many homes which will provide free room and board for the mother and new born for the first years of the child's life. Moreover, I don't know how adoption is more traumatic than abortion. I have never heard of women suffering post adaption depression or of experiencing guilt over letting their baby get adopted by a loving family. I have, however, heard of many who were thankful they did not get an abortion and that their child was now in a loving home. I also know of many adopted children, including my wife and two of her sisters, and my cousin who are eternally grateful they were not killed in the womb. I am also aware of how thankful their parents are that they were able to adopt these children.
Ray Matthew | 05.27.07 - 1:42 pm | #

Anonymous, do you know any of the Sisters of Life? Do you know what they do for young women? Have you ever spoken to any of them or their clients? I suggest you visit http://www.sistersoflife.org, call them, and -- best of all -- volunteer for them or another pro-life group that aids pregnant women -- before making spurious assumptions. I can call your assumptions spurious because I have done all of the things I recommend.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 05.27.07 - 6:42 pm | #

Ray - if you haven't heard of women being traumatized by giving their baby up for adoption, all I can say is you haven't been listening to many women who have done so.

I would never do anything but applaud someone who chooses adoption, but to simply ignore how difficult it is for the mother is to do her a tremendous disservice.
Tapetum | Homepage | 05.27.07 - 7:33 pm | #

Ray:
I have never heard of women suffering post adoption depression or of experiencing guilt over letting their baby get adopted by a loving family.

It does happen, and fairly often at that. In fact, I think it's pretty normal for humans to feel guilt about quite a lot of things, whether appropriate or inappropriate. We are a pretty fragile mix of soul, mind, and body, lots of us.

In the case of adoption, it's very normal for someone to feel that they should have been able to bring their child up, even if they can't.

I'm not arguing against adoption, but if we want to support women psychologically, it's important to know this.

Now, my own very personal experience has been that I've seen way worse post-abortion mental effects than post-adoption, but one has to be careful not to deny other people's personal experiences.
Eileen R | 05.27.07 - 8:02 pm | #

Oh, yeah. One other thing. The baby is alive post-adoption, but not alive post-abortion. Which of those do you suppose is more traumatic?
C.J. | 05.28.07 - 12:40 am | #

Anonymous, I have personally worked at a pro-life maternity home. The women were allowed to stay for six months after the birth of the baby, and we would help them find jobs and homes for afterwards. Self-sufficiency was what our entire program was ABOUT. And even after leaving, the women could still come back for free strollers, child clothes, baby supplies, etc.
zmaria | 05.28.07 - 7:19 am | #

Our local maternity home(to say "pro-life" would be redundant) allows mothers to stay 6-12 weeks, and also helps them find housing, jobs, etc. The reason they can't stay longer is because of the waiting list. They are trying to build a second home to double the amount of spaces available and also make it more accessible to the southern part of the county. Expanding the social welfare system is not going to fix things. Only changing hearts and behavior will reduce the number of crisis pregnancies, abortions, and the need for maternity homes.
pam | 05.28.07 - 2:53 pm | #

Some people here have mentioned guilt over abortion and the issue of conscience. This is interesting.

Hm..I've had an abortion, I've felt guilty about it, but I've shared that guilt and moved on. I still sometimes feel guilt about it but I have a support system to talk to during those times. A deeply Catholic friend of mine forgave me, and says that the Catholic church and God himself forgive me if I realize what I've done and am willing to ask for forgiveness. I regret that I made such a hasty choice, but that was me at the time. Feeling guilty forever, after taking the pains to do everything one can to seek forgiveness and a better life (which seemed to happen, and I coincidentally sought after the abortion)...is not very productive. I think that God gives everyone a second chance even if society doesn't. I've seen others who have had abortions go on to live happy, successful, fulfilling lives and feel good about themselves. And, honestly, feeling guilty about something doesn't necessarily mean you ARE guilty of something, as someone posted relating guilt to conscience. Many people have guilt issues over things that don't necessarily make them sinners. I did the best I could with what I had at the time; it was a very scary and bad time for me. I probably wouldn't want to go through an abortion again. I take great pains to avoid a "mishap" like that happening again. I don't know...am I still a guilty horrible person? And even if I am, will sitting around feeling guilty benefit anything or anyone in the world? How about I work through my guilt and go on to be a better person like others have? Honestly, I was doing less for the world pre-abortion (partying, self-interest, dating bad guys) than post abortion (working toward a more chaste life, encouraging and helping others and sharing my experience to get it out into the open so others can come up to me and say "I've done that too, but I've never had the courage to tell anybody.")

And I wonder what Jewish law would say about this. I know Dawn Eden was formerly an agnostic Jew. I believe the Jewish stance on abortion is a big "no" unless there is danger to the woman's life (correct me if I'm wrong"), but I couldn't imagine a Jewish person continually damning someone who went through an abortion. I don't know if the Catholic view of abortion is the only view.

Life is not a long sentence of guilt after one transgression. The God I believe in wouldn't give me a long life unless there was something else to do with it than wallow in guilt.
Anonymous | 05.28.07 - 3:28 pm | #

Anonymous, you make a lot of sense.
>>And I wonder what Jewish law would say about this. I know Dawn Eden was formerly an agnostic Jew. I believe the Jewish stance on abortion is a big "no" unless there is danger to the woman's life (correct me if I'm wrong"), but I couldn't imagine a Jewish person continually damning someone who went through an abortion. I don't know if the Catholic view of abortion is the only view.>>
Although I'm Jewish, I don't know if there is a 'Jewish' view on the subject. I was assume most Orthodox and Hassidic would be against it, while most Conservative and Reform probably are more liberal about it. Personally, I will never understand the uproar on either side of why this became The Most Important Topic In The World (along with gay marriage, of course!). Unless it's my wife or a member of my family, if someone wants to have a kid, great. If something happened and they want an abortion, who am I to tell them not to? They have to decide if 'guilt' is worse to live with than a child they don't want to support or gave away for adoption. I know some people who are god-awful parents and feel sorry for how those kids will turn out. As long as something is not illegal, people should have choices.
neil c | 05.28.07 - 5:27 pm | #

Anonymous,
Do you acknowledge having taken the life of an innocent person?

neil c,
Do you understand abortion entails the destruction of an innocent life?
Leif | 05.28.07 - 8:25 pm | #

Anonymous, I'd recommend you check out Rachel's Vineyard, an organization that helps women heal after abortion.

Leif, I wish your default reaction to any post-abortive woman, regardless of whether she feels guilt or not, was compassion.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 05.28.07 - 9:37 pm | #

Leif,
I understand I knew that you'd respond. I was just wondering which phrase you'd use.
neil c | 05.29.07 - 1:12 am | #

"But they are highly aware of the shame and stigma surrounding abortion...".

Is "shame" always the most accurate word to describe how many women feel after abortion?

Or is "shame" used with such energy and frequency by pro-lifers simply because of its useful associations with guilt - which "sorrow" - a more complex response - does not automatically carry?

There is just as much politically-charged labelling of post-abortion women by pro-lifers as any other agenda group.
jody tresidder | 05.29.07 - 11:42 am | #

Uh, jody, the "shame" word came from the pro-abortion authors of the linked article, who want for women to be able to snuff out unborn life unashamedly.
craig | 05.29.07 - 2:15 pm | #

craig,
Crikey - you are perfectly correct.

Thank you very much & I feel very foolish!

I could sort of talk my way out of this - by claiming I thought the article was completely frightful & missing the truth by a mile or so - but I don't think it would be plausible.

(Talk about rushing in like an idiot with my own agenda!)
jody tresidder | 05.29.07 - 2:51 pm | #

Dawn,

Why should I be so quick to muster compassion for someone who deliberately killed their child?

Niel C,
Why always respond with cute remarks?
If you truly understand that an abortion entails the destruction of an innocent life, then why the attitude of "who am I to tell a woman what to do..." ?

If people are deliberately killing their children by aborting them, as you acknowledge is being done, then perhaps we should tell them what to do, i.e. tell them to stop.
Leif | 05.29.07 - 6:26 pm | #

Dawn,

To put a finer point on it, what I see in Anonymous' entries is "I'm gonna wash that guilt right outa' my hair!"

-------------------

"Pro-lifers just want the baby to be turned over to adoption... "
Anonymous says.

...and "prochoicers" just want the baby turned over to the sanitation/waste truck dude asap.
Leif | 05.29.07 - 6:37 pm | #

Leif,
Because while other people who are against abortion have well-reasoned, rational arguments, while all you have is wild-eyed fanaticism. Plus, as my wife would agree, I am cute. :)
neil c | 05.29.07 - 7:50 pm | #

If you truly understand that an abortion entails the destruction of an innocent life, then why the attitude of "who am I to tell a woman what to do..." ? >>

Because it's not a big, important issue in my life, like it is for you. I worry more about the destruction of innocent life our government sanctions for no reason.
neil c | 05.29.07 - 7:52 pm | #

neil c,

If you believe my opposition to legalized infanticide is wild-eyed fanaticism, then swell.

I think you *like* others' pro-life arguments more, and find them "well-reasoned(and)rational", because they tend to stray from the thing in itself.

If my statements are sometimes gruesome, in regards to abortion, don't get upset with the messenger. I'm always trying to bring it back to what you yourself support.


Saying that "people should have choices" has a lullaby quality to it. If I were two years old, or high, the phrase would put me to sleep. But I'm thirtysomething and sober and the phrase is too vague. So I ask "what sort of choices, neil?"

A "right to choose" to pursue a desired career"?
Sure!

A "right to choose" to steal my car?
Well, only if you're headed to the hospital, in an emergency.

A "right to choose" to kill a child?
Never!

Neil, you tease me for turning phrases back around at people.
Fair enough.
Abortion is wild-eyed fanaticism, not my opposition to it.
Leif | 05.29.07 - 8:25 pm | #

Whatever you say, Leif
neil c | 05.29.07 - 8:36 pm | #

If my statements are sometimes gruesome, in regards to abortion, don't get upset with the messenger. I'm always trying to bring it back to what you yourself support.

I've been cutting down on blogs recently, but I just had to post now.

Leif, I think you're extremely sincere in the beliefs you put forth here. That really is great, and I respect it even when I disagree with the views. And because of that, I'm going to give you a hint on how to possibly win people over to your side.

Talk of curettes and bloody limbs probably won't do it. After all, we all see that on our nightly news (even me, and I'm in Canada now), whether violence concerns are domestic or taking place abroad.

Way more importantly, most of the more thoughtful commentators (on both "sides") are just not swayed by the same-old, same-old rhetoric. If you tried to think about different perspectives and came up with good arguments, or even discussion topics, you might make people consider issues.

Just a thought.
Terezia | 05.29.07 - 10:11 pm | #

Terezia, thank you for your thoughtful comment.

Leif, I have banned your IP address. I banned you the first two times you attempted to pummel fellow commenters and forgave you twice when you said you would follow the rules.

There is no excuse for personal attacks. Other commenters who are vehemently pro-life are able to express their views to pro-choice commenters without being punitive. The fact that you refuse to restrain yourself for the sake of polite discourse is intolerable to me.

Please do not return to posting comments on this blog until at least May 29, 2008.
Dawn Eden | Homepage | 05.29.07 - 10:58 pm | #

"Affordable housing, living wages, better child care, intimate partner violence programs and universal health care are things the movement must fight for in order to give these women and their children a shot at a decent life," they write."

Some pro-life groups, like Feminists for Life, do advocate and work for all of the above. Just so you'll know.

But Dawn is right, even getting all the government social programs they could desire would not stop feminists like these authors from advocating abortion, waving it as a banner of the political struggle. Because for them the struggle is ultimately all about women not being pregnant, period.

It all goes back to the need to keep up with men in the "sexual revolution." Because sexually liberated doesn't mean being tied down with children. And they are sick enough to want the whole next generation of children to die, and their mothers to suffer, so they can have that.

That doesn't mean that they are totally aware of the ramifications. On some level they do care about women and children. But they are blind and delusional. Let's pray for them.
Lori Pieper | Homepage | 05.30.07 - 12:36 am | #

How odd -- I am exactly the kind of career-focused, pro-abortion-rights, sexually liberated women you`re talking about, Lori, and yet I find myself "tied down with children." Willingly and eagerly, in fact.

Just so you'll know.
L. | Homepage | 05.30.07 - 10:22 am | #

Leif, your latest attempt to leave a comment from a Kinko's computer has been deleted. Neither you nor anyone has permission to leave obscenities in these comment boxes. You are banned from this forum.
Dawn Eden | 05.30.07 - 10:32 pm | #

L, I never meant to suggest that feminists, or liberated, career-focused women never had babies. (Admittedly the post I wrote in such haste very late yesterday night probably sounded that way).

What I was in fact writing about was the ideology shared by these two authors, that suggests, to be more accurate, that for any pregnancy that is the least incovenienent, abortion is the answer, a lberating answer.

Unfortunately, "choice is not what they're striving for -- making sure that there are as many abortions as possible is. Can you doubt it after reading the article?

"In contrast, in many of today's clinics, the staff is so busy complying with state-imposed "informed consent" requirements, which often involve telling patients downright lies -- for example, the supposed link between abortion and breast cancer and other distortions of risks of the procedure -- that there is rarely the opportunity to impart a positive political message about reproductive justice."

In other words, forget about actually offering women a choice - choice means alternative. Don't even let women know about the development of the child in the womb or the medical risks, or what options are available to continue the pregnancy, because then (gasp!) they might not actually have the abortion. In particular, denying the breast-cancer link (which is scientifically very well-documented) is just plain scary. People like these are doing incalculable harm to the health of women because of their delusion. In fact, we've gone all the way around the world and back to the worst excesses of patriarchy again. "Don't listen to dissenting voices from those pro-lifers, sweetie, we know what's best for you."

"Choice" is far too important a word to be left up to these authors to define. I'm glad you are "tied down" to your children by choice, but what do you really think about the "choice" these authors are presenting to other women -- aren't you just a bit disturbed by it?
Lori Pieper | Homepage | 05.31.07 - 1:57 am | #

Well, no, I`m not disturbed by it at all. I do agree with the authors that sometimes abortion is the right answer (and I don`t believe the breast cancer link at all, either). I don`t need anyone to tell me, "Don't listen to dissenting voices from those pro-lifers, sweetie, we know what's best for you," because I know what`s best for myself --- and it`s certainly not another pregnancy!
L. | Homepage | 05.31.07 - 2:05 am | #