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The dispensationists suffer from Clintonism syndrome. They can only say "it depends on what "soon" means".
Larry |
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01.28.04 - 3:08 pm | #
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I never thought I'd find myself defending Hal Lindsey on anything, but... It is true that many of the liberal social-gospel Protestants at the turn of the past century were postmils and so, with that clarification (that he was speaking about a certain group of postmils), what he said would be accurate.
Of course, Lindsey's predictions have ultimately ended up discrediting him more than he could discredit anyone else.
Evan Donovan |
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01.28.04 - 8:55 pm | #
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"2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived."
"Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
There's no indication in Scripture that things would ever get better, and are replete with warnings that in the last days, are greatest enemies will be apostasy and false representations of Christianity. Many will come in the name of Jesus, saying he is LORD, and shall deceive MANY. It is part of the great falling away that will eventually give way to that "man of perdition."
I hate it when the premil people resort to making wild guesses about the end times when the Bible specifically admonishes them not to do so:
"Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."
We are exhorted only to watch and be ready at his coming.
Mac Swift |
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01.29.04 - 11:51 am | #
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Mac, the verses you quoted do not refer to the end times, but are contemporary.
The bible is full of promises that God will be worshipped by people of all nations and that his enemies will be utterly subdued (e.g., Ps. 110). Since that has not happened yet, this will necessarily get better so that those prophecies are realized.
To think otherwise is to think the Great Commission was a fool's errand.
David Heddle |
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01.29.04 - 4:06 pm | #
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The first verse is rather to the point, it just indicates how mankind will simply get progessivel worse as we draw near the end. I dont see how the second could be contemporary, nor do I think that the reign of Christ will come through some slow glacial progressive move towards endgame. Instead I'm seeing shades of catholicism in your statement (the idea of the kingdom of heaven being spread on earth prior to Christ's arrival. But this reveals the ecumenical movement for what it is, an eventual coming together of the world's religions and governments under one umbrella, with the only dissenters being the Jews and the "radical" Christians. This umbrella would be controlled by the last and final Antichrist, the son of perdition who by peace would destroy many, and who would cause craft to prosper (the occult). During his reign, 3/4s of the earth's population would be wiped out as a result of God's wrath and judgment. This doesn't sound like better times for me.
Mac Swift |
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01.30.04 - 1:07 pm | #
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The second verse you quoted:
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
Refers not to the end of time but the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 (in my and many other's opinion)
David Heddle |
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01.30.04 - 2:17 pm | #
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I think many people could fire off a list of calamities since 70 AD that would make the destruction of Jerusalem look like a church picnic. That much shold be a given.
But in addition, Christ also states:
"Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
None of these things have happened yet. I suppose though the reasoning is that "immediately" is a loosely defined term here, suggesting that it could cover anytime between then and oh, 50,000 years from now. 
Mac Swift |
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01.30.04 - 3:12 pm | #
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Not true, Mac, except perhaps the holocaust on a "total killed" basis. There were over a million Jews killed and another million enslaved. There was a siege that resulted iv civil war and cannibalism. And that is not even touching upon the important part: the redemptive significance.
"Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
This happened too. Christ came in judgment upon the Jews who crucified Him, as per their request (Matt. 27:24-25). The language is apocalyptic and poetic, not literal, similar to the description of the destruction of Babylon:
9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine. (Isa. 13:9-10) and Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place, (Isa. 9:13).
And Bozrah
3 Also their slain shall be thrown out; Their stench shall rise from their corpses, And the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree. (Isa. 34:3-4).
In neither case, surely in the past, has there been any record of literal astronomical calamities.
David Heddle |
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01.30.04 - 3:42 pm | #
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