Perhaps one might break out the different kinds of "love" that is separated in Greek language but translated over as one word -love- in the English. We get into some trouble when we lump the different kinds of love into one term.

You have the unconditional love sort of like what parents have for their children. No matter what the child does to anger the parent for that day, the parent still loves that child. I think the term is agape.

You have the brotherly love sort of like what you feel for friends. I think the term is phileo (where we get Philedelphia the city of brotherly love).

Then you have the spousal love - the passionate love you feel for a spouse. I think the term is eros.
Ed Yong | 02.06.04 - 10:17 am | #

Heretic!

(Just doing my part to fill in what was missing! *wink*)
Karl Thienes | Homepage | 02.06.04 - 11:33 am | #

I think "I don't know" was a pretty good answer to what was probably the wrong question. The right question is probably, will God have mercy on me? And the answer is Romans 9:19, God will have mercy on whom he wants and will harden whom he wants.

You are a brave man to be such a lightning rod.

Oh, and by the way, I still love you.
Larry | Homepage | 02.06.04 - 12:01 pm | #

I followed the thread at Mark Shea's blog, and just wanted to say thanks for the tremendous effort that you put into the discussion.

Random
A Random Catholic | 02.06.04 - 5:43 pm | #

Does God love you? How do you know that Christ died for you?
Matt Oskvarek | 02.06.04 - 7:15 pm | #

I echo Larry's comment about your bravery in being a lightning rod. The saddest part of the whole exchange is the lack of assurance on the part of the Catholics. Like you, I was baptized and raised in the Catholic church and can identify with the uncertain hope that pervades the Catholic answers. It is a tragic fate to die without knowing Christ! As far as the answer to the question how we know that we are saved, I would simply point to 1 John 5:13. I know I am saved because God said I am. If anyone else will believe on God's grace and mercy, that verse applies to them as well.

Tom N
Tom Neagle | 02.07.04 - 7:19 pm | #

Don't feel bad Dave, I still love you too!

In a completely non-sexu@l way of course. :-D
Mac Swift | Homepage | 02.07.04 - 9:26 pm | #

It is a tragic fate to die without knowing Christ!

You really ought to think twice before asserting such statements based soley on your own presumption and/or uncertain exegesis. Or have you become God so as to know that all Catholics for the last 2000 years have died without knowing and more importantly loving Christ?
larry | 02.08.04 - 11:22 am | #

And how do you truly know that you are not one of the reprobate? Matthew 7:21-23
larry | 02.08.04 - 11:43 am | #

Not trying to start an argument, but as Christians (if, as a Catholic, you admit me the title) we have more important things to do in our increasingly decadent society (preaching and living the Gospel in word and deed) than pronouncing judgement on which one/group of us is saved or not. Just my two cents. Peace to all.
larry | 02.08.04 - 12:26 pm | #

Do we all remember an old kids' song? Jesus love me this I know, for the Bible tells me so...

God loves us even if we haven't loved Him.
"In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us." —1 John 4:10

How do we receive God's Love? God's Love is a gift that we all receive when we are born again. If you have asked Jesus into your heart as your Savior, then not only Jesus is in your heart, His Love is there also. John 17:26 validates this: "And I have declared...that the Love wherewith Thou [Father] hast loved Me [Jesus] may be in them, and I in them."

In our haste to be "like Jesus," many of us have forgotten the first basic step of the Christian life, which is to know the extent and the depth of God's Love for us personally. If we really knew how much God loves us, there would never be any reason to fear what He might allow into our lives. We would just have the confidence and the trust to continually abandon our lives into His care, and know that He will take care of us no matter what occurs.

"When thou passest through the waters [trouble], I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee; when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee. For I am the Lord thy God...[You are] precious in My sight and...I have loved thee." (Isaiah 43:2-4)

(1 John 4:7-10 NKJV) Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. {8} He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. {9} In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. {10} In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

(John 3:16-17 NKJV) "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. {17} "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

(Romans 5:8 NKJV) But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Demonstrate Christian love to each other. Don't let debates get out of hand.
Ed Yong | 02.09.04 - 1:29 pm | #

David, why do you waste your time in this manner? Seriously. These people obviously weren't going to give you a hearing. They're only fighting their own personal bete noires.
Evan Donovan | Homepage | 02.10.04 - 1:00 am | #

I don't consider it a waste of time--only apparently so.
David Heddle | Homepage | 02.10.04 - 9:29 am | #

What is a 'bete noires,' and how does one fight it?
Anonymous | 02.10.04 - 5:34 pm | #

Bete´ noire´
Noun 1. bete noire - a detested person; "he is an anathema to me"
anathema
disagreeable person, unpleasant person - a person who is not pleasant or agreeable

We are suppose to love them, too.
Ed Yong | 02.10.04 - 6:15 pm | #

Larry, figuring out which group is saved or not will impact whether we admit anyone the title of Christian, correct? Or do you believe in unsaved Christians?

My view is that you may be saved, and you may not. I don't know you, and even then I couldn't know for sure. What I do know is that merely belonging to the Roman Catholic church (or any Protestant church) definitely will not save you. I don't condemn you for being RC, but salvation is found in Christ, not in an organization. As Hebrews teaches, His one sacrifice brings salvation.
Randy Brandt | Homepage | 02.11.04 - 2:30 pm | #

Interesting statistic from a news article since we moving away from the original topic of Christian love:

The variety of religious beliefs in the United States surpasses the nation’s multitude of ethnicities, nationalities, and races, making religion another source of diversity rather than a unifying force. This is true even though the vast majority of Americans—83 percent—identify themselves as Christian. One-third of these self-identified Christians are unaffiliated with any church. Moreover, practicing Christians belong to a wide variety of churches that differ on theology, organization, programs, and policies. The largest number of Christians in the United States belong to one of the many Protestant denominations—groups that vary widely in their beliefs and practices. Roman Catholics constitute the next largest group of American Christians, followed by the Eastern Orthodox.

My $0.02, people can make their claim to being Christian. It's not up to us to determine whether or not a person other than ourself is saved. It is between the person and God.

Our duty is to witness and share the Gospel to ensure the person knows the road to salvation (Jesus). The choice is up to the person, not ours.

Christian definition 1: a follower of Jesus Christ (not necessarily a saved person and a definition that the news article takes)

Christian definition 2: born again beliver of Jesus Christ (most of us inside the Christian community use this definition).
Ed Yong | 02.11.04 - 5:55 pm | #

Question for the Calvinist: If I am commanded to love my neighbor (as myself) am I loving someone who God may be hating?
Matt | 02.11.04 - 6:06 pm | #

Yes.

Why should that be wrong? We are not to judge others or take vengeance, because that rightly belongs to the Lord. We are to love others, show mercy, and forgive; it is up to God whether He will as well.

(I'm sure that someone will correct me if I have spoken poorly).
Alexander Scott | 02.11.04 - 6:21 pm | #

Hello, Alexander. I am not saying that is wrong. I was just wondering about the logic of it. Thanks for your response.

Would you say that God also loves those other people?
Matt | 02.11.04 - 8:10 pm | #

To be honest, I don't know if God loves my neighbors in the same way that I am expected to love them. I would say that "love" means desiring the good of the other. God has clearly not desired the good of many non-Christians; he hardens their heart, so that they proceed deeper into their own sin. We do know that Gow works for the good of those who love Him and have been called for His purposes.

So, based on my understanding of love, God loves some and not others. You might have some other definition of love that could include everyone, but I would need to be convinced that it is a meaningful definition.
Alexander Scott | 02.13.04 - 10:48 am | #

Quoting Craig Blomberg quoting F.F Bruce: "in semitic language and thought, 'hate' had a broader range of meanings than it does in English, including the sense of 'leaving aside', 'renunciation', or 'abandonment'." And, quoting G.B. Caird, "the semitic way of saying 'I prefer this to that' is 'I like this and hate that" (ref Blomberg, "The Historical Reliability of the Gospels", pg 121.)

On this understanding, I don't see any contradiction between the propositions that God loves all men, and yet 'hates' some in choosing not to save them.
Jim Price | 02.13.04 - 12:04 pm | #

Interesting about the different types of "hate" that get lumped into one word in English, sort of like the different types of "love" getting lumped into one word in English.

I suppose if people get in trouble over the lumping of the "love" in one English word, people can get in trouble over the lumping of the "hate" in one English word, too.
Ed Yong | 02.13.04 - 12:43 pm | #

I haven't read your blog in a while, and I thought I would, and I've notice that you haven't laid off the crack.
Josh S | 02.13.04 - 7:44 pm | #

Well, the Bible does say that God is love (1 John 4). That is his nature, not hatred. God reprobates a person when they reject his love and grace. He doesn't reprobate anyone for "his own good pleasure" as some would say. That is not the real God.

Thank you for responses,
Matt
Matt | 02.14.04 - 3:38 pm | #

In a much earlier commentr, Larry asked how I know I am not one of the reprobate (Matt 7:21-23).

The answer is very simple. I know my Father the same way that any child knows his or her parents. Through our relationship as Father and son (Eph. 1:5)

Tom N
Tom N | 02.15.04 - 7:37 pm | #

And you know you have this relationship because?
Josh S | 02.16.04 - 12:46 pm | #

Josh, we must have experiencial knowledge and fellowship with God through His Spirit. I know that much of the experiences with God are discounted and discouraged, but the God of the Bible is very personal and is Spirit.

It is an objective reality that must be subjectively experienced, imo.

Matt
Anonymous | 02.17.04 - 1:58 pm | #