Good post DI. I think I can speak to your concerns here. You see I'm considered dad to five people. A couple of those five have reached the point in their lives where they are independent and one is already a parent herself. So here's my take on your situation:
Parenting is kind of like planting a seed. Sometimes, the seed is planted somewhat shallow and one sees the seedling soon breaking through the earth. Other times, the seed gets buried somewhat deeper. It takes longer for a deeper planted seedling to burrow through the earth that covers it.
If a person has tried their best to be a good parent then the planted seed is destined to bear good fruit when it matures. The inverse is of course also true.
You see the depth at which the seed is planted is written entirely in the genetic make-up of the child not the efforts of the parent. Some children are willful and headstrong and yet others seem to take instruction willingly. The important thing to remember is this... While it may be gratifying to see those early seedlings poking their heads out of the earth, the deeper planted seeds usually yield plants that are better rooted.
Primitive cultures all around the world usually have established tests for advancement to adulthood status. We, in all of our self-aggrandizing wisdom, consider ourselves to be more enlightened or evolved and have discarded that time-tested practice because we considered it archaic. I would contend however that our children still under-go those rites of initiation. Our culture's ignorance has simply changed the rules and forced the children themselves to formulate their own rights of passage. It would appear that you survived that self-imposed catechism just as I did and I imagine that your nephew will as well.
You see my son (the marine) was just such a wild rebellious child. In fact he still is to some extent. Slowly however, my heart warms to see that seedling slowly emerging, furtively poking its head above the rocky soil as he realizes that perhaps his old man wasn't quite as full of shit as he initially thought just a few years or even months ago. I'm seeing that the seed was set deep and that it’s sprouted a healthy deep-set root system.
His older sister on the other hand always seemed more pliable and easily controlled, but I see now; sometimes with concern, that the seed's roots in her seem to be held in place only by a tentative layer of soil, composed only of a desire to not disappoint. You see she hasn’t incorporated the “seed” into her being quite as intimately as her brother has.
So as my daughter has grown older I’m seeing that the times that will trouble my heart may still lie ahead with her. Her younger brother on the other hand is showing signs that the trials and tribulations may well be abating.
All children test their parent’s nerves. It’s just a question of when. Some do it earlier, others later. You see, there is an immutable rule in life; ever
(Contd...)
You see, there is an immutable rule in life; every moment of mirth must be purchased with a moment of pain. Sometimes you pay in advance and others in arrears.
Well,I was trying to think of what advice I would give.
All I can think of is that the boy has to go through life the way he thinks is fit and that will be a great life lesson.personally I think his youth works with his vices and that there will be a time when he will stop but till then he should be allowed to go on this path.He knows what the right way is and choses not to go that way.He is 18 and is an adult.
I was a lot like you when I was younger and did what i thought I knew was best for me,I messed up pretty bad,I regret it all today.But I think that where I am today is based on choices I made...and that I turned from the bad in my life
I like what you said"that things did not happen" that they were conscious things.
Accountability counts
Being a successful football player is of serious detriment to him. I sincerely hope his parents have not let him entertain ideas of "going pro". Everyone follows their own path of personal discovery wherein they find out what profession they might like to pursue in life. Some people have no idea in high school. Some people have no idea after they graduate college. But athletic stars almost always carry the notion that they'll get picked up by a professional sports team, and be whisked away to do what they love for a living and make millions of dollars eating caviar in their mansions. The likelihood of this happening is extremely slim, and is not something one should assume will happen to them. Even if it does happen to them, we can still find many professional athletes who rise quickly to stardom, who have not yet matured mentally or socially.
All pro goery aside, I've always felt (and you'll have to excuse my age when I use the word "always") that if a parent teaches his or her child nothing else, the child should be taught respect. Respect for authority, respect for elders, respect for others, and respect for themselves. Being respectful to people I don't know has earned me a reputation as a polite person. Being respectful to people who feel you should respect them can turn a bad situation into a good one before a minds are made up. Being respectful instantly creates a good first impression. These are all easy ways to get ahead when dealing with other people, but the most important aspect is being respectful of yourself.
To me, self respect means you hold yourself to a higher standard. (Actually, I guess that depends on your company, but you know what I mean 
If someone you respect would think less of you if you did something, you know you shouldn't do it. If _you_ would think less of you if you did something, you know you shouldn't do it. It's simple, but if you can try your best to live that way, I'd venture that you'd wind up pretty successful.
Of course everyone needs a release valve, and perhaps getting drunk at a party is that release. But you can still choose to do it in a way that will allow you to maintain your respect for yourself. Don't drink in excess, plan to have a ride or stay the night, be mindful of those around your so you don't do or say something to offend them, etc.
It can never be a good thing if you lose a degree of respect for yourself, or if those you respect lose respect for you.
I hope this comment hasn't been too presumptuous of me, and that all of you have not lessened your level of respect for me.
G-Man, that was top shelf. It helps, too. Excellent analogy and I have high respect for the words of a dad times five!
I worry about that kid because he was on such a good course with a great attitude for so many of his early years. Perhaps as you suggest he is very similar to your daughter in learning. She was on the solid path, but may have to stray from it now to realize how good it was; to truly see 'it'. If she chooses that method, it will be tough on her child... and certainly you and mom, too. I sincerely wish you all the best here and fully understand your worry.
I did it that way, too. But there sure are easier ways to do things if you use your brain... (admittedly more often a folly than a routine when you're young). Seeing it in my rear view mirror now is a picture I wish I could impart to that kid.
That's disappointing. I realize you get what you get, but it is disappointing because I wonder if some of the 'mirth' was purchased by the parents at the expense of the boy's future 'pain'. By that I mean that they took the easier way out, IMHO, at a critical time (if there are any times that aren't?) by not continuing to issue the previously rarely needed punishment, that was well deserved, when it was deserved. It worked until they stopped. They chose to rationalize and hope when the tough thing to do was to penalize and subtract. This is now the direction he has gone without correction.
Maybe he would head off track anyway. I accept that there are many things (most) out of our control; the only buttons on the remote are 'volume', 'mute', 'change the channel' and 'off'. The movie plays on.
Thanks very much for your insight and experience, Sir. I always appreciate your time.
FP, one of the things that haunts me is that he is not yet 18. This is the withering time they still have remaining to make their effort while he remains a minor. And they sure are trying! I just think it is very much time for tough love rather than hand wringing, more lectures and raised eyebrow hopes. That's not cutting it.
Having taken similarly poor paths, we both know the consequences and the dangers.
The boy has considered the military in the past, and I have seen it turn some real problems around with pure discipline and reality. Sounds like it has been a tremendous thing for G-Man's son mentioned above. It would have been a great thing for me, had I not thoroughly wrecked numerous needed body parts, like knees, before coming of age. I would have served proudly, learned to mature more directly and avoided a lot of tough lessons I don't want to see the kid have to learn the hard way... or hopefully live through.
But, I think G-Man is right. He'll learn, the easy ways or the hard ways... or he won't at all. Just hate to miss an opportunity to try to be a good influence!
Thank you both for your words and time.
DI,
I'm behind you in your perceptions.
As has been mentioned, athletic success (or huge size) early on does some oblique things to the ego. The other factor, and a huge one, is male adolescence: it is simply a weird time of adjustment and most
young fellas go through some bizarre combination of strutting, over-confidence, sallowness and rebellion against us old duffers. Perfectly natural. Yes, these kids reach out to others besides their parents; coaches, neighbors, teachers, etc
(in which category you seem to fall) and whether they appear to listen or absorb, they really do. One thing my wife, a trained psychologist, repeated to me while our own children were growing was that you do your best: bad folks can have good kids, good folks can have bad kids, sometimes no matter what one does has little effect. On the other hand, the fruit seldom falls far from the tree. No specific advice from me, DI, other than as we know,
the military has a way of 'maturing' young guys quickly and efficiently.
As far as strong discipline vs laxness, I've seen that break both ways, depending on the kid, and the
stage of development. So, I understand your concerns, and believe based on what you have outlined, your understanding and
solutions are fair and reasonable.
ET, if great people like yourself keep posting great items like that, I will be up all night saying thanks...
"(and you'll have to excuse my age when I use the word 'always')"
ROTFLMAO!!!! Beautiful! I need humor and levity!
They have taught him respect, ET, and with that, to know and understand shame when you don't retain respect. He's a tremendous young man and his parents have done an exceptional job when compared to most of today's... messes (that's as kind a word as I could muster). That's why I have held him up for years, to friends and family alike, as a model kid. And I heartily agree with your entire offering. Excellent. You're very wise well beyond your chronological age, Sir.
I would have a much lesser problem with his drinking if he had shown some level of sense with his circumstances, risks and lack of "getting home later" planning. The lies also bother me greatly. I have better tolerance for a lot of things before lies (and thievery).
My dad always told me to at least be honest with myself and with him. He always emphasized that I could always come to him with any problem, wrong, bad or evil. He might not be happy or perhaps even ashamed of what I had done, but he would always be there for me. That meant a great deal. I know my best friend has also been such a parent and told his son the same... So where the hell was the boy's thinking??
GRRRRRRR!!!!!
Presumptuous? Yeah, right! We've never personally exchanged a handshake, ET, but you surely have read enough of mine and vice versa to realize that your visits and words here are always welcome. Say anything you wish (you would anyway, right?). Just 'cause I like you doesn't mean we'll agree! Yeah.... but just like this time, we probably will, too. HA!
Thanks, Chief!
Well, BB, great to have your input! As usual, you make great points.
The "size" thing was something I addressed with him a few years ago (he didn't get this way overnight!). He had said something to the effect of "do you think I am big enough to pick this up?" while referring to something large and heavy that I don't recall now. We had an on-the-spot quiet, gentle and thoughtful discussion about how physical size has absolutely nothing to do with size of the person. I was stunned a few months later when he referred to our talk. Your wife is right (you wouldn't have married her otherwise!). I guess that reinforces why I hope that he's listening to his folks this time.
"So, I understand your concerns, and believe based on what you have outlined, your understanding and
solutions are fair and reasonable."
Coming from you that is quite a compliment. I'm sure you can imagine that is not often I am referred to by an unabashed liberal as anything akin to "fair and reasonable". HA! 
I hope the boy grows into the fine young man I know he can be. Thank you for your time, Sir!
Ouch. That was painful to read. I've seen similar similar scenarios, and none of them turned out well. In fact they all turned out to end with drug addiction.
Your military idea is a brilliant one. If the father is unable or unwilling to teach discipline, the military will. I only wish I had been so thoughtful as you in the past.
Yeah, Blogi, if I didn't care I would just write him off like I do a lot of his crony screw-ups. And I've seen plenty of these things go downhill with kids ending up crack and meth heads.
Unable or unwilling? I hate to say me thinks it's the latter. The kid still respects his dad's authority. His dad still has that for a little while longer. He just has to admit he sees the potential Big Picture and put his foot down. Maybe I'm being too harsh, but the stakes are very high. I love that boy and don't want to see him go down the crapper. That would hurt even more. Thanks Kevin.
"one of the things that haunts me is that he is not yet 18"
There's too much importance placed upon that magic age. It's not like a person suddenly at midnight on their eighteenth birthday is granted all the wisdom of adulthood. 18 is an artificial horizon imposed because it was easier to legislate than some subjective list of qualifications for majority.
”Unable or unwilling? I hate to say me thinks it's the latter. The kid still respects his dad's authority. His dad still has that for a little while longer. He just has to admit he sees the potential Big Picture and put his foot down. Maybe I'm being too harsh, but the stakes are very high. I love that boy and don't want to see him go down the crapper.”
I would ask however how is it that a 17 year old is gallivanting about without his parents knowing his whereabouts in his father's vehicle? There is such a thing as a lockable key box. Driving a vehicle is a privilege. Privileges are earned by trustworthiness and revoked by a lack thereof. My kids were always sneaking about trying to evade my oversight, but a large part of parenting requires one to be part private eye. To this day all of them are certain that I have a built in lie detector.
As ET has said, respect is certainly one of the most important cornerstones that a parent can instill in their children, but I would contend there are two additional cornerstones... They are honesty and personal responsibility. The problem is these days, how does one go about instilling anything in a child that has been infused with liberal offal for thirteen years of their life. The days of taking an unruly child out to the woodshed are unfortunately waning. Besides that, once a child is physically larger than you... the woodshed days are gone at any rate. By that time you've hopefully influenced them enough that it will eventually take.
No argument at all with your statements there, G-Man. What I meant by the "18" reference is that his father loses legal authority over him at that point.
As to your second paragraph... more solid agreement. That is precisely why I stated with regret, ”Unable or unwilling? I hate to say me thinks it's the latter." In this instance, he lied again. He was claiming to be going somewhere else, assumably a parentally approved destination, instead of the actual "Island Party" where he went.
Your "built in lie detector" is something that his parents have unfortunately not refined. I pointed long ago to the can of worms that lies can and do open up. I feel my warnings to his dad have been ignored for convenience... another disappointing occurence. And this fact points exactly to your other two noted items, honesty and personal responsibility. Your children are very lucky. I hope they fully realize that, if not yet then at least eventually.
And then we have that other glaring, intrusive and corrupting problem... public education. My neck is painful from nodding in agreement with you and then shaking side to side in disgust.
I too hope the essentials have been "planted" in the kid. It would seem such a loss to have him become just another one of society's youthful casualties.
Thanks again for your time, G.
wowza a new post and a powerful one at that!..Well, u know me DI..and I do believe his dad needs a serious wake up call..if he is not being willfully irresponsible...no disrespect intended but he is allowing his boy to slide into the Dark side...by all means..write him a letter...speak to him...but if he has reasons that u do not know of ..or that he himself may not know of.....for absolving himself of his parental responsibilities (at a time when they are needed most)....then theres not much u can do dear friend.....but Pray.
p.s. Hope I didnt cross over any lines I shouldnt have..
p.p.s. Perhaps u can have a talk with the boy as well?..
Thanks, Angel. I have been thinking hard about giving him a call, just to check the temperature of things. Sometimes he has asked me to talk with his son in the past. I would again and always have when asked.
Oh, and BTW... YOU, my dear, would have to tread far and heavily to walk over any lines at my place!
Best to you.
You are obviously a good, loving and caring person, DI. So many people would just say "it's none of my business. Not my kid, so why worry?" I admire you for caring for someone not your own.
As for this young man, his parents need to be schooled in tough love, although I think it's probably not going to happen. Tough love is hard but it's absolutely necessary. The boy now knows he can get away with a lot and only suffer a "talking to", which is no big deal to him. He's testing the waters and seeing how much he can get away with, which seems to be a lot. He should absolutely lose his driving privileges before he kills either himself or someone else.
I hope he grows up... real soon!
DI - That's a very moving story. I feel bad for this young man, and for all the rest of you. He is lucky to have you as an uncle, he very well might be in worse shape without you in his life. I sincerely hope he turns himself around before a real bad accident happens.
The only thing I can think of in addition to what you and some of the commenters have mentioned is to focus more on football.
Some people, including of course his coaches, should point out that the chance of a career in Football beyond High School is pretty much ZERO, ZIP, NADA without first going to college and getting competitive playing time and coaching guidance at the college level.
Even being a HS football coach would be rare for someone without at least some college, if not a full BS/BA degree.
Most NFL players graduate from college, and the few others that don't at least go some and play ball while they are there.
Be honest about how fun college can be too. As long as you get your work done, you can keep having fun at college.
With his ability he can probably get some scholarship money and other financial aid as well.
He may really want a career in football, but is he willing to work his butt off to give himself the best possible chance?
Here is some stuff I found about NFL players and college that he might find interesting and inspiring.
http://www.nflpa.org/Faqs/
NFL_Ho...opefulsFaq.aspx
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/
What_p...llege_graduates
http://answers.yahoo.com/
questio...13033935AASHYDT
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
prison is lots of fun
.
Hi Gayle!
To say "it's none of my business" is probably a very accurate statement and I still anticipate a visit from a specific reader who will likely mention that.
The thing is, I still feel there are things that could be done that aren't happening yet discipline-wise. I can handle personal insults or being told to keep my nose out... Hell, the kid is way worth that insignificant risk to me!!
The parents are both well schooled in tough love from their own childhoods. I think it is that the boy never really gave them much for problems until the last couple of years, thus they are reluctant to consider why the "old ways" of handling him no longer work. They love him dearly and want only the very best for him. I just think they are quite hesitant to see "today" clearly. I already told him that he should be extremely glad that I wasn't the one he called "Dad" the night the police called with this latest screw-up. I doubt that much deters him, though.
Like Angel said in a comment earlier... the remaining avenue I have is prayer and that is being driven for all I'm worth! Thanks so much for your kind words.
HI USpace and thanks for your interest! You seem to focus on the same essential need I see, too... discipline! In some form that interests him and gets the point across, that kid needs to see further than his next move of fancy! And yes, even football communicates that in numerous ways. He is also interested in law enforcement, which is rather odd since he seems to be bucking the establishment rather hard lately.
My fondest hope lies in him joining some branch of the military... he has considered this, too, specifically the Marines! I think that perhaps the parents have not been as enthusiastic here as they might be. I also understand that, but there is no painless path.
The links are excellent and I will find a method of gently passing them on to him... Thank you for your time and consideration, Sir.
Print this out. Give a copy to the boy and his parents. Stand right there whle it is read. See what their reactions are.
I think Dad, and Mom, lost their real opportunities to push this child back to the straight and narrow. Only time will tell if he has the personal character to repair the danage he's done to himself.
Jeesh, Benning... sorry to be so slow in finding your comment! Haloscan is being very slow to forward comments to my e-mail lately.
I had already thought of your suggestion and have printed it out and remain at the ready. I am holding off for the moment, as his parents are currently acting on his missteps and I will allow them room to do their job. It's a skinny line to try to walk between sticking your nose in and simply being a good friend/"uncle" to each of them. I am not ruling out showing them all of these comments and my thoughts and think I well may do just that regardless of how this all goes. Right now, though, and much to my relief, the parents seem to be cracking the whip fairly hard and that is just what I think is needed. Time will tell and I'll be watching closely. Thank you, too, for your input and thoughts!
Hey DI, you are very welcome. I'm sure all of us wish we could help out more. It seems like you are approaching this sensitive situation well. God bless you and your friends.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
never get involved
.
Interesting you would comment again now, USpace... it seems there has been an effective "crackdown" by the parents. I was also over there a few nights back picking up a load of wood for winter and the boy came out to help. I was intentionally very, very quiet in his direction... not normal for me. I heard about this the very next morning from his father in a phone call. I was direct and blunt in explaining myself (how unusual for me!... Heh...).
It seems the young man is aware and wants to have a "talk" with me. I am of course ready for that but included the footnote for him (through his dad) that it better not be a littany of paper excuses and the PC fluff that he thinks I want to hear. I want to see some stark changes from the direction we have been heading, some overdue admissions of fault and apologies... to Mom and Dad... not me.
So we shall see, eh?
Take good care, USpace!
Hi DI,
Just wondering if there has been any positive news regarding this? It is a sad situation, hope the boy is making changes. You're a good friend and I hope they realize it.
Hi Tammi. Changes are occuring, although I don't know what is to come. I guess we never do. I will be watching to see if words become deeds. Thanks for your kind words. Take care.
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