Rhod, just wanted to let you know that there are some interesting letters from leaders in the WSJ opinion page about that article on fighting insurgencies (VN/Iraq).
Posted this in comments here and in DC's last post - to be sure Rhod saw it.
On that flag picture - its disgusting - and correct - the US is in distress regarding illegal immigrants.
It IS an invasion by a hostile force and By GOD, some of US are going to have to act, I don't think our government is going to do anything...
The time for talking is PAST, it is time for ACTION...
Thanks, Cruiser. I no longer read the WSJ broadsheet; is there an online version available? I'll stop by your digs for a look.
I'm with Texas Fred, too.
It is time to close the borders, and start returning Vincenzos little lost brown brothers.
But the irony of ironies is Vincente Fox is part Spanish and part Irish, bet the average mexican doesn't know that. thats right there hasn't been a true mexican leader. He can't push them across the border fast enough...
Talk about a country of the haves and have nots that defines mexico.
But you got to hand it to Fox he knows we won't send them back in any mass numbers, so he keeps sending all of his Wards, and good ol' Uncle Sam , you and me have to pay for them.
They keep coming because we keep giving them amnesty every 20 years just like clock work. Because congress has no 'stones'.
Rhod, I posted the letters from the WSJ on my site.
I'm going to take them down in a couple of days - out of respect for the WSJ's rights.
Well the circle is complete, they shut down the schools in LA, now there is no truancy, ergo no violation, These stupid poloticians are letting the country be run by a bunch of wetbacks.
Cruiser:
I was just there, and I appreciate it very much. Lots of effort expended on your part.
I disagree with the last letter because I think the assumptions are invalid. Search and Destroy was, of course, necessary, and there were big engagements as early as 1965 but the writer completely overlooks the fact that pacification (at least in III Corp, where I was) was way down the list, and I think it was true all the way down to The Delta.
For example, at Cu Chi, you could take a right out of the main gate to the village of Cu Chi, where we were relatively welcome (except at night), or a left to Vinh Cu (or Binh Cu) which was off-limits except for combat operations. You were likely to be killed at any time in Vinh Cu, and killing VC on a daily basis had no effect on the friendliness of the residents of Vinh Cu. What were we doing? Anyone who ever took a convoy up Routes 1 or 13 learned how fast a deuce-and-a-half could go on damaged roads, because it wasn't safe to stop anywhere, and if you got left behind, it was up to you to save yourself. S & D wasn't earning us any friends in the huts along the roads.
Mark has commented elsewhere that taking positions at great losses, only to abandon them to the enemy was another incomprehensible angle of S & D. If, by Tet, the Viet Cong were annihilated, there was still a supply of NVA. I suppose this begs the question as to whether the VN War was EVER a counterinsurgency after 1954, or whether it was an invasion.
Once we decide what it was, maybe then we can evaluate Westmoreland. I was trained in The States to fight an insurgency, and the Ambush Academy at Cu Chi even in 1966 was set up to train us further in what we had to confront there. I had absolutely no instruction in how to treat the Vietnamese.
In re the letters about Iraq. I don't understand the premise that insurgencies always end. Who says? Is what's happening in Iraq now an insurgency or payback or troublemaking? Somebody has to know, and the American public needs to know.
I don't think more troops would have made a difference and I don't think the hard push to Baghdad was a tactical error. I've heard that argument before, and I simply can't visualize what the alternative would look like. The theory is that we should have moppped up the enemy as we moved down the roads to the capital. Stopping a column of infantry for days in order to fight an enemy who's disappeared? It makes no sense.
Anyway Cruise, thanks very much for the letters. Don't you take comments at Halbarad? No Haloscan.
Cruise and DC:
I know this thread is about illegals, but I want to add one thought about Cruise's letters. The last letter by Dale Andrade, a guy who knows nothing about the subject.
A figure that stunned me recently, although I recall those nightly news lists of the weekly dead (300-400 a week), that in May of 1968 we had 2600 soldiers and Marines killed. 2600 in one month. This was AFTER Tet, when the VC were supposedly exhausted.
Anyone who believes that Search and Destroy was the necessary strategy from 1965 to 1969 needs to have his head examined.
Its weird Rhod, my comments had been turned off on all my new posts - but I did not make that change. Thanks for pointing it out. I noticed that I had not gotten any comments lately and chalked it up low readership or a suspicion that I was not connecting with readers (or both).
I'm working on fixing it.
Rhod,
Your comments on the number killed in VN in one month (more than the whole Iraq War) "after the VC were exhausted" reminds me ... no one brings that up when comparing Iraq to VN, at least not any one in the MSM or on the Left.
And Mark, your usage of the term "wetback" to describe the "protesting immigrant workers" in Calfornia is misplaced. "Wetback" means an "immigrant worker" who ventured across the Rio Grande River to come to the great State of Texas.
Those people in California are just Democrats.
Two mistakes DC I also didn't capitolize the word and you are correct only in Texas... My bad.
Rhod, You are right I never thought of that, about how to treat the Vietnamese, No no classes at all, we went through staging battalion in two weeks, had ambush training, booby traps, escape and evasion, but no people to people skills.
Then at the end of staging battalion we got our combat physicals, the whole company stood at attention in front of 'Sick-bay' and waited for the Doctor to come out, he came out, we were called to attention and then The Doctor instructed everybody to raise their right hand and make a fist, Ok he said now extend your index finger and move it back and forth,... Ok you pass and we were on our way.
Even before Khe Sanh there was operation Praire 1-4 and we were running into NVA in early 67', I don't know if the VC were ever depleted to the point of being in-effective, I don't ever remember that. But after 68' every thing is a blur anyway.
From illegals to the Wall Street Journal to healthy Marine fists with wagging index fingers. God, I love this blog!
Yes, Rhod. It is a grand old time here ... if only Nick were here to share it. I've got a post coming up tomrorow that brings back memories of the Great Goomba.
But here ... we keep going strong b/c we/you report, we/you decide.
Has anyone noticed, the backlash from fly over country ? The picture above this thread is being seen around the country, and the little people, like me, the ones who pay the bills are steamed.
Lets see how long these idiots keep it up. It usually takes an awful lot to piss off the American people but even us 'Red-Staters' have our limits.
Mark:
I'm lashing back myself; this morning I nearly kicked the radio out of my truck dash when I heard Presidente Nature-Abhors-a-Vacuum Bush nattering down in Mexico. Words like this:
"..we don't want them sneaking across the border, we want them coming in an orderly fashion".
Great. I guess he wants the Coyotes to check fingernails and gig lines before they line up and walk across the border to do those jobs Americans don't want....like construction work, skilled trades, equestrian services, door-to-door..all those stupid jobs nobody wants excepts illegals. Do these idiots thing they're all picking lettuce and berries? Morons.
And assuming they're all low paid ag workers, what we're admitting to is exploitation of men and women who are dumped from the fields when they reach age forty...and what do these idiot farmers think is going to happen to WAGES under a Guest Worker Program? Go down? Morons again.
I'm dying here. Never have I felt such disgust with an administration or Congress. Not even with Clinton, because my expectations of Democrats are so low anyway that nothing starts a real blaze.
But this immigration crap is going to shatter the Republican coalition, and not voting for Republicans is going to be a perfectly valid way to register discontent. Limbaugh is wrong. When coalitions end, you stop participating in them. In the intermediate you get minority governments unable to govern effectively, which is exactly what you want. A little chaos on the way to better things is better than the dead hands of the status quo.
Rhod,
Okay, understand the angst. Believe me ... still.
This problem will get fixed, if it does, by conservative Republicans.
While we are at war with jihadis, we can ill-afford a H. Clinton presidency. There is too much at stake.
If you want to not vote for any Republicans responsible for this mess, i.e., McCain, that is perfectly valid. I agree. But to punish them as a whole (Sensenbrener, Tancredo, Cornyn, et al.) makes no sense.
Name me a Democrat that could be trusted on immigration or nat'l security (Insert sound of crickets.) Now, to say that opening a border flood to teach the Republicans a lesson teaches who what?
The flaw in your analysis is that this "minority govt." would do nothing. It would do plenty, from installing Ruth Bader Ginsburg clones on the bench to creating a Jihadi Bill of Rights. Counting on the Demos to do nothing when they get in power is kinda like counting on the French to use a cannon other than a water cannon.
DC:
I've heard the arguments, and stasis is not appealing. And while it pains me to disagree with you, I disagree.
I can't name any conservative Republicans who will fix this problem because I haven't heard from any of them. And moreover, there aren't enough of them to make a difference. This isn't the first issue that's rattled past the conservative opposition without a whimper. Politics as usual. Who can fix it, DC? And how?
I believe, also, that this war will be fought whoever is in the White House, even the left. I don't accept your argument because war is being waged against us whether the left likes it or not. I do not believe, DC, that the Murtha/Pelosi/Reid Axis of Evil will prevail, even if the Donks occupy the White House. I know you're sincere in this, but I disagree.
I can't name a Democrat who can be trusted on national security or border issues, but, DC, that doesn't negate the outrageous way these subjects are wrapped together and smothered by Republicans in this immigration scheme. I am furious at Bush and his minions for this wicked cancellation of the logic of the WOT for some unspecified delirious affection Bush has for Latin American culture and the wretched Vicente Fox. Bush's planets have lined up again with Ted Kennedy's.
This is a monstrous "So what" to the sturm and drang Bush has been asking Americans to endure for the past five years. We're bleeding in the sands of the ME and paving the sands of the American Southwest for millions of people who lack the convictions necessary to sustain their own country. Hopelessness there is not the problem of the American drywall installer here.
The layers of ignorance, cynicism and cronyism brought to immigration has erased any trust I have in this administration. This makes the Harriet Miers fiasco seem like successful brain surgery. We're dying abroad, for Christ's sake, wringing our hearts dry to establish a representative government in the stinking slurry of Middle Eastern sectarianism, and yet not strong enough to fortify American culture, defend American laborers and resist the slow but inevitable Balkanization of the country?
No, I will not swallow hard and vote for them. In the end, Caligula or Nero. Some choice. I'm, still hoping for an American to rise above this wretched collection of gutless compromisers, but if not, let the chips fall.
Rhod,
With all due respect, if you haven't heard from any conservative Republicans, you're not listening.
McCain is not the Republican Party. Nor is Specter.
There is Tancredo, King, Sensenbrenner in the House. You asked who can fix it. Sensenbrenner's plan is pretty good. I think the felony charge is probably unworkable, but the rest of it is good. There are a lot of Republicans who agree with him.
There is Cornyn, Kyl, and Sessions in the Senate.
Amnesty is DOA b/c of these guys.
I don't agree with the Bush approach on immigration, but you are very mistaken if you think this war will be fought and won if Democrats are in charge. Rhod, they're on the other side, as we've discussed here many times. You've said as much. Why in the world will the Left rise up against the jihadis? They will have to become conservatives to do so.
And on the immigration front, it will be far worse than Bush could ever be. What do you think an immigration bill that would provide enough illegals for the Demo voter banks would look like under a Demo Senate and House? Under a Clinton Administration?
At least there are Republicans who don't walk in lockstep with Chamber of Commerce. You can't cite me one example of a Demo who can be trusted to stand up to the enemies of America, but we're supposed to just give up on every good representative in Washington? This makes no sense.
There are no perfect solutions here.
They are trying to censure and are going to impeach Bush, for crying out loud, for listening to jihadis on the phone. It is pure fantasy to say that the Demos will fight this war as the Bush Admin. has. Pure fantasy. They are on the other side, if not on purpose they are in deed.
DC:
You're right. I've contradicted myself on this issue and lots of others. And I'm acquainted with the Sensenbrenner plan. I know also that any poll you choose indicates that Americans by huge margins want serious efforts to limit and, if possible, end entirely, our open border on the south...and even the north. Don't underestimate the power of the dominant political class pressured by the President to swamp the opposition. Bad ideas and pigheadedness are a mark of George Bush's presidency. (Exclude the war and the Bush Doctrine.)
There is a "but" here on both the war and the immigration fiasco. I detest the left for all the reasons I've expressed, and I've enjoyed the battering we give them on all the blogs. But deep inside I don't think they're electable, so I've never taken seriously the possibility that anyone from their side would rise to the level of Chief Executive.
An America that would position anyone from that nuthouse in the Oval Office is so deeply disturbed that the things you and I believe in would be too thin on the ground to act as a corrective. That's not defeatism, DC, it's a recognition of the world as it might actually be. And included in that is the real possibility that, if someone from the padded room made his/her way to the White House, events brought to us by the Islamic World would quickly change the dynamic. This war will be waged one way or another, and by whichever party runs the show. The only question is, how effectively?
Second, my short view of Bush's immigration policy. I've said this before, months ago, that the man is prone to fixations and passions that originate in his head and his heart rather than in the empirical world, and his views of Mexican immigration, I think, come from some sentimental attachment he's acquired growing up in the Southwest. It's not an oversight that his plan has no serious plan at all to address the problem of an open border. Without it, all the rest is pointless.
His thinking on this matter is flawed, completely without practical merit, contrary to American public opinion and his own defense policies, and dismissive of the economic, cultural and security issues facing us. If the major figures in his party line up behind him, and they seem to be, then neither Bush nor his party deserves public office any more than the left.
We will have arrived at a point in our history where the political classes, as I call them, themselves no longer take representative democracy seriously. That's a fact that needs to be proven, sure, but I don't think the proof is far away. As my son said to his twin brother, who just pushed off down a steep half-mile road through the forest on a brakeless MoPed. "Grab your ba**s and hang on tight". Not trying to be funny, we're just all on that MoPed now and we don't know where we're going to land.
Rhod,
As usual, I appreciate your thoughts. Even when we disagree, I enjoy your perspective.
Re: the Demos being electable, remember this: They are plenty electable if: a) the public forgets/does not realize we are at war; or b) the lie is perpetrated that the Demos are no different on nat'l security.
Recall the 90s as an example of a).
There is a verb floating around the ME right now. Not much is said about it, except among the Islamic world. It's called to "Bush" some one ... which basically means to open a can on them/kill them, quietly but noticeably. The things the Bush Admin. is doing globally can't be trumpeted (and shouldn't be) for a lot of reasons.
It would be a tragedy to see the Left take charge of this war.
I agree with you that we are going to have to face them one way or another. I would prefer to do it on offense.
As for immigration, I don't disagree with you about Pres. Bush. One thing, though ... his views on this stem largely from his faith. I share his faith, as I have said, but not his approach.
I think that he is too influenced by the Chamber of Commerce wing of the Republican Party on this issue. But it's a disagreement I have with him. I don't think it nullifies the other successes in waging the war.
cont ...
An interesting thing about Bush that I admire very much is ... the things that conservatives have the most angst about, immigration, the prescription drug plan, spending ... these are things that are consistent with what he has believed and said he would do. Since 9/11, he hasn't been perfect, but he has been very good on nat'l security, and he has kept his word.
The only exceptions to the foregoing were ... 1) CFR, and this was a political miscalculation. He was wrong to do this; and 2) Harriet Miers, and he fixed this.
Given the savagery from the Left and the tendency for perfect-churchism from some quarters on the right, he hasn't done badly ... especially given the fact that the President can't speak and he has an army of boobs working for him (his speechwriter notwithstanding) for whom English appears to be a second language. It's very frustrating, especially combined with Bush's tendency to take the "high road" with adversaries.
To punish every Republican for the actions of McCain and some others on immigration is, I think, very shortsighted and unwise. Bush isn't on the ballot, either.
And McCain is a RINO. There are some real Republicans out there ... and in the Senate. Take McC's fellow Arizonan Kyl, i.e., who is great on immigration.
Vote against those who get this wrong. That is perfectly fine.
But ... there were 4 Republicans who voted for the Senate plan on the Judiciary Committee. 7 voted against. That's hardly party leadership lining up behind Bush's position.
In the House, it is far bleaker for the WH.
To punish every Republican for the actions of those who get it wrong on immigration is not the solution. It will lead to more, not less, chaos on the border.
It will lead to playing defense in the war with jihadis ... and, as a result, more dead Americans.
That sounds harsh, but I think it is true. Re: having to fight this war, the war is going on in France, too. The Left/Demos/same thing will fight it here like their kinfolk are "fighting" it there. That is, they will surrender slowly.
The only thing the Left will fight for is the right to live their radically unconstrained lives and in whatever manner they choose to do so. They haven't the stones to fight the bad guys we are facing. And ... they will be the first ones whose heads would be sawed off if we lose.
But, if I have anything to do with it, they won't get the chance.
That's a great summary, DC, full of fire and the kind of things I wish I could say myself.
Yesterday Il Presidente Bush said he would probably veto any plan that doesn't include a guest worker program.
That's the difference in being President and being in the House or Senate. You can split your party and hand the future to the Democrats. He doesn't need me telling others not to vote for Republicans. He's doing a pretty good job himself.
This is rapidly becoming a minority government, with the President on the side of the minority, unless that genius Karl Rove has some brilliant plan that will blossom next year.
In my more rational moments, I suspect anyone who seeks the office in 2008 will have to firmly reject Bush anyway, especially a Republican.
DC:
No more snarky stuff for now. I fully understand that leftists must be excluded from every political office big enough to have a pencil sharpener, and not only because they'd require a license to use it and six Caution signs leading up to it. There I go again.
I've read somewhere that over the past four years, the blogs of the left have been drainpipes for Bush hatred, and the blogs of the right have been information dispeners. The observation was backed by a "study", but I don't remember what it was.
I don't see anything like our exchange yet on other blogs, but we probably will. One or both of us will have had the emerging idea, and a third or fourth way might develop. It usually does in this country.
All along, Bush has been, for many of us, the man blog conservatives said he was, even as he diligently made clear that he wasn't. The error was ours, not his. If his Faith has been the implement he used to pry some of us from his back, then he might have conceded another argument to the left, and reinterpreted one part what it means to be a religious conservative. If we're all supposed to act like Eleanor Roosevelt, then we need to find our leaders elsewhere.
The questions are too intricate and complicated to be decided here. Thanks for your steady hand. No one would ever put me in charge of the think tanks, that's for sure.
Rhod,
I don't know. If you're not in charge, you've gotta at least be on the staff.
I sure listen. I understand what you're saying. Stay tuned.
You're right re: the blogs. The conservative blogs are making a difference. The leftist blogs are, too, and that one helps us, too.
Commenting by HaloScan
