The Sci Fi Catholic Yak Module
I know nothing about this subject, but I would in the future like to read some of your writing.
I know about movies and their copyrights, public domain, etc, but I don't think the same thing applies to written work.
Anyway, I hope the lawyers don't go after you either way.
I'm in two minds. Yes, it's illegal. And yes, fanfiction can go way beyond what an author or other creator intended.
On the other hand, how can you stop it? People have been writing fanfiction ever since there was writing to write fanfiction about. I've half-seriously argued that Dante is writing "Aeneid" fanfiction in the "Divine Comedy", and people wrote follow-ups to all kinds of stuff in the Middle Ages - look at Chaucer's version of "The Romance of the Rose", for instance. Everyone has scribbled some kind of story based on their favourite novel/film/tv show; how many writers have started out copying, for example, Conan Doyle or Lovecraft or Bradbury because they wanted to be Just Like Them?
There is no doubt that a lot of fanfiction is really bad, but on the other hand, there is some fanfiction out there that is even better than the Official Spin-Off Tie-In Churned Out For A Quick Buck By Random Hack Novelisation of the Movie Adaptation of the Original TV Series.
And of course, the obligatory attempting to fill in the plot holes when the Powers That Be have lightly skipped over a completely implausible not to mention impossible occurrence...
I would agree that trying to make money as a commercial venture out of other people's copyright characters and situations is wrong. I think that if an author or creator expresses a specific opinion as to how they don't want their characters used, that should be honoured. Of course, it's not going to stop people writing stories where the characters are put into those situations, but the fanwriters will have to go back to the old-fashioned "hide it under the mattress or in the bottom drawer".
I do understand why companies want to keep control of their properties, but in 99% of cases, no-one is making money out of fanfiction, especially nowadays when it's put up for free, gratis and for nothing on the Internet instead of only being available in limited runs of print zines that very few could get hold of and which had to be paid for. And it was fanfiction and fan activity which kept the interest in fandoms going for decades when the companies had no interest in the property, that paved the way for the movies, novels, new tv series - "Star Trek" is the major example of this.
Yes, I've read one too many Legomances by fourteen year old girls. But I've also read some damn fine stories that were more respectful of the characters, plots, universe, and canon of the fandom (from Sherlock Holmes to the Transformers) also.
Legomance has now officially entered my working vocabulary. Thanks, Fuinseoig!
Now I'm still confused. Is Rebecca Tushnet flat out wrong when she says fan fiction is fair use if noncommercial?
Well, I know passing little about the relevant laws, but I *am* pretty sure that no one has ever gone to court over internet fanfic; and as there's been no legal precedent, in a certain sense the jury's still out.
Personally, I've always considered it to be akin to fansubs of unlicensed anime: technically illegal, but in most cases it benefits the copyright holders, making it morally if not legally okay.
Thanks for the input, Rhinemouse. Love the Newsboys Under the Big Top reference in your blog's tagline, by the way.
Deej, I am honored that you would link to my humble little post on fanfic and my most recent fanfic piece. I'm not sure what the law is regarding fanfic, but my gut feeling is, "No harm, no foul." I write fanfic for fun, not to make money. I am not trying to profit by the use of someone else's licensed and copyrighted characters, and I'm not trying to deprive anyone of any income to which they might be legally entitled through the use of those characters. If I receive cease and desist orders from Paramount (Star Trek), Lucasfilm, DC Comics or Advance Magazine Publishers (The Shadow), I will, of course, take down my fanfic, but I consider such an event highly unlikely. Who's gonna sic a battalion of highly trained intellectual property and copyright lawyers on li'l ol' me?
That said, I would respect the wishes of any author who expressly asked that fans not create fanfic, and there are certain authors for which I would refrain from creating fanfic out of respect and affection for their work. Examples of the first kind of author would be Anne McCaffrey or J.D. Robb, and examples of the second kind would be J. R. R. Tolkien or Gregg Taylor of Decoder Ring Theatre. I think Lord of the Rings is such an awesome and majestic work of imagination that any fanfic I wrote in that same universe would look like a hopeless pile of crap next to it. I love Gregg Taylor's Red Panda Adventures podcasts, but I know that he is creating them mainly as a labor of love and hoping one day to publish a Red Panda pulp novel. Therefore I think it would be highly unethical of me to distribute Red Panda fanfic when the creator of the character is still trying to expand the audience for his creation.
Having pontificated far too much already, I will shut up now.
Fan Fiction has been with us since the beginning. The Aeneid itself is fan fiction, taking a minor character of the Illiad and buidling its own epic around it (borrowing from the Odyssey, making it more poignant that while Odysseus had a home to go to, Aeneas had to create it first).
I suspect that the main reason why fan fiction is allowed is that it is non-profit. You spend your own money to get the stuff in print, and rarely makeup the costs. If they sued you for the profits, they might end up with your debts. Also, those who read them are the ones who already read the original ones - and paid for them, so no harm is done.
I know that. I myself authored a 17 volume continuation of "Dark Shadows".
The original one.
Wow. I think you're the first person to get that reference. I'm impressed.
As a dabbler in scifi/fantasy there are particular stories or story that I enjoy. The particular author or creator may be sick to death of them, or may not have the desire or inclination to pursue it further. As was mentioned before, Star Trek and STar Wars are good examples. Especially in those universes there is a wealth of possibilities to spin of ideas. I would think that there would be some kind of blanket like in Star Trek "created by Gene Roddenbury" that does give him credit for the original creation, and I'm sure there's some kind of copyright stuff to have to go through to use the name Star Trek. And if the work is being done for profit, I'm sure that there's probably someting in place to ensure that the original creators goet "a piece of the action", so to speak. But if we put severe limits and restrictions on folks then we don't have wonderful spin-offs like Deep Space Nine which went way beyond the original Star Trek. And I really don't care who writes it--I like reading the stories, whether they be professional or third-grade amateur. And I would dearly love to read spin-offs of Middle Earth. I don't really expect anyone to be able to write like Tolkein, so go ahead and let other write, that's an incredible world just ITCHING for more exploration!!
There's the added complication that someone reading Niall Mor's "Red Panda" fanfiction might then be motivated to seek out the original, and that the fanfiction could help create the market for the book 
In general, I think the law might be coming donw on the side of copyright infringement - certainly the owners of the property would be very much against it, and if you were trying to use your "Bone" fanfiction to gain money or repute for your own works, you'd be in trouble.
That being said, I think it's up to your conscience, D.G.D. Has the author (not the big publishing company) expressed any views about fanfiction? If he said "No, I don't want it", then I'd be inclined to keep it hidden under the mattress and not publish any.
If he hasn't expressed an opinion, then the next question is: do you think you're doing anything that might be contrary to how he would wish the characters to be protrayed?
If not, then what harm? Put it up and tell us all about it!
Most fanfiction is done as a labour of love - even the really bad stuff. And I've had the experience of reading fanfiction first, then deciding "Hey, I think I like this fandom - I'll get the comics/manga/whatever" afterwards.
Really, I think those are the two biggies - are you doing something that is totally against what the original author/creator might decide is appropriate, and are you trying to make money out of it?
Wow. I think you're the first person to get that reference. I'm impressed.
I saw that movie in high school with my youth group. One bit of dialogue can still make me laugh:
"Now I'll give a hint to you Australian boys: it rhymes with ointment."
"Excoitment?"
But about the fan fiction, here's my view: I realize there's a fireball's chance in Cocytus that anything I write and post noncommercially could in any way harm the sales of an established author, or even an unestablished one, for that matter. Unless I'm cutting large chunks out of his work and posting them for free (which isn't fan fiction), I'm not in any tangible sense stealing his work or preventing his being paid for his work. If anything, I'm giving him free publicity--probably not the most effective form of free publicity, since the people who read fan fiction are usually fans themselves, but free publicity nonetheless.
At the same time, I realize that we cannot pick and choose the laws that we decide to follow. We have a duty to the civil authority unless that civil authority makes laws at variance with a higher authority. I do not believe I can legitimately consider my loyalty to my favorite novels and comics a higher loyalty than my loyalty to the state and its laws; therefore, if the state tells me I cannot write my own stories based on those books and comics and make them publicly available, I think it is my duty to acquiesce, even if I disagree with the principle.
In other words, to boil that down, if fan fiction is indeed illegal, and a Christian is aware that it is illegal yet posts fan fiction anyway, he would be guilty of sin. It's probably not theft exactly, since as I already stated, no harm to the original author, material or otherwise, exists. It's probably more akin to, say, a deliberate yet low-risk traffic violation.
But venial sins open us to mortal sins. If someone decides he is willing to break the law in writing fan fiction, he may over time decide he is willing to break the law in, say, illegally downloading music, which is real theft and is therefore potentially mortal.
I just produced a brief essay on whether writing fan fiction is a mortal or venial sin. My life as a Sci Fi Catholic has reached its apex.
Has the author (not the big publishing company) expressed any views about fanfiction? If he said "No, I don't want it", then I'd be inclined to keep it hidden under the mattress and not publish any.
One of the interesting things about Bone is that there is no big publishing company. Smith self-published the comic. Even now that Scholastic is producing the colored versions and it's selling millions, he apparently retains all the rights.
As to the issue of what he thinks of the matter, I've never seen an opinion of his on the subject, but he really crawled his way up from the bottom with this comic, and he's only been working on it since, like, kindergarten. I know he's quite protective of his work, for good reason.
I wouldn't be surprised, therefore, if he had a low view of fan fiction. However, he also has a reputation for liberality and magnanimity, and he previously on one occasion gave a free pass to an acid jazz band that inadvertently violated his copyright by using a graffiti image of Phoney Bone on the cover of an album.
DGD said: "I just produced a brief essay on whether writing fan fiction is a mortal or venial sin. My life as a Sci Fi Catholic has reached its apex."
I applaud you for your acument! But actually, Deej, your essay was on the mortality or veniality of posting the fanfiction, not of writing it; and the apex would be, not merely to opine about it, but to demonstrate on the basis of at least three passages of Scripture and two Church Fathers exactly which mortal or venial sin is involved, and in what degree; and what parts of the appetite are in disorder thereby; and what precise graces, penances, and restitutions would be appropriate according to divine justice.
Some of us really nerdy Catholic geeks think fanscholastics is even more satisfying than fanfiction...
Hmmm - well, does the sinfulness of fanfiction rely upon the legality? We've got a couple of things to clarify first: (1) fanfiction for tv shows, movies, etc. that are old fandoms and not currently popular or being made (2) fanfiction about characters such as "Bone" that are currently being published by authors who hold the rights (3) the legality or otherwise of making fanfiction available to a wide audience - I don't think any of us are that worried about the writing of fanfiction as such, or do you really wish to make the argument that the writing as well as the publishing is sinful?
People who have written fanfiction tend to share it with friends and fellow-fans. Now, in the days when fanfiction was only available in self-published magazines for which a price was charged, I think that there would have been more of a problem, as there definitely was an unlicenced commercial transaction going on there.
Ironically, the easier dissemination of free fanfiction to a much greater number of people by means of the Internet has probably made authors and rights-holders much more aware and much more likely to take action.
Suppose you showed your "Bone" fanfiction to a couple of friends by giving them a printout? Is that illegal/sinful? Suppose you shared it with them via email? Now suppose you and they had a Yahoo! Group for "Bone" fans, where the comics were discussed and fanfiction was shared? Can only be accessed by members only? How about on your blog? Then what about putting it up on a site such as Fanfiction.Net?
None of these are for profit - does the legality get less legal or more illegal the wider the circle of people can view the story? How about the sinfulness?
I don't know if a case has been taken yet, and so long as one has not, then the legal status is murky. If it is permissible, however, for parodic/humorous versions to be printed for profit (I'm thinking of the "Bored of the Rings" parody and the "Barry Trotter" ones), then it may be legally permissible to share fanfiction. I haven't seen any moves to make sites such as Fanfiction.Net cease and desist, so maybe no-one is inclined to make a move just yet on the grounds that it may not be all that legally clear-cut, unlike the moves made to shut down Napster and the like.
Myself, I don't think it's stealing (since I am not buying something pirated like a bootleg tape or stripped copy of a book, or otherwise depriving the author of income by reading the stories), so it doesn't bother me - but if it's stealing as far as you're concerned, and it really is disturbing your conscience, then of course don't do it, regardless of grey legal areas.
On a tangent, what is your take on authorised sequels?
I'm thinking of the publishing companies that commissioned follow-ups to "Gone With The Wind" and Jane Austen novels. Do you think that Margaret Mitchell would have approved of someone writing a sequel to her novel? And yet it was perfectly legal.
What about Jean Rhys's "The Wide Sargasso Sea"? That to me is a perfect example of fanfiction, since it takes a character from "Jane Eyre" - the mad Mrs. Rochester - and examines her life before ever she married Mr. Rochester and came to England. It must have been legally permissible, since the novel was permitted to be sold.
So if out-of-copyright characters (and I'm thinking of all the Sherlock Holmes pastiches and parodies that are published, from straight mystery stories to ones like Esther Friesner's fantasy novel about a Holmes/Watson pairing in an AU magic-using Victorian England) are fair game for commerical use, then the question of legality is about copyright and making money out of them.
Most fanfiction I've read online has the disclaimer that "So-and-so owns these characters", which is only a legal figleaf, but does establish the copyright holder. Now, unless you get someone as stupid as that person who tried to sell her fanfiction on Amazon, there is no question of making money out of it. I'd like to see some kind of legal opinion, definitely, but I don't see it as venially sinful - unless we're talking about some of the prose, or plots, or OOCness, which is a different matter
the legal status is murky
Yes, you're right. It is indeed murky, and as far as I know, no laws really cover every situation you mentioned. The only way to solve questions like these is probably to have a lawsuit and set some kind of precedent. Perhaps this is why one lawyer can say it appears to be illegal and another can say it appears to be fair use.
As for my little mini-essay, remember I said "if fan fiction is indeed illegal." Everything following is dependent on that if. And I agree with you that it isn't stealing because no loss can be calculated.
And that was actually me on the last comment. I didn't notice that Lucky was still signed in.
Deej--
Where is the essay?? I can't seem to locate it.
Essay is in the comments up above.
Deej, your essay was on the mortality or veniality of posting the fanfiction
You are correct, Archdeacon. And you are right about what would really constitute a thorough examination of the subject. I can't imagine anything sinful about merely writng fan fiction, so I wouldn't touch that topic anyway.
As for the necessary restitution according to divine justice in regards to sin, I'm guessing Jesus on a cross might do the trick. Just a guess. (Yes, I know what you meant, but still....)
As for authorized sequels, my opinion (as with my opinion on fan fiction) is that you can't really harm an original work by writing derivative works. You can, however, disrespect it. Exactly what constitutes disrespect, and whether or not the original work deserves disrespect, would have to be addressed on an individual basis, and it is a matter that I think would definitely admit of legitimate differences of opinion.
Hi! Thanks for the link. You might want to check out Rebecca's (...my sister, in case people were wondering) law review article on fanfiction and fair use, which is here:
http://www.tushnet.com/legalfictions.pdf
I, uh, haven't read it. But I'm sure it's great!
Apologies in advance for the length of this comment. A couple notes, not in any way decisive (and DEFINITELY not representing my sister's view!!! I haven't discussed any of this with her) but perhaps interesting:
1. Fanfiction was the main reason I got into mainstream superhero comics and Harry Potter novels (in this case, fanfiction was the ONLY reason, I'm pretty sure!), among others. I have spent several hundred dollars I really shouldn't've spared on corporate properties as an indirect, but obvious, result of fanfiction. (There's an implicit anti-capitalist critique of fanfiction right there, but you won't find me making it--I'm too busy reading about the Further Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix!)
2. I don't think "The authors wouldn't mind me writing this" is a good argument. A lot of the best fanfiction specifically responds to perceived _problems_ in the source text: To take an example near and dear to my heart, JK Rowling's world often skimps on forgiveness and reconciliation. A lot of the Potter fanfiction I like focuses on that issue and explores it. If Rowling wouldn't like those stories much... that's kind of the point.
"The Wind Done Gone" does precisely this, of course. How much does the denigration of fanfiction rely on the acceptance of mainstream, culturally-promoted values? Why should your fiction, your view of the world, be more protected solely because you managed to attain corporate sponsorship?
3. This is MUCH, MUCH more speculative than the previous points, but I figured it might be worth saying: There are laws which affirmatively work against human connection and flourishing. If undergraduates from my college debating society visit my apartment and I offer them beer, I don't confess it as a sin even if they're all under 21, in large part because I believe the drinking age is affirmatively harmful. And creating stories based on others' stories is a human impulse _at least_ as deep-rooted, unstoppable, and good as creating fellowship through mildly intoxicating beverages! Does that change the assessment of whether a Catholic can post fanfiction on the Internet? I think it should, but I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise.
(FWIW, I stopped smoking pot solely because when I became Catholic illegal behaviors, however harmless, became a lot more fraught--but honestly, teenage drinking and fanfiction are just _normal human life_, parts of human flourishing throughout history, and I can't understand banning them.)
Thanks again--this is a pretty awesome discussion.
Thanks, Eve. I just posted a link to your sister's article. I've got to run off now, but I may come back and beef up that post later with a few quotes or something. It's a great article and you should read it!
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